H.B. 240 Carbon Dioxide System Amendments: transcript

Sorry for the delay. Thanks for being a trooper. Appreciate it.

Well, I, I apologize to our fire marshal friends and they said they're used to working all hours, so they didn't mind sitting for the extra hour and a half to do this. So Trust me, if he was, if there was an emergency, he would've been gone. They Would've taken off. I seen it many times in my restaurant. Uh, thank you Mr. Chair and committee for hearing our bill today. This is HB two 40 carbon dioxide system amendments. Fire Marshal came to me to ask me to run this bill and in discussing what this bill does, and I'll, I'll hand that over to my friend here to do it. Um, but it is a business friendly bill. It makes sense. It's a public safety bill. And I'm surprised we haven't expanded to this point, uh, by now. But I'm gonna turn this over to fire Marshal Tony Alred, who also serves on the Fire Marshal Association board to kind of go through what this bill does.

Yeah. Thank, thank you committee for the time. Um, and for considering this, thank the representative for taking this up on our behalf. Um, CO2 as I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Go ahead and please introduce yourself and your organization. Oh, I'm sorry. Tony Allred. Um, city Fire Marshal. I sit on the board of the Fire Marshals Association of Utah, which represents county and municipal fire marshals from across the state. Thank you. Um, CO2 is an s invisible gas used in more and more enrichment processes, um, including given that fizz to popular drinks, it drive-throughs and such. Um, when handled properly, it's safe if accidentally released into enclosed spaces, it can become quickly fatal. Utah has adopted standards and codes that govern the safe installation and high level alarms for these large over a hundred pound canister systems. These are not the small portable tanks, um, but those typically refilled by delivery trucks. Um, that's what this applies to. HB two 40 seeks to help Utah Fire agencies put the kind of final measure to make these standards and co make sure these standards and codes are fall, are followed by qualified professionals. CO2 systems and alarms are currently the only life safety systems that do not have a certification system associated with them in Utah. This is unlike suppression systems, hood systems, fire extinguishers where we hang a tag and it's inspected by either your local fire marshals office or a third party or a qualified third party annually. Um, here in Utah, like other states, we've had both near misses and examples of working alarms making a difference. Um, I won't go into the exact um, instances, but we've had scenes as far as as for instance, in Leighton where we've had unfortunately teenage employees that had to be taken out. The alarms didn't go off. Um, you know, they're unconscious and the responding firefighters fell. Ill also not realizing that this was a gas situation in Murray, we've had situations where the alarm did go off very similar situations, but the alarms going off properly let them know that they were entering a hazardous environment. They were able to take the proper protections and, you know, and affect a positive outcome. Um, luckily in Utah, UN Utah, unlike other states, has avoided fatalities. So, so far HB two 40 seeks to keep it that way. HB two 40 would simply give the state fire Marshal's office the authority to develop a simple certification program for those who install and maintain these large CO2 systems. This aligns us with surrounding states and most states and helps ensure that the safety of employees, customers, and the first responders in the event of an accident. We have coordinated with Fire Marshal TED Black in the state fire marshal's office. Um, he's ready to take on this responsibility and has the outlines of what that CER certification program would become similar. He's basically, the state fire marshal would use what we've done for certification systems for other processes, the ones I described earlier. Um, there are technical experts here that know a lot more about the particular toxic properties of CO than I do. Brought many of them along. We've had a couple, some industry folks online. We're stand ready to answer any questions you have. Um, I've tried to keep this pretty short in the interest of time. Great. Um, thank you again for considering the bill. We'd ask you to pass it out with favorable

So let me just reiterate a couple things here 'cause there was some questions. This is carbon dioxide, not carbon monoxide. Uh, the alarm system that, uh, that the fire marshal is speaking of, that's already in Bill. This is not included in here. When you have a CO2 tank that in gas stations, in, uh, commercial uses that have the hundred pounds or more bigger units, we already in other statute require them to have that CO2 monitoring monitoring system. This does not apply to residential by creating a, a certification through the state fire marshal to allow a third party to come in and do the installation and certification the proper way of doing it. Uh, not only does it free up fire marshals from having to do it, businesses having to wait on that long waiting list for fire marshals to come and install and inspect it. This opens it up for the third party that's already doing, uh, inspections like hood suppressions and those such of things in commercial uses to also be certified to come and do it. So it makes it a lot easier for businesses to get up and going and have the proper equipment, um, and operating rather than waiting on the long waiting list before they couldn't open. And that concludes my presentation. Great.

