H.B. 295 Overdose Amