H.B. 195 Precious Metals Amendments: transcript

Thank. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Let's, do I need to hit this Or No, just pull up, pull up closer to your face. All right. There we go. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, in honor of our former colleague, representative, now, Senator Stratton, I brought a can of peaches that, uh, has a little hideaway thing, and, uh, if you promise to not stick it in any bags, I'll pass some of these around and you can, you can just see. And then, uh, I also have a handout. Mr. Chairman, if I might know if you would take that, please. Oh, thank you. Yes, you can pass that out. So, um, what's being passed around will give you an idea of the importance of HB 91 95. Uh, we've all heard and seen the news. We had this bill that we ran in in past last year. Gold has overtaken, uh, even US treasuries as the number one foreign reserve for all foreign countries. So everyone outside of the United States, their number one reserve asset is gold, not dollars. And, and it's going up very rapidly. There are many, many companies, I had a slide I didn't have time to hook up, but Tether just recently announced a blockchain gold payment system backed by $42 billion stock of gold. We've identified about 15 different companies so far that have various forms of transactional gold payment systems. So you don't have to break off a fleck, you don't have to scrape with your knife, you don't have to, you know, clip coins. You simply have an app on your phone that is allocated to physical gold. The reason for the bill then is it allows vendors and service providers to the state the option, the choice of saying, we'd rather be paid in gold and silver than dollars because our dollars are devaluing at five to 10% or more per year. We'd like to be paid in gold. And it allows a very simple process where the state simply allocates dollars into the account for the app and transmits dollars, and the recipient receives gold. And then it, if passed its prologue as it has been for the last 26 years. It goes up into the right. And the value of dollars is going down into the right because we have a $39 trillion debt. And, and the money supply is going up. And the value of gold is almost one-to-one correlation with the, uh, supply of money and, and, uh, the national debt. So this bill's very simple. It puts a RFP process open public transparent RFP process to solicit to the vendors that are already out existing doing this. And then the state sets standards. If the state is going to use this to pay vendors, we want it vaulted in Utah, we want it to be audited and insured, and we can have Representative Daily Provo go and hold it again. Right? But it's important that, that the state is responsible for trust. The state also has a role in taxation. Uh, when, when President Nixon took us off the gold standard in 1971, the IRS, just as a matter of code, started taxing gold as a collectible instead of treating it as money, as the Constitution tells us. The final thing that the state has a very substantial role in is tying the governor's, the government's hands, the federal government's hands, some call it tyranny. The reason that Article one, section 10 of the Constitution says, no state shall make anything but gold and silver legal tender in payment of debt, is because they knew if you didn't have a fixed standard for government, they would inflate the currency. It's been done throughout history. And our founders said, no, we don't want that to happen. Five states have already passed similar legislation. We passed ours last year. Five other states, Florida, Texas, Louisiana, Arkansas, Missouri, have passed similar legislation states together, as we know from our federalism commission, have the ability and the duty to be the check to the federal government. What more important thing than money where we help people preserve the purchasing power of their earnings and savings? Without, I'd like to turn some time over to, uh, our good treasurer.

Thank you, uh, Representative Ivory and good afternoon, chair Lyon and Vice Chair Lyon. I'm just gonna make my comments brief. I think, uh, Representative Ivory covered things quite nicely. Um, importantly, the premise of this legislation is not that gold replaces the dollar. Rather, it supports limited optional transactional use of precious metals to expand citizen choice without creating risk or complexity for the state. So HB 1 95 authorizes the Treasurer's office to conduct a transparent, competitive procurement to the allow the state to transfer funds to one or more existing third party precious metals backed payment platforms that meet the requirements fleshed out in the procurement process. Um, and people ask me, why, why does the state need to be involved in all this? There's really two important reasons. One is the tax treatment as, uh, Representative Ivory, uh, touched on, um, gold is classified as a collectible now. Um, and if it's being used as money, uh, that really isn't appropriate. And so having state involvement, uh, gives us, um, the ability to more meaningfully engage federal policy makers on this issue. And second, state involvement supports infrastructure and trust. So by ensuring that precious metals, precious metals used in the, these transactions are securely vaulted in Utah, independently audited, insured, and held under clear legal standards, the state helps create a trusted foundation that private actors can build on. Um, finally, the, it is contemplated that it would be any number of platforms that meet the requirements of the procurement process. So it wouldn't just be one, uh, vendor necessarily, or one, one platform. So with that, Thank you Treasurer, uh, you, you, you all probably received the same email that I did, and hopefully you saw the response that I sent to them last night. It was a company that Treasure Oaks and I met with after we passed 3 48 that allowed us to invest, uh, part of the rainy day fund in Gold. And, and we met with them. They have a depository in Idaho. And all of the email, well, many of the emails that you got and that I've seen come from the same source. And they say this is a public-private partnership, and this is interfering in the private market as if the state acquiring a service is a public-private partnership. I mean, we have bank accounts. This is really the same type of thing. It's not a partnership, it's a service that we would acquire. It's not interfering in the private market. We engage in the private market all the time, and I would think our citizens would want us to get the most value for the money, which per paying in gold and silver, uh, would allow us to do that. Uh, one last thing I'd just direct your attention to, and if you'd like, we can get you a copy of this book. We have a really fascinating history with gold in Utah. It's one of our top exports. In fact, it had been the top export for quite a number of years. It's also one of our topics. It imports. We refined the gold from other states. Um, in fact, in our early days of our state, it saved our state. When the pioneers first came here, they didn't have a trade surplus. And Brigham Young sent apostles out to California to collect tithing. The Mormon Battalion were one of the ones that struck gold in California, and he sent them there to collect tithing, and they minted it into coins that they called Mormon Gold. And that was the way that we actually had a hard currency trade surplus for the first decade that allowed us to get equipment from back east that they would take money from. So we believe that it has a very, uh, uh, favorable positive role in our future and, uh, to, to set that going forward. With that, Mr. Chairman, I'd be happy to answer any questions.

Uh, thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, so representative, I think that you had a gold bill last year and it was also HB 1 95. It was called 3 0 6, but it was effectively the same bill. Oh, Okay. Um, so I've gotten, I I just, I actually know the answer to the question, but I, I want to give the, the opportunity because I think it's salient. I've gotten a number of, um, questions about some of the same issues that people had with the bill last year. If you could just clear up that, I mean, I, I know that this, the statute is already set that this bill doesn't change the statute about the investment fund for Right. Um, but Oh, no, thank you for bringing that up. Right. Thank you for bringing that Up. If we probably clear that up, you know what I'm talking about, just clear it up on the public's forum To Yeah. So House Bill answer people's questions. Thank you.

Thank you. House Bill 3 48 allowed the state to invest up to 10% of our rainy day fund in gold. The treasurer has done that and, and we've done well with that. That's completely separate. Yeah. That has nothing to do with this other than they're both gold. Yeah. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And, and this then is totally separate. Doesn't affect that the state has dollars in various accounts and a vendor that chooses to receive gold, the state simply takes some of those dollars, puts it in the account, or the app and hits send, and the vendor receives gold on the other end.

Yeah. Thank you. And I just thank you for that, um, representative of Mr. Chair. I just wanna reassure people because, you know, I, I love that people are engaged in seeing things, but just on the record, I wanna reassure people that this, in no way in the past or this year diverts any kind of Medicaid money away into, um, into this program. And that we, um, as a legislature remain, um, conscientious stewards of our, our social services programs.

Thank you. And, and actually, if I may, those that are concerned about that should be delighted that we invested that amount in the rainy day fund, and we've turned 109 million into, probably close to 200 million in less than a year. And so, and that helps the Medicaid and all the other expenses that we have.

