H.B. 126 Micro-Education Entity Facility Amendments: transcript

Yes. Yes. I will be speaking to the sub that just came online today. But in case there is confusion, make sure that you're reading that one. 'cause this is, is pretty different. Same in concept, but make sure you're looking at that. Um, thank you. I think this is the first time I have come to this committee, so thank you for having me. Um, last year, the legislator, the legislature, worked to support educational choice, um, and parental choice, and we passed a micro schools bill, which was wonderful. Unfortunately, there was some vague language in that bill, um, that would, that was vague enough that it could be interpreted that a large micro school entity up to a hundred students could be in a residential area. So this happened in Kaysville, Utah. Um, that's where, where I live, and my mayor and my city manager approached me and said, Hey, we have, um, we have some micro school entities that are rather large who would like to purchase homes in residential areas and have, um, and, and not live in those areas, not live in those homes, but have them operate as schools with up to a hundred students. Um, and that was not in the intent of the legislation, but because of some of the vague language in the original legislation, it did open the door for that. Luckily, our, um, city was able to work with the business owners and find a place that was more suitable for them, but we just wanted to make sure that we clear up, we cleared up that language, um, so that in the future, cities don't have to wrestle with this problem. Um, I wanna be very clear that this bill does not prohibit home-based micro schools, home schools, homeschool co-ops, um, and learning groups from continuing to exist or operate. This in no way will impact them. Um, this simply gives the cities and counties the tools they need to set reasonable zoning limits and something that works within the scales of their cities. So what it does is specifically is it expands the list that cities or municipalities may, um, use as allowable local local regulations. So they could put regulations in residential areas around parking, traffic, circulation, noise ordinances, hours of operation, graduated, lot size requirements, et cetera. Um, this does not say that cities must or shall just that they may, and this gives the cities the flexibility that they need to create a fit for their communities and gives them that local control. Again, I want to reiterate that this does not the shut, this does not shut the door on micro schools and residential areas. Many micro schools are small neighborhood based, and they work beautifully. This bill allows them to continue to operating where they fit while improving local government's ability to address situations to scale. With that, I'm happy to answer any questions.

Thank Thank you Madam Vice chair. So you kind of had said at the beginning of your presentation that different groups were involved in setting up this language here. Could you speak a little bit, was it, was the city the only group that you were worked with? Were there other groups? Is there a group that lobbies specifically for micro schools that had wanted to have some input or what groups' input was considered? Yeah, So we worked with Libertas, um, and they were, so last year when this bill passed, um, they helped kind of flesh out that language. Um, and when, when we started working on us, they contacted us and so we worked with them to make sure we got the language right so that it was the right balance for cities and for micro schools.

Thank you. Um, I, I spent some time going over the original version of the bill. Can you just gimme a quick walkthrough of what's different in the sub?

Yeah. Um, so the original bill, I mean, it kind of addresses a different, a different part of the code. Um, the sub, well, I, I, I forgot to mention this also, we added just a little provision that, um, addresses student capacity limits and clarifies occupancies must comply with state building and fire code. So that's just an add-on. Um, what we did in this, rather than saying that residential, that no micro schools could operate in a residential area that, um, are large entity micro schools, what we're saying is that they rather we're giving the cities the tools to have local zoning control over that. For example, in our city in Kaysville, we did not want one, a 100 student school at the end of a cul-de-sac in a quiet residential area. Mm-hmm. However, when, when we put this bill out, we were approached by other cities and towns that said, you know, we have, uh, we have a property with five acres of land and it's on an arterial road and it's zoned residential, but it would actually be a great place to have a micro school. So that's where we allowed some flexibility. So rather than taking away completely that ability for that property to be a school, giving that, uh, flexibility to the cities to, to decide how to best manage that is what we found to be the right balance.

Okay. Can I ask a follow up? Please? Go ahead. So with your, with your hypothetical there, the, so let's say you have a residential area that's a little more densely packed. Um, and, and you have someone who wants to open up a micro school and you know, it could be 10 students, it could be up to a hundred. Like what's, what, how do they limit, um, the size and determine what's reasonable given the, the density of the residential area?

Yeah, so there are different definitions of schools. So there's already home-based micro schools mm-hmm. Which is its own, uh, definition that, so that's 16 students and under, um, and so those would be allowable in residential areas. Um, and then above that, to be honest, I'm not clear if there's like a middle designation. Um, but the large micro entities allow up to a hundred students. Okay. So that, that house that you were talking about that has the five acres, that would be a large entity, it would be allowed the kind of that max capacity? Yeah. I mean, within the state zoning laws, right? Yeah. So it has to fit occupancy laws and then also whatever the city deem deems the, the zoning laws should be surrounding that property.

Great. Thank you. Yeah.

