H.B. 118 Driver Training Schools for Commercial Driver License Amendments: transcript

Thank you, Senator. Thank you for the committee's patience. I've had a chance to work with Senator Winterton. I think we've gotten to a good place on this bill. So the substitute, I'll be speaking to you today, is the second sub. Um, but colleagues, uh, actually last session, uh, right before I had a constituent reach out who actually is, uh, one of the testers in our state with a testing company. And, uh, they were finding that there was an inordinate number of, of applicants who were coming through who, uh, were not proficient in English, which is already the federal law around this, uh, when they were coming in for their CDLI. Um, and it was negatively impacting, uh, their numbers. And so we looked deeper into this and this became a bigger issue. And unfortunately, what we found is that there are some schools around the country that are not being honest with students, and they're not telling them you have to be proficient in English. That, or they're turning a blind eye to it. And so they will charge someone thousands of dollars for them to take and go to school to be a, a driver. And then when they go to actually apply for the test, they were failing because they could not speak English proficiently, and they had spent all that money on it. So this I view, is two ways. Uh, from a public safety perspective, it's important that we're ensuring that individuals who are driving big rigs can understand traffic signs and communicate with the public, uh, and respond official inquiries, which aligns with existing federal CDL requirements. Uh, but the second piece to this is also making sure that, uh, people are being good actors and honest, and wanted to create a way where the driver's license division could actually report when there was a clear pattern of a school passing on students who clearly should not have been that they had charged the thousands of dollars. So we have their, the changes in the sub, and I'll walk you through what this process would look like now. So in Utah, when you go get your learner's permit, you are required to take the test in English. Um, and you can see in lines 2 86 to 2 94. It walks through what that looks like. Uh, again, this is when they're coming in for that learner's permit. Uh, but as you go down, then you'll see the next check is how we will do this at the testing level is just if a tester has to fail a student because they're not proficient in English, then they'll notify the driver's license division of the school that student attended. So that really is the bill. I think we've found a balance here. This is a complicated issue because we are intersecting with federal policy. Um, but this is something that impacts Utah businesses and Utah drivers and taxpayers. And so that's the bill in a nutshell.

Discussing to the, to the motion to substitute, which has not been made yet, which I'm hoping will be made.

Great. So we'll go to Senator Winterton. Then I would Make the motion that we adopt the second substitute on house bill one 18.

Thank you. Substitute motion, please.

I move substitute one in my name. I'd like to speak to it.

Thank you. Um, I appreciate the changes that have been made in substitute two. Um, I think I, I still have concerns, uh, with it. There, there are some big changes that I think are moving in the right direction. Uh, one thing though that I worry about is that the, uh, name of people who, the names of people who either failed to take the test because of their English language proficiency or fail, that will go to a federal database in my sub. Uh, it also, uh, takes out that the names, uh, going into the list. Um, but it will keep the database, sorry, it'll keep the data in the, uh, with the DLD.

I appreciate what the, uh, the sponsor of the first sub is trying to do, but I feel like that maybe we're stepping outta lines because this is a federal program and to dictate what the feds are asking us for, I don't think that's in our wheelhouse. And, and so I would, um, discourage support of the second or the first sub.

Thank you. And I appreciate that. I took this to the, the drafter. This is really challenging because we do not control the federal database. And the truth is, if you're already going to one of these schools and applying, um, and have a learner's permit, you're already in the system. And so this is not adding you into a system. They're already in the system. And so, uh, the first sub does not make the changes that I've worked out with, uh, representative Winterton. I will say there is a line in here where we're talking about the data that the, the, um, sorry, I'm pulling it up. That the driver's license division collects that it has the name of the student as well as the school. To me, the school is the more important component here. 'cause we're trying to get bad actors. So if we need to, before this gets to the floor, I can work with you on that. Again, I, but I wanna be transparent. Even if we remove the applicant's name, I'm pretty sure they already have it. But if that, but if it makes you feel better to remove it out of our code, that's fine. But I think because it's federal, they're already tracking who's in this program.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, when I look at the sub to the sub, my question is, are we trying to keep people safe or are we trying to, um, do a gotcha moment for people that don't speak English? So that's the part that is a, a little concerning. Uh, I do agree. This is a federal program. Um, I did have a CDL at one point. You don't have to read a lot once you start driving a truck, but getting the test, getting through the test can be difficult. Um, so if we are trying to capture bad actors, then we can just say they failed the test and maybe not failed the Right. The language proficiency test, which actually puts them in a different type of category. So when you put them into the category that says they don't speak English, that's a very different than them not passing the test. So Actually it's not in that, when a tester, based on my conversations with individuals who do testing, yeah. One of the ways you can fill that test is not being proficient in English because it is a federal requirement to be proficient in English. And so if you, here's the challenge. And so I would say this is not meant to be a Gotcha. Okay. Genuinely, I think there are bad actors out there who are preying upon people who are trying to find a way to make money. And they say, Hey, come to our school, you pay three to $10,000. But then when they show up for the test, and this is why this company reached out, they felt bad for these applicants who had come to take the test and they started talking to them, and then they'd ask like, what's going on with the tire here? Yep. And they had no idea what they just asked them, and they had to fail them. And so then it goes on to the driver's license division, but they weren't capturing why they, all these fails were happening and it wasn't English proficiency. And so what I would hope is that in that moment, we could say, is there a common theme in the school? Okay. These students are going to, that we can report.

Thank you Mr. Chair. Number one, this isn't the got you moment because we're trying to protect the student with this bill. And Sub one doesn't do the things that the bill sponsor has negotiated with members of this committee. So I'd be, I would not be in favor of passing that.

Thank you. Um, and I do appreciate and know that the good sponsor is trying to, um, catch the bad actors and not catch our, our community members. And my, uh, goal here was, is to make sure that our community members are not caught in, uh, unintentional consequences. Um, I do know that the, uh, information is already in a federal database. My concern is that, uh, we will be asking specifically for people in, in the second sub, we'll be asking for, um, uh, testers to give specific names of people and specific reasons of why they either did not take the test or failed the test. And specifically looking for, um, that, uh, lack of English language proficiency. And that's where my worry is, is that it makes it easier to have a list of people who, uh, either failed it or refuse to take it because of that reason. And so, um, I, I do, I can count right? But I do look forward to being able to work, uh, forward, uh, with the sponsor. Thank you.

You. I think I've given the bulk of my presentation, I am happy to continue working if we need to strike that line, um, because the schools is what we're trying to target here. And also the concern was that initially the burden was being put on the testers as to what's going on. Why are you failing so many people when really they were catching things that the school was passing through. So, uh, I appreciate the committee's work on this. I know the Trucking Association is in support of this. I've had conversations with Highway Patrol last year when I worked on this, and they supported this. Again, this is already federal law. Uh, we're just making sure that what we do at the state level is in alignment with that policy and also in the best interest of public safety and also consumer protection.

Senator Winterton, before we go to the public, I appreciate the sponsor and, and her, her efforts on this. Um, I do want, I think it's important that the state and the citizens and the state recognize that our, uh, driver's license division is top notch. And, and the publicity that we've got nationally on, on the problems is not a state problem. From my point of view, we've adopted some of this or inherited it from other states. Mm-hmm. Uh, because of the federal, uh, program, a third party tester can test anybody that has got a learner's permit, whether that's outta California, Nevada. Yep. Colorado. A and, and so if we're gonna take a bagger app, I know that our, our division here in the state of Utah, we don't give a learner's permit out to somebody that cannot proficiently understand English and speak it and, and test in English. And so we've done our part mm-hmm. And now it, it comes back to the bad actors of the schools that are taking this money. And so I want the public to understand that we're doing everything we can to make sure that our, our students come out and, and they're gonna be safe on the roads. So thank you for your efforts.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. You know, um, when I think of truck driving, it's actually a gateway job for people to get outta poverty, to improve their lives, to improve their family's lives. I mean, when I drove a dump truck, it was literally the highest paying job I could get without a lot of, um, um, education. I mean, I, I did have a college degree, but that wasn't part of it. But I mean, it's a really great job. It's a high paying job that provides a lot of stability to families. And so, when I first look at this bill, I, I thought it was something that was, um, something other than protecting people from bad actors in the trucking industry that are training drivers. Now, I see that this is trying to capture people that are not being, um, fair and transparent. Um, but as somebody who's driven a truck, I, I don't really think you need to speak a lot of English. You actually have lots of tools on your phone, like Google Translate. That's what we do in school. So, uh, my frustration isn't with your bill, it's with the system that, um, doesn't provide this gateway for people. So, um, I will be supporting your bill, and I hope you can still work with my colleague here to find a better Blanding place. But I do appreciate that you're trying to capture bad actors. Thank you. Thank