Okay. Thank you. Um, the chair actually has a few questions and you answered one of 'em was, is how much money did we make on the last investment? Um, I'll, I'll defer to, I, you've kind of given me a rough ballpark, but, uh, you, you can clarify that if you want.

It's hard to say definitively because Gold's been going up very rapidly because of some of the things happening in the world. Like we said, foreign nations, they're, they're, they're abandoning treasuries very rapidly into gold. But we've gone from, so on the effective date of 3 48, May 1st price of gold was 2200. Today, it went as high as 5,600. I think it's around 5,300 maybe right now. So we've more than doubled from when the effective date of the bill.

Thank you. A few other questions. Um, our Species Legal Tender Act, um, does that if somebody, which is, wasn't your, your bill? That's, uh, Bill, actually it was originally, and then Brad Galvez Oh, okay. Was with me and we worked it together. But he's the one, he was the sponsor. D does that, does the current statute allow people to pay with, if they use, uh, gold coins, is that accepted by the treasurer at fair value or face value?

Uh, statute doesn't specify. Um, th this would, are you saying The, the existing code regarding spec legal tender? Yeah. We do not, uh, take physical precious metals at this point.

Okay. Okay. Yeah. And That, that's not implicated in this bill, but, well, and That was actually led to my next question Is this, but just as a point, there were several Supreme Court cases that, that say gold is gold, whether it's in a coin or whether it's in a bar. It's about the weight and the purity. And the Supreme Court has waited on that.

Um, so this bill would not allow entities to physically pay or receive in gold. Correct. Has to go through a third party. Correct. But one important part of the bill though, and, and part of the safety would be making sure that people can redeem. So if they received a payment in electronic gold, having the ability to redeem either in physical gold or in dollars, and making sure that that's in there is a, is a critical component. And that's another reason why, you know, having the kinds of regulations and things that would go with this.

Okay. La last question. Um, so we're not actually talking about the physical exchange of precious metals with this bill, correct?

Correct. It's effectively a credit card system baked, backed by, by gold.

So if somebody wants to pay their tax return, or excuse me, pay their year end taxes owed to the state tax commission and they want to use a credit card, the individual wanting to use that form of payment has to bear the transaction costs of doing that.

If somebody wants to, to pay in gold, um, who bears the transaction cost the payer or the, the state? Yeah. The way most of the apps work that I, that I'm aware of is, let's say for example, I've got my app and I want to go pay taxes or buy an ice cream cone, I would transmit from my gold wallet. And the, the, the store would never know the difference. They would simply receive the payment in dollars. So the, the, the vendor, the the payment service provider does all of that conversion. Okay. So, And the fee would be born, you know, however merchant fees are. If it's peer-to-peer, there'd be no fee. If there's a merchant fee, it would be whatever the merchant fee is. Okay.

Last question. And this would be more of a a, a floor amendment. Could Lemme just finish and if Mr. Chair, I just, I just wanna clarify, I'm Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah. That, I just wanna make sure that the state doesn't not have to pay the transaction costs. And if the sponsor would be open to an amendment that just clarifies that people are welcome to use this form of payment, but they would be the vendor or the, the payer of such transaction be responsible for the transaction fees. Yeah,

I'd be very open to that.

Uh, what I was gonna say, part of the process of doing the RFP process is to really find out what all of those are. And so the vendors have various ways of how they do their transaction fees. And so, you know, part of the process is then finding out what the fees are, how it's worked, and making sure that obviously the state's getting the best deal. But they, they, they can charge them in different ways. But I'd be, I'd be open to that certainly. Okay,

Great. Okay, thank you.

Hello, my name is Benjamin Schafer. I am from Citizens for Sound Money, uh, a non-profit advocacy organization, uh, that speaks to issues of finance, particularly when it, um, crosses over with precious metals. Um, this is very much up our alley. Um, and I would, I'm here to, uh, speak in favor of the, the passage of this act, but I do want to point out a couple of, um, uh, small changes that I'd like to suggest that we make. Um, first of all, uh, the concerns that have come up in the past, uh, with, for example, some of our, our colleagues in Idaho was, uh, about, uh, whether or not this would create a state monopoly was really centered on whether or not the state itself is a system participant or, um, the owner or dictator over the system itself. There as, as representative every pointed out, there are already, um, more than a dozen or so, um, systems that already exist in order for people to do transactions. And all of them, as far as I can tell, would, would be very happy to welcome, uh, the state of Utah amongst their, uh, clients who use their systems. Uh, the main, uh, so the, the one, uh, thing that I'd like to suggest, there's a definition here for a system participant or a system con or a participating contractor. Um, I would like to see the state listed as, um, a, as a system participant rather than as, um, the, the term is to establish and operate a precious metals backed electronic payment system. Uh, the distinction there, of course, would be simply that, uh, the state of course can contract with whomever they want. The same way that, um, anyone can choose which bank they're going to bank with. Uh, we just wanna make sure that the state isn't saying everyone has to bank with Bank of America, for example. Uh, rather that the state can put its funds wherever the state wants to put its funds. Uh, and it can require, uh, of those people, whatever it wants to require of them. Uh, but we don't want, um, to make it so that the state is the bank or is requiring the citizens of the state only to bank with whomever they prefer. Um, with that one distinction, however, uh, we're very much in favor of this bill. It's really essential In order for, um, the state to be able to use, it's now hundreds of millions of dollars of rainy day funds. Uh, we need to establish, um, a system in the state that more contractors are using, uh, for that to eventually be useful. Uh, it's going to be useful to the state in saving its money and spending it responsibly and effectively to have such a system, um, that the state contracts with. And so we welcome, uh, that process so long as it's clear the role the state is playing. Thank you.

Can you hear me? Yes. Oh, awesome. Thank you. Uh, for, uh, the leadership, uh, Utah is, uh, is doing on this important legislation, uh, the impact, uh, that,

I'll, I'll back up here. Uh, my name is Mike Carter. I am, uh, part of the, uh, national Security Investment Consultant Institute. Uh, we've been helping to facilitate, uh, the transactional gold movement across the country. Now. I've been involved in the legislative process in five states that have passed it, another 14 or 15 that are in the process of, of moving legislation forward today. And, uh, we operate a solution to action tank on economic liberty, economic freedom, and we look for real world solutions, uh, that are gonna help us to maintain fair weights and measures and maintain economic freedom, economic liberty out there. I wanna recognize Utah, uh, and, and the team here for what you guys have done. You've led in recognizing gold and silver as legal tender. Uh, unfortunately, as I heard some of the questions before, if I wanted to go spend my gold and silver as legal tender, that's very difficult to do right now. Uh, it's hard to take a coin into Walmart, and they're gonna say, well, what is this worth? And what do I do with it? With new technology today, we can now make gold and silver transactional anywhere that takes a debit card. Uh, you guys got the first piece done, I thought, with your, uh, legislative effort last year and the bipartisan support we saw, uh, you were gonna be the first to get it done. Uh, you were that close to it. Uh, but I wanna share that the work that you have done as a, as, as a state, uh, the Utah Precious Metals Report and all that has been used across the country right now as these states are moving forward with this, and we're seeing propositions. We had a proposition ballot in Texas, 1.75 million. Texas says, we wanna make our gold transactional. We want this. Uh, this is a big idea. Uh, as, uh, Representative Ivory shared Gold is the number one import and export. You guys have been leaders on this. Uh, treasurer Oaks is, uh, is recognized as one of the thought leaders amongst other treasurers who are saying, what are the other states doing? How do we make this work? Uh, and I just, uh, just want to, uh, show up in support of the bill, uh, and, and say that thank you to Utah for the work you've done already. And, and hopefully thank you to the legislative body there that sees, uh, this is needed more than ever. Uh, we've got, you know, five, uh, undeniable truths when we look at money. You know, our debt path is unsustainable. Others are targeting our money. We're seeing a wealth gap out there that's not sustainable, and we've gotta close that wealth gap by offering fair weights and measures. We're seeing the threat of Central Bank digital currencies, uh, uh, and what that means to social credit scores, how you can spend your money. This is the solution to that. And there's new technologies today that make that possible. And we have our constitution that states that says, states very clearly can do this. We've had top constitutional attorneys, uh, here in Texas, uh, and other states all look through this. Uh, the momentum is happening, the movement is happening. Uh, and, uh, just want to continue to see Utah lead. And, uh, again, thank you, uh, Representative Ivory for the work, uh, that you're doing, and thank you to the state of Utah, uh, and Treasure Oaks, uh, for the work you're doing to not just make this a fly by night, but to make what's the practical application and how do you do it, right. So I commend you for that.

