H.B. 152 Educational Vaccine Exemption Amendments: transcript

House Health and Human Services Committee, Jan 30, 2026

1. Committee chair33:23

   All right. We'll move to the third item on the agenda. HB 1 52. I'm sure nobody in this room is here for that one. Right. Okay. All right. Representative Lee. Okay. And I'm gonna have my counterpart takeover, so Okay. For me. So go ahead. You're good.

2. Rep. Trevor Lee33:47

   Okay. Thank you, chair. Thank you Chair. Thank you Vice Chair Monson for letting me present this bill before you today. Committee, uh, the one that I'm going to be speaking on, uh, will need to be adopted, but it's substitute two on house bill 1 52. That's the one I'll be speaking for and talking about today. Um, while there's a lot that goes into this bill, that's actually the, the crux of what I'm trying to do here is very simple, and it's, uh, a very minor change to what we currently are having in, in law. And that is, uh, if you are a parent and you would like to exempt your child from a vaccine, currently right now, you have to go through a video online that we've created, or I believe the health department created to, uh, help, uh, inform and make sure that these parents who are exempting their children, what they are exempting from with the vaccinations. Uh, after having had multiple parents reach out to me, uh, they believe this is cumbersome and is not something that they want to do. They've already done research. They feel like they understand the decision they're making for their children, uh, and wanting the exemption. And so they would like to, uh, not have that get in the way of what they want for their child's, uh, health. And so what this bill does is it, it makes it, so if you want an exemption before you go to school, uh, you don't have to watch the video, but there is a waiver and a page that you would sign online. So you don't have to go to the health department. There's no fee you'd have to pay to do that. You can just take the exemption, sign it so that you're acknowledging the school can still collect that data. And then those parents that, um, have otherwise not been convinced that they shouldn't do this or that they want to do it have already made that decision, and it's not something that gets in the way of what they want. Um, so that is the bill, and I am open for any questions from the committee.

3. Vice Chair Logan Monson (presiding)35:29

   Okay. Gotta decide Which mic to use here. Okay. Um, so now we can go to questions for clarifying questions from the committee. Representative Elison,

4. Rep. Steve Eliason35:50

   Uh, th thank you. Um, years ago, I ran a bill that extended the waiting period for an abortion from 24 to 72 hours, which included watching, uh, a video and informed consent that bill, I, um, I actually was contacted by a major newspaper outlet years later, and they attributed our declining abortion rate to that policy, in part, which I, I couldn't argue against informed consent. And the argument was made, well, people know what they're doing. Well, there was a big study pub, uh, funded by people opposed to my bill subsequent, and they went out and interviewed people who had initially gone into a clinic for the procedure. And then after the, the period and the informed consent changed their mind. And, which was very interesting to, if you don't usually have somebody fund a study about the outcomes of your bill. But, um, so I'm just, I'm concerned about this bill from a principal perspective. I ran that prior bill on informed consent and a little bit of knowledge. It can be a good thing sometimes. And so I just wanna share that example with you and, uh, anyway, thank you. Thank

5. Vice Chair Logan Monson (presiding)37:07

   You. All right, Representative Albrecht.

6. Rep. Kristen Chevrier37:12

   Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to ask the sponsor, um, how many times would a parent need to watch this video? Would they watch it one time or would they watch it one time for every child? Or what, what is the current? Yeah,

7. Rep. Trevor Lee37:28

   Currently it's for every child that you want to exempt.

8. Rep. Kristen Chevrier37:31

   Okay. So it could be if you have a lot of kids going into public school multiple times. And how long is the video

9. Rep. Trevor Lee37:37

   Anywhere from 20 to 30 minutes

10. Rep. Kristen Chevrier37:39

    Or it's not a video or it's a like a module? Correct. Okay. Thank you.

11. Vice Chair Logan Monson (presiding)37:47

    Any other questions from the committee? Um, Representative Abbott?

12. Rep. Nelson T. Abbott37:53

    Yes. I, so would your bill allow, uh, the LEA or anybody, the health department, whoever has the form to allow a link or to put up a link to the video on the form or on that page, just not require people to go to it?

13. Rep. Trevor Lee38:09

    So, uh, that's a, that's a great question. That's not currently in the bill, but I'm not opposed to doing that. If, if they, if you really want an option or a link that someone can go watch that video, I think that's fine. Uh, I'm not opposed to people getting more information. My, my whole purpose of this bill though, is that many of these parents, in fact, every single one that I've talked to has just said, this is just another step of government getting in the way of a decision and research that I've already done. And I'm yet to find a single person who has come through and said, it's changed my mind. And I'm yet to find anyone who has found anyone who has done that. So, uh, I am not opposed to that though. If we, if we feel like that could also help with, you know, more informed consent and, and you, we really want to really have people watch that video still to, to a degree. Um, so they choose. I'm okay with that.

14. Vice Chair Logan Monson (presiding)39:00

    Anything else from the committee? If yes, Representative Acton, uh, I'll, that's me, Representative Ward.

15. Rep. Raymond P. Ward39:08

    Thank you. Um, you know, thinking about informed consent, there's a lot of different things to, to think about what it means to be informed, how, how informed to be before you, uh, consent to something. Um, and there's a lot to think about with vaccines. Um, you know, each I is different, each vaccine is different. If, um, if folks have chosen to get information that is mostly negative towards vaccines, is there any role to say that they ought to have some information about what the state feels like is important, positive information about vaccines? Is there any role for that? Or if the person has chosen this other, what they feel is the information they want, you would say the state has no role to provide positive information about vaccines?