Uh, Representative Thurston. Thank you Mr. Chair. I have three or four questions, if that's okay.

Uh, so the first question, uh, just could you just recap for us, the Fire marshal already runs certifications for what types of similar, um, installations or applications? We,

The State fire Marshal's office, um, runs certifications and the TAG program for, to make sure that you have to be a qualified professional to service fire extinguishers, um, hood suppression systems over the big cooking appliances in restaurants for, um, that collect grease and other flammable gases. Um, we certify alarm systems, uh, fire alarm monitoring and fire suppression systems, uh, fire riser systems, basically every other life safety system associated with the International Fire Code. Um, we make sure that somebody that's working on those systems is actually qualified to do 'em and can hang what we call a third party tag on them. Um, so that we're not, you know, so we know when we go in and look and you see that tag from the state fire marshal's office that's been worked on and certified by a qualified individual per the state fire marshal's office. This would just be bringing this last fire safety system, this fast life safety system, um, into the fold, so to speak, of those life safety systems, much like it is in just about every other surrounding state. Great,

Thank you. And to the sponsor, on line 96, you reference establishing a licensing and certification program. Could you tell me, uh, representative, what's the difference between a license and a certification

Right now? This bill will expand it so that the state fire marshal will create the program that creates the licensing and certification Of it. Yeah. So what's the difference between a license and a certification? It will make it so that third party coming in to be able to do those inspections, get licensed to be able to go and do those inspections. So the workers will require a license, not a certification. I'm like, we're, I've heard these terms thrown back and forth. They're very different in law. Yeah. And I wanna make sure I know what we're talking about here. Yeah. Well, um, it's generally it's, it is written that way in the law. It's imagined that that company receives perhaps a license and the individuals within that company would be certified. So we make sure they can do it.

Um, the bill requires basically the way, um, the state fire marshal's office has done this in the past, and they imagine this process through my conversations with fire marshal Black is, um, he would pull the board together that board a board that would consist of people from industry, the companies business owners, and fire marshals. And they would actually make a recommendation as to exactly what that certification system looks like. Um, but in short, the company itself receives the license through the state fire marshal's office and the individuals working on those systems. A lot of these companies work on various different systems. So maybe not everybody in their company would have the certification for that it's exact task, if that makes sense.

Not really, but that's okay. Oh, sorry. So representative, um, can you tell me, did this is creating a new license for a new occupation, did you, um, go to LER and have a sunrise review for this license? And if not, why not? I don't see it as creating a new sunrise for a new occupation right now for different businesses. We already have third parties, companies like State Fire, who come and do inspections on our hood systems and different things in, in where we have, um, you know, grease fires, those types of things. This lifesaving, uh, units that you said, right, The life safety systems, Life safety system, it's just augmenting another, augmenting another system that they can go and, and certify. It's not creating a whole new college, uh, industry within it. Okay. Thank you Mr. Chair. I'll leave it at that.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I I have one question. Uh, this has an implementation date of May 6th of this year. Do we feel like we'll be able to get all of this developed, get people trained, licensed and or, and or certified, and then able to roll out so that people can get the services they need by the time this is done? Or should we maybe push this out a year or so so that you can give the industry time to catch up?