Great, thank you. Uh, Jason Christiansen. I'm city manager in Kaysville City. Uh, just here to speak in support of the, uh, the bill. And, uh, as Representative Fa said, we, we think this says really strikes the right balance. Um, and as a win-win, we're happy with the way it's, I think there are reasonable, uh, regulations put in place here with this bill that would help the cities avoid any unintended consequences. Um, and that's all I'd have to say, unless there are questions.

This is a new committee for me. I'm John England with the Libertas Institute. I normally work on education policy and, uh, as many of you know, micro schools is definitely an issue that is near and dear to my heart. And so I really appreciate working with both Kaysville City and Representative Defay. On the first substitute, it addressed all of our concerns. Um, going back to representative Arthur's question that he had about, um, how many people could be in a micro school. So the language was vague, but it was always the case that the building's capacity could always limit the number of students. So you have to have adequate square footage and you have to have, you know, all all the right safety things that, um, both the fire marshal and the cities when we very first worked on it were interested in. And so from our perspective, this really just clarifies what we worked on before, um, making it clear that cities can, and this may surprise some of you, Libertas actually thinks that cities should pass an ordinance, helping micro school founders understand where they can and cannot put a micro school. Um, because that will just make it easier for them to open, uh, from the get go. But, uh, really appreciate all the changes. All the changes. Like I said, um, all the suggestions we came back with were accepted and this is something that we now support and hope that you will pass.

All right. Good afternoon, madam Vice Chair Committee members. My name's Alexa Oldham. I'm with the Utah League of Cities and towns. ULCT is supportive of this bill. We're very grateful to, um, the representative for her hard work and collaboration with local governments on this issue. So thank you. Thanks.

Alright, can you hear me? Yes. Great. So I'm Seth Stewart. Um, my wife and I homeschool and we have a co-op that we're a part of as well for, for our homeschool needs. And we have been investigating private schools and some of these micro education opportunities for our children to kind of expand the, the leverage that we can get for, for helping with the education of our children. And, um, there are some concerns that I have with this. Namely, uh, among other things, it would seem that this bill is, uh, compelling micro education providers to upgrade their facilities when that may not be physically necessary. For example, we know of there are some, uh, nature schools and homestead co-ops that meet and, and frankly a, a natural environment and don't really require, uh, this kind of a facility that's, that's spoken of in the bill that would actually create a very significant financial hurdle for these small educational providers to have to clear in order to be able to continue to compete in the private educational space. And I don't know if that's been adequately, uh, considered or addressed this, uh, concern about the, the fact that this does increase the steepness of ascent. It creates a barrier to entry to compete in the educational marketplace for, you know, small, initially homegrown kind of a micro educational, uh, business because the cost to, uh, lease or purchase a facility of the kind required here is excessive. And I don't, I don't think that the, uh, change of kicking that decision to the municipalities really fully addresses that issue. There's still concern about just the, the blanket requirement. And as, as noted by the gentleman previously, there were already, um, you know, space and occupancy types of restrictions. I'm just not seeing a g uh, a a justification for adding these restrictions, which would actually have the effect of narrowing school, school choice. This, this limits the options available to parents who are wanting to get their children into a good, uh, schooling provider. So I urge reconsideration of that and, uh, to just frankly shelve it because it, this, this has, has that effect. Thank you.

Uh, thank you Madam Vice chair. Um, I'd like to move first substitute, Can we have a motion to move first, the first substitute, is there a discussion to that motion? Um, and to the sponsor?

Yes. Thank you. Um, I just wanna sum real quick in saying that respectfully, I, I disagree with the statements made from, um, the last gentleman. So we aren't placing any additional restrictions on anyone, and specifically not on home-based micro schools, co-ops, or home schools. Um, but we are simply clarifying what happened in the law last year. So, um, I think that may be a misinterpretation. Um, but as far as the bill goes, I'm so happy with the ability of everyone coming together, finding common ground, and being able to work out a really positive solution. So I appreciate your support. Thank you.

I'll waive.

Thank you. Um, I'd like to make a motion that we favorably recommend House Bill 1 26. First substitute.

No, that's okay. I wasn't, oh, Can you hear me? Oh, I, I just wanted to thank the sponsor of the bill for the substitute. Um, I really appreciate the work that went in on behalf of this and I support this as well. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, this is just a quick clarifying bill. I worked with, uh, Senator Fillmore on, he passed a wonderful bill about, uh, micro schools last year. Um, and this was brought to me by my city. There was a little bit of vague language that, um, kind of opened up, uh, municipalities to, uh, having to put micro schools that have up to a hundred students inside residential areas. So what this just does is clarifies that cities can have zoning laws and rules and kind of creates a list of different zoning laws, not that they have to follow it, but gives them ideas of, um, rules like parking, traffic, circulation, noise, ordinances, and hours of operation that helps them so they can right size. What, um, what schools can go into the communities. This in no way touches home, schools, co-ops, small home-based micro schools. It's just those larger, uh, micro school entities that can, uh, that can hold up to 100 students that this, um, is just helping cities to manage their zoning properly. And that's all. Thank you. That concludes your presentation. Yes.