16. Rep. Trevor Lee39:52

    Yeah, no, I think that's a good point. Uh, I'm not against information getting out there. I'm not against the school still promoting to get vaccines. I'm not against the health department promoting vaccines. But what, what I'm saying is these parents have overwhelmingly decided if they want an exemption, which is not very many by the way, most, I think it's over 92%, still get a vaccine for their children. Uh, they feel like they've done that research and almost feel like it's saying that what the decision they're making is wrong on this. And it's different than in informed consent, like on the abortion side, that actually did change people, but this we're seeing is not. And so, uh, I'm okay if you still would like to get that information or, um, tell them they should have that information, but whether or not they go down that path should still be up to them. So

17. Vice Chair Logan Monson (presiding)40:36

    Thanks. Alright. Anything else from the committee? Not seeing anything? We will now go to public comment. Is there anyone in the public that would like to speak the hand handful here. Okay. Um, okay. So we are gonna, we're gonna give everyone that wants to speak two minutes. Um, if you'll just come to the, the table there, there's a paper there. We ask that you sign the sheet, and the next person come and sign while the other one's talking. Um, before you make any comments, we ask that you would please state your name and who you represent and we will get started. Alright. Go ahead. Thank you. Okay.

18. Dr. Jennifer Brinton, pediatrician41:23

    Thank you, vice chair and mad vice chair and members of the committee. I'm Dr. Jennifer Brenton, a pediatrician, and I work in two fields. I work with the most fragile kids in Utah, as well as kids who have typically have been healthy, but have gotten an illness or injury and ended up in the hospital. So I've been able to see firsthand the consequences of preventable infections in both of these communities. Both the economic issues that families have when they have to stay with kids for a long time out of, out of, you know, out of work when they have to, um, provide medical care and special things for family, for kids to go home with when they've had, um, unfortunate complications that are permanent. And often families are very surprised that these are some of the complications from these diseases. As, as Representative Lee mentioned, most families in Utah do not oppose immunizations. But when a child can't get an immunization or when a family chooses not to do that, we want to make sure that they do have full educational opportunities to know what, what decision they're making, to know how to identify an illness, to know what to do. If that happens currently on HB 1 52, sub two, the information on the form is only about what to do if there's an outbreak on your responsibilities, but it doesn't give you as detailed information as the video does. I, I, I Uintah the video myself about 15 minutes long. Pictures of the diseases, things that you can understand about it so you could know what you, what to look for with your children if there was a condition, and really have a better idea of what to expect as well. As you guys know, there are many diseases. I've been in practice for 25 years. There are diseases I never saw that are now back in Utah. Unfortunately, our community immunity is decreasing through the state and through the country. This is not the time to decrease information families have. So if we do keep, uh, HB 1 52, I would love to have these additions that Representative Abbott and others mentioned to, to put in a, a path for families to get information that they have so they can truly be informed. Consent. I want families have freedom of real information. Thank you.

19. Vice Chair Logan Monson (presiding)43:04

    Thank you. Chris Essel Tine,

20. Chris Estelstein, Utah Medical Association43:08

    Utah Medical Association. While I've never been a legislator, I understand that governing is about balancing public interest with personal rights. And that's a tough act for any of you up here to, to follow and, and to execute. And so, while the UMA understands and acknowledges and honors the right of an individual or a family to choose certain things for themselves, for example, whether to get a vaccine or not, even if you're in a public school, it is the legislature's duty to also look out for the public interest. And yes, there is already a mechanism in place to protect those personal rights to say, I don't want to get, uh, a vaccine or have my children have a vaccine. The other families whose children go to those schools also have a right to make sure that they're protected as much as possible without trampling the rights of individuals. And so to watch a video is such, or call it a module to watch something like that, is such a small thing for someone to do to help promote the public interests and the public safety of other children in the schools. So we would ask that the video stay in place and that everyone is protected, everyone's rights are protected. We also would say that while we agree that some people who make the decision not to get vaccinated are informed, educated, they really do their due diligence on both sides of the issue, we also fully agree with and acknowledge that not everyone is in that camp. And so we have to give, we have to allow for people to have that exposure to both sides of the issue. Thank you.

21. Vice Chair Logan Monson (presiding)45:10

    Thank you, Chris. Go ahead.

22. Leslie Zabriski, Mormon Women for Ethical Government45:14

    Good afternoon, and thank you for the opportunity to comment. My name is Leslie Zaki. I live in Centerville, and I am a member of Mormon Women for Ethical Government, or MWE for short. MWE is a non-partisan grassroots organization dedicated to creating a more peaceful, just and ethical world through advocacy and empowerment. One area we advocate for is family health and wellbeing. We support policies that strengthen and support healthy communities. HB 1 52 would weaken Utah's longstanding public health protection by dismantling core immunization safeguards in schools and childcare settings by removing settings or systems that prevent and respond to infectious disease outbreaks. This bill undermines tools that are designed to protect our children. Our families and community vaccine things are more than personal health choice. They are a public health intervention. The more people who are vaccinated, the safer our communities are particularly vulnerable populations such as infants, immunocompromised individuals, and those who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons. The CDC consistently finds that school vaccination requirements are associated with higher, more uniform immunity, whereas increased exemptions raise the risk of outbreaks. We should be committed to policy that encourages vaccine rates as a way to make, to strengthen our community. Utah is currently experiencing a measles outbreak with the Utah Department of Health and Human Services reporting dozens of new cases since the start of 2026. As reported by KSL, approximately 89% of individuals infected were not vaccinated. And over 60% were children. Utah has historically balanced the individual choice with community health and, um, safety. We respectfully ask you to oppose House Bill 1 42. Thank you.