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm Rick Clasby, the Executive Director of the Utah Trucking Association. We very much appreciate Representative Pucci. Uh, we, we worked with her last year on this issue. Uh, she was responsive to our concerns then, and, and made really nice modifications to this bill. We see this as two things, as has been stated. Um, it, it is a protection for the students who may need to learn to read road signs and things a little bit better. Uh, and so it is a, a protection for them. Uh, nationally, we've had some really tragic situations where individuals who, uh, suffered from not being able to read road signs, caused some real challenges. Uh, California and Florida come top of mind. Um, so we see this as a, a minimal check to make sure that we get the most, uh, qualified and appropriate driver. So we, we highly support this bill and appreciate all the work that's been done. So thank you. Thank You. All

I would, uh, motion to favorably recommend second substitute house bill one 18 Discussion. That motion.

Thank you. I appreciate the committee's patience on this and your time. And, uh, appreciate the support as well.

Alright, colleagues. Thank you for your time today. Uh, if you'll remember, this committee actually reviewed this policy last year, but it was late into the session, and so it didn't quite make it, uh, through the process there at the end. But, uh, I did refile this, uh, this is a bill that actually was brought to my attention and this idea by a constituent that I was working with who actually, actually worked for one of the, uh, uh, companies or examiners that provides the tests for CDLs. And there was a concerning trendy notice where students were coming to him who were unable to speak English proficiently, despite the fact that that's actually a requirement to get your CDL. It's both federal law and also the Trump administration passed an executive order strengthening that in his second term. Uh, but it already is on the books. But these schools, um, charge students thousands of dollars to take the course, and that student then has the assumption that they're going to be able to get their license, um, when they go for the exam. Uh, but unfortunately, some of these examiners were having to fail them because they could not pass that proficiency component. So it's a fairly straightforward bill. It's just requiring that CDL applicants and the driving training school that they attend will sign a form. If you look at line 3 44, that's the crux of the bill. Just attesting that the applicant can read and speak English, um, sufficiently so that they can converse with the general public, understand highway traffic signs and signals, respond, official inquiries, et cetera. Um, and I think this is important, and actually I view as a protection for the student, because it's unfair to require them to pay all that money and then not be able to actually pass, even though they may know the material, but not be able to, uh, articulate it in English. So, uh, that is the nuts and bolts. The, the bill, it provides that additional transparency and then also has a data collection component so that the driver's license division can monitor this and help us, uh, identify those schools that are underperforming or maybe non-compliant in training programs where if we consistently see students showing up who are coming from the same school that have been passed on and had to pay thousands of dollars but cannot qualify for their CDL, then the division can take action towards them. And I, uh, think it'll help us maintain high quality and reputable, reputable training companies across the country as this becomes a more important issue. And that's the bill. Thanks. Rep representative.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, I feel like this is a strange question, but Okay. The, the form that they're attesting to that they speak English, is it written in more languages than English or are they reading an English form to

It would be in English.

Okay. Thank you. That's a good question.

Yeah. Uh, my comment would kind of be similar to the good representative, the, that just spoke and, um, who's gonna be able to determine this, um, whether someone's proficient or not, if they're not qualified to, so, so is it just gonna be, you know, the, the manager or is it just gonna be someone who walks in and says, I'm gonna test someone to see if they can speak English? How, how will that work?

No. So the, at the training school, it would be up to them, whether it's the counselor or a supervisor, someone that they would appoint to do that. But the idea is if you look at lines 33 47 to three 50 specifically that they, from having conversation with them would have the ability to evaluate it. This is something they should already be doing, but we're just calling it out in law because we're noticing that there are some schools that are not actually doing it.

Uh, follow up question. Has, um, have there been any accidents or has there been a, a number of people that have made mistakes because they haven't passed a a test?