I will do that. Gail Ika with Utah Eagle Forum. And I was here last year, uh, also testifying on this bill. I wish that it was in place right now, but I wanted to just tell you, you know, gold right now, everybody is investing in gold. And I think that's a great thing. And I think there's nothing for people to be afraid of. It should be the other way around. And gold is where it is not, not in the dollar. And we just had an experience just, just less than three weeks ago, we had our, uh, Eagle Forum Convention, and one of our, uh, sponsors asked if he could, uh, they could pay us in gold. And I thought, wow, that's great. Yeah, I'll do that. So, you know, it worked really well. Uh, we took the gold. He, they paid the gold. We took the gold. But the great thing about it is, in less than three weeks, I have a lot more than the original 5,000 they gave us. So, wow. This is great. So if anybody ever wants to sponsor anything with us and pay in gold, we'll take it. We even love it. So please pass this bill.

I obviously need to raise my hand higher. Delaine England. I'm representing United Women's Forum, and I just will very briefly say, I love that it gives options. It's not mandatory for anything, and I think it's so exciting to have the ability for our state and every individual to hedge against inflation with $37 trillion in debt, who needs it. But I think it's a great idea, so I totally support it. Thanks so much.

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair Maryanne Christensen with Utah Legislative Watch, and I'm here to speak in favor of the bill also, ever since I read the Creature from Jekyll Island many years ago, and I learned about the Federal Reserve, and however, since they passed that act, they've been divorcing our dollar from real value. It's really concerned me, and I've done a lot of deep diving into try and figure out how I can actually do transactions in a better medium. And gold is just with its high, high value. It's too unwieldy for daily transactions, and this system is a way for us to get started in being able to do that and have real money. And so I urge you to please pass the bill. Thank you so much.

Yeah. Thank you. Uh, I, do we have any amendments or anything? No. Okay. Well, this is the first sub that we're on, right? This Is, I think it was a, I think it was subbed in rules. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, so we're discussing the first sub, so there's no, okay. Need to make, just making sure. Yep. Okay. So I move that we pass out with a favorable recommendation, HP 1 95 Precious medals amendments. Okay. Would you like to speak to that? Um, uh, I just appreciate, uh, the bill appreciate, uh, sponsor and, um, the comments that were made, I think kind of explained it all.

Just briefly, I wanna bring this back. Why it matters for everyone, and especially the, the lowest socioeconomic level. They get hit the hardest with the debasement of our money. And just a quick example, I've got three quarters that were minted before 1965. They're 90% silver, right? They quit, they quit making silver quarters in 19 65, 19 65. The minimum wage was a dollar and a quarter. So five of these, I need to get two more to make the example really work, but, but five of these was the minimum wage. Do you know what five of these are worth today? A hundred dollars. A hundred dollars. If we talk about minimum wage and housing affordability and all the rest, if we just give people the choice of transacting in sound, constitutional money, minimum wage is a hundred dollars. Just where that's gone. And this makes it so that the average person can buy $5 of gold, $5,000 of gold, or $5 million of gold. It democratizes constitutional money for everyone encourages committee support.

I'll waive. Okay. Waive. Okay.

Mr. Chairman. And, and just for the record, um, well, my co-chair wants to an update. That gold closed it. Uh, I'll, I'll let him say it. 5,400 today. And by the way, silver is at one 15, so, oh my goodness. Those silver quarters are a lot more than what you just said.

Alright. I had this really nice Changing. We've got, uh, the central banks are now moving into gold at rapid rates. The foreign central banks, their number one reserve asset is gold. We've got all kinds of entities that are now switching to alternate payment systems. The bricks, the Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa, plus about 40 other nations. In December, they announced their own settlement currency called the unit that is 40% gold back. All HB 1 95 does, is very, very simple. The Constitution says States shall make nothing but gold and silver legal tender in payment of debt. It simply has an RFP mechanism where we choose a payment vendor so that vendors and service providers to the state can choose to be paid in gold and silver for the state. It's like having a new bank account. There are about a dozen app providers where the state would transmit dollars, the vendor would receive gold. It's as simple as like Venmo, but it's backed by real physical gold. Gold is one of the top exports in the state of Utah. It's one of our top imports. It's a major industry. And of course, a couple years ago we did the HB 3 48, where we put up to 10% of the rainy day funding gold. And that's done extremely well. We're up about 70 some percent on that in about, in less than a year. So Stan, you know, that, that for vendors to be able to choose to be paid in gold or silver, it ends up creating that alternate payment system for the state. Again, it's just an RFPA competitive system. Oh, we've got those flyers now can pass 'em online. Yeah. And, uh, for the state, it's a competitive RFP process and it's optional for the vendors. Uh, I'd love to give our good treasurer Marlow Oaks some time to speak a little bit more about the mechanism.

Great. Thank you. Uh, chair Eron and, and, uh, members of the committee. My name is Marlow Oaks State Treasurer of Utah. And, uh, just want to clarify that the state is not determining which platforms can privately operate in the state. It's not monitoring private transactions. It's not interfering in the private market. The state is becoming a customer of one or more platforms similar to how we procure any good or service as a customer, including existing banking services used for similar transactions. So today, when a vendor does work for the state, they choose how they would like to be paid. Um, and that includes check a, CH or e payables. This bill provides a fourth option to receive payment to their own account. On a private precious metals back payment platform, the state would transfer, say a hundred dollars, and the platform would turn around and purchase $100 of precious metals and credit the vendor's account with a hundred dollars of gold or silver. Uh, the state does not purchase precious metals. It transfers dollars just like we do in paying vendors via a CH, the state will do a competitive procurement process that will, uh, identify as many vendors as possible that are able to provide the service for the state and comply with requirements flushed out during the procurement process. The physical precious metals would be vaulted in Utah, audited, insured, and redeemable at the vendor's discretion. So to be clear, this is completely separate from the rainy day fund bill that we did a couple years ago. We don't mix any of that. And just to give you a quick example, in, in 1965, the minimum wage was a dollar and a quarter, five quarters. Right. And so the quarters that are 90% silver, they quit making silver quarters in 1965. So a dollar and a quarter, these five quarters today are worth about $75. We don't need a minimum wage if we just simply had the sound money that the Constitution requires us to have. It's one of the best ways of democratizing money. So with that, Mr. Chairman, happy answer. Any questions?

Okay. Senator Vickers? Yeah, thank you Mr. Chair. I I do have a couple of questions. Um, and I, you know, I've supportive that the rainy day concept and, you know, and as far as investing in that, I just wanna make sure I understand correctly and, and, uh, Mr I want to say all I want say is Marlowe, but Mr. Oaks State Treasurer, you mentioned in your testimony that, that we would, if, if a, a vendor re requested to be paid in gold, that that we would, we would go out and contract with them, intermediary that at that point would turn that money into gold for them.

Correct? Yeah. So what we would do is a procurement process to identify, uh, precious metals platforms that could then take payment from the state and convert it, you know, into gold. Or essentially, We wouldn't be giving 'em gold out of our stores. Correct. You'd be giving it, it would be a, a kind of a paper transfer that turns into gold.