23. Vice Chair Logan Monson (presiding)47:16

    Thank you, Leslie. Go ahead.

24. Gayle Ruzicka, Utah Eagle Forum47:20

    Gail Zeki with Utah Eagle Farm. Many years ago, I had a son who had a, a reaction to his vaccination. It was a very scary thing to have happened, and at that time, there was nothing that, that I had read or even knew about that said you shouldn't vaccinate and why you should, you know, what the problems were and what could even, what, um, the, the results could be. And, uh, yet every place I went, the doctor's office, the commercials on television, uh, health department, whatever, all they did was tell you why you should vaccinate and how important it was, like some of the things we've heard today, but nothing about what could happen. Nothing. I found out later that actually in the box of, for the, with the vaccine, there was a paper in there that mentioned that, but the doctors didn't tell us that A few years later, many years later, exactly that same son Uintah the junior high to take some classes. And, uh, uh, he hadn't, we never vaccinated again. So he wasn't considered, he didn't have boosters. So I got a phone call telling me to come and pick him up because he was there without having been vaccinated. And I hadn't told the school, uh, I didn't know I was supposed to, and so I had to go over and pick him up. He was sitting there in the hall and I had to bring him home. And until I got in the car and drove three, five miles to the Health Department and filled out the form and had them tell me their why, I I should have him vaccinated, he couldn't go back to school. You know, we were his parents, my his mother and father who made this decision, uh, and in the state of Utah says, you know, children are entitled to a free education, but only under certain conditions. Apparently we couldn't make the decision as a parent and just send our son to school. Instead, they sent him home. Please, uh, you know, vote for and support this today. I've worked many years on this issue. And if they wanna watch that video, they should be able to watch the video, but nobody should Yeah. Have to watch that video before their child can go to school. Thank

25. Vice Chair Logan Monson (presiding)49:25

    You. Thanks, GA. Go ahead.

26. Tate Holton, medical student49:28

    Hello, my name is Tate Colton. I'm from Spanish Fork, Utah. I'm currently a medical student at the University of Utah, but I'm here representing goalie myself in my statements. Um, it was mentioned that the burden of watching this video for education on vaccines is cumbersome. I think that it should be, and it should continue because the burden of disease from these, uh, preventable illnesses is even more cumbersome. Um, I think that we have largely forgotten many of the terrible effects of these diseases. Just as a brief recount, uh, measles, varicella, and rubella, which are vaccine preventable illnesses currently in the state of Utah, are required to go to school, can cause terrible birth defects. Measles can cause terrible neurologic symptoms. Tetanus can cause painful and fatal muscle contractions that causes, uh, loss of breathing even while the patient remains conscious. So they're aware of all of this. Um, I believe that we should continue to have the requirement to watch these videos in place so people will recognize that more cumbersome than watching the video is having one of these preventable illnesses. So I just like to voice that. I'm strongly in opposition to this bill. Thank you very much.

27. Vice Chair Logan Monson (presiding)50:42

    Thank you, Tate. Go ahead.

28. Jen Brown, Utah Citizens for the Constitution50:46

    My name is Jen Brown. I'm president of Utah Citizens for the Constitution. And I did wanna make the point that I have my degree in microbiology. I'm very aware of vaccines. I'm very aware about bacteria and viruses. But if we're gonna be talking about, you know, people need to have the knowledge so they can make the correct choice, then the, the knowledge about the vaccine adverse reactions database needs to be on there too. The VES database that talks about people that have had concerning, uh, reactions to vaccines. It's not the state's place to cherry pick what kind of information is gonna be told. And the other thing is that there is a tremendous financial incentive for different organizations to be pushing vaccines. And so oftentimes this is not neutral. Whoever's pushing health department, you know, the medical association, there's a financial incentive and that changes things. We're not saying that, you know, that person isn't sincere to wanna help people, but when there's money involved, it changes things. And so the state should not be handpicking what kind of material the parents have to watch. And I can tell you that in a lot of cases there is, there is money that is driving these kinds of things. So I definitely support the bill and have always gotten my own children vaccinated, but this should not be forced on people. Thank you.

29. Vice Chair Logan Monson (presiding)52:23

    Thank you, Jen. Go ahead.

30. Caitlyn Jasumback, Utah Public Health Association Immunization Advocacy Coalition52:27

    Hello, committee, my name is Kaitlyn Jason back, and I live in Sunset, Utah. I'm here as a representative of the Utah Public Health Association's Immunization Advocacy Coalition. Our goal is to advocate for evidence-based immunization, um, legislation to educate legislators and the public about the importance of vaccines. And we would like to speak to House Bill 1 52, substitute two, we wanna ensure public health has the ability to respond to, uh, vaccine preventable disease outbreaks to the best of our ability. This includes understanding the community level of immunity through immunizations. So we support vaccine requirements to enter the public education system. In addition, we want to make sure parents who are seeking vaccine exemptions for their child are doing so through a true informed consent process. So finding that balance between parental choice and proper, uh, medical consent and the public's health. We look forward to continuing working with the good representative on this bill. And thank you for your time and consideration representatives.

31. Vice Chair Logan Monson (presiding)53:24

    Representative Ward, did you have a question?

32. Rep. Raymond P. Ward53:25

    I, I do, and it might be for this witness, or it might be for the department that's in the room here. I'm, I have a couple of very granular questions about the nature of the video. I, in my profession, I get asked to watch a lot of training videos. Um, and, and there are a whole bunch of different ways that they kind of are put together. So do you know, or if there's someone from the department is here as you know, I, is it set up right now that you have to watch the video all the way to the end, or can you just fast forward the video all the way to the end? Because I have experienced vid other training videos that kind of go both ways in that respect. Do you, uh,

33. Caitlyn Jasumback, Utah Public Health Association Immunization Advocacy Coalition54:02

    I cannot speak to that. I have

34. Vice Chair Logan Monson (presiding)54:04

    Some, I'm, I'll take an a answer from Representative Geier.

