H.B. 22 Vintage Vehicle Amendments: transcript

You, Mr. Chair. So I am looking around the room. I don't remember if everybody was on the committee for interim, but just in case you warned, or in case a member of the public that warn, I wanna explain where this bill came from and how it got here. So, uh, as part of our normal process during the interim, uh, tax commission came and pointed out several things in the code that were causing them grief or headaches, or that they viewed as problematic. One of them was one that we have probably talked about for three, four years in a row, which is the, uh, cheating associated with the vintage vehicle program. So, uh, you've probably all heard from people, Hey, my neighbor has a car that has the vintage vehicle plate, but it's really not a vintage vehicle. We know they're cheating. Uh, and so we talked to the tax commissions, like, how do we solve the problem? Well, what is the problem, first of all, and how do we solve it? So why are they cheating? What do we need to do to address the cheating? And how does this work? So, uh, the reason why they're cheating is that if you get the, if you can be approved as a vintage vehicle, you get several benefits. One is you get lifetime registration, you pay a registration once, and you never have to pay registration fee again. So that's pretty big benefit. The second one is, is that you don't have to take, pass an admissions test, even if you're otherwise required to pass an admissions test, you don't have to pass one, you get free pass on admissions test. And the third one is, is that you can get a black license plate for free. So in looking at those, um, incentives for people to cheat, uh, it turns out that the local health departments approached me and said, you know what? We have a, a problem with the emissions part of this anyway. And I said, well, tell me what the issue is. Um, so if you have a pre 1996 vehicle and others, but I'll just use that as a simplification, it does not have an OBD two port on it, O-B-D-O-B-D two port on it. And so it can't be tested using the current modern equipment, which has been around since 1996, last 30 years. That's standard equipment. We, we have to test it using retrofit technology, which is called the, the, the two speed test, or the treadmill test, or whatever you want to call it. And so we have to have equipment that is more expensive for a decreasing number of cars. 'cause the number of cars that are pre 1996 is just shrinking every year. Every year. They're fewer of them. They're being taken off the road. And maintaining that equipment for in your, in these counties is increasing the cost over a smaller number of cars. They're getting ready soon to start replacing that equipment. And they want to be able to replace equipment with just the simple equipment, which is just OBT two. And the only way of doing that is to exempt all vehicles, whether you're vintage or not. And by the way, vintage also meant that it was a collector car, and it was only supposed to be shown in shows and stuff like that. And that was the cheating, right? People were not registering collector cars, they were registering just whatever old truck. Like I had a, I would've done, it wasn't, anyway, I had a 1995 dodge pickup truck. I drove it about 500 miles a year. I probably would've registered as, as a VIN vintage vehicle if I could have, but I don't have it anymore, but whatever. So the solution that's in this bill, as you can see in the handout, um, takes care of the problem by getting rid of the vintage vehicle program in its entirety and replacing it with a new designation, which is classic vehicle, which really only has one benefit. It just has the benefit of the lifetime registration. So, and there are strict requirements on what it means to be a classic vehicle. Um, but the only benefit that you get is that you can register, you pay that registration fee once and it's for forever. Um, those are, those must be collector cars. They cannot be driven more than 1500 miles on the road. There are some other requirements in there to meet that definition, but really that's, that's what we are, we're essentially doing here in the process. We are also, um, cleaning up some of the code related to replica vehicles, which I didn't know about, but now I do. And there is another vehicle in here, I believe it's called Custom Vehicles. Uh, and so that's also getting cleaned up along the way. So at the end of the day, what does the bill do? It eliminates the vintage vehicle program. It replaces it with a classic car or classic vehicle program. And the only advantage to being a classic car is that you pay a one time registration fee, and you do not have to pay that upon renewal. However, you do have to renew your registration every year. So there are other taxes and fees that you have to pay, such as the fee in lieu of property tax, et cetera, et cetera. You just don't have to pay the registration fee. So those cards do have to be registered every year, uh, into perpetuity, but they only pay the registration fee once. And so in a pretty big nutshell, that's, that's what sub two will do based on our pro our discussion over the interim. I'm happy to take questions. And, and those, um, those vehicles that already have that designation, you just grandfather those in, right? So the, well, if they are vintage vehicles and they meet the criteria for classic, they can just be automatically transferred over. So, but if they don't meet the criteria, and there's really no real reason, because they already have the lifetime registration, so they are getting the, the only benefit that is associated with it. So they could be grandfathered as vintage vehicles, but they don't need to be exempted from emissions because emissions isn't required for them anymore. It's not required for anybody who doesn't have an OBD two port.