Yep, exactly. Well, I guess the question I got then is, is why, because they can take that paycheck and turn into gold, many vendors. Yeah. And if we're not actually physically giving them gold, I'm not sure why that makes sense for the state to have to contract with somebody to do something they can do on their own.

Yeah, no, that's, and that's a great question. So really that's, that's one of the, the questions that I get often is why does the state need to be involved in this at all? And really, there's two reasons. Number one is that in 1974, the IRS changed the, the treatment of gold and silver and turned it into a collectible as opposed to a, a store of, you know, monetary value and, and the use of use of money. And so as a result, um, gold and silver is subject to capital gains tax. And so by having the state involved, um, in the payment of, uh, of vendors, uh, for gold and silver, um, it gives us standing to, to challenge the tax treatment of the IRS for gold and silver. And then the second reason is that, um, it really, the state involvement supports trust and, and, uh, infrastructure. So by ensuring that precious metals used in the transactions are securely vaulted in Utah, independently audited, uh, insured and held under clear legal standards, the, the state helps create a trusted foundation for, for private actors to really build this transactional based, uh, system. Okay. Right. And the other one that would add to that is just to tie the federal government's hands in. In the past, there was actually a time when the federal government seized gold from the people in 1933. We've got five states now that have passed similar legislation to this since we passed this last year. Five other states have passed it. And so to, to establish that trust so that, you know, you've got a system that's kind of like Venmo, but it's backed by gold. You've got that trusted vaulting redemption auditing, ensuring the, the challenging of the tax treatment, and then making sure that we keep our federal government locked into a fixed money standard that, uh, that they can't, uh, in invade upon, which has happened in the past.

Follow up question if I could. Yes. So, uh, so you mentioned that five states have passed it. Uh, what's, has there been enough history there to know what the experience has been? Has anybody taken them up on it? Uh, have they had challenges with the vendor they've chosen? Uh, um, has there been success failure?

What? Yeah, they just, so we were actually the first state to pass this last year. And then, uh, uh, you know, these other states passed, so it was just within the last year. So they're now in the process of the RFP and reaching out to vendors and implementation. We've identified about a dozen vendors that have, you know, different forms of, of apps like this where they, they provide this payment processing system. And so they're in that same RFP process that we would be

Form. Is that the way It works? I'm sorry. The state would select one Yeah. One or more, right?

Yeah. It could be more than one.

So, okay. Yeah, it's kind of, it's,

it's really like having another bank account for the state.

Okay. I, I, like I said, I'm just struggling when I'm trying to figure out why, you know, especially when the, when an individual can transfer their, their, their check their dollars into gold if they want.

Yeah. I mean, it really, you establish the trusted system. So they know that it's like, for example, this, this app right now, the gold is stored in Switzerland and, and as far as being able to redeem, so if you've got money in the app, you wanna redeem for either dollars or physical gold, you know that that process is not as Sure with the state involved, we know it would be vaulted In Utah, you'd have the redemption process that you could redeem for physical precious metals or dollars, and that would be specified in regulations. And, and then it's really just those, those transaction rails we've got, uh, there's Dr. Judy Shelton was, uh, president Trump's nominee to the Federal Reserve in his first administration. She was, uh, a doctorate and master's in doctorate from University of Utah. She's proposing now that, that, uh, the president institutes something called Treasury Trust bonds that are 50 year bonds backed by gold. The reason they do that is we've got so many bonds that we have to place. We have to sell so much debt that that's the only way to really attract the demand. And so you're increasingly seeing nations and, and companies and others beginning to build gold payment systems and alternate payment systems like Bitcoin and others. This is backed by physical gold. And when the state's paying paying vendors, we have that whole regime of trust behind it.

Okay. Okay. I had another question, but I better let somebody else ask.

Ga Ika with Utah Eagle Forum. You know, I've been really fascinated by all this. In fact, uh, several years ago, uh, we passed some legislation many years ago that had to do with legal tender gold is legal tender, and I was involved then and, uh, testified for it and learned a lot during that time. And since over the years, it's been very interesting to watch this. And, and I believe that the state should be involved in any way they can. I like the fact that the rainy day fund, that that 10%, in fact, if right now it would be great if it was more than 10%. Anyway, I was gonna share something that had happened recently for me last month was our Utah Eagle Forum Convention. And when, uh, we have people who will donate, didn't help us to, to fund our convention. And one of the vendors last month was, uh, Alpine Gold, and they asked if they could don give the donation in gold and $5,000 worth of gold that was, uh, you know, in their, in an account. And that similar to what we've been talking about. And so they deposited that $5,000. That sounded like a good idea to me that, uh, in, in the name of Eagle form in that, uh, uh, account. And so today, I just thought, I called them, I said, Hey, could you tell me it's been one month now? What, what, how much money do I have in that account? And the $5,000 that they gave me last month was now $5,700. So we earned $700 in one month. And that made that, that a really nice donation. So if the, you know, if we can do that, can't the state get involved in that kind of thing? Can't we encourage other, I think it would encourage other people to feel confident that they could also do this. 'cause if you look at what's happening with gold, uh, and people are nervous, they don't know quite how, how to do it, and the state could lead the way. So I think this is a great idea. And I have to tell you, I'm really grateful that we got paid in gold last month. So thank you.

Ready? Yep. Alright. My name is Kim Coleman and I'm director of Strategic relations for Gold Back. It's a Lehi company that produces fractional denominated 24 karat gold notes used as local alternative currency. So we are in the industry and we acknowledge and appreciate the years of effort toward making gold, uh, more, uh, making gold currency again, frankly. And we support a lot of the, uh, ways that Utah has led, including holding gold reserves. And that has the same benefit it would have for, uh, an individual. However, this proposal seeks to expand the scope and duties of the state government to create a new activity that will compete directly with our industry, which by the way, is thriving, growing, and meeting the market demand or otherwise, it allows the state government to pick winners and losers Among this thriving industry, hundreds of private sector providers offer secure depository services and residents of Utah do not lack access to this service. Thousands of private sector companies buy, sell, and exchange gold and silver and residents of Utah do not lack access to these services. At least a dozen. As has been mentioned, companies provide or are in the process of launching precious metals backed electronic payment services. And residents of Utah do not lack access to these services. It is a fundamental economic principle that the people benefit from the pressures of competition that exist in a private open market. We oppose the state entering the financial services and precious metals retail market, whether that is conducted internally, fully, or through contractors, especially when there is no compelling state interest to do so. These bills have similar bills and variance of these bills have, uh, been run in about two dozen states. They are failing primarily, largely on the principle that this is simply an unnecessary anti-free enterprise expansion of government. And we ask that you oppose this government expansion, allow our industry to continue to thrive in an open market free from competing with government and its favored contractors, which never allows for a fair playing field. Thank you, Mr. Chair. One,

Vickers. Uh, thank you Mr. Chair. Yeah. A question for you, because I did receive a number of emails, um, opposing the bill. It seemed like coming from people in the industry similar to what you're saying. So just so I understand clearly, what is, is the opposition primarily because of government competition with a private market? Or is there something else there that I'm missing?

I I think your line of questioning really hit it, um, just directly is this can already be done. If I'm a contractor with the state and I want to be paid in gold, there's always going to be some point of conversion. So whether that's USD in the Treasury that goes to me in USD or it goes to my, someone I think mentioned Alpine gold account where it is then, uh, converted at that point so that ultimately I get paid in gold. So this already happens. It happens again. There is no place in this country that people do not have access to these services. This, this marks, um, really the first time we, we are asking the state to not just be a regulator of a financial services market, but a participant. And in this, um, this, this bill is, is, um, a smaller version of what we're seeing in other states, but we've seen what the grownup bill looks like. It's quite intrusive in the, in the market. But even this bill as, um, specific and limited as it is, we already do this, we do it well. It's a regulated market. It's growing, it's thriving, and we, uh, ask that you not have the government compete with us.

