H.B. 243 Gambling Revisions: transcript

Uh, thank you Mr. Chair, members of the committee. Um, this bill is actually very small in words, but it actually has pretty big impact. Uh, as you've probably seen in the papers. Uh, gambling, sports, gambling, online gambling has become a huge issue. It's actually, uh, uh, a new significant threat to especially young men in our country. Um, it's a multi hundred billion dollar business, uh, throughout the country. And, and so we're trying to address one specific thing here for the state of Utah. This simply, uh, as you all know, in our constitution, it's illegal to gamble in the state of Utah. All this bill does is simply adds to the definition of gambling. That proposition betting is part of that definition. I've got our Attorney General Derek Brown with me today, and I would like him to share in this presentation with you why this is important to the state of Utah.

You bet. Thank you. Thank You, Mr. Chair. Thanks for Being here. Thank you. And I appreciate your representative, Beon, for bringing this issue forward. It's, it's a, this is something we're seeing a lot more of, as he mentioned, um, the Utah Constitution prohibits gambling, and then how that is defined is of, of course, section Six. It's Attorney General. I know everybody knows you, but unfortunately,

I, who you might represent, and Sorry to be so presumptuous. I am Derek Brown. I work in the office of the Attorney General. And, uh, it's great to be here. And we've got a team of people from our office that are, that are here as well. And like I said, I appreciate what, uh, what the representative is doing. This is what, what we're seeing with the, what, what are called prop bets. And also, you know, proposition betting generally is, it's starting to blur that line between traditional gambling and gambling on apps. Gambling used to be really clear and obvious. It used to be people who, you know, drive to Las Vegas and pull down slot machines. Now, there are a lot of apps, and then what we're seeing recently in the last year or two are apps that specifically are, rather than betting on sports, for instance, they're, they're trying to make it look like it is a trade on a future. And, and to take this from the hypothetical to the real, I was sitting next to my son on Super Bowl Sunday in the morning, and he's a college student here in Utah. And he got a targeted social media ad from, uh, from a company that obviously knows these laws very, very well. It's the largest one in the country. And it said it is legal to make money on football in all 50 states. And then it, it, it would kind of a wink and a nod. It said, you can trade on football futures making money. So in other words, you can't bet that the Seahawks were going to win that evening, but you could trade on a potential future outcome in which the Seahawks would win. Now if that sounds like a distinction without a difference, it, it absolutely is in my mind, and it is gambling. And so what, what the representative is trying to do is identify that those proposition bats is defined in like the occurrence or non occurrence of an outcome are also wrapped within the existing definition of gambling. And I appreciate him doing that and bringing this, this issue forward. And that concludes our presentation.

I, I recently, can I just add, I recently, my, my team, uh, texted me one of the major apps in this country, the largest one actually in the world, had a recent, uh, uh, there was a recent wager where, uh, where you could literally make money on whether, uh, the second coming would occur in the year 2027. And the only thing disturbing to me was that in about two weeks ago, the odds roughly doubled overnight. So I have no idea why that is, and if someone knew something I didn't. But, uh, again, I haven't, just for the record, I haven't made a single penny on that.

By the way. I didn't fall asleep. And so I, one concern, are you going to deputize the course marshals on the golf courses to apprehend those betting on golf? I'm concerned about that. Why don't we see, is that, uh, is that something you want to, you wanna take care of? And, uh, I I kind Doubt that. Yeah. I don't wanna tick off your friends, you know, Just checking. That's, That's, that's not in this bill.

Just, just to be clear, there are sports betting apps, many of them in the, in the country and, and the apps of course, are not legal here in Utah. Uh, but one of the things, just as a side note, I I, I, I authored a letter with another attorney general from Connecticut on sports betting apps and just betting apps generally that are based offshore. So not only is this an issue here that we're seeing domestically, but a lot of these problems we're seeing with these offshore apps that are based in, you know, random Caribbean islands. And so a lot of the protections that are built into the apps, you, you don't see in those. So that's a whole other area. And, and you know, our hope is that Congress can do something about that, but there is something that you as a body can do about this issue here in Utah. So that's why I appreciate representative you listen, uh, taking this on.