I, I think that the implementation date is when the fire, the state fire marshal would begin that process was that test actually looks like there's a lot of examples around the country and, uh, I know through some of my conversations with state fire marshals, we could speak to, um, like reciprocity's an option with some of the other states that give certifications, um, what that test essentially would look like. Make sure we're coordinating with Agency people. So let's say somebody wants to get this going on in June, they'll be able to get all the services they need Right here with, so with the reciprocity. Yes. Right now we are the last, um, last three states who have not extended this certification to other third parties to go ahead and go monitor the CO2 units. So we have plenty of other states around us right now who currently already have those programs in place. As, as towards your implementation date, I would, I would defer to the, your expert reading of the bill. The way it's imagined is, is that the implementation date would start that process through the state fire marshals of creating the test and the certification system, much like we've done with fireworks and other programs.

Gotcha. I'm, I'm looking at line one 40. It says a person may not engage in the business of serving carves and dioxide system unless the person is currently licensed by the state fire marshal. So I think that it might put, I, I I feel like they, maybe you should have a, I think it might improve the bill if you have a, a way to ramp up and, and get into it, get people certified. I think that's a friendly amendment if you'd like to make that amendment to extend the on ramp for it. Yeah, somebody would want to maybe push it out a year. I, I don't know what's reasonable. Maybe a year, A year would be fine. I'm guessing the state fire marshal would probably appreciate the time suggested to get the program up and running. Well, let me ask a question, uh, as a follow up to that. Um, you're already doing it, right? What you're trying to do is get a third party to do it for you. So until that those third parties are ready to go, you can still continue doing what you're doing. Now

We, we could do that. We could continue to do it by municipality. I think one of the advantages of business friendly elements of this bill is that there is some difference between municipality and municipality to exactly the extent to which they're certifying all these systems within their municipality. And this would give the ideas that we would, after this process, we'd have some uniformity across municipalities so that a maverick here could under anticipate what a maverick there Do. But let's say the bill doesn't pass today, you'd still continue doing it in that way. Right? Each municipality would be doing it their own way. So my my point is if the bill passes, there's a, an effective date, and to your point, that's when it, the third party, third parties would start getting prepared to start doing it. When they're ready to go, they start doing it. But until then we can, the municipalities can continue to do it. I guess that's my question. And and that is correct. We're right now what we're finding is different municipalities have backlogs that's creating businesses to have to wait. Yeah. By starting this process and being able to put it in statute that we can have the ability for these third parties to start the process of getting licenses certified to do it. I think that's kind of the crux of what this bill is doing to start the process of it.

Thank you Mr. Chairman. Um, as somebody that's had to put together the rules, um, I I would highly suggest that we move the date back a little bit to give the State Fire Marshal's office time to implement this rule. Um, but I do believe that has to be a substitute where we're changing the date. So I support the bill, but I would like to, I, I don't have any problem with that substitute coming through on the floor if that's all the substitute does.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. So similar comment, if we change the effective date requires a substitute trying to work on an amendment that says something like on or after January 1st, 2027, which I think we could do by an amendment rather than a sub. And so I think staff's working on that.

Can you see me? Can you hear me? Yes, go ahead. You have two minutes. Okay. My Name is Ronald Longley. I'm coming from Las Vegas, Nevada. I represent CO2 monitoring LLC, and I wanted to speak in support of a certification by the State Fire Marshal's office. Uh, I'm a licensed contractor in multiple states. Uh, we are housed out of Nevada. I am a manufacturer of a CO2 Manti, a UL compliant, uh, CO2 monitoring system. And I also, um, permit and install monitoring systems all over the United States. Uh, Utah is one of the only states that does not require a license to certification to install. Uh, this is a code required device, uh, is, uh, was spoken earlier, says a life safety device, and it it should be installed via a license or certified company or individual. Um, these installations, they, they can be tricky. They, they do need to follow specific code requirements, um, and the people installing 'em really should understand, uh, what they're doing. So I also, um, this, the code requirement is also, uh, through the national codes. This is in both the NFPA 55 and the International Fire Code, the IFC. Um, I, I know quite a bit on these subjects. I, I actually am certified by the ICC to, to teach monitorings, uh, to, uh, fire, fire departments. So yeah, if you have any questions, uh, that's it.