Yes. So the classic vehicle, I'm looking here to see if the definition of a classic vehicle, uh, It's on the first page of the model. It's what? First page at the bottom? We go. Classic. Oh, it's in purple. Even Classic vehicle means a motor vehicle or motorcycle with a model year of 1982 or older that is driven fewer than 1500 miles per calendar year, or a classic travel trailer. So we've taken the guesswork out of it for the tax commission. It's pretty straightforward. It's just the age of the vehicle and it's driven fewer than 1500 miles and they can get the classic designation. And the only benefit from that designation is the lifetime registration fee. Okay. Did you want me to do the other ones? Uh,

So replica vehicle, uh, so none of you're old enough to remember, but back in the seventies there were people who were creating, uh, rat rods. It's rat rods. So they're, they're designed to look like a model T. So they have a model T coop body, and they have, but they have this big, you know, Adams family engine in the front with the pipe sticking out the side, and they're really tiny wheels and all that stuff. Uh, so they're designed to look like a model t that's just been modified, but they're really brand new construction. So we have adjusted the definition of what a replica vehicle is, so that, that's just easier for the tax tax commission to interpret. And then I believe the other one that we cleaned up is called a, uh, can't remember what it's called, but there's, there's another one that's the same sort of problem. And that one is a car that is, was built in an olden times, but is now not Mac, basically that car anymore, that has been modified to be kind of a souped up, modernized version of that one. And so the tax commission now just asked us to clean up the language describing those as well.

I think that's correct. And there were even cartoons about that.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Uh, make aul, is there a substitute to be adopted? Second substitute? I'd make a motion that we adopt the second substitute of HP 22 Vintage Vehicle Amendments. Uh, that motion is in order.

Yeah, just so everybody, in case you were missing, substitute one sub I sent out substitute one yesterday, which created this non B two accommodation. Um, substitute two just makes that even easier on the counties. So they asked for it to be even streamlined, but essentially that's what it does, is it makes the, makes an accommodation for non B two vehicles that are imported from countries like Japan, et cetera, et cetera.

I would love to. Thank you. I make a motion that we pass out favorably. Second substitute HB 22 Vintage Vehicle Amendments.

Think I've talked enough about this all summer.

Thank you Mr. Chair members of the committee. And, um, there is a third sub and if it's okay with the chair, I would like to speak to the third sub and I, I don't know if you want adopt that first or just course

So the third sub adds to important provisions that were overlooked. The first one clarifies a definition of farm vehicles to ensure that farm, all farm vehicles that are appropriately, uh, labeled would be exempt from the emissions attest. And the other one also deals with the Mercedes-Benz fiasco, if you want to call it that, that will ensure that, uh, the state is able to use the mitigation settlement money, uh, for those Mercedes from, for Mercedes-Benz. So it, it adds the definition of the Mercedes-Benz vehicles into the exempted class. And that's the difference between the third and the second sub.

Senator Rebe moves to DeLeT title of body second substitute house bill 22 and replace it with third substitute house bill 22.