I'd like, uh, make a motion that we favorably recommend HB 2 43 gambling revisions. Speak to that if I could.

One of the pro I think people look at, uh, our state and even look at bills like this, and they think, they think in terms of, you know, we just don't like gambling, but there's a side effect that's taken place, right? We've seen it happen. We've played out in the news with, with, uh, especially these, these kind of peripheral bets where I can just lay off a little bit in my game and only score 28 instead of 30. That's just enough to shave and, and, and for these bets to, uh, you know, go one way or the other. And all of a sudden I've, I've affected the outcome of the game. It taints the whole thing. It, it, it takes the purity out, especially in sports betting. So yeah, I'm fully on board with this. Thank you.

Yeah, I'll be supporting the bill. I just wanted to say, I, I get texts and emails from constituents all the time saying, well, gosh, why don't you legalize this form of gambling? Or this isn't that bad. Just wanna remind everybody. Our state constitution prohibits all forms of gambling, and the only way to change that is by a vote of the people. And so, uh, in addition to everything else that was said, I just wanna remind people this is prohibited by our constitution. Thank you.

I'll waive. Thank you. Care. Okay,

Wanna vote? Aye, I'm sorry. Aye, there we go.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you. Members of the committee appreciate you giving us the opportunity to come and, and speak to this bill. You've probably been watching in the news, you've probably been hearing all over the place that, um, gambling is not a new thing, but it has become a huge thing nationwide. There's been a lot of controversy on what defines gambling. There's been a lot of challenges between states. There's a lot of litigation going on in a lot of areas throughout the country, um, over gambling issues. So this bill is actually very, very simple. And, and I, and I'm not gonna spend a committee, if it's okay, I'm not gonna spend a lot of time talking about the harms of gambling. We can have that conversation if you want to, but I think we all probably understand the addictive behavior that can come with gambling and the, and the destruction that it can provide in, in people's lives financially and in their families and so forth. But we won't, we don't need to talk about those statistics. This bill is very, very simple. It just basically says that we're going to add to the definition of gambling. We already, in our state constitution says that we do not allow games of chance gambling, et cetera. This is just simply adding to that definition that prop betting proposition betting is not going to be allowed. It's, it's, uh, it's part of not, uh, is part of gambling that we will not allow it in the state of Utah. So it's a pretty simple, um, uh, one-liner that just simply says, and by the way, there is an amendment, I dunno if you guys saw the amendment and, and that just opened it up. What that amendment does is that just simply, it's not just exclusive to sports. 'cause as, you know, prop betting can be, you know, Donald Trump is going to wear an orange tie, yes or no bet 50 bucks, right? Um, so it, it's, it opens it up to any kind of, of prop betting. And I, and I've also got a, a lifeline here to the side of me that, uh, if you have questions that I cannot answer, we've got, uh, of course our Attorney General's representative here, um, to, to answer any questions. So that's basically what the bill does. It just simply adds it to the definition of bedding in the state of Utah. So, uh, does that conclude your Yes. Presentation? Mm-hmm.

Daniel Burton, Utah Attorney General's office. So, gambling is already illegal under the Constitution, and you could argue that this is already covered under that definition. Right. Because of the explosive, um, growth of proposition bets. I think the idea is to, uh, make sure that it's clear that this is part of what is already illegal under the Constitution. So it puts it only into statute.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Since we have our attorney's general's office here, Mr. Burton, it sports betting is a tremendous phenomenon that's happening. Is there any active enforcement, uh, mechanism or any active enforcement that the Attorney General is, is aware of, um, for sports betting in Utah?