It's a great question. So this actually came up, like I said, uh, that the, the, um, companies that were doing the testing were the ones cashing these students and they would have to fail them, which then reflects poorly on them and the student for being failed when really it should have been on the school for, uh, charging them thousands of dollars and then requiring, telling them they were prepared when they know they weren't. But after talking to Highway Patrol and others on this, yes, I've had, uh, officers explain that when they've pulled someone over, they'll ask what is viewed as like the standard questions of license and registration, but then they'll say, Hey, what's that sticking outta your tire? And clearly there is not, um, understanding of the language to know they, they couldn't communicate back, uh, across the country. There have been a couple of situations, but obviously it would make sense that you would need to understand highway traffic signs and signals if you're driving a big rig.

Thank you for answering my questions.

Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm Rick k Clasby, the Executive Director of the Utah Trucking Association. Uh, we worked late last session, uh, with the good representative and, and got to a point where we supported it last year. Um, as mentioned, there have been some very high profile accidents across the country this year, and it's become a real sensitive issue for trucking associations across the country. So we highly support this, uh, recommendation and, and appreciate that it does two things, that it ensures, uh, safety and language proficiency, uh, and it protects those students who might be taken advantage of, uh, by having to go to a school multiple times or, or not be able to pass the test, uh, at the conclusion of their training. So we support this bill vigorously.

See, representative Oakland, I move That we pass out favorably HB one 18.

I'll waive Any comments from the committee.

Hi everyone. Sorry, I'm on a work trip, so I'm trying to do two jobs at one time. Now. I, I do have a concern with this. I just, with our current political climate and just concerns on who's gonna determine, um, who am is English proficient. And so I I just have a, a couple more questions, so I'm gonna know right now and I, um, wanna have more discussions with the Dr with the sponsor of the bill.

You. And I appreciate Rick, there have been a lot of high profile cases that have been really concerning, and as you know, there's a reason we require a CDL, uh, because the trucks you're driving are massive and an accident in one of those is a little bigger and worse than say if you're in two normal cars. Uh, and to the good representative, representative Romero's question, I'm happy to continue that discussion. The schools, if they're operating in good faith, should have someone who is already doing that assessment as it is, uh, federal guidelines now. And I would hope they're flagging that already. But I'm happy to continue that discussion online, and I appreciate Robeson of Oland's motion.

Uh, thank you, Mr. Chair. I remember some of the conversation we had on this bill last year, and it, it was framed in some cases as being a bill that was punitive to people who weren't proficient in speaking English. But my recollection of the intention behind the bill and, uh, and, and the end result of what this bill will do is that it will actually, um, potentially help people from being, um, scammed, being taken advantage of. Mm-hmm. Because they don't speak English and, uh, they may not find that out until after they've paid thousands of dollars to get the training that they paid for. Correct. Thank you. So with that, I, I support this and thank you.

House bill one 18 Driver training schools for commercial driver license amendments by Representative Pucci. This bill was served in transportation with the vote of 8 2 2

Thank you Mr. Speaker. Colleagues, uh, this is a very concise and easy to explain Bill. Uh, a constituent reached out to me actually two interims ago. I started work on this last session, uh, and was part of a company that provided a testing service for CDL applicants who had just gone through the school training and were going through the testing and they started noticing that a lot of these students actually were not proficient in English, which is a requirement, it is already a federal requirement. Uh, but these students unfortunately had paid thousands of dollars to said testing school, the school for CDLs, uh, and then when they got there, they had to fail them because they did not meet all of the requirements. And so this bill corrects that problem and, uh, really tries to promote public safety, but also tries to protect these students who may be taken advantage of by some of these schools who are telling them, yes, go through this school. Uh, but then when they go for the test, they actually don't qualify. So this will require CDL applicants to attest to English language proficiency at the school on the front end, rather than leaving it up to the final end. Uh, with the testing school, it'd be like showing up for high school graduation and someone telling you that, oh my gosh, they didn't tell you when you started school but you don't get to graduate today. Uh, so it is required, um, and it requires that those applicants sign a forms they can confirm, they can read and speak English well enough to understand traffic signs, communicate with the public complete required reports and records. And this bill aligns with existing federal code for CDL driver training schools. It helps improve transparency and accountability and it also will provide data collection for the driver's license division so that we can try and identify if there are bad actors, which schools those are. So if frequently they're seeing a, a testing, uh, provider finding that a school has sent, you know, multiple students that are not proficient in English, they would flag that school and go and investigate. This bill is supported by the trucking association. There have been some really, uh, tragic and egregious high profile cases over the last year that you've probably seen in the news and they're in full support of this. And with that Mr. Speaker, I'm open for any questions. Thank you, Madam Marine Clerk, or sorry.