35. Rep. Kristen Chevrier54:11

    I asked a rhetorical question earlier. I know exactly how long the video is, and yes, you have to watch it all the way to the end. You have to answer every question. So

36. Rep. Raymond P. Ward54:22

    There's questions interspersed mm-hmm. Throughout. Mm-hmm. Okay. Yes. Um, and then, and then you probably also know this one, and I don't know, so is it in fact the case that you have to have it loaded up for one particular child before you watch it? Or if you did have four or five kids Yes. That you, so

37. Rep. Kristen Chevrier54:35

    You Put in the name of the child at the beginning.

38. Rep. Raymond P. Ward54:37

    At the beginning of it. Mm-hmm. Got it. Okay.

39. Caitlyn Jasumback, Utah Public Health Association Immunization Advocacy Coalition54:40

    Is it possible for me to speak to Sure. Some of that. Go ahead. Yes. Yeah. And I, um, thank you Representative Chevre for, for being the resident expert here on this. Um, and so I think, um, one just concern that we have from a public health general perspective, um, while we understand the burden for having to redo the video or redoing the education per child, it's also important that we're able to track per child what, um, what, uh, I guess waivers or the exemptions that they have for the vaccine. So again, public health can respond to specific disease outbreaks. So that's one piece. Again, module, not module, but, um, needing to understand that from a individual perspective to be able to plan.

40. Rep. Raymond P. Ward55:21

    Thank you, Caitlyn. And then maybe even one more if I, so the video would have to be watched, um, how many times per year is it each year or is it,

41. Rep. Kristen Chevrier55:31speaker not certain

    It's a once off, and that was re As of last year. It's a one-off 4K through 12 through all the way through.

42. Vice Chair Logan Monson (presiding)55:39

    Okay. Thanks. Thank you. All right, go ahead.

43. Cindy Whinham, resident55:44

    My name is Cindy Wynne. I'm representing myself. I am that child who's allergic to vaccinations. My mother was harassed every year that I Uintah school all the way through 12th grade when 2020 hit, and I was born in 1957. When 2020 hit, I realized I had a problem because I was gonna be forced to do something that I should not do. I knew it would be harmful to me. I Uintah get my re my medical records, and it only went back as far as I was 42 years old. So any time, any medical or even school educational program says you have to have this done to your body, they have no right. They don't know every person's individual body. And I have no problem with the video. The video isn't necessary to get all the information, but the people who are on the other side of the coin also don't have all the information. So I, I speak in favor of this bill so that parents have a right to opt out and save their children if they know there's an issue. Thank you.

44. Vice Chair Logan Monson (presiding)56:45

    Thank you. Go ahead.

45. Bill Cosgrove, retired pediatrician56:48

    Uh, bill Cosgrove, I'm a retired pediatrician and, uh, have been dealing with vaccines since 1983. I'd like to address, two of the questions came up, um, when in my own office, uh, we priced the vaccines to, uh, cover the co commercial cost of the vaccines in a small, a admin, uh, administration committee just to, because we have to keep 'em in a $30,000 vaccine, uh, refrigerator. You can't keep 'em in a normal vaccine. So I don't think I, in those 34 years of practice that I ever made a dollar on vaccines, although I think I never counted up. But I know that I ordered vaccines for about 20,000 vaccines. I'd also like to make the point that in those 20,000 vaccines, the only complication that my patients ever had were mild fevers. Now the other question is who gets the decide? And, um, the, uh, a two month old obviously can't make an informed decision. So the parent has a fiduciary responsibility to make that decision for their child. But it goes beyond that because the child parent also has a sort of a fiduciary responsibility to protect the contacts of that child to protect that, um, baby next door and the child's classmate. And what we're asking is, and it seems like a small ask to have the, uh, person who's making that, um, weighty decision about a health or possibly a lethal, uh, concern for a child, and the child's contacts to at least know trust tell us that they've at least considered all of the information. And I agree with, uh, uh, Representative Shelley, they ought to hear both sides of the argument so that they can make the most fully informed, uh, concern decision. 'cause it's a weighty decision. Thank you.

46. Vice Chair Logan Monson (presiding)58:37

    Thank you. Um, so

47. Dolly, resident58:41

    I'm Dolly and I'm speaking for myself. Um, I have read and the Constitution, I have memorized a Declaration of Independence, and I believe that we all have the right parents and everyone have the right to choose whether they should vaccinate their kids when they shouldn't have to watch this whole video. It's their right, whether they should or not. So I moved to for this act.

48. Vice Chair Logan Monson (presiding)59:16

    Thank you, Dolly. Go ahead.

49. Max, epidemiologist59:22

    Hi, my name is Max. Um, I am an epidemiologist, but I am just here as a private citizen. Um, I just wanted to touch on, uh, something that, uh, I don't think has been talked about really yet. And, uh, that is the idea that I think a lot of, uh, vaccine, uh, exemptions that we see, um, are actually, uh, driven by convenience. There have been a couple studies on this, uh, showing that when you make, uh, it more convenient to get vaccines, for example, offering them in a clinic, uh, in a school, uh, vaccine exemptions go down. So there is a convenience, uh, aspect to this. And, uh, while Representative Lee, uh, is saying that he has only heard, uh, from families who are doing this for, um, you know, religious or personal beliefs, and they find the, the video to be unnecessary, uh, there is, uh, uh, a sample of the population that is, uh, not going to get vaccinated, uh, if it is more convenient, uh, to not do so. And so I think, uh, we owe it to those families who might have troubles with money, troubles with travel troubles, uh, being insured, uh, who might be considering not getting their children vaccinated because it is in fact the more convenient thing for them to do. We owe it to them to at least, uh, provide the proper information, uh, so that they, uh, can make an informed decision, uh, just like the, the parents who have, uh, personal or religious, uh, beliefs against vaccines can do. Thank you.