I do now, I, but I'm, I'm a licensed contractor in multiple states, Nevada, California, Arizona, uh, almost every state west of the Rockies. And so I have to pass a state required licensing to actually even be able to submit for these permits in order to install these things. Now, when I hire, um, techs to do my installations, now that's under my licensing. So I have to make sure that I have CER certified these techs to know exactly what the code requirements are. We have drafting departments for specific, uh, drafting requirements for the permits. And then these techs are trained to understand where these locations for these devices go, how they're supposed to be installed. And, uh, and, and, and we have to follow up with that. And so when we get our inspections at this point, then the fire marshals come out. When we call our inspections, all they're doing is testing the systems that we put in.

that is, um, in control of writing the International Fire Code, the IFC. So I have a preferred, a preferred provider for a class that they took of mine and they certified it. So I can give two hours to continue education in CO2 monitoring and compliance.

Las Vegas. Las Vegas. You look like you're in Alaska. I guess I have to came up with the Aurora Royals behind me back.

Shelby Willis. Good evening. Can you hear me? We can hear you if you could. Yeah, there you go. Good evening. I'm Shelby Willis. I'm the, We do need to have you turn your video on. Oh, there we go. There's Shelby. Go ahead. Shelby Fire Chief for Farmington City. I'm the Vice President for the State Chiefs Association, the State Chiefs support House Bill two 40. We feel it's very important to have workers certified to be able to install these particular pieces of equipment for the safety of the employees as well as the citizens in these businesses at the time. And thank you for your time and your support.

Well, while we're waiting for them in, we can find, I'm just gonna express a, a couple of concerns. Uh, the first one, of course is the, is the implementation that, that gives me concern. And my second concern is, um, that as a government, we tend to make things harder than they need to be. And this just carte blanche, no restrictions, no guidelines, nothing to the state Ophir court martial. He can make it as easy or as hard as he wants with no guidelines from us as to what that process should be. And I am hesitant to give the executive branch that much latitude. I would rather, um, I would rather have a version of this bill that gives us narrowly tailored language that says minimum necessary follows manufacturer's guidelines or something like that. This, this just to me, seems like we're, we're just turning our authority over to the executive branch, and I'm, I'm very concerned that we should have guidelines, and maybe the answer would be, well, this is how we do for all the other ones. And the answer is, well, maybe we should look at all the other ones. So, but thank you, Mr. Chair. Those would be my comments.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move to amend. Okay. We have a motion to amend. Would you like to speak to that? Yes, I move to adopt amendment number one in house Bill two 40. Okay. We have a motion to amend in your name to, uh, HB two 40. The, uh, amendment is public

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Make a motion that we favorably recommend HP two 40 as amended.

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair. Good afternoon committee. Thank you for taking the time to, uh, hear this bill. So, HB two 40 carbon dioxide amendment was brought to me by our Fire Marshal Association. We are with this carbon dioxide. We are talking about the big tanks, the ones that are over a hundred pounds. We're not talking about the smaller ones in restaurants that are less than that. I just wanna make that very clear right now. Um, this bill is about public safety, employee safety, and making it more expedient for businesses who do have these large carbon dioxide tanks to get, um, certified. So, so they can move on with their business. So what this addresses is we are trying to make it currently, sorry. Currently in statute, these large bulk CO2 tanks are only able to get certified by, uh, fire the fire marshals. It takes a while for these fire marshals around the state to be able to get to, to looking at these tanks to make sure they are installed properly so that they don't leak. They can, if they do leak, they cause um, they can cause death. Here we are trying to make it so that we can have a program that's created by the, um, state fire marshal. So, so that, uh, third parties can come in, get cer license and certified to do the installation and inspections of these, uh, machines. I'm gonna turn it over to, uh, fire marshal already here to kinda explain a little bit more the technicalities of this.

