H.B. 181 Uniform Estate Planning Amendments: transcript

So, in previous years, we've enacted legislation which allows electronic signatures on contracts, and we've enacted legislation which allows electronic signatures on wills. This is a Uniform law commission, a bill that, uh, allows electronic signatures on non testamentary estate planning documents. And, uh, that concludes my presentation. I'm happy to answer any questions.

I, I move that we favorably recommend HB 180 1 Uniform Estate Planning Amendments.

We probably had, Well, you've got one member that votes no on everything, so, no, it was Unanimous committee.

Sure. Uh, motion to place on consent.

Please proceed. All right. Thank you, Madam Chair. So, um, I, at my office in Provo, I have these decorations on the walls, which are deeds from, that were made in England in the late 17 hundreds. And it's, I, I kind of think they're cool. So that's why I bought 'em and put 'em up on my wall. But what they are is they're written on vellum, which is a sheep skin, obviously. It's done with like a quill and ink. And then in order to make it official, the people have to sign it or put down their mark, and then they have various stamps. So each person, in addition to their signature, they have a stamp and they put, they put it in wax, and they put that on the, or they put the wax on the vellum, and then they stamp it. And then to prove that they paid their tax, they have a separate stamp, which is a different color to prove that they actually paid the tax to the government to make that deed. So I tell that story because times have changed. We do things quite a bit differently, and it's evolved over the years. And we went from that to just plain paper, normal signatures, et cetera, et cetera. Now we are in the electronics age, so over the past, um, not too many years, 20 years maybe, we've gone from, we've added to our code A the possibility of making contracts digitally. So rather than people printing it out on a piece of paper and then signing it, they do it electronically through DocuSign, Adobe, you know, there's a lot of products out there that allow people to do that. There's a ton of them. Uh, we, a couple years ago, we adopted a statute that allowed people to actually do their wills that way. Um, the Uniform Law Commission came out and said, well, let's tackle one more thing, and that is non testament, non testamentary. I'm having a hard time saying that it's not an easy word. Non testamentary estate planning documents. So these would things be things like powers, attorney, um, medical directives, uh, those types of documents, trusts, certificates of trust. Let's create a law that will, uh, allow people to put electronic signatures and even electronic notaries on those types of documents. And, um, they don't have to then, you know, print out the trust and sign it. You can do all of that electronically. So that's what HB 180 1 does, is it's the Uniform Law Commission's recommendation for those types of documents and how we can make those, uh, legally valid even when they're done electronically. And so that's my presentation, and I'm happy to take any questions. All right. Thank you, representative. Alright, we'll come back to the committee for discussion or questions. Representative Boxier.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Um, I was wondering if we could get kind of like a walkthrough of exactly what that looks like. Um, I know just from a few situations that I've heard about, um, when people need to verify things, there's still a way to kind of counterfeit it. And so I'm just wondering how this will stop that.

So that's a good question, and I'm not sure I'm a hundred percent qualified to answer that, but there's, there is a concern of counterfeiting, and if you read through the bill, it'll say, uh, um, it's not quite as stringent as it is for wills. The problem with wills is when you try and validate the document, the person who signed it is dead, right? So it's really hard to go back and get testimony on these types of documents. Oftentimes, the person's still alive, not always, but oftentimes. And so there's possibility, you know, to fight counterfeit, there could be some oral testimony taken as to whether this is counterfeited or not. Um, but the reality of it is forgeries have been around and paper documents can be forged with the electronic signatures. When they use these commercial services that do that, they have a very robust security arrangement to ensure that the chances of counterfeiting it are less. Okay. But I wouldn't, I'm not gonna be un unrealistic and say there's no chance of a counterfeit, but I'm, I I, my gut feeling is it's probably lower than with paper documents, the chance of counterfeiting an electronic signature. But anyway, I hope that answers your question. I don't know if it does, but Could be just a follow up.

So, um, I guess, I mean, I like the idea of it. I just, I know that we've seen people who have been in the middle of trying to do a wire transfer or something and, and they will have been going back and forth with the legitimate business, and then all of a sudden when it's actually time to do the money, then something happens and it gets sent to the wrong place. So with deep fakes and AI and all of these things, you know, it, it does make me somewhat nervous to see what could be added and to verify some of these things, and then actually harder to fight on the back end, um, with just some of the technology we have. But I, I think anything that, um, I, I think this will probably be a conversation for many years as technology develops, but that is just something on my mind. But I, I think it is good to be able to, you know, have these options as well.