50. Vice Chair Logan Monson (presiding)1:00:53

    Thank you. Go ahead.

51. Krystal Cordingley, mother1:00:59

    My name is Crystal. Accordingly, I am a mother and a scientist. I am educated on both sides. I represent myself as well as a mother that is living her worst nightmare. My son was killed by vaccinations, and it was medically proven that he was killed by vaccinations. So every single time I am required to go in and I'm required to watch that video, I feel like that I'm being reprimanded because I feel like that my son's death doesn't matter. That the education that I got after his death, that I was not truly informed of, that I'm then being pushed to still try and be informed to vaccinate my children when I have a child that is dead. I don't think it is fair for these mothers that have educated themselves in the, the dangers of vaccinations as well as to know what to look for in these preventable diseases. Because of that, these mothers are wanting change. They're wanting to not feel like that they're reprimanded for making the choice, educational choice to do what they're doing for their children with, which is what they feel is best. They're not taking away vaccines at all. The children still have to get the exemption. Nothing is changing. But in order for parents to feel like that what they are doing is making an educated decision based off of what they have learned and having true informed consent on both sides, they no longer want to have to watch this video. And I shouldn't have to, every single time I have another child that enters this public school system, have to continue to watch that video in full when I'm not going to change my decision, because I feel very strongly that because one of my children has been killed by vaccinations, why wouldn't another one? So I support the change in this bill. Thank you.

52. Vice Chair Logan Monson (presiding)1:03:01

    Thank you, crystal. All right,

53. Erin Lore, physician in training1:03:05

    Go ahead. Hi, my name is Erin Lohr. I am a physician in training in pediatrics, adult psychiatry and child psychiatry at the University of Utah. But I'm representing myself. I also used to be a high school teacher. Um, very sorry for your situation, crystal. That sounds awful. Um, I do wanna reiterate that the point of this video is not, or the discussion point around the video. We're not, we're not arguing here, um, to take away someone's right to choose to vaccinate or not. And I, I don't want that point to be, uh, misrepresented. As we continue discussions, we're really discussing whether or not an educational video, which by the way, shows both sides of the argument and does discuss the vaccine side effects. It, it is in that video. Um, that's, that's what we're discussing here. And whether or not we believe that all Utahans deserve access to the same information that is researched, vetted, et cetera. Um, I think the, I think the other thing that, uh, I'd like to remind people is that you don't have to sit in your chair and be traumatized. If this is something that is traumatizing to you, like Crystal, uh, you have every, um, option to get up and walk away from the screen for a few minutes. If you would like to speed through it. No one is going to, um, you know, hold you down in your chair. So, uh, I think having that access point is essential for educating the public and to keep Utah safe. Thanks very much.

54. Vice Chair Logan Monson (presiding)1:04:35

    Thank you. We're gonna move our question from Representative Cha.

55. Rep. Kristen Chevrier1:04:41

    I would like to ask the last witness if she's actually done the module

56. Erin Lore, physician in training1:04:47

    Question. I have.

57. Rep. Kristen Chevrier1:04:48

    Okay. Thank you. Well, if you have, you know, you can't walk away to click the screen in order to get through it, and you have to read things and you have to keep going through it. You can't walk away and come back.

58. Vice Chair Logan Monson (presiding)1:05:02

    Thank you. So we're gonna move to our online comment now. We have six. We'll start with Jaden Weeks. Go to Angela Page, and then Sierra Debenham. We are first three. So Jaden, if you'll turn on your mic and your camera and start with telling us who you are and who you represent. All right. We will go to Sierra Debenham. Yeah, can you hear me? We can tell us your name and who you represent, and we'll give you two minutes.

59. Sierra Debenham, emergency medicine physician1:05:57

    Thank you. My name is Sierra Debenham. I'm an emergency medicine physician. I am representing myself. Um, I'm from Utah. I Uintah the University of Utah, and I have degrees in, uh, public health and my md From there, um, I really support the medical Freedom Movement. Um, I really support people's rights to control what goes in their own bodies and those of their children, and I absolutely think we should continue to support that. And the moms who don't wanna vaccinate their kids should be able to get exemptions. Um, but I also think that those unvaccinated kids deserve to be healthy, and they really do rely on the collective immunity of the vaccinated kids around them to help keep them healthy. So I think you do wanna keep reasonable asks in place for these parents who are very dedicated to not vaccinating their children, um, just kind of what Max, the epidemiologist said, to not make it too easy, too quick to get an exemption. You do want people who are on the fence, um, to have some kind of encouragement for vaccination, for the health of everyone in the community. Thank you. That's all.

60. Vice Chair Logan Monson (presiding)1:07:07

    Thank you. All right. We're gonna go to Angela Page online, and then Rachel Hawks would be after her. Angela, if you'll just turn, there you go. We can see you, we can hear if you'll tell us who you are and who you represent. We'll give you two minutes.