Yes. So recently, uh, if, if you are, if if anywhere in the country, one of the attorneys general offices, we have, uh, been looking at a lot of these companies and how they interact with each other, how they interact in our states, um, how they, uh, set themselves up in offshore companies, how they're trying to set themselves up as being regulated by the feds and not the states. And we've been working to push back on those efforts. I think you'll also see more direct, uh, efforts in the next, uh, while I don't want to go into too much depth on that, but, uh, yes, we are, uh, looking at these companies and how they're, uh, getting into our states.

It's interesting, if I can just go a little further. We have seen a lot done on social media, and we've seen the dangers to especially, uh, young women and how social media impacts their self-image. This impacts young men far more, right? It, it's something that is affecting that population in a different way. And so I think you'll see a lot more work in this space in the coming period.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, just a quick question. When a game involves both skill and some chance, what is the controlling standard regulators and courts should apply to decide whether it's gambling under this bill?

So, right now, pretty much across the board in most states, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, most states have defined games of skill. For example, a fantasy league has been determined by multiple states as a game of skill, which would not fall under this. Because if you pay attention, if you do your homework, your chances of winning in fantasy leagues is actually better than 50%. Whereas proposition betting is a different definition. This is just proposition betting not, um, fantasy leagues. And that, that puts a lot of people's hearts at ease.

Thank you. Appreciate It. You're

Welcome. Thank you, representative.

Representative Cutler, oh, I'd like to move. Sorry, I gotta push the button. Happy to move. Amendment one. Okay.

Thank you. Yeah. Sorry. I had, um, uh, discussion to that motion.

Mine was the other motion after we have this discussion. Okay. I, I'll just speak to it. And, uh, without this amendment, people couldn't bet on whether the legislature is gonna pass a bill or not. This way, it'll make it clear that it's illegal to bet if Representative Lyon's bill gets passed or not.

Correct. If I may respond. Mr. Mr. Chair? Yep. Uh, yeah. So actually the Attorney General's office asked for this amendment for that very reason. 'cause they said, wait a minute, this needs to go beyond just sports betting. This needs to go into all prop bedding across the board. So we appreciate the, this amendment actually from the Attorney General's office.

Sure. There's, there's a, there are apps out there, and if you get into there, you can find all sorts of interesting things to bet on whether or not the Fed will change in March. Who's gonna win the best pitcher for the Oscar? Um, Grammys, it's fascinating. Um, it's also illegal. And so by taking out the word athletic, it, it broadens it to anything else that we would find in those apps.

Uh, thank you, Mr. Chair. I would make the motion that we pass out HB 2 43 as amended with a favorable recommendation.

Would you like to speak to that motion? I'll waive. Okay.

I think we've said it. Thank you for your consideration. I think this is important because this, this is gonna be a topic that's gonna be hitting even bigger nationwide, and I think this just enforces our position a little bit better as a state. Okay.

Thank you. Back to the maker of the motion. I'll waive.

House Bill 2 43, gambling revisions by representative Joseph Ellison. This bill was heard in Economic Development and Workforce Services with the vote of 8 0 2.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Um, I had a, uh, a company reach out to me and asked if I wanted to place a bet whether or not this bill was going to pass. And so I thought, well, maybe I should try it out and see if it was gonna work, whether or not the bill was gonna pass, yes or no. That would be an example. Colleagues of a proposition bet. Our state constitution is very, very clear. We do not allow betting or gambling in any form, any, any shape or form in the state of Utah. All this bill does is it simply adds the definition of proposition betting to the definition of gambling in the state of Utah, period. That's what the bill does. Mr. Speaker,

I will, yes. Representative Lee.

