H.B. 153 Law Enforcement Officer Employment Amendments: transcript

So we spend a lot of time up here debating public policy. Uh, most of the time our law enforcement professionals get it right. Sometimes they get it wrong. Quite often they get it right, but the decisions they make and the actions they have to take can actually be quite ugly in the public eye. And while we would like to think that politics doesn't play a part in public safety, it's unfortunate that it does. We're down here discussing it every day. And so sometimes officers do the right thing, and as ugly as it may be, it's still the right thing. But politics gets involved and they sometimes find themselves disciplined, or an officer may be rightfully disciplined for a decision, but the discipline is not carried out in an appropriate way. And what we found is, although there is, uh, some code as it relates to, uh, officer discipline, uh, in the statute, it can be different from say, cities of a different class, counties of a different size. Um, some agencies are following what we call louder mill to the, to the letter. Other agencies aren't following it at all. And so what we did over the, over the interim is we, um, created a due process bill that really codifies what we call louder mill. It doesn't change anything that the cities and the counties are doing at a minimum, but what we do say is at a minimum when it comes to officer discipline, this is what you're going to do as an organization. And that's really what this bill does.

Yeah. Might be the last time I present in this committee and I I'd like a challenge. Yeah, I Was a little nervous When there, I'll transfer a few bill files to you, Matt. I'm good. I'm Good. My name's Brad Bishop. I'm the chief of the Payson City Police Department, as well as the President of the Utah Chiefs Association. I'd like, like to thank, uh, Representative Gwynn for, uh, bringing this, this legislation forward. As you know, we, we, uh, have a hard job and, and we wanna protect our, our, uh, officers in any way we can and even so doing in the, in the discipline process. So, um, this does clarify some things that, that, uh, uh, Representative Gwynn and I have spoke about many times over the last several months. But, uh, we just wanna offer our support for this, this legislation. And, uh, uh, thank you for your time. Thank you.

Thank you. Chair committee. Nate Mutter, uh, chair of the Law Enforcement Legislative Committee. Uh, and we urge the support of the bill. Um, I don't want to repeat what's been said, but, uh, the LALC is made up of administrators and as voting members. And then the non-voting members are administrators, and we have anywhere from 50 to 60 chiefs, sheriffs and so on, uh, show up to these meetings, uh, every week. And there's support for the bill by the administrators that this bill affects and, uh, that, that should say something. So, uh, certainly urges the support. Thank you.

A chair committee. Uh, Scott Stevenson, executive Director of the Fraternal Order of Police. Um, I just want to commend Representative Gwynn, uh, for his efforts. This has been the, the topic has received intense discussion over the last several years. And finally trying to get it passed is, is, is quite an accomplishment. Um, but I appreciate all the efforts of this body and, and encourage a, a favorable recommendation to move this thing forward to the floor. Thank you.

Mr. Chair, if I may we have an amendment we need to adopt?

Do you have the language of the amendment right here that I need to read or I just say it?

I moved to adopt That's Right. Amendment one for house bill 1 53 as written.

I'll waive. Okay.

Yes. I learned a new word in this process. It's called the remuneration. Not to be confused with remuneration. They're not the same. I don't even know if remuneration is a word, but remuneration is, I think that's something you might have done as a teenager. Yeah. Anyway, uh, the reason that is important is because the majority of agencies in the state of Utah are smaller agencies. And so they transfer personnel from one division to another. And those transfers are not promotions and they're often carried out when discipline is not being dulled out. And so what the amendment does is it says, as an agency, uh, this does not apply when you're transferring an employee for non-disciplinary related purposes. And that's important for this bill.

Would you like to keep going Representative Shepherd? I Really would. Thank you. I move that we favorably recommend House Bill 1 53 as amended law enforcement officer employment amendments to the house floor.

Representative. Gwynn, I've Said enough today. Thanks, Representative Shepherd Waive.

Wait, did I just Thank, thank you, Mr. Chair. So, house Bill 1 53 is a officer due process bill, and the reason this has come to light is over the last several years, um, line staff have felt that politics may have infiltrated, um, their line of work in so much that they would make decisions that were maybe unpopular or they would take action that while looked ugly was lawful. And throughout the state, we're learning that incidents of discipline are being treated differently. Now, what is supposed to happen is when officers being disciplined, they're supposed to be going what's through what's called a louder mill hearing. And so essentially what we're doing is we're saying, okay, agencies in the state of Utah, regardless of size, regardless of county, regardless whether you're a municipal agency or sheriff's office, anytime you're gonna discipline an officer, you have to go through the loudermill process. They're supposed to be doing it. We're hearing they're not. And so what we're saying through this bill is we're just codifying loudermill. And at a minimum, these are the steps that agencies have to take when disciplining officers. That's all this bill does, Mr. Chair.

Does conclude my presentation. Okay.

Holdaway. Oh, sorry. Be very quick. I just want to, uh, I'm Corey Holdaway representing the Utah Public Employees Association. We want to thank, uh, Representative Gwynn, uh, for the clarification and, and recognizing, uh, some of the challenges with regard to, uh, the, the politics not in, uh, being part of, uh, disciplinary actions. And we see this bill as a positive would ask for your support.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the time. I'll be brief. We appreciate Representative Gwynn bringing this, uh, legislation forward. As he has mentioned this, uh, this stu process language has been brought before the legislature over the last few years, and there've been back and forth between labor groups and administrators. Most law enforcement agencies in Utah have been following the louder mill, uh, process. But this quantifies in code that makes it, uh, makes it that everyone in across the state, uh, should abide by those, by those rules. Uh, last year we had language that that came in late and, uh, Representative Gwynn and, and, uh, all parties that were, um, involved were brought to a consensus over the interim. And, and we appreciate his work on this, we would urge support of the bill.

Thank you. Chair committee. Nate Mutter, uh, chair of the Law Enforcement Legislative Committee. And, uh, just for the committee's knowledge, because of the previous presentation, I found $40. So thank you. Um, the, uh, the, the LELC, uh, definitely urges the support of this bill. Uh, representative GW was great to work with in the interim to, uh, you know, bring all the stakeholders together and, uh, come up with the bill that's before you. Uh, we certainly appreciate his diligence there and, and urge the committee support. Thank you.

You. Move that we favorably recommend House Bill 1 53.

I think it's a good bill. Okay. Good.

It is a great bill. Great Bill. It's, uh, to upgrade, uh, continue, uh, I'll call it.

consideration matter. Meeting Clerk House Bill 1 53, law Enforcement Officer. Employment Amendments by Representative Gwynn. This bill was heard in law enforcement and criminal justice with the vote of 9 0 2 Representative Gwynn.

Thank you Mr. Speaker. Pro tem, uh, colleagues, this is a, uh, officer due process. Bill. Uh, we expect our officers to go out and do their jobs absent the influence of politics. That's our roles, that's the roles of their administrators, their city councils, commission, what have you. Unfortunately, some of the job that they do, while lawful may appear or sound ugly, and there are times where politics interferes and officers may or may not get due process based on their behavior even though it may be lawful. Now, that's not to say that they shouldn't be held accountable when they violate statute, when they violate constitutional rights, when they violate policy, they absolutely should. That's why this bill comes into play. So to make sure that our officers are not being interfered with as it relates to politics, they have been afforded a right to due process through what's called Lauder Mill. And what I've learned over the last several years down here is that some agencies are really good at providing due process for their officers and some may not be. And it may depend on the size and staffing capabilities of a, of a city or a county. Uh, it may depend on culture as to whether or not they're getting those due process rights. So all this bill does, it says, look at a minimum, any agency at the state of Utah has to conform to this statute as it relates to due process. And really all we're doing is we're codifying louder mill that we're not reinventing the wheel, we're just putting a place in code where agencies can go to a one stop shop, if you will. That outlines what an agency must do when determining whether or not they're gonna be terminating employee. That's all this bill does. Mr. Speaker ProAm.

Thank you Mr. Speaker ProAm. I just want to rise in support and, and applaud the good sponsor for his work on this. This is, um, something that has been in the works for a while that he has, um, really led the charge out on. And I know in working really closely with the Fraternal Order Police last year, this is something that was really important to them to ensure that their officers who are putting their lives on the line have the right to due process. And so codifying the louder mill, um, standards, um, just makes complete sense, uh, in this case and ensures that our officers get that right to due process when there's a disciplinary action. I urge it. Support. Thank you.

Thank you. Speaker ProAm, would the sponsor yield to a question please? Sponsor yield? Yes, Go Ahead. Thank you, Mr. Speaker ProAm, I just wanted some clarification on line 82. I'm, I, I to understand that I I will just, firstly, I want to say that I am in favor of due process. I believe in that and I'm grateful for that. I just want to know, um, if the part in line 82 kind of refers to the fact that any member that's, um, in civil service, it doesn't apply to them, it just applies to law enforcement officers and no one else in the civil service.

That's actually a really good question, Mr. Speaker Pro tem. So it does not limit the rights of any other civil service employee. In fact, while negotiating this bill, we had several groups come up out to us and ask us if they be could be included. And what we're saying is this is the bare minimum that an agency has to provide to their public safety personnel. It does not prohibit any entity from providing this to all of their employees or more. We're just saying this is the bare minimum that they have to apply to their law enforcement personnel.

Thank you very much. I rise in support of this building. Thank you, Mr. Speaker ProAm.

I appreciate my good colleagues' comments and I'd appreciate the support. Thanks.

You. This is a straightforward bill where we, where we provide some due process for some of our law enforcement officials. It establishes a minimum due process standard before a municipality may suspend a law enforcement officer for more than two days. The purpose of this bill is to ensure that serious disciplinary decisions are made with full information and just basic procedural fairness. Um, to me this is just a bill about due process and I think, I think we owe it to our law enforcement officials. Oftentimes they, they get into some pretty contentious issues and, and I think they deserve that due process. With that, I'm open for questions.

you. I move that this bill pass

Brammer. Thank you. Uh, this