Can you hear me okay? Yes, we can. Thank you. Chairman Winterton, uh, members of the committee. My name is Stephan Gleason. I'm CEO of Money Metals Exchange and Money Metals Depository. Uh, we are the largest, uh, retail precious metals dealer in and depository in the western United States. We are located in Idaho just to the north. Uh, my business serves thousands of Idaho of, uh, uh, Utahans, uh, Zion Bank. Were probably their largest customer in Idaho. Um, I'm testifying in opposition to HB 1 95, but I want to first mention that I do compliment the treasurer and others on the investment in gold. Uh, absolutely great for the state to show up the balance sheet. We have supported, encouraged states to do that elsewhere. Wyoming just did it. Good move. Um, this is very different. Um, this, this would require the state to quote, contract with one or more third parties to establish and operate a precious metals back to electronic payment system on the state's behalf. This is a very similar bill to the bill that was vetoed last year by governor, uh, Cox when he cited Unworkability concerns as well as concerns about a vendor's involvement. Other states have rejected similar proposals. Um, I don't believe there's anything that's even close to being implemented at any state level, even with those that have been dabbling in this at this point. Um, to the point of the government involvement bringing trust, I would submit to you that many people do not want the government involved in their gold ownership, uh, purchase or storage or, or anything related to it. A lot of folks hold gold and silver in part because they're concerned about government, or at least privacy and financial autonomy. Um, this idea, while some good ideas have come out of the working group, including the, uh, gold ownership, this has been, uh, you know, done without any industry stakeholder involvement that I'm aware of, and in, and particularly those that are in the market, uh, except perhaps the vendor or vendors that are seeking the service or the partnership with the state. Um, you know, as Ms. Coleman already mentioned, that these services are already available, uh, without legislation, but we have the state potentially considering transitioning from its role as a regulator to an asset custodian or at least partnered with an asset custodian in developing an offering and putting it out into the market. Um, so, you know, putting aside the confusion with consumers, there's also directly an issue that I noticed that, you know, Utah's Uniform Securities Act has regulatory, uh, oversight and, and, and something to do with this area, but I don't see them included in any manner or potentially, I don't believe they were consulted in this, in the development of this proposal. Um, but this is the statute that regulators where they oversee commodity contracts, precious metal storage, marketing, fraudulent practices, particularly in cases where the precious metals are not delivered to the end, uh, purchaser within 28 days, as would be the case with such an offering here, which is a storage offering. So, you know, gold that's on the state, bless precious metals electronic payment system, uh, would be stored somewhere else. And this could be found to be a problematic unlicensed futures transaction unless the state's securities regulators were to intervene and choose to make exceptions. Um, but there's no acknowledgement for any role of the Utah Division of Securities, uh, nor, you know, do I believe they were included in discussion. So I think we basically have a situation where developing A-A-A-A-A-A mechanism that's outside of the well-designed regulatory and compliance mechanisms that already exist. There was a big fraud involved, rust rare coins, a hundred million dollar fraud right there in Salt Lake City. Um, taking regulators that are involved in this area out of the picture doesn't seem like a good idea, nor does it seem like a good idea for the state to be partnering with any particular business in this sector, whether a good actor or potentially a bad actor. Um, so, you know, going back to the comments about taxes and government confiscation, we've seen these claims made, which we think are highly deceptive and mis and not really appropriate for the state to be advancing a tax avoidance type of argument. The idea that people who put their metal into the government blessed payment app or scheme would somehow be exempt from federal income tax, but those that do not have gold in their house might not be, or that they, those that don't have their gold within the state blessed system might be subject to federal confiscation of their gold. These are tactics, marketing tactics, I don't think that, that we should be having the state involved with. So anyway, I just think there's some good things the state can do. They can reduce regulation on local dealers rather than going into competition with them, which is what this seems to envision. Uh, there's things like fully, uh, expanding the capital gains tax exemption, which is not complete in u in Utah, and could be. So, you know, I, I compliment the state on wanting to address sound money issues, but this is big government and it's not really something I think the state should get involved in, and that's why others in other states as well as banking, uh, lobbies and others have been concerned about the direction that this is going. Thank you for the opportunity to testify. Okay,

Thank you, chairman and committee members. Um, Mike Carter, uh, testifying in favor of House Bill 1 95. Uh, I'm part of the National Security Investment Consultant Institute, excited about what Utah has done to lead, uh, in making gold and silver legal tender. He did that back in 2011. Unfortunately, making it functional money or functional currency has been a, a tougher haul until we get to where we're at today. Uh, we've been involved in facilitating legislation across the country and despite, uh, uh, what you just heard from, from Stephan, uh, this is a movement that's happening across America in Texas. We had 1.7 million people say they want to be able to transact easily in gold and silver to have access to it in a, in a, in a vault and, and to be able to transact. Uh, we've seen in Florida, um, uh, unanimous bipartisan consent with House Bill 9 9 9 Arkansas, the same thing. Uh, this is, uh, legislation that's moving across the country. Uh, and the reason it is, is because a lot of geopolitical concerns, a lot of threats out there. And I think myself and any of my opponents will agree that this is important legislation that you guys are looking at today, but to make it functional money, it's important the states are involved with limited oversight. Uh, our, I'm not saying that our, our founders put that in the Constitution that says, uh, states have the authority to make gold and silver legal tender. Uh, what House Bill 1 95 does is actually gives that standing to where you're starting to pay people. Now, if I'm gonna get paid in gold and silver, I want more than some private vendor telling me. Yeah, trust me, the, the gold and silver is real. I want that limited oversight. Uh, uh, this is no longer a government takeover than the state of Utah authorizing a new bank in, in the state of Utah. There needs to be some limited oversight, some limited regulation. Uh, and that's what this is really about. Um, I think if you look at, you know, some of the, uh, opposition letters that you guys have gotten today, I've been involved in, uh, multiple testimony and it's caught outta subcommittees. Despite that, uh, money medals and the Sony Defense League, one of the same organization that trade group out of Idaho, uh, is if, if I look at what they're saying in these communications that's causing people to robo, uh, some of these email communications, I might asking myself, have they read House Bill 1 95? Because nothing in here, uh, refers to some of the statements that they're making out that we're seeing that in other states as well. Why this is important for Utah. You guys are, are a unique position. You've been leaders in this in multiple ways. Uh, this is not a, uh, private, uh, uh, uh, uh, this is not, uh, something that works against the private market system at all. What does it set up? The rails and guidelines so that free markets, uh, can come in, innovate and drive new ways to do these payment systems. There needs to be that limited oversight. There's a private company out there, one last year called Load that literally took off with people's silver and gold because there was not those oversights. This does not, is not a state takeover. It's not central bank digital currency. Individuals when they're, when they're getting paid in gold and working through this system, it's their gold. It's not the state's gold. Uh, this is a, a, a significant opportunity for, for Utah. Uh, I will tell you that other states are looking at this, uh, and the work that, uh, that, uh, treasure Oaks and Kanosh Ivory have done has been significant. As other states look at this. Uh, and I hope that, uh, others in the gold industry can understand for this, for what it really is. There will be those that are in the investment and go, uh, business of gold that stays private. They keep doing everything they do the way they do it. If they're, if they're selling gold, if they're transacting, if, if they're selling gold for, or if they're holding gold or liquidating gold, nothing changes that stays private, that stays into the rules and so forth that they do. But if they're gonna do something and change for a third party, and if I'm Walmart or retailer out there, I need to know that if I'm gonna take payment in gold, not converting gold to dollars, but take payment in gold, that there's something standing behind that, that the gold's actually there. And that's the reason that we need to have limited government. That's the reason their founders gave you the state, and you legislators the limited authority to look over this, but set up the rails and then let the free market prevail. Let private companies succeed. That's what this is about. It's a huge idea. And, uh, thank you for your time. Okay.