61. Angela Page, doctor of nursing practice1:07:35

    Thank you. Vice Chair Mosson and members of the committee. My name is Angela Page. I'm representing myself today. I'm a doctor of nursing practice and a pediatric nurse practitioner, a current school nurse practitioner and former school nurse, a mother of six and a grandmother of three. I'm speaking in opposition to house Bill 1 52, substitute two. And after all the discussion, I'm editing my comments because I think so much has been said, but I'm concerned about the title of this bill. Uh, while the language may focus on changes to the exemption processes, the bill is titled Public Education Immunization Requirement Appeal. I believe that weakens or dismantles the exemption safeguards. In other words, if if this bill is really only focusing on changing the exemption, it, the title of the bill should reflect that. Um, so I would make a se suggestion or a comment if this bill continues, that it addresses, uh, the name, which is to repeal the exemption, um, the exemption processes, because it sounds according to the bill and how it was wr, how it was written out that we're wanting to take vaccinations away from the school, which it sounds like that is not now the intent of the bill. So I do not support this bill, and I suggest that the individuals concerned about the exemption process work directly with the health department in, in those options rather than having a bill. Thank you.

62. Vice Chair Logan Monson (presiding)1:09:30

    Thank you. We'll move to Rachel Hawks and then Katie Olson.

63. Rachel Hawks, resident1:09:47

    Hello. Uh, I am Rachel Hawks coming from American Fork. Um, I am a concerned mother and a citizen that wanted to share my experience with, um, vaccinations and exemptions. I, um, did not go to school in Utah. I grew up in California, but there were exemptions, vaccine exemptions at my school, um, which I support as a mother. I love making dec uh, medical decisions for myself and my son. However, I did, um, experience whipping cough outbreak as a child. I did not personally get sick, but many of my peers, hi baby. Sorry, I have my son with me. Um, I had many of my peers miss, you know, five to 10 days of school. Um, thankfully no one developed serious lifelong complications, but it was very disruptive to our school year. Um, and I just, I believe that the training module is a reasonable minimum requirement for the public education of the parents, that they can know how to make the best vaccine decisions for their children, as well as know how to prevent and recognize these diseases so that they can further protect the rest of the children in the school. Thank you.

64. Vice Chair Logan Monson (presiding)1:10:53

    Thank you. All right. Let's go to Katie Olson online.

65. Katie Olsen, nurse1:11:05

    Hi. Um, I am a nurse. Katie,

66. Vice Chair Logan Monson (presiding)1:11:09

    Can you turn your camera on?

67. Katie Olsen, nurse1:11:11

    Yes. Let's see.

68. Vice Chair Logan Monson (presiding)1:11:15

    There we go. Perfect. Just tell us, hi, tell us your name and we'll give you two minutes. Thank you.

69. Katie Olsen, nurse1:11:20

    Okay. My name is Katie Olson. I've been a registered nurse for more than 30 years. Um, I've been a pediatric nurse, including working at Primary Children's Hospital. And the reason I bring that up is because I've actually taken care of babies who are very, very sick with whooping cough or pertussis, uh, which is a somewhat vaccine preventable disease. We used to have a live vaccine that worked better than the current one that we have now, but it caused a lot of high fevers with, um, more side effects. Um, one thing I would like to also point out, um, is that we had some very, uh, traumatic testimony heard by Crystal, which I sympathize with. Um, but I also want to point out the other side of that coin, which is, um, actually seeing children with diseases that have also died. Um, if you've ever seen a child struggle with whooping cough to the point where you have to go in and you have to administer oxygen to them, and you watch them turn blue and you watch them as they can't catch their breath, and you see children working, um, for a pediatrician in the office before the chicken pox vaccine came out, and you see how those chicken pox can go internally and affect their organs, affect their eyes, cause serious damage. Um, and, um, those, uh, I took care of twins in the NICU that had influenza and another vaccine preventable disease. One of the twins died. Um, that's the other side of that coin. Um, I'd like to point out two things. Um, first of all, uh, there was an assumption made at the beginning of this meeting about this bill, um, that parents have already done their research and, and that a module or video like this won't change their minds. And I wanna tell you that personally working, um, another job I had was working for the health department, Davis County Health Department for three years. I have seen mines changed. So, um, I wouldn't say that that it doesn't happen. It does. Uh, during the 2015 measles outbreak in Disneyland, um, I saw people come in that had Katie, will you

70. Vice Chair Logan Monson (presiding)1:13:28

    Wrap up? Wrap?

71. Katie Olsen, nurse1:13:29

    Okay. Yes. I'll, um, that had been previously opposed. That did change their minds when they saw measles in action, um, to get,

72. Vice Chair Logan Monson (presiding)1:13:36

    Thank you for your testimony, Katie. Appreciate it. Alright. Our last online comment is going to be Maryanne

73. Maryann Christensen, resident1:13:46

    Christen. Hi, committee. Thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to speak on this bill. I, I am in favor of the first sub that just removes the references to immunizations. And the reason being is I've done a lot of research on this, and I found out that children have better outcomes when they're not vaccinated than when they are. Um, Dr. Mosson started out with a study in 2017 and he, it was a small course cohort, but he found that that unvaccinated children had better health outcomes since then. He did a nine year study. He followed nine children up until nine years old. The study came out in January of 2025 with a cohort of 47,000 children. He found out that 300, there was a FI 358% increase in neurological disorders like autism, a DD, and learning disorders in the children who were vaccinated over the children who were not. Um, Nicholas Holser just came out with a, a study with the largest cohort so far. I don't have that number, but it came out in October of 2025. Um, 50% of children who were vaccinated ended up with chronic illnesses. Some of those might be allergies that parents might dismiss as not being related to vaccinations, but others of them are autoimmune disorders. And the neurological disorders that I mentioned before. Um, Dr. Paul Thomas recently did an and study with, uh, 3,300 children. He found out that that unvaccinated children had far fewer doctor's visits and better outcomes. So here we are with a bill that is mandating parents to see a video on why they should vaccinate their children. It's just propaganda unless we tell them also about these emerging studies that are showing your children will be healthier with less chronic diseases if they don't vaccinate. These are the scientific studies that are coming out more recently. And, um, I say we ditch the, the video and I say we go back to sub one. Thanks,

74. Vice Chair Logan Monson (presiding)1:16:07

    Marianne. Appreciate you. Thank you. All right. It looks like I jumped the gun a little bit. We'll have our last public comment here in the room. If you will, state your name and we'll give you two minutes.