Thank you. Thank you Mr. Speaker, may I ask a few questions? Representative Pucci, will you yield to a series of questions?

Yes, yes, representative.

Thank you Mr. Speaker. My first question is how are we going to track who tests people and says that these individuals are English proficient?

So that would be left up to the schools, Mr. Speaker, and that is something they should be doing already. So whether it's, you know, a counselor within their office or someone in their department, that would be up to them to decide who would do that. As I've said, this is a requirement. Um, English proficiency is a federal requirement and we're just marrying that in code. Thank you Mr. Speaker.

And my question is, if this is already federal law, why do we need to, um, pass a bill at the state legislative level?

So thank you Mr. Speaker. If I may, English proficiency is required at federal law, but right now what you're seeing is students, I would argue being victimized and taken advantage of who are told, yes, you can pay me thousands of dollars to go through this school, but then when you show up for the test, they can clearly tell there's not an English proficiency. And so the reason for this bill is to move that check to the front end when someone first uh, goes to school.

Thank you Mr. Speaker. I do have concerns with this bill. I, I'm from Tua, Utah. My, my grammar sucks, my speaking skills suck at times. Just gonna say, um, that we have a good English teacher in my caucus that reminds me when I speak. I don't speak correctly, but my concern is, is just the chilling effect with some of the bills we've been passing this last legisl of Legisl this past session where I feel like many people in my district, my district's 50% Latino feel like, um, their state is running legislation to hurt their families. And I know that's not the intent of the speaker, but this brings a lot of concern to me because there are a lot of people in my district who are just trying to survive. And I think this isn't a limit their ability to provide for their families. Thank you Mr. Speaker.

Thank you Mr. Speaker. I would just rise in support of this. Bill had a, a member of my family in the last year complete CDL training. Of course he's proficient in English, but as he has um, embarked on the, this career, even though the federal, um, department of Transportation is in charge of this, I'm not sure that's the correct correct one, it is not being enforced. Mm-hmm. He told me that when he, uh, drives out of state to drop off cars, to pick up cars, he has gone to numerous places where people are so relieved that he speaks English. It makes it so much easier for the paperwork and all of the things that they do. And we all hear about people who come to this country, they're not proficient and they are, um, preyed upon by different people and entities. And so what this bill is really trying to do is make sure that in Utah we are in compliance, but take, um, an end result, an end problem and put it at the front so that people know before they put down thousands of dollars. 'cause these classes are very, very expensive that they need to know how to read and write appropriately enough to be able to do the job that, that they want to do. So this is not to limit them, this, this is actually to protect him and Mr. Speaker, I really in feel like this is a great bill. Thank you.

Thank you Mr. Speaker. I would just say this, that this is twofold of a bill. It's protecting public safety. I have heard from uh, individuals, members, officers in highway patrol who have said they've pulled over A-C-D-L-A big truck driving a big rig and they go and approach them and they'll ask them standard questions, but then they ask, what's that sticking outta the tire. And the driver did not know what they were asking. And so that's a obviously a hazard and a public safety issue for sure. But then also I think for these students we need to make sure that we are providing them, uh, the resources and realistic expectations. And I think these schools, uh, should do a better job in being honest with students and not just taking their money and setting them up for failure. And this bill accomplishes that and I would ask for my colleague support.

Thank you Mr. President. What this does is it sets up certain requirements for CDL driving schools. One of the things that it does is it requires the applicants to be able to speak English and be proficient in English so they can understand traffic signs, communicate with the public and respond to official inquiries. With that, I'm open for questions. Senator Ipson, I'm not seeing any questions. I'm going to you for a motion Under suspension of the rules.

I make a motion to house Bill one 18 pass.

Would you like to speak to? It Is very briefly. It made some very important changes to help protect the privacy of the students.