I am based out of Texas. Out of Texas. And, uh, okay. I've been, I've been facilitating this, uh, in, in mo all the states that are out there right now. Uh, we've, uh, we hear a lot from the movement and from people out there. And we were reacting to a consumer need that says, how do we protect our national security and economic infrastructure? That's what I'm concerned about. I'm platform agnostic. I'm vendor agnostic. I care about economic freedom, and I wanna see everybody in the private sector have great success.

Okay. Hi, Mr. Chairman, thank you so much for this opportunity. I'm Maryanne Christensen, executive director of Utah Legislative Watch, and I'm speaking in favor of the bill. And for two reasons. First of all, um, I was involved many years ago with Larry Hilton when Utah passed the law, recognizing gold as, uh, legal tender. And then I've seen a lot of different, um, companies that could help people transact in gold. We've mentioned the gold backs and different companies that are, that are helping people not only, um, invest in gold, but to be able to transact in gold. But I haven't seen it take off, and it seems to me like we need something to help us get us get over the threshold and really make it a thing that people do so that we are all transacting with each other that way. Um, the second thing is just my concern over the value of the dollar. We, we have been, the dollar's been removed from any kind of gold backing. The dollar has no value except for the trust of the people who are using it. The reason why there is trust in the dollar is because it's the world's currency. It's the currency that people buy oil in all over the world. And yet we have the bricks, currency, um, bricks standing for Brazil, Russia, Indian India, China, and South Africa with now several members. Um, I think there's 11 members and several partners that currency is getting ready to take off. And they are a gold backed currency. I think they have the power to knock the dollar off of the world currency. When that happens, our state needs to be able to, um, just for the, the sake of our stability and our able to con our ability to just continue to be prosperous as a state. We need to not be reliant on the dollar. We need to be reliant on real money. And gold is, is that real money that we need. And so I just applaud every effort that we are putting into place to make sure that we're using real money here in the state of Utah. Thank you very much.

Yeah, thank you. Just a follow up question. And I, I had forgot that this, uh, was this, at least this policy had been vetoed last year. So what are the changes in this versus that one? And, and do you, have you had conversations with the governor's office?

Yeah. And so, yes. And so the changes that came about last from last time, there was a change in the bill toward the end of the session that put a $200,000 fiscal note on the bill at the end of the session after we'd already done fiscal notes and everything. And, and that effectively would've killed the bill. And I asked leadership, I said, if I could get a private party to fund the bill, could it still go through? They said, yeah, this was such a big deal and such a big, uh, matter of interest nationally that a private party that's not a vendor that has no stake in, in, you know, no horse in the race, if you will, said, I'll put up the money. This is such a big deal for our nation to deal with the inflation that we're seeing, where our money is being devalued and we're seeing massive inflation. They put up the money. I, I didn't hear from the governor's office, and I thought, no news was good news. And 10 minutes before the veto deadline, they said, we think this is a vendor bill. And we said, no, absolutely not. This is a open competitive RFP process. And, and so, I mean, it was, it was vetoed on that basis. Uh, what we've done, we've clarified that more than one. In fact, at the request of the, the gold back company that testified at their request, we put in the bill more than one, one or more vendors. And so the state is just choosing like a bank account. We're, we're no more competing with these companies than we're competing with Zion Bank because we have an account and we pay vendors. And Senator, the reason we would do that is you heard from Ms. Ika gold is increasing rapidly, but it's not gold increasing rapidly. It's the dollar being devalued. We have to roll over $12 trillion in debt every year and and, and sell treasuries where the Federal Reserve just monetizes them, devaluing the dollar being paid in gold. They hold that value and preserve it and, and Senator being paid in this form, it, it makes it transactional. People always wonder, do I have to scrape off flex of gold with my knife? No. When you have the, the, the payment systems like this, and again, we've identified at least 10 that would go out to RFP competitive bid. You can buy a soda pop, you could buy a car with, with the gold, and that value is maintained and increasing over time. And so, uh, the, the changes are, we have one or more vendors. It's not a vendor bill. We've made it very clear it's open competitive bid. We've identified at least 10 vendors that provide a service like this. It allows for people that provide products and services to the state to be paid in a form of money that maintains and increases its value over time and makes it a form that is transactional. That it's, it's, it's easily transactional in an environment where money is changing. China is moving to a gold back payment system. The, you know, the, the global south is moving to a gold back payment system. We've got talk about US treasury bonds being denominated in gold. That's why so many states are looking at this. And you've got the states that they mentioned that have passed these bills.

Hank I just, you know, I, I just want to be clear, I'm not sure all of the issues have been cleared up, but I just wanted to know what you, what changes you had made to get it from veto to pass?

Yeah, there, there is no single vendor. That was the misconception. And, and we've talked with the governor's office on that. There is no, this is not a vendor bill. There's no single vendor, there's no single party funding it.

You know, and so that, that, that was the issue. That Was, I noticed the, I looked at the fiscal loan when you mentioned that I looked at the fiscal loan up, it sounds like there's, there's a cost, but it's being absorbed.

Yeah. Right, right. And, and again, that's because until we put out the RFP and, and we look at the dozen different company, I mean, tether has like $40 billion in gold that they do a blockchain gold back payment system, you know, among others like that. Until we put out the RFP and really know the process and the transaction fees, most of them, it's, it's just simply a fee, a transaction fee base. And so you put out the RFP, we find the ones that are the best cost and value for the state, and then we're able to offer that store value payment system for our vendors.

Okay. Thanks. All right. I, I look at it and, and we had lots of emails and that, and I don't, I guess I'm not reading the bill, right? Because first of all, the first thing appears is that this is a continuation of what you started. It's a study. We're gonna set up an RFP look for those vendors, how do we control 'em or, or the parameters of that. And then we're gonna come back and report annually as to here's where things stand now, tell me what else am I missing? Where do we read that we're in competition with others? Because I mean, I have gold backs and, and as I listen to the presentation and I wanna do business with somebody, I'm supposed to take a slice off a gold bar and calculate that, okay, I got gold backs. Now I can start paying them in that. But the problem with that is we don't have that many, uh, merchants out there that are dealing in gold backs yet. It's gonna take some time. And I think establishing protocol on how we're gonna do business helps me understand how can I spend my money? I mean, I've gotta have a few of those gold backs to go buy a car and, and what does that look like? So I can see what we're trying to do. I'm just trying to figure out the misconceptions here.