Thank you for the question, Mr. Speaker. So that is for the courts to decide. The, uh, this has been in con I've been in contact with the, uh, ags office. They've been a part of this conversation. Ultimately this topic and many others are going to be coming to the courts, um, whether we like it or not. So under technicality, I'm not an attorney, but they said that most likely in a court of law, it would still be considered, um, not gambling. This just provides very clear distinction that it is not to be, um, used in Utah. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise in support of this. Um, I have kids ages 22 to 32, and they know that these companies are reaching out to teenagers and especially to our young men, uh, to get involved in prediction markets, trading futures, fantasy betting groups like Robinhood and Calci Calci, and also groups that are, that, uh, they earn this money and then they don't pay taxes to Utah. There's a lot of complication, but there's also a lot of drive to get our young men, um, hooked and spend their future money and their current money and somebody else's money to be involved with this. So I rise in great support and I appreciate that the ags office is really working on being able to close this loop that it, uh, so we can support what already exists in Utah law.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker with a sponsor yield to a question.

I will. Yes. Representative.

Um, thank you. I I guess I have a question on, so if player to player fantasy type fantasy, uh, engagements where it's more based on skill, is that, is that still considered a proposition betting under this language?

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We are not addressing fantasy league, uh, sports activity with this bill. This is strictly a proposition, uh, bet. Just to give a little clarification on that, which it's a great point. There are a lot of states throughout the country who have deemed fantasy league, um, activity as a game of skill and therefore do not deem it to be gambling. There are some states, however, who have deemed it to be gambling. We have not made that distinction yet in this state of Utah. This bill does not address that specifically.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Thank

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Uh, Mr. Speaker, the, uh, question I have is most of this, uh, betting, is it going representative?

I will. Especially for him. Yes. Representative Malloy.

Thank you Mr. Speaker. Sorry for that. Um, my question is, uh, is most of this betting done on online?

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yes. Most of the prop betting is using devices through different forms of platforms, whether it be direct gambling sites or even some of these prediction market sites. So, yes,

So Mr. Speaker, the, uh, another question. My final question would be, what is the, uh, how will this be enforced and how do we enforce it if they're placing these bets outta state through, through the internet, but outta state sites?

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. So there's two things to keep in mind with this particular topic. Individuals within the state of Utah can circumvent our gambling laws by simply setting up, and I'm not trying to teach you all how to do this, by the way, but you can actually set up a VPN outside of the state of Utah and you can gamble to your heart's content that is right at this point. Nobody can stop that. The enforcement mechanism is the Attorney General's office can send a letter of cease and desist to any company who is breaking our law. If they choose not to stop acting this way in the state of Utah, then we can take legal action against them. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I really appreciate the, the conversation. I really appreciate the colleagues who spoke, uh, just behind me to this bill. This is a serious issue. Um, many of you may have or may not have read the recent article in the DET News where they showed that just the NFL alone in 2025, there was over $38 billion bet in our country just tied to the NFL. All sports betting was over $150 billion in 2025. This is a significant issue. The addictive behavior of gambling is just as serious and just as devastating as addiction to pornography or drugs or alcohol. It is a big issue. We as a state have to stand up for our values. We have to stand up for the family, which is one of our primary pillars this year, and making sure that we keep people safe, but that we also, uh, force these companies to obey our laws because it is in our constitution that they should not be engaging in these activities within our state. With that Mr. Speaker, I will sum

These bets, these proposition bets are gambling. They just are. So, um, couple of things to think about. You know, when you think about gambling, what we're really talking about is it is the greedy taking advantage of the ignorant in so many ways. Um, Martin Luther King said, gambling is morally wrong. One should live by the principle that we will not take from society without giving to it. The orderly existence of society is dependent upon this type of reciprocity. Now, One thing that everyone should be aware of is the Trump administration has taken a position against this bill and the state has already been sued because of this bill. Not only did they sue the governor, and not only did they sue the Attorney General, they sued, they sued two employees of the Attorney General by name, which is kind of weird and totally unnecessary, and I don't know why they would do that. Um, however, uh, the thing that I would say is let's not forget the impact that this has on people. Um, if you, if you talked, you know, there there's been a lot of data out there as to what happens on debt collection issues. Jews, currently, 30% of people that are, uh, who have uh, placed sports bets in the last six months, 30% say they blame gambling for their debts. 25% say they've missed bill payments because they used money to place a bet instead of pay their bills. 24% said they've used cash advances on their credit cards to place bets. 16% have taken out a personal loan for betting. 27% said they regularly wager at least $500 per month. 81% said they use betting apps or online platforms to make those wagers. It's illegal in Utah. It's hurting particularly our young men in Utah. And for that reason, I would request that I'll, I'm open to any questions on this bill. Thank you.