Thank you Mr. Chairman, members of the committee. So House Bill 22 was a interim committee study. Bill, uh, tax commission came to us with a concern about the vintage vehicle program. And the specific concern was that there, it is widely viewed that there's widespread cheating and they have no ability to enforce it. So they asked us to come up with a solution, either give them the ability to enforce it or get rid of the program. So, uh, the committee's initial discussion was let's get rid of the program, but then we discovered that there are, uh, three benefits that would go away, one of which is very important to some people. So the three benefits are that they get, um, that they are exempt from emissions testing. And I'll talk about that in a second one. The second one is that they get free registration for life. Well, they get registration one time that goes for life. They don't have to prepay the other one and then they can use the black license plate for free. So the problem is, is that if we get rid of this, then we've got a lot of people who have collector vehicles and it's really important to them because they're not driving on the roads that they should not have to pay the registration fee. So we wanted to preserve the ability of the, of the collector cars to pay a lifetime registration fee. So they pay once and then they don't have to pig in for the rest of the life of that car. In order to do that, we had to delete the vintage vehicle program and create a new definition, which is classic vehicle. And then the third component to this is that in talking with the local health departments, again the, the main reason why people were cheating is not because of that. The main reason why people were cheating is because of the emissions test. So they have cars that wouldn't pass the emissions test. So they go down, they register as a vintage vehicle, and now they're cheaters. And we've created a nation of liars and that's fine. We, we'd live with that every day. But looking local health departments came to me and they said, you know, any car that doesn't have an OB two port, we just don't want to test them anymore. There's not enough of them. The equipment's very expensive, it's due to be replaced. So don't make us go through the expense of replacing all that expensive equipment for a dwindling number of cars. So the bill in effect, gets rid of the vintage vehicle program, gets rid of emissions testing for any car that does not have an OBD two port, and then creates a new definition of classic vehicle so that those, uh, collector cars which are, which are defined to be cars that are 1982 or older and driven less than 1500 miles per calendar year, or a classic travel trailer, could also be, have that benefit of that lifetime registration so they don't have to pay the registration fee every year. And so that is the content and impact of the bill. And I'm happy to take any questions.

So you ch I think you changed the mileage from 3000 to 1500?

No, so the, on the old program, so the, the, there was no definition of mileage for the vintage vehicle program, Otherwise I thought there was a 3000 mile. Okay. The 15 hundreds probably. I thought it was 15, But yeah, I, I only could find ever any mention of 1500 in, in code and, but, and I don't think there was a, a clear definition anyway. I don't know for sure how you police it, but that probably works anyway. Yeah, I think, and I think your point is well taken that we don't know how to police it. We trust people to be honest and um, you know, car collectors as a group are honest people. So.

Well I would say That I would say that too and I agree.

Thank you Mr. Chair. Um, so we are in this bill deleting vintage vehicle and replica vehicle and deleting all of the definitions throughout code. Is that One of the things that it's doing? Yeah, so vi yeah. Vintage vehicle will no longer exist. We and replica, we had to just tighten that up a little bit so that it fit with, with this new framework. I see. And then a classic ve I'm just trying to make sure Yep.

I understand. Classic vehicle is 1982 and older and

Older. Is that correct? And is driven less than 1500 miles per year? It's driven less than, okay. Alright.

And and part of the reason why that's important is because there's not a whole lot of incentive. I mean, the incentive is you don't pay the registration fee for a person who has a car. They're saving 30, $40 a year. It's not that huge of an incentive, but it preserves that benefit to collector. We have collectors in our state that have thousands of cars and so you take that 30 or 40 and multiply that across thousand Listen cars. I think there is a, there, there's a lot of cars there. I don't know anybody that has Well, I do actually no. People that have thousands of cars. So it does happen. It does. And so well, it it does happen actually. Yeah.

Um, I am So currently vintage vehicles are start at 1982 or older, right? Is that correct? And so, I mean, my, my question is how, how is a classic car different from a vintage car except for the different, um, levels

That's a great question. I'm looking to Rachel to see if I can remember where in here it has the old definition of vintage vehicle. Um, there's a, it's kind of a long bill. I thought it was, there were three separate definitions when that was part of the problem. So there were different definitions of what a vintage vehicle was, but they were in the code. It said these were intended to be not driven for daily transportation. They were supposed to be collector cars for parades, et cetera. And we all know that we had neighbors that had the license plate with that cute little model T Ford and they were driving those things to work back and forth every day. That's right. And the reason why is 'cause they couldn't pass the emissions tests. Yeah. And so we don't, they won't have to do that anymore. Okay.