75. Neil Schultz, resident1:16:19

    Thank you, Mr. Vice Chair. I appreciate the opportunity to speak and committee members. My name is Neil Schultz, and I'm speaking as a public citizen. Um, I've studied vaccines for 16 years and, and that's due to a diagnosis that was given to me, uh, almost 17 years ago where I had to take my health extremely seriously. Um, for many years we've been listening to the, the, the phrase that vaccines are safe and effective and, and basically that's what's been known as informed consent, I think today. Uh, and Maryanne referenced that, that informed consent comes in really digging behind what is we've been traditionally been called safe and effective. Uh, she referenced Dr. Paul Stu Thomas's study that you can find in his new book, VAX Facts, where he did study 10,500 children and found that the unvaccinated children were far healthier. And there's another study out there called an Inconvenience study, which, um, in included 18,000, uh, over 18,000 children with the same conclusion that the unvaccinated children were far more healthier. Um, several points have been made here this morning or this afternoon about the medical association. Often say, um, protect other children. I don't, we have to dissect that a little bit closer because if they've been vaccinated, are they not already protected? So I don't understand why anyone would have a concern about an unvaccinated child that just doesn't make sense. When we talk about real informed consent, what we know is, is these mothers, these parents know more about vaccines than oftentimes the pediatrician's giving them. For instance, most of the doctors, most of the people that I talk to don't know that a side effect, excuse me, an adverse reaction listed on the MMR vaccine insert is in fact measles. And it's things like that we need to bring to attention. So I appreciate listening. Thank you for the opportunity.

76. Vice Chair Logan Monson (presiding)1:18:27

    Thank you, Neil. Appreciate it. Alright, let's go back to the committee for discussion on the bill. Scene none. Oh, Representative Gricius online.

77. Rep. Stephanie Gricius1:18:47

    Thank you. I would make a motion that we would adopt. Is it the second sub?

78. Vice Chair Logan Monson (presiding)1:18:52

    Yes. Yeah, the second, second sub was, yep. Okay. So I have a motion by representative gracious to adopt the second sub. Is there any discussion to that motion? Um, to the bill sponsor?

79. Rep. Trevor Lee1:19:08

    Yeah, I definitely wanna adopt the sub, so definitely support that motion

80. Vice Chair Logan Monson (presiding)1:19:12

    To the committee for discussion on the motion. Um, and then to the maker of the motion.

81. Rep. Stephanie Gricius1:19:22

    Um, and my discussions with, um, some officials from the health department earlier today, it sounds like that's a compromise that was worked out between the parties and I think it's a path forward.

82. Vice Chair Logan Monson (presiding)1:19:35

    Okay. Thank you. So the motion is to, um, adopt the second sub on house bill 1 52. All in favor of that motion, say aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Any of the opposed say no. That motion carries. Um, representative gracious, did you have, did you wanna continue?

83. Rep. Stephanie Gricius1:19:59

    Yes, I'd like to, yes, I'd move that we, we, um, pass this forward with a favorable recommendation and I'd like to speak to that.

84. Vice Chair Logan Monson (presiding)1:20:08

    Okay. So, representative Gracious has made a motion to pass out, um, second sub house bill 1 52 with a favorable motion, and we will let her speak to, or Yeah, go ahead and speak to that.

85. Rep. Stephanie Gricius1:20:23

    Thank you Mr. Vice Chair. Um, we heard a lot about, you know, parents who are wanting to exempt or opt out of vaccines, um, needing to have information from both sides. And personally, I am team, do whatever you think is best for your children. I don't have a dog in that fight as long as we all get to make our own choices. But one thing I found really interesting listening to the public comment is I don't think I heard any comments saying that they provide information about the adverse reactions. I don't believe that they tell you vaccine manufacturers are exempt from lawsuits. They don't tell you that there's a vaccine adverse reaction database, um, and all sorts of different things when you're in a doctor's office. So you're not getting both sides. So all of this conversation about getting both sides of the information really only seem to apply when we're talking about exemptions we're, it doesn't happen the other direction. I've never had a pediatrician and I have five kids. I've never had a pediatrician tell me, if you get this vaccine, you know, there could be all of these various reactions. Here's the database, you can look at it and if something happens, you can't sue. Um, so I, I don't really feel like this is just trying to get balance information. I really see it as just one more thing that we as a state are doing to try to push one perspective. And for me, it really is about what the parent thinks is best for their child. And so I do hope that you'll support this bill in this current version. Thanks.

86. Vice Chair Logan Monson (presiding)1:21:55

    Thank you rep, um, to the bill sponsor?

