H.B. 137 Violent Crime Clearance Rate Amendments: transcript

Well, thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I haven't been in this committee for, uh, two years, and now I'm here a lot. So thanks For having me. I swear we had you two weeks ago. Yeah. Thanks for having me again. Um, and is it okay, Lacey, if I share my slides here? I've got it plugged in. That possible. Thank you. Um, so in front of you today is, uh, uh, the first substitute was adopted in committee. So that's what I'll be speaking to or in rules committee from, uh, chair Wilcox. Um, this bill is simple. Um, vi violent crime is a problem that we can make an impact on. If you look at this graph here, uh, shows a trend that violence has highly concentrated. Uh, many times people look at social determinants of crime and say, well, someone's committing violence because they're in poverty, or someone's committing violence because of the neighborhood or the zip code they're in. But we know that that's not true. Um, so if you're looking at this graph here, this is from the Western District of Baltimore. So if you've seen the show The Wire, this is the some data that I've extrapolated here from, uh, the National Network for Safe Communities. So if you look at one per 1.6% of that entire area that people like to say is a, is a quote unquote bad neighborhood. It's only really 1.6% that's committing 75% or more of the violent crime in, in that area. And so, the reason for, the reason I highlight that statistic is that this is a, this is a challenge that we can make an impact on. The impact that I'm hoping that we can, uh, work on today is the importance of certainty and clearing, uh, clearance rates when it comes to violent crime. HB 1 37 creates a violent crime clearance rate fund to help send detectives, investigators, law enforcement to trainings to make sure that they're getting the most up-to-date information, um, to study best practices, and also for other, other important pieces that have a nexus to clearance rates. Things like the Witness Protection program, uh, victim services, things that can help make an impact in clearing a case. Um, the importance of certainty when it comes to violent crime is very important. Um, the data shows out, and this is one of the peer-reviewed, uh, studies that I chose to highlight, is that the certainty of apprehension is actually more important or more, uh, impactful in many cases than the severity of the consequences. And so when you think about someone who's about to pull the trigger at a drive-by shooting in Maverick, they're not necessarily thinking, well, as you know, I very much support accountability in the criminal justice system. Many times what the data would, would parse out is that they're not thinking about how long will I serve? They're thinking, will I get caught if I pull this trigger? HB 1 37 seeks to enhance violent crime clearance rates by investing in those pieces. Um, this is just, uh, some data from the homicide project. Um, and so you can see in the darker number, or excuse me, the darker bar is, is homicide clearances. And yellow is the total number of homicides committed here in Utah. And so, um, I I, the good news is actually this, these bars have gone up because of, uh, really dedicated work by many professionals in this space. But when you look at that gap, there could be a lot of reasons for that. And so, um, when you look at what this, what this can do, I'll give you you one example of, uh, what I could see this investment going to in West Valley City. They changed, uh, based on research. They changed their policy when it came to shots fired calls. So, um, many times they would go, they would be at a shots fired call. The officers would circle the neighborhood and see if they could find, um, any evidence. And if they couldn't, they would, they would clear it out because they have a lot of work. They have a lot of work going on in West Valley City. Um, they changed their policy a couple years ago to look for shell casings on the ground. And that one policy change actually helped close, uh, more than one homicide case by finding shell casings that were linked to other homicides using the state crime lab and neighbors. So these are the kinds of evidence-based policies. They don't increase any penalties. This isn't about, um, uh, enhancing any penalties. This is about making sure that our law enforcement and our system as a whole has the tools that we need, um, to solve violent crime and by and by doing so, prevent future violence in our communities. Um, and with that, I'm happy to answer any questions, Mr. Chair.

The only question I had sent to me was why don't we have more slides on this topic? And I don't know how to answer that if you'd like to. It's fine. This is My condensed version because I have Like 13 on the I know.