You know, I, I, I think you're spot on the, the one gentleman from Idaho that testified after we passed 3 48, the rainy day fund bill, we, we interviewed that gentleman and, and I should say with, with the treasurer in his office, we interviewed him for probably an hour and, and they have a vault, but it's in Idaho. And, and you know, that didn't, wasn't appropriate for Utah. We wanted to vault gold in Idaho. They don't seem to have a transaction system like this. They just sell, you know, gold coins and that. But if we're gonna transact on the level of a state where you've got the ability that you could instantly transact the amount for a soda pop or the amount for a massive state project, you can't do that. Just handing out gold coins and counting 'em and stacking them and slicing them. Honestly, I think it was just sour grapes. They have a, as he mentioned, they were the largest retail vendor. They sent out a blast to their, to their retail list and said, go oppose this bill. Even though it's an open competitive process, we want all people to come in and whatever that best transaction system is, we want to set the model for the nation. And I guess, senator to one of your questions, why the state, the constitution tells us, no, no state shall make anything but gold and silver legal tender and payment of debt. The reason for that was so that we wouldn't let inflation get out of control. Up until the time that President Nixon took us off the gold standard in 1971, we didn't have inflation. You had periods of things up and down and bouts during the war. We didn't have inflation. Same thing with Great Britain from 1717 to 1931 when they were on a gold back system, houses didn't go from $24,000 to 600,000. People could preserve the purchasing power of their earnings and savings. And that's what we're really pioneering. Senator Vickers is, is the option, the choice for people to decide to be paid in a form of money that they preserve their purchasing power over time instead of having it eroded by the c continual creation of money. Can I, alright, thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair and, and folks that have spoken and to the presenters. It's, it's fascinating to me when you try to digest things that are, you know, you have a little bit of a framework of information on or knowledge on, but you don't, I don't would profess to have deep knowledge here And I feel better about a gold back something than a Bitcoin something. Right? A a an actual piece of something that has value to it. But I also think it's interesting just for my own self to see how when I hear you two speak about it, I can see the, the sense, the logic. Now, whether or not once you to agree with the logic is a different thing, but I can see it and I'll tell you, I did not enjoy receiving those somewhat hostile emails, which thou death protest too much is something that comes to me. So I, I just, it it, thank you for making me think more about this and, and I, I don't know all the answers, but I wonder if you're onto something. So thank you for bringing it to us. Thank You.

So short, I have to push with the, um, let's see. I gotta get up to my thing. Uh, with that being said, I would like to make a motion that we vote, hang on. It's gonna be here. There's only how many committees we had today, Hpb 1 95. 1 95, substitute one, substitute one, uh, forward to the full body of the Senate favorably, please.

Thank you. Um, I've still got questions, I'd be honest with you, but I, um, you know, I want to see the, I think I wanna see the idea move forward, but at the same token, I I still have questions. I'm, I'm just, I'm not sold yet. You might say. So.

I'm a, I guess If, if, if I made of that senator from the last bill that Senator Winterton mentioned, we had a study group for most of 2024. And we had folks, well, the treasurer led it. We had Randy Quarles, who was the vice chair of the Federal Reserve, Gary Crittendon, who was the CFO of city group and Amex, we had the Bankers Association, uh, whole governor's office, whole host of others. And, and the recommendation was people should have choice in, in the money that they used. This was the form of money in our constitution that people should have choice. And we had studied that for the better part of a year. That's where we'll continue the study group as we move forward. But with, with what's happening in the world and we're seeing the nature of money has already changed and Senator would love, be happy to sit down and, and get you more information. It's really fascinating. But when we talk about housing affordability and, and inflation and wage issues, Gold and silver have held their value over long periods of time. College tuition is as affordable today as it was in 1971. Homes are more affordable based in gold today than they were in 1971. And that's really, it's a way that we can start and we're working with many other states to start fighting this massive inflation that we really don't see any end in sight with a $39 trillion debt and the rate that they're monetizing money. And so this is a way that states are starting to put a fixed standard back to put some control on that. So I would love to meet with you and get you more information as well.

And, uh, we Included the, Is it on, uh, The license? Oh, there we go. Yeah, the light was on. Yeah, so, so HB 1 95 follows on house Bill 3 48. That was the bill that allowed us to invest, uh, a portion of the rainy day funds, uh, in precious metals. And, and through that we set up a, a, a study group that went all throughout 2024. And it was a world class study group. We had the vice chair of the Federal Reserve. We had the CFO of Citigroup and Amex, and a number of others, a bankers association, a variety of others. And from that came this bill that said, Utah's a leader in FinTech and Utah's a leader worldwide in mining. And this bill marries those two and brings, uh, precious metal payment systems into the 21st century Constitution tells us to make gold, uh, to, to accept nothing but gold and silver in, in payment of debt because it protects our people's, uh, purchasing power. And, and that's what this bill does. Uh, with that, I'd like to give, uh, just a little bit of time to Treasure Oaks. He was the one that led that study group. And, and, uh, then we'd be happy to answer any questions, Mr. Chair.

Okay, great. Good, good morning. Good morning. Chair, uh, Winterton and members of the committee. My name is Marlo Oaks State Treasurer, and, uh, one of the key outcomes of that study group was providing choice. Um, and this provides choice for vendors to be paid in precious metals. And a couple of reasons why state involvement is important. I've been involved with, um, federal policy makers and US treasury discussions regarding gold's outdated tax treatment. And it's important that we, uh, pass this bill to continue those conversations at the national level. Um, because as a participant in the market, Utah will strengthen its footing under Article one Section 10 of the Utah Constitution or the US Constitution, um, in advancing those federal conversations. Second, um, as a customer in the market, we can set high standards requiring in state vaulting independent audits, insurance coverage, and clear redemption policies, which helps us, um, set best practices that would likely benefit private citizens as well. So, um, I urge your, uh, support of this bill. Thank you. Be happy to answer any questions we share. That completes presentation

Gail Ika with Utah Eagle Farm, and I was in here the last time you heard this bill, so, uh, I won't say a lot today. I, I mentioned last time the experience that I had had with, uh, receiving, uh, $5,000 and by the next, the beginning of the next month it was $5,700 in gold. So that, I think, shows the importance of this. But, uh, yes, it does say in, in the Constitution that we should deal in gold and why would we not pass this out and, and, uh, do that very thing and set the example. You know, I think it's what is ahead of us is we're gonna see that we're gonna need to have established a use of gold and this is a good way to do it. So please vote. Yes. Thank you.

Thank you so much. I was in the door trying to raise my hand with my hands full. Maryanne Christensen, executive Director of Utah Legislative Watch. Um, Gail just spoke on the advantages of holding gold. It has just gone up and up in value. I want to speak on the other end of things, and that is the devaluation of the dollar. It's really not prudent for the state to have all of its resources tied up in the US dollar when it's becoming a precarious form of transactions. Um, we, I think we got lucky when we elected Trump because the dollar was headed for its demise with, um, with the Bris currency, Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa, forming an alliance. I believe there's 11 member nations to that currency right now with another, um, six nations so far. Last time I checked that have signed on as partners. The whole plan there is to put together a, a world currency that it's backed by gold and to, um, de place the dollar as the world's currency. And when that happens, it's gonna be really devastating to the dollar. So the state needs to get into a more stable form of, um, asset, and that is gold. So anything that we do to set up that system in Utah, we just need to move forward with it as far as I'm concerned. So, thank you for letting me speak.

Thank Mr. Chair. I would make a motion to favor recommend House Bill 1 95 for substitute Discussion to that motion.

You know, if you just imagine trying to make a payment of a couple of hundred thousand, 200,000, $327 and 12 cents in, in, in gold and how you might divide that up, it would take forever to do that. Or if someone wanted to save and preserve the purchasing power and save $5 a month or $50 a month, they can do that under this type of format. And it follows our constitutional responsibility to, to protect people in that format and would encourage committee support. Thank you.

Yes, I would. Um, it didn't get funded. And, and so, uh, in the purchasing department, we had the former purchasing director that said this kind of an approach should save money and wouldn't increase costs. And in fact, when they Uintah that kind of a fee base, it didn't increase costs. And yet the agency put a pretty hefty fiscal note on it. And so I think we're gonna study that and look into having an audit done, and then we can come back next year because the practice locally and nationally had been in, in doing this, it actually saves vendors money. So it would allow us to, to take that approach and save money for particularly rainy days and in internal inflation hedge. But we'll look at doing the audit and, and look at coming back next year with, uh, better information.