87. Rep. Trevor Lee1:22:00

    Yes. Thank you Mr. Vice Chair. And, uh, I support that motion. And would like to maybe just touch on a couple things here that we have heard today. Uh, you know, I'm very fully, fully aware, uh, how this can be an emotional, uh, type discussion that we're having. And I really did want to keep it away from whether you agree or disagree with vaccines more along the lines of parents that are making these decisions. This is just an obstacle that is getting in their way. You know, we talk a lot about informed consent, but if we do wanna talk about that, the video does not clearly go through all of the adverse side effects that you could have from a vaccine that is pure real consent that we talk about if we want it to be equal on both sides. But one of the reasons I believe you don't get that in a video is because these people are already there to say, I don't want a vaccine for my child. And that doesn't help the cause and the purpose of the video. So it is much more one sided with the information you get on that. Uh, with that being said, you know, I support that motion if parents want to do this or not. Um, I don't think this will change outcomes from how many will get a vaccine or not. You still have to go through a much greater effort to exempt your kid even with just this online form than having to go in. That's proven by how many go out and get a vaccine with over 90% of the kids getting a vaccine within our state already. And so I just think this is an added layer of government red tape that is getting in the way of parents who currently say, I don't want a vaccine. I've done that research. Please don't force me to do this. So thank you.

88. Vice Chair Logan Monson (presiding)1:23:20

    Thank you to the committee for discussion on the motion Representative Acton.

89. Rep. Cheryl K. Acton1:23:28

    Um, thank you. Um, Mr. Vice Chair, um, like one of the video commenters said, um, I do support the health freedom. I think health through, they've done so many great things already. Um, and I value freedom generally speak, you know, I mean, it's like the most important thing, but I am satisfied. So when I learned about this bill, I looked to see what the current status is and the exemptions that we have. And we have great exemptions in the law for medical, religious, or personal reasons we can exempt. And I think that's very important. But I also believe in informed consent. And although this informed consent is inconvenient, um, at times, I think it's still very important. Um, one of the, another video comment or talked about witnessing, um, the death of a child or afflicted with one of these illnesses. And I think it's, it's really important that we do what we can to prevent illnesses, especially in young children. And, and so I, I will be voting against this motion. Thank you.

90. Vice Chair Logan Monson (presiding)1:24:40

    Further discussion from the committee. Representative Shelley.

91. Rep. Troy Shelley1:24:45

    Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would just like to underscore that the module is not, um, it does not give you the full picture. I actually went through the module, screenshotted every slide, and then went through and wrote a 12 page rebuttal to the module. It does not give the full story. It's not informed consent. And, um, for that reason, I will vote yes.

92. Vice Chair Logan Monson (presiding)1:25:14

    Any further discussion from the committee.

93. Rep. Logan Monson1:25:17

    I do have a, a question that maybe the sponsor can help me clarify in, in the bill, is there, are we, are we taking out the piece that health departments would be able to track? This is, is that still there? Is this, is this going away? If you could speak to that a little.

94. Rep. Trevor Lee1:25:33

    Yeah. On, on the first sub, we were gonna take that part out, but after discussing and speaking to a lot of the medical community, I felt like that is still some pertinent data that they could use. And, and I'm okay with that. So it is back in the bill at this point. Okay.

95. Vice Chair Logan Monson (presiding)1:25:47

    Thank you. Um, okay. So we have Representative Fitz Mannu.

96. Rep. Jake Fitisemanu1:25:53

    Thank you. I just wanna thank everyone for the comments and feedback and the critiques, uh, and the concept. I do wanna let the sponsor, uh, and my fellow committee members know that, that, um, this was something that I took very seriously. Um, my wife and I actually both, uh, together completed, uh, the exemption training as, uh, representative Chevre and others have mentioned. It took me, uh, took us 16 minutes. There were seven quiz questions. And, um, I actually, uh, would say that there could be maybe some more depth, uh, definitely, or maybe some more specifics in some of those, uh, presentations. And I think that's a critique that would be, uh, for any kind of training that is trying to fit, um, what could be complicated discussions into a, uh, user friendly third grade literacy level, um, type of module. Um, and so with that, however, uh, I would say that I feel, uh, in terms of greater good that, uh, that inconvenience, uh, even as I acknowledge that maybe inconvenience is a callous word for folks who, uh, have had very, um, emotional and traumatic experiences in this area, uh, that in terms of cost benefit and, uh, greater good, I would still be, um, against this, uh, motion.

97. Vice Chair Logan Monson (presiding)1:27:08

    Thank you Representative Zi scene. No, um, further discussion from the committee. We'll move to a vote on the motion. Oh, we have on, oh yeah. So the representative, representative gracious the maker of the motion Canum.

98. Rep. Stephanie Gricius1:27:27

    Thank you, Mr. Vice Chair. I just, we are talking a lot about informed consent. Usually you give consent prior to a medical procedure, not prior to declining a medical procedure. I really feel like this is something every family can decide with their pediatrician. I don't feel like we as a state really have any business going and telling parents what's best for their children. We very much enshrine the fact that parents know what's best for their children here in Utah. And I'd like to see that continue. So I'd appreciate support. Thanks.

99. Vice Chair Logan Monson (presiding)1:27:56

    Alright, now we will move to a, a vote on the motion. The motion is that we pass out with a favorable recommendation, um, second sub house bill 1 52, and we will move to a roll call. Vote. Representative Ward, no. Representative Hollins? No representative. Gracious. Yes. Representative Fitsu Manu. No. Representative Eliason? No. Representative. Dailey-Provost? No. So before we, um, Representative Shelley. Representative Bolinder? Yes. Representative Barlow? Yes. Representative Acton? No. Representative Abbott Chair sson? Yes. Alright. So that motion fails with six, four and six against Representative Acton Daley. Provo, Elon, Fitz Hollands, and Ward as our no votes. All right. So we will move to our next agenda item if I can find the agenda.