Thank you. So this is going to clarify where a school of a hundred kids could be. That's what we're gonna, we're gonna ask cities to create zoning for that.

No, not exactly. Okay. Um, so it's giving the cities the tools. Okay. Um, the ability to, well, it's saying that they can, um, create zoning ordinances in those neighborhoods, in neighborhoods if they would like to, for micro entities. So this, so for example, let's say in our city, what happened is we had residential neighborhood house at the end of a cul-de-sac. A micro school wanted to come in, open up a hundred student school, and they're like, wait, that doesn't make any sense. And they're like, well, it's, it kind of seems like in the language here, we can, that's where there became a problem. Some cities. So, but some cities are like, well, we have residential areas, they're zoned residential, but they're on arterial roads and they're on huge lots. Um, and so it's fine if they have a school there. So we are just, um, clarifying that language that cities have the ability to zone and create ordinances how they would like so that they can have schools in the right places. I

Love this. Thank you. Thank You.

So right now, the way the bill was drafted originally, it just said that, um, you had to allow micro entities in residential zones. Okay. Um, and this is just saying, and it, and it, they have The option to de They they have the option. Yeah. And it alluded to that, but we just are making it very clear that they still have the option to create ordinances so that, that it's not any residential zone.

Thank you members of the committee. My name is John England. I am with the Libertas Institute, and, uh, we support this bill. Um, micro schools are popular in Utah. There was a recent poll that came out a couple years ago, or sorry, a couple weeks ago, um, from Overton Insights talking about how, um, 69% of Utahans support these in their neighborhoods. Um, with that said, the original intent of the bill that Senator Fillmore was the sponsor of was to allow cities to pass ordinances so that we don't end up with situations that, uh, representative Faye described, where, you know, you have a small cul-de-sac on a very small street, it doesn't make sense to put a hundred person school there, but there are properties that are in residential zones that are five acres on a large road. Maybe it does make sense. And so letting cities have that discretion to, to make that and just clarifying that is, is what we are, um, happy that she, she brought forward and that this could clarify that for cities to be able to make those ordinances. Um, my understanding is they felt that they couldn't because of the way the law was worded, and this clarifies that. So, uh, thank you and we urge you to support this Bill. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Thank you, Mr. Mr. Chairman. I would make a motion that we pass out, uh, house Bill 1 26. Uh, first substitute with a favorable recommendation.

Yeah, I just wanna say thank you to Senator Fillmore and to Lebert toss for working with me to make this clarification. Thank you. Okay.

Meeting clerk First substitute house bill 1 26 Micro education entity Facility amendments by Representative Defay. This bill was heard in political subdivisions with the vote of 7 0 5

Thank you Mr. Speaker Pro Tem. Uh, this bill was brought to me by my mayor and my city manager. Last year. We passed a bill to encourage educational innovation, um, that was based on micro schools. It was a good bill. Unfortunately, there was some unin unintended consequences in some vague language that, um, could be interpreted that cities would have to and must allow for large entity micro educations to education schools to um, be able to open up in residential areas. So what this, that wasn't the intention of the bill. This is just to make a clarification that that was not the intention of the bill. I want to be very, very clear that this does not prohibit home schools, home-based micro schools, homeschool co-ops, or neighborhood schools from continuing to operate. This does not regulate them in any way so that this doesn't touch that this is large entity micro schools. It just gives, uh, cities and towns the ability to create ordinances that can custom fit land use for their communities. So for instance, if you have a house in the middle of a small residential area and someone wants to come in and put a hundred students, the, uh, an open a school, the city has the ability to put some ordinances around it. So that can't happen. At the same time, if you have a residential area zoned that's has a home on five acres near an arterial road and it makes sense for a micro school to be there, then this gives the city the ability to custom fit ordinances for that situation as well. And that's simply what this bill does. I'm happy to answer any questions.

Uh, I appreciate your support. Thank you.

Adam Reading Clerk

You. Uh, Mr. President Pro tem. The, the house sponsor here was approached by Heber City with some confusion about, uh, the, the code surrounding micro schools. Uh, and so as we dug into this and worked with the stakeholders to help set this up and, and the League of Cities and towns, we've come up with this, uh, with this approach, the first substitute's been a consensus bill between the cities and education, education advocates and Libertas Institute that helped craft this. So the first substitute here were striking an important ballots by ensuring that micro schools and micro education entities are still permitted uses. But it also makes clear that cities and counties may adopt reasonable land use regulations that are tailored to specific communities.

for summation and a motion. Thank You. I move that house first. Substitute house Bill 1 26. Be read a third time

Senator Fillmore? I don't have any discussion. I'm gonna go to use summation on motion. A move that first substitute house Bill 1 26 pass.