I've got a lot of slides. There's one thing I have plenty of, um, Dan Strong for CCJJ and the sentencing commission. I wanna thank Representative Clancy for his work on this and for the presentation. He really, uh, hit all the points I think we would've intended to hit. So I guess I won't go over them again, but I, you know, I guess I'll just maybe emphasize we do a lot here and end up speaking on a lot of bills that have to do with penalties. And it's vitally important that we get penalties, right? Or we get elements of offenses right. But really, as Representative Clancy mentioned, probably the number one thing we could do to decrease crime or deter crime in the community is make sure people know if they do something, they're likely to get caught. And this bill boosts the needle on that. I hope we can move the needle a lot more on with other bills as well. But this is a, a great bill. Thank you.

Typically, it's A good source of relief from the legislative session.

Okay, fine. Hi, thank you for letting me speak. Um, my name is Darcy Housley. I'm from Ogden, Utah. Yeah. Um, I am, I lost my son eight years ago to a drive-by shooting. Wrong place, wrong time. And his case is a cold case. This bill needs to be passed for resources for the police department in, um, my son's case. They really could have used this. They don't have, they didn't have a cold case department. His case basically was not being worked after one whole year. They didn't have the resources. We finally got a unit put together with Weber County, with all the cities involved, but it's not still a full time investigator. And as you all know, anytime you're pulled off anything that you're reading in detail to go work on something else, you've gotta go back to the very beginning 'cause you'll forget. And, um, unfortunately, I found out many things where the resources weren't there to even send in items for DNA because they assume they may not get anything off of them due to the size. And I really feel like this bill needs to be passed so that these guys can maybe even get a, a full-time cold case investigator that's not constantly being pulled off to go to these other cases that are brand new. 'cause his case is just as important as everybody else's case. He did nothing wrong. And I'm distraught, it's destroyed my family. And I hope you guys never have to experience such a loss due to somebody else taking their life. Um, thank you for letting me speak, and

Go ahead. Marice Jones, director of the Victim Services Commission. I'm not sure that I could add much to what Ms. Housley just expressed. Um, our commission is in a support on this bill, and we do think it's critically important, not just for helping individuals like Ms. Housley family try and find peace in, in their journey and find their loved ones and be able to resolve, um, some of the millions of questions that must be going through their mind, but also in terms of public safety moving forward. Uh, whoever potentially did this in, in her situation and other situations, there's, they're still potentially out there and there may be more victims as a result of it. So we are in support of it and are very appreciative of Representative Clancy's efforts. Thank you.

behalf of the Utah Chiefs Association. Again, I don't think I can. Uh, I wish I'd went first. 'cause uh, there's nothing I'm gonna say that. Yeah, good luck. Be as Powerful as that. Um, I just wanna thank representative for the support. Um, this is an important topic. As technology has advanced, um, and crimes have become more sophisticated, and we found our departments lacking in funding to keep up with some of the technologies, the trainings, uh, the social media aspects. Um, this will go a long ways, especially in our rural departments that, that have outlying, uh, or outliers that have a smaller budget than in some of our bigger cities and bigger counties that, uh, really struggle when a crime such as this, this occurs. So, um, this, this funding would go a long way to bridge that gap and, and bring some closures to some of the crimes that, uh, our community expects the biggest response out of. And, um, there's nothing worse than being a victim of a crime when there's nothing there to help, help solve the crime and technology and training. And, uh, a lot of different advances are expensive. And in order to get across the the finish line we need, we need a little extra funding. So, again, I appreciate the time, I appreciate the support and, uh, thank you

Thank you. I move to favorably recommend House Bill 1 37 violent crime clearance rate amendments to the house floor. And we do have, uh, substitute, is that correct?

I was just saying the recommend that what hope we can recommend the first substitute. Can I amend my motion? What was correct?