Thank you Mr. Speaker. Uh, very simple question, what is money may seem to be very simplistic at first glance, but the founders, the framers, took it very, very seriously. Article one, section 10 of the Constitution says, no state shall make anything but gold and silver legal tender in the payment of debt. We did that all the way until 1971 when we got caught with our hand in the cookie jar printing money. And France sent a battleship of doll, uh, loaded with pallets of dollars and said they want the gold. And President Nixon closed the gold window for the United States. From that time forward, the dollar has lost more than 85% of its value. What House Bill 1 95 does very, very simply is it allows vendors and service providers to the state someone selling desks, chairs, carpet services to the state to choose to be paid in gold and silver electronically, or continue to be paid in dollars, totally their choice so that they can preserve the purchasing power of their earnings and savings. Without Mr. Speaker, I would be delighted to answer any questions.

Uh, thank you Mr. Speaker. Uh, motion to move amendment number one in my name.

Uh, thank you. This is a very simple amendment that just clarifies like we do for our state tax commission. If somebody wants to use a credit card to pay for their, their state, uh, tax bill that they pay the the transaction fees, this simply clarifies that if a participant's going to receive a, a payment in physical gold or silver, that, that, that participant shall pay the transactional costs associated with the transaction and not the state of Utah.

You, Mrs. Thank you Mr. Speaker. That's a friendly amendment.

I'll waive. Okay.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This has nothing to do with the gold that we set aside in the rainy day fund. Excuse me. Under house Bill 3 48. We did that bill and that's up over 80%. We're up over $90 million in less than a year on that investment. This has nothing to do with that. Completely separate. This simply allows an RFP where the treasurer would choose a vendor that would transact payments in gold and silver. Mr. Speaker, just as an example of, of how this democratizes money. Uh, I, I have five quarters that are all pre 1965 quarters. They're 90% silver. And in, uh, 1965, the minimum Representative

Representative Ivory, no props allowed on the floor.

I I had in my hand Mr. Speaker. Five silver coins. There were pre 1965, there were 90% silver that I no longer have in my hands in 1965, Mr. Speaker, the minimum wage was a dollar and a quarter. Five of those quarters that I no longer have in my hands, minimum wage was five of those quarters. Those five 90% silver quarters today, Mr. Speaker, more than $75 if we just had this, the money that the Constitution directs, we can save the purchasing power of our earnings and savings. And that's what this bill really gets to. It allows people to have the choice to preserve their earnings and earnings of their, the purchasing power of their earnings and savings. And with them, Mr. Speaker, encourage the body support.

The highly anticipated gold bill this year. We talked about this last year and passed it. Uh, this is a bill that models the best of why Utah leads in some of the many ways. It brings together 21st century payment technology with trusted standards and transparency in pricing terms and conditions. In 2024, we requested a precious metal study here at the legislature in connection with HB 3 48. And that bill allowed that the rainy day investment in gold, treasure Oaks, Marle Oaks put together world Class study group including Randy Les Vice chair of the Federal Reserve, Gary Crittenton, CFO of Citigroup, and Amex, Harvard Law Professor expert on Money, Edwin Vira as an advisor, and Howard Headley with the Utah Bankers Association. And they came up with these recommendations found in HB 1 95 and is a recommendation of this working group to the state. So this bill provides and authorizes the treasurer and division of division of Finance to issue an open competitive RFP for precious Metals Backs payment system. And this allows the state to instantly pay willing vendors and service providers and gold and silver electronically things. It does not do, it does not mandate anyone to do anything. It does not compete with private companies and it is optional. It's just another way for the state to, to pay willing vendors adopted through our open, transparent, competitive RFP process. All of you have a little sheet on your desk if you want more and more details and comments from other people that are behind this project. And that is the bill.

Yeah. Thank you Mr. President Pro Tim. We all know the state of the dollar right now and we have made reasonable investments into gold and, and, and having gold actually be a usable currency. And it's worked to our benefit. The, the state has benefited greatly from those modest investments. This is a small step in the right, in, in that direction and it just hedges that bet. It, um, it, it doesn't mandate anything. It just gives us opportunities for when, when people may move this direction to be able to function in a society where we have, have the ability to transact with, with precious metals and things other than the dollars. So I'm supportive of this bill and appreciate the sponsor.

Uh, Mr. President, a question for the sponsor. Senator Grover, will you yield?

Yes. Okay, go ahead.

Uh, looking at, uh, the flyer that's been distributed, it says that, uh, this bill authorizes the state to act as a market participant in the use of transactional gold. My question is, are there other market participants in the use of transactional gold?

And my answer would be I have looked at this and I absolutely have no idea.

Okay. Alright. Uh, okay then, Mr. President. I, I would just kind of, I've heard, uh, from at least one, uh, group that already is a market participant in the use of transactional gold. I'm not sure that we need the state to enter this market if it, it seems to me like the, that the private market already has such participants and facilitators and I am, uh, I don't know why we would need the state government to take on this role if it's already being fulfilled in the private market.

Thank you. As we look at the, the information here on the fire, it says the challenges here, by engaging in the transactional gold market, Utah strengthens its ability to rely on Article one, the constitution to challenge the current federal tax treatment of gold as a collectible rather than as money. It advances federal engagement sets best practices, establishes market credibility. I understand there's certainly a misunderstanding here. There's, we, we need to recognize to the comment earlier of the challenge that we need to have as a reliable currency option in this space. There is an opportunity that's unmatched as you look at what the stability gold is bringing in to the marketplace. The a hundred million dollars that we put in reserve holding gold is part of our investment portfolio. It's the highest return we've ever had ever as a state. This is there, there's some sound practices and, and some sound intentionality to moving forward in this space in a positive way. So I stand in support what we're trying to do here, and I recognize that it is obviously, uh, a change, but you have in today's economic landscape leading experts respected, leading experts advocating that this is an important aspect and an alternative we have for, for our citizens. Thank you Mr. President Prote.

Yeah, thanks Mr. President Pro tem.

So as I understand it, the, the vendor would, it would go out on our R fps. Um, so it'd be a competitive process in choosing a vendor if I understand that.

Right. Um,

but the question is in, in this particular area, first of all, I wanna be clear, I think the state should invest a gold. I think this is a, a, a good thing that we've done already and, and we need to draft policy around that. But, but in picking a vendor, are we picking a, possibly building a particular vendor up by the amount of transactions that a state could do in, in this precious metal area? Senator

Grover? Yeah, that's a good question. So kind of to, to restate what you have already said, it is an RFP to hire private companies to provide this service not competing. And there are several providers of this type of service and then the state will pick one and or more and they've identified at least 12 of these types of providers.

Okay. Alright. Thank you.

Yes. Uh, this bill does move Utah into the utilization of precious metals as part of our portfolio, part of our strategy of moving forward as a, you know, a very well managed state. And this is just a slice. It's not, we're not moving everything to gold into platinum and things like that. And so with that, I'd ask your support and ask that.

Senator Vickers. Baldy Lewin Brammer Bus Cullimore. Escamilla Fillmore Grover. Aye. Harper Pass. Hankins Ipson Johnson. Kwan K Juab McKay Mikel Milner Musselman Owens Pitcher Plum Rebe Sandal Stevenson Stratton Aye. Vickers Weiler Wilson. Aye. Winterton Baldy Brammer Johnson Harper. IPBI.

Senator Grover? Yes. I appreciate the motion to reconsider our actions here. The bill is substantially the same, has not changed. And, uh, we've had some, a good debate and I don't know if you've heard from the house sponsor. If not, I'll make sure that that a helps you figure out what's going on with this bill. And I wanted to give the chance for everyone to vote on this legislation.

Grover? Yes, I do. I do A call of the Senate. Uh, we got five or more standing. We'll be in a call. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. We're in a call. And Senator, I'm gonna go ahead and place the motion because I think most people are in the chamber and we've got executive appropriations we're trying to get to. So I'm going to, uh, go ahead and take a motion And I move that first substitute house Bill 1 95 pass.