Thank you Mr. Chair. Um, so that license plate with the Model T Ford goes away. And what happens if you have that? Do you have to come back to the Okay.

No, you, you get to keep, if, if your car currently has a Model T license plate, like, like, uh, Ms. Rockwell mentioned earlier the Okay. Tax commission's policy is that when a license plate is discontinued, they don't recall them. They just let people keep, keep them because it's just not worth dealing with. Okay.

Uh, somebody actually spoke to me and they were very confused by this whole thing. And so I don't really think there's that many cheaters out there. So what's, what money are we saving? What money are we wasting? Is it air? Like what is the benefit for the citizenry of Utah to change all this and confuse people?

Yeah. So the benefit of the citizens of Utah are the, we won't have to pay for the expense of buying new Okay. Non OB two equipment and, and maintaining it. Okay. People who have a car that is 1995 or older or that does not have an OB two port, and that's, there are several examples in here of other cars when they go to register, it will say you're exempt. So they don't have to get an emissions test. So they will save on the emissions test and the county save on having to have the equipment. So that's, that's the primary benefit that the tax commission was, was pushing towards.

Thank you. Uh, like I said, I had people contacting me and they were very confused by this. So we're really just trying to make a streamlined process and not really, the whole cheater thing kind of leaves a bad taste in my mouth. So it's like, oh, we're not really cheating, we're just trying to help people have a better system. Right. Yep. Okay. So have people not have to go through loopholes to get around the emissions test.

Thank you for indulging me. Uh, I on uh, forget the cars that are replica. Replica is the word I was looking for. How do you, does this, and I should have looked at this, but does this specifically state how you does the replica that it represents the year it's registered? So Is it the year it's manufactured The replica? There's,

um, that's a good thing. This was something that was requested by the tax commission to clarify and I bet there's nobody here behind me that knows the answer to that question. So I'm looking to, Rachel, can we find out what line that is? So I could read that rep replica. Oh, Say the question again. So Senator, what was your question? So my question is, what determines the year of a replica? Is it the year that it replicates or the year that it's manufactured? I Go ahead Rachel. Hold on. I dunno. She'll get that. It Starts talking about custom vehicle, vehicle 47. Yeah. Replica is a, uh, so the old definition said a replica vehicle means a street rod that meets the requirement of subsection 42 21 1 or a custom vehicle that meets the requirement 41 6 a 1507.

So If, if I may, Rachel Brooks, policy analyst with the Office of Legislative Research General counsel, Senator Ipson for a replica vehicle, the model year of the replica vehicle is the year that the body resembles.

Okay. That's as it should be. And I'm glad that's the way it is. Yeah. Okay. That takes a, that takes the confusion away from it. And I, I'm in favor of this bill. It's a good bill.

Yes. Thank you. May I make a motion? Yes, may. I'd like to send house bill 22 second sub out with a favorable recommendation.

favorably recommending third sub house bill 22 to the floor.

Madam Marine Clerk Second substitute House bill 22 Vintage Vehicle Amendments by Representative Thurston. This bill was heard in transportation with the vote of 11 0 1