Absolutely, would, would. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Okay,

I cannot even imagine, first of all, being the victim and the family of, of a victim. And I can't imagine being an officer and wanting to solve these cases and not having the funding to do that. And I can't, I I struggle to think about some of the hard cases that we have out there. There's 30, I hear 30 in Ogden alone, some of those cases in that we don't have the funding to go and catch those criminals who violent criminals who have destroyed people's lives. Not only taken lives, but destroyed the families and secondary victims in that. So, I, I just recommended this because I think it is the absolute thing that we need to do to protect our public.

Thank you. Thank you. Chair Wilcox and thank you committee. Um, I, I think Ms. Darcy said it best, right? Um, we consider it a cold case when it's gone on unsolved, or, or it's, and unable to be closed for more than, more than a year or so. Uh, but for those families, it's, it's not a cold case. Um, it's their whole world that's been turned upside down. So I would just end by saying that House Bill 1 37 shows that the, the best way to prevent violence in the future is to solve the violence today that's in front of us. And that's what we're seeking to do here. Um, and sincerely appreciate the committee's, uh, consideration.

Yes, sir. Absolutely. Okay. Whatever you would like. Um, I have a co-presenter online. It's, uh, Mr. Jason Oland from the Ninan Institute. Uh, Taylor, We, we have him. So you tell us when you want to turn that time to him and I'll do so. I'll be, I'll be very brief. Um, HP 1 37 is about, uh, violence in our communities. And the most important thing I think to recognize is that violence is a solvable and a measurable issue. So if you look at the graph on the right side of your screen, if you've ever seen the show, the Wire, um, this takes place in the western district of Baltimore, and it's can proverbially considered a quote bad neighborhood, but when you look at the data, it's not a bad neighborhood. Um, even in a area where there's significant, uh, economic hardship and different, uh, uh, challenges there, it's only 1.6% of the population within that subgroup and within that neighborhood that's committing a disproportionate share of the violence. And so the reason I highlight that is that so many times I think in the criminal justice system, we wonder, can we make an impact? And the answer is absolutely yes. Um, on the bottom left of your screen is peer reviewed study from the Department of Justice about Project Safe Neighborhoods, which is a focused deterrence enforcement, um, project where, once again, by focusing on individuals who are committing these acts of violence, you can, we can see a measurable decline. Um, the importance of certainty is very important. So you can think about when someone is do about to commit a drive-by shooting, they're about to squeeze that trigger. The question that's running through their mind, the data would, uh, uh, venture to say is, am I going to be caught much less than maybe the length of sentence? Not to say that that's not important for other public safety pieces, but in terms of crime prevention, what they're thinking about is, am I going to be caught? So, HB 1 37 is about making sure that when uh, people pull that trigger, they know that they're gonna be caught. So this is a graph I put together with, uh, Arnold Ventures and the Scan and Center. This is our Utah homicide offenses versus clearances. So the, the lighter number is the amount of, of homicides. The orange number is how many we've cleared, and there's a number of reasons for that. It could be anything from, um, lack of witness protection resources. So particularly with gang violence, you have individuals who live in a community where they might not feel safe to speak out about what they saw. There might be new technology that, um, it would be important for detectives and investigators to be trained on. So, HB 1 37 is a simple bill, but, but significantly important. It creates the violent crime clearance rate fund in CCJJ to allow, um, funds to be donated, donated, or appropriated by the legislature for the purpose of increasing our clearance rates. This will, uh, could fund cold case units. Um, there have been, uh, I'm sure everyone in this room, uh, knows a, a family that has been a impacted by a cold case. Um, it strengthens, uh, uh, detective's training. Um, and it can also go to things like the Witness Protection fund. And so the, this, the quote that I put at the bottom there is really I think what I want to end on with HB 1 37. The most effective way to prevent future violence is to solve today's violence. And that's what HP 1 37 puts us a position to do. And if it's appropriate, Mr. Chair, I'd just like to give a minute to my, my colleague and partner, Mr. Jason Olan from the Shannan Center. Lemme take this up. We're gonna promote him online right now. Um, Jason, uh, just for the record, please state your name and who you represent, and go ahead.