Thank you. Yeah, thank you. Um, the fire marshals and fire service. First, we just like to thank Representative Yen for taking this on. Um, this would bring these bulk CO2, and when we refer to it as a hundred pounds, we're talking about a hundred pounds of product in this case. Um, a very kind of niche system. It's a hundred pounds of liquid, um, CO2, so not something that is transported and switched out, um, in tanks. These are permanently installed. A truck comes, delivers it as a liquid product in over a hundred pounds. Um, there's not a lot, a whole lot of employee interaction with these systems. Um, this would bring, this is a certification licensure system that is common industry-wide in, in surrounding states. And this would simply bring virtually this last life safety system that we see in the state under the auspices of the, um, state fire marshal's office to be managed, much like we do the other life safety systems in the state that is extinguisher installation, servicing, um, fire alarms, um, fire suppression, um, that type of thing. So just to reiterate, we're not licensing individuals in this. There was a little confusion on that earlier. Does not create an individual license. It would simply be managing these like we do, um, large fireworks display companies. Um, most of these companies work in surrounding states. Um, they're very familiar with this process. We haven't had any objection from industry from the folks that doing this work. Um, and the advantage to businesses is these systems would now receive a tag, much like you see on your fire extinguishers and your, um, alarm systems, um, letting us know as, as municipalities, we can come in and with some certainty know that these were installed to industry standard. Um, code for the code for how these are installed already exists. We're not creating any new code or requirements. Um, it would just be the, the ability for these third parties to, um, certify and hang a tag on these, um, so that businesses, their employees and the first responders really can be assured that these were installed correctly in this invisible odorless. Gas isn't presenting a hazard like we've unfortunately seen across the state over the last few years, um, with kind of the bloom in, you know, our fizz and swigs and those types of shops. They're, those types of shops probably represent 90% of the use of these systems. Um, they're seen occasionally also in large pools, um, trying to get away from putting acids and chlorine in their pools to adjust their pH. And then we see them in, um, large agro, um, greenhouses like we see in the, uh, cannabis industry, um, for adjusting for part of their process. So, like I said, it would just be adding that certification, these safety systems, they're all required to be alarmed. Um, so it just gives the, the fire marshal's office would create a, a tag and a certification system for the individuals doing this. Um, with that, I'm happy to answer. I know it's a little on the technical side, it's a little on the little, little, little code nerd, but, um, I'm happy to answer any questions from the committee.

Yes, it does. I just wanted to make it very clear. This does not create a doppel licensing, a new license under Doppel. This is just a life safety, uh, certification.

Hi, can you hear me? Yes. Hi, my name is Ronald Longley. Um, I'm calling from Las Vegas, Nevada, and I'm calling, I'd like to speak in support of Bill two 40. I'm a licensed contractor in multiple states, especially on the West coast. And I'm also, uh, a manufacturer of one of the monitoring systems that is, uh, used heavily in the industry. Um, I can, uh, speak from experience that Utah is, it's one of the only states on the west coast that that doesn't require some sort of licensing or certification. This is a life safety system that is, that is required by fire code, both the IFC and the NFPA 55. Um, and understanding the requirements to actually professionally install a system like this and understand the, the rules behind it is isn't common knowledge. And, uh, it would really bring a level of professionalism and, and, and, and safety and all in, in, in the installations and also the, the continued maintenance of the system. So I would really like to encourage, uh, the approval of this. If you have any questions, I'd be more than happy to answer.

We got a couple lights. Senator McKay? Yeah, I'll Make a motion then we pass the bill out favorably.

I'll waive. Thank you. Senator McKay. Waive.

Thank you. HB two 40 Carbon Dioxide Amendment is a bill that will allow state fire marshals to be able to create and, uh, create a program where third parties can come in to certify the bulk, uh, big systems that, uh, have the carbon dioxide dispensers. So a lot of us know we love our fizz and sewage companies, those companies that do high volume carbon dioxides. They have these huge tanks that have to be installed and certified by, by a license, uh, group right now, currently Utah is one of the last states that requires fire marshals to come in and do these installations and certifications. This bill will make it so that fire marshals can create the program to allow other parties to come in to certify the installation and the safety. Carbon dioxide is something that where if, if, uh, there is a leak in it, it can be deadly and harmful for employees. This does not apply to the smaller CO2 tanks in restaurants that, that most of us are thinking of. In the handout that you have, Mr. Speaker has a picture of those huge tanks that we're talking about that requires welding and requires a lot of knowledge to be able to properly install in statute already. We have a code that requires these systems to already have the CO2 monitoring and if those CO2 monitoring goes off, that means that there's a leak. So this is a big public safety thing for businesses to make sure that they are properly installed by, by certified, uh, companies who know how to do it properly. And that is my bill.