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This bill file was opened at the request of the Transportation Interim Committee in response to a presentation from DMV or the State Tax Commission. Um, they highlighted to us the difficult administrative situation that they have in statutory confusion related to the vintage vehicle program. So for those who are not familiar with the Vintage Vehicle program, um, there are three main benefits that a person gets from having their car declared a vintage vehicle. First is that it's exempt from emissions inspections. Second, it's exempt from the registration fee forever for life. And third, they can get the black historic plate without having to pay the $25 contribution. So as you can see, there's a lot of incentive for people to cheat. VIN vehicles that are not actually vintage vehicles are regularly registered as vintage vehicles so that they can take advantage of those benefits. They are supposed to attest that this vehicle is not used for general or daily transportation, that it is only used for participation in club activities, exhibitions, tours, parades at et cetera. They lie, we are a nation of liars, so people cheat. So the solution that we came up with is to get rid of the vintage vehicle program. Um, now there are some legitimate people out there who are classic car collectors who didn't want us to get rid of the program in its entirety because they in fact, do not drive their cars on the roads. They keep them in big warehouses and garages, and they're all fancy. So we are replacing the vintage vehicle program with a classic vehicle designation. But the only definition, the only, um, benefit is that they get the lifetime registration benefit. Uh, and so if they are literally just driven for shows, et cetera, turns out that in looking at it, most people were joining the vintage vehicle program to get out of the emissions inspection. So that's where it started. And then when we consulted with the county health departments, they said, Hey, if you're gonna touch this emissions thing, could you do us a huge favor? And I said, I'll, I'll Blisten. And what they requested was, um, I don't know if you're familiar, everybody knows that the newer cars have a thing called an OBDT two port. When you go in for your missions inspection, they plug a little computer in there, it does a diagnostic. It's either pass or fail. If your car is 1996 or older, it doesn't have an OBDT two port so that they put up on a little thing, they spin the engine, they put the thing in the tailpipe, that equipment is antiquated and it's very expensive to maintain. So the county health departments have asked if we would also just get rid of all that emissions testing for cars older than 1995. Uh, of course you like me, might be concerned about air quality. So we worked with Department of Air Quality to find out what would be the impact on our, on our air quality. There are so few cars in that category that the effect would be minimal or negligible at best, we don't get any credit in our SIP for doing those tests and it's very expensive. So what this bill does is a composite of solving those two problems. One is it fixes the vintage vehicle program to eliminate cheating. And two, it gets rid of the emissions testing for cars that are age nine or dated 1996 and older. And with that, Mr. Speaker, I'll take questions.

Oh, Thank you Mr. Speaker. I forgot my question, sorry.

You'll Do fine. So I move the we delete entitled Embody House bill 22 and replace it with House bill 22. Substitute three.

Uh, so substitute three just, um, adds language clarifying emissions testing requirements for some Mercedes-Benz vehicles.

Thank you. Um, so this bill is an interim committee bill and addresses issues with our vintage via vintage vehicle program identified by the tax commission. Currently the program is being used by daily drivers as a loophole to avoid emissions tests and is impossible to enforce to solve this problem. The bill eliminates the vintage vehicle program and makes three key changes. Um, it eliminates emissions testing for older vehicles. Uh, it removes that requirement for all non OB D two vehicles and that was requested by local health departments because old testing equipment is too costly to maintain for the small number of cars remaining, it protects true collectors. Um, we're creating a classic car category for vehicles older than 1982, driven less than 1500 miles a year. So these are true hobbyists and they'll keep their registration fee exemptions and it cleans up definitions and standardizes the definition of replica vehicles. Ultimately this bill protects car collectors while removing the need for a loophole that was never intended to benefit daily transportation vehicles.

Sponsor yield. Senator Bus, will you yield? Yes, go ahead. Senator Vickers. Yeah. Uh, question present. So she mentioned 19, the sponsor mentioned 1982. I'm just wondering how that date came about. Is that a random pick or is it? I mean, it's making me feel kind old, so I'm just wondering It's 1982 seems to me, but go ahead, Senator Bus.

Uh, that's when the modern car Raiders are invented.

Okay. Are these only American made cars? Are they foreign or

Senator Buss For all cars.

Um, I called the question

Motion. Motion to table on third, third substitute house bill 22 for fiscal impact. Thank you. Motion to table on third house, third substitute house Bill 22.

Yes. So this was an interim committee bill that addresses issues with the vintage vehicle program identified by the tax commission. Uh, currently the program is being used by daily drivers as a loophole to avoid emissions tests and is impossible to enforce. So to solve this problem, the bill eliminates the vintage vehicle program and makes three key changes. It eliminates the emissions testing for older vehicles. It protects true collectors. Um, it's, we're now calling it the classic car category for vehicles um, older than 1982. Driven less than 1500 miles a year and it standardizes the definition of replica vehicle to ensure the law is consistent and enforceable. And that concludes my presentation.

I just call the question Thank you.

Yeah. So in the Senate we discovered that there was an error in the definition of farm vehicles. We corrected that and we also had an amendment to correct the timing of the appropriations to more adequately, um, match the timing of the expenditures.