Uh, my name is Jason Oland. I'm the Senior Government Affairs Manager at the NIS Scann Center. Uh, Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, thank you for giving me a few moments to speak about HB 1 37 today. Um, just by way of background, NIS Scann is a nonpartisan think tank. And, uh, we do a lot of work in the criminal justice space, and we're focused on helping lawmakers use evidence to reduce crime and solve public safety problems. Utah's violent crime clearance rates since 2019 is around 53%. So what that means in practice is that if you're the victim of a violent crime in Utah, it's essentially a coin flip, whether anyone is even gonna be arrested for victimizing you. Um, those numbers, I want to be very clear, are not an indictment of Utah's law enforcement. Um, the gap here is resources, not effort. Um, as Representative Clancy said, when people are considering a violent act and they look around and see that half the time nobody's arrested for engaging in other violent acts, that helps incentivize crime, closing that gap and making apprehension for those who engage in violent crime. The expectation rather than the exception, is the single most effective lever that policy makers can pull to prevent violence before it happens. And that is exactly the goal of HB 1 37, which will direct resources where the evidence says they matter. Most investigators, forensics, technology, and victims and wit and witness services. I also want to emphasize that this legislation includes an evaluation component. So, uh, policymakers in Utah will actually be able to learn and see what is working and what's not. Um, then acan and strongly urges the committee to advance HP 1 37. And thank you very much for the time today. And, um, uh, last thing I'll say is I'm not aware, I, we have not heard any opposition to this bill, and so I would urge any supporters that are in the room today to just be, uh, as brief as possible to support the committee's. Uh, time That concludes your presentation.

Alright. Uh, thank you Chair ProAm and committee. My name is Tom Ross. I'm the Executive Director of the Commission on Criminal and Juvenile Justice. And, uh, we appreciate Representative Clancy bringing this bill forward. The CCJJ Commission supports this bill along with the Victim Services Commission. You, you may know or be aware that in May of this past year in 25, we did a presentation in the Law Enforcement Interim Committee on this very issue. And Representative Clancy is right, the more we can do to solve crime, it sends a powerful message. It is the best deterrence when we are catching people up front, and we believe this is the right direction to go for our state and and to improve our numbers. So Thank, thank you.

Yes, thank you Chair, uh, Nate Mutter, uh, coming to you from Davis County actually represent myself, uh, only because I don't know where my office or or committee I represent, uh, are, I assume they support, but I, I don't know that, uh, this is a great bill. Great idea. Anytime we can provide resources to, uh, to help solve violent crime is, is a good thing. And, uh, that's all I got. Trying to keep it short for you. Thank you. Perfect.

Yeah, thank you. Seth Stewart from American Fork, representing myself. Um, I do have concerns that this could help incentivize, uh, predictive policing. Um, I, I think that's a role that's best, best performed by the, the, the public, rather, if we're trying to analyze the causes of crime and get real independent measure of things, um, including restoring grand juries. You know, I'm a big fan of grand juries, but yeah, I just have some, uh, what many would call civil rights concerns around that, around the predictive policing, uh, prospects here. So

I, I agree with your question. I am not fully understanding the magic of the fiscal analyst. Okay. The biggest piece there is, that's what the fiscal analyst has recommended, that 250,000 would be, they would see that as success for this program. The reason that the fiscal note, the number that's in front of the legislature is zero, is because we are only creating the fund. So there's federal grants that could be, uh, appropriated here. Uh, we anticipate that if this bill passes, we'll have a significant amount of, of private donation from particularly families of homicide victims that are very supportive of this effort. As well as we have put in a request with the criminal justice Appropriations Committee for, um, three, uh, I wanna say $200,000 one time. Um, I can't, I can't speak. That's more of the, the fiscal analyst. That's what they, The money's coming from somewhere. So maybe federal, I suppose, or, and, or they're just anticipating grant, uh, uh, uh, contributions from the public. I, that's what I, what I just shared with you is what I indicated to them. So I've been up here seven years. I still can't figure these things out on these appropriations, but, alright.

Yeah, I'll recommend favorably HB 1 37 for substitute. Um, that motion is in order. Would you like to speak to it? No, I, I think, I think it's a good bill. Uh, if we can bring down the grant money, I think it'll help with, with, uh, with this important issue.

Thank you Mr. Speaker Pro tem. Over the past several years, a significant body of of research in the criminal justice field has shown that the certainty rather than the severity or other pieces of the criminal justice system are actually more important when in terms of preventing future crime. So what does that mean for us? It means that the more crime that we can solve, the more certainty that when someone is about to commit a drive-by shooting before they pull that trigger, they know they will be caught. That that is a significant investment in public safety. So House Bill 1 37 creates the violent crime clearance rate fund an opportunity for private entities, the legislature and CCJJ to direct federal grants to go to programs that solve more violent crime. When you look at Utah's homicide clearance rates, we are well above the national average when it comes to solving murders. However, there's still a gap every single year. That gap can exist for many reasons. It certainly can exist for tech technological reasons or a lack of training, but by and large, there's actually other issues, things like the Witness Protection Program or different, uh, pieces of the system that we can actually improve upon. So House Bill 1 37 doesn't enhance any penalties, doesn't create any new crimes. Rather, it makes sure that we're investing in what the data shows that the the best thing to prevent future crime is to solve today's crime. And with that, Mr. Speaker Prote, I'm happy to answer any questions. Thank

Thank you Mr. Speaker Pro tem with the sponsor yield to a question

Yes, sir. Mr. Prom, go ahead. Thank you Mr. Speaker Pro tem. On the bill alone, there are 70 accounts listed that are non lapsing. Um, not even sure how many non lapsing accounts and funds that there are in total. Just wondering if we really need to create another fund in a time where we're trying to make cuts.

Thank you for the question, Mr. Speaker Pro Tem. So the section of code my good colleague is, uh, identifying is, uh, by creating this code, it's, it's being, it, it's showing the other, uh, restricted funds that e exist in state law. So this is only hitting one puzzle piece in CCJJ. Um, so the question about cuts, I would say two things. One is I would say that we can't put a price tag on public safety. When you talk and, and, uh, and many of you have heard from victims and families of victims of violent crime, um, one, one mother, I spoke to her son, her son's case has been cold for about 10 years. So I would say the investment, the importance of that investment is paramount. But furthermore, if you look at the fiscal note on this bill, it is di minimus. And the reason for that is because by creating this fund, we actually believe that there's a significant amount of private investment that can spur and build on the good work that's already being done. And so by passing this bill, we're not, uh, it's not a specific investment. Rather it's creating the framework so that we can solve more violent crimes in the future and prevent future victims. Thank you, Mr. Speaker Prote.

I'll waive. Thank you. Mr. Speaker Prote commission

Yeah. Thank you Mr. President. So the, the, the basis of this bill and the main purpose is just increasing the likelihood that violent offenders are identified and apprehended. It creates a violent crime clearance rate fund to help Utah law enforcement agencies to solve more violent crimes and strengthen public policy. Utah's violent crime clearance rate is hovering around 53% since 2019, meaning nearly half of our violent crimes result in no arrest and one in four murders go unresolved. These outcomes are not due to a lack of effort by our law enforcement community, but rather resource constraints that limit investigative capacity. This bill supports hiring, retaining and investigators, criminal analysts, and upgrading forensic tools and strengthening victim and witness support. That's what the bill does and, and the bill sponsor also notified me, which I think is pretty awesome that there is, there is gonna be some private money that'll go into this fund as well. And, and that's what the bill does. And I'm open for questions. Thank you. Looking for questions, saying none to you for a motion. Thank you. I'm gonna waive summation and under suspension the rules. I move that this bill pass.