Yeah. And I think you're, you have a valid concern, right? And I think over the years, the technology will hopefully improve and, but I think the technology is actually pretty good today. Um, but the, the convenience people get from the electronic documents is really good. So, for example, in my office, there's an attorney who does estate planning, and the people always have to come physically into the office to sign their trusts. And if you're living in a rural area or whatever, it's just not convenient. And so to be able to do that electronically, remotely is a huge convenience to people. So

Thank you.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Uh, my name is Danny Fine. I'm an estate planning attorney, uh, based in Summit County. Uh, I've designed my practice to be completely virtual for a number of reasons. Uh, one, to make my services as affordable as possible. Um, in general, estate planning services, like most legal services, are very expensive and tend to be out of reach, uh, for many citizens of Utah. Um, I also designed my practice to be virtual in order to be more convenient. Um, if you're a working family, a working person who, you know, works normal business hours, uh, as the representative mentioned, um, typically you have to go into an attorney's office. Often that is inconvenient, requires taking time off of work. Or if you're in a rural area, there may not be a local attorney to go to. Um, so I've set up my practice in a way where I can work with clients throughout the state no matter where they are. Um, I've been able to, uh, design my fees so that I'm significantly less expensive than many attorneys who have the overhead costs, uh, related to maintaining an office and office staff. However, the one piece of my service that requires some in-person component is signing documents and not signing the will. Um, as the representative mentioned, I believe, uh, the Utah legislature passed the electronic Wills Act back in 2020. Um, we were the first state to pass it, and I believe that the intention then may have been to include these other estate planning documents at the same time. Um, the Uniform Law Commission in putting forward this new bill, kind of described it as, uh, you know, addressing a, a potential, um, uh, mistake in in the original bill. Um, for me, uh, what it means at the moment is that I send three notaries, three mobile notaries to each client's home. Um, I can speak a little bit as far, uh, to security and things along those lines. Sure. That in my experience, um, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Your time is up. If you could just wrap up your Confidence. Sure. Absolutely. So, so the result of this bill for me would be to be able to lower my, uh, fees significantly for clients, um, and to be able to make the experience more, more convenient and hopefully help more Utah citizens, uh, have an estate plan. Thank you.

I motion to pass out.

Okay. Yeah. Um, I, motion to amend, move the amendment. Alright.

Um, I will yield my time to the sponsor.

Okay. I motion to pass out favorably HB 180 1 to the house floor.

Uh, no thank you. I've already spoken a lot today, sorry.

Thank you Mr. Speaker. So in previous years, we've uh, passed bills that allow contracts to be signed electronically and we've also passed a separate bill that allows wills to be signed electronically. This bill adds non testamentary estate planning documents to the list of, uh, things that can be signed electronically in our state. The language of this bill comes from the Uniform Law Commission. And with that I am happy to answer any questions.

Thank you Mr. Speaker. I'm just wondering if there's any problem with, um, signing these kinds of documents electronically, um, and forgery or misrepresentation, anything like that? Representative will you yield to a question? Sorry.

Thank you Mr. Speaker. I am wondering if there is any problem with doing electronic signatures and possible misrepresentation or forgery?

Yes, I, I, Mr. Speaker, the, I would like to say no, there's no possibility of forgery. However, with any document, whether it's a wet signature, an electronic signature, there's always a possibility of forgery. In my opinion. I think the possibility of forgery is probably lower with electronic signatures because there's more safeguards in place than, for example, wet signature. But, uh, I, I, I think so. I think the possibility of forgery or uh, fraudulent signature is low, but I can't say it's zero.

I'll waive Summation has been waived.

Thank you Mr. President. So this bill enacts the Uniform Electronic Estate Planning Documents Act. This comes from the Uniform Law Commission. The, the biggest part of this bill is just adding, adding electronic signature. And that brings you uniformity with the state, state of Utah, with other states that have adopted this act through the Uniform Law Commission. Would that, I would move that this Bill pass.

Senator Harper, Thank you. Over the last several years, we've done a lot to, uh,