Thank you Mr. Speaker with the sponsor. You yield to a series of questions. Representative Gwynn, will you yield to a series of questions?

Yes. Yes. Representative Peck.

Okay. Thank you. Do these tanks come from the manufacturer already inspected? I'm sorry, could you repeat that again? Do these tanks come from the manufacturer already inspected?

No, the manufacturers who make these products are not allowed to inspect them. They just manufacture and they're a vendor that sells it to these companies. And the company has to use another company to come and do the installation and certify that's installed properly.

Okay, thank you. So prior to getting the tanks, they are not, they're not inspected for any safety before they buy them.

That would be on the manufacturing before it gets delivered to these businesses to use them to make sure that their manufacturing processes are done correctly into whatever code is required for those units.

Okay. Final question. So it sounds like we are the only state who's doing these type of inspections and we're, because of maybe the burden of it, we're trying to now pass it off onto another company or other companies that do this. Would it maybe be in our best interest to just get out of the business of it, of needing these inspections like other states have done? I mean, could that be another option instead of doing this bill?

So we're one of the last field states, Mr. Speaker, that currently still uses our fire marshals to come and do these inspections. By putting this in statute to make it so these fire marshals can create the program to certify other units, other parties, other vendors who come and certify it, it is essentially taking it out of the requirement by our fire marshals to have to do these, these inspections.

This is osha do any type of inspections on these tanks. OSHA is for this type of tank that we're talking about where it's the bulk CO2, it comes delivered as a liquid and it, when it's dispensed, it's dispensed as a gas. This doesn't necessarily have to do with workplace safety of it, it has to do more with just the installation and certification of the actual units itself.

Thank you.

Thank you Mr. Speaker. I just rise in support of this bill. CO2 is a, is a dangerous, uh, gas that, that we have in our, in some of our bigger commercial, uh, occupancies gas stations. We're not talking about small stuff. This, this is a, an opportunity to, to help our fire marshals throughout the state be more effective with their time. Uh, and the, the as was mentioned, the tanks are inspected but the installations are not. And that's why the certification of these systems are so important. Uh, and I just wanted to rise in support of this bill. It is an issue that our fire marshals are dealing with and this will, this will help with that, that issue. So thank you

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'll, I'll just echo what my colleague from Northern Utah said. This bill was, uh, very well vetted and researched and, uh, feel very comfortable with it and encourage your support.

Thank you Mr. Speaker. I'd like the concept of this bill for a couple of reasons for safety. So I support it and also it allows an option to extend the fire marshal's reach so they don't have to do it all. They can have other contractors or providers come in and I appreciate about the, about the bill. Thank you Mr. Speaker.

Thank you Mrs. Speaker. This bill is supported by Utah Fire Chiefs Fire Marshals Association of Utah and the Joint Joint Council, Ophir Service Organization. This is a bill I think is needed and it really, like the other speakers have said it will free up the reach of our fire marshals. So thank you.

President Most states have a, a certification system in place for large carbon dioxide, uh, systems, uh, to manage those systems. And, uh, in proposing this, uh, the Utah Fire Chiefs Fire Marshals Association of Utah Joint Council, Ophir Service organizations are in support. This helps ensure safety of employees and customers and first responders working around. These are the very large type of carbon dioxide enrich enrichment systems. It doesn't apply to restaurants or small portable CO2 tanks as they don't qualify, uh, by existing code. They don't contain enough CO2 to present hazardous when leaking. So this, uh, requires the Utah Fire Prevention Board to establish a licensing and certification program for certain carbon dioxide systems. That's what the bill does. President, I'd be open to questions. Thank you. Seeing no questions. Going to you for a motion.

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