And I apologize if I missed this in the discussion. Oh, um, will the sponsor yield please?

Thank you. And I, I apologize if I missed this in your presentation, is a proposition bet the same thing as a prediction market?

Generally? Yes. So in a follow up, Mr. President Pro,

So let, let me, let me make sure that we're understanding, uh, will you tell me what you mean by prediction market? I need to make sure that I'm not agreeing to something when I don't know your definition. Senator Kwan. And perhaps that's part of my, uh, question too. Prediction market in my mind is something that is bet on in, in a way that is, uh, looking for a certain outcome in any kind of an event. And so it is sort of, I've heard that it is sort of in between a market a a stock market and betting and gambling. So I'm just wondering where that prediction market lies. So I just wanna make sure that we're clear.

This is relating to, and I'll give you the exact language, it is a bet on an individual action statistic occurrence or non occurrence. Okay? Now, as for the prediction market, typically if you're talking about derivatives from a commodity that has inherent value and whether that value were in will increase or decrease within an ID stock exchange, that's not what we're talking about. And so to the extent you're defining prediction market in that way, that's not true. If you're talking about shall we bet as to whether or not, uh, for example, the, uh, well I'll give you an example. Um, it, there was a bet that there would be a streaker at the Super Bowl and someone made $70,000 and it happened to be one of the people betting on that because they themselves went out and ran streaking at the Super Bowl and made a lot of money on that. Um, recently there were two major league pitchers that based on the prediction markets of what would happen during the game, they made those things happen and received money based on the prediction markets of a self-fulfilling prophecy where they were the better on it. And so to, I hope those examples help, help provide some guidance, but these can be technical as you get into the details. So I don't want to be too glib on, uh, on saying yes or no to the prediction market because I really need to understand your understanding of that before I can answer in full.

Senator Kwan, Thank you Mr. President Proti. I will be supporting this and continuing to understand what a prediction market actually is. Thank you.

Thank you. Our constitution is quite clear. We are not authorized by a body to support any form of gambling under Article six, section 26, excuse me, 27. Uh, this is really hurting our younger generation. This is preventing them from building wealth. Uh, it is, as I said, predatory behavior that, uh, is highly addictive. And to my understanding and from what I've seen, this has no social benefit. This is outside the realm of the give and take of structured society. And for that I request your support. Thank you.

Uh, this is the bill that, uh, that bans predictive markets, identifies it as gambling pursuant with our constitution. Um, and I'm o we had a great discussion yesterday, so, uh, I'm not gonna present overly on it. It's a pretty simple bill, but if you have any questions, I'm opening any questions. Thank you.

Senator Brammer, will you yield? Yes. Okay, go ahead.

No, I rise in support of this. Um, I know a lot of states make money off of lotteries and I often get asked, well, why don't we have a lottery? Um, and, and I always say the same answer. We, we have a constitutional prohibition so people get clever. Uh, everybody wants to try to, um, evade that. But if, if we want to ever allow gambling in this state, we need to have a vote of the people and, and, uh, and change our constitution. And until we change our constitution, I'll continue to support all of these bills. So I'll be voting. Aye.

Thank you very much. It, it's an important bill. It's important that we, that we clarify this. Uh, we are losing a generation. A lot of them are our young men in the state that are getting into betting and it's just destroying their financial lives moving forward. Um, it makes it really hard for them to succeed. So I highly encourage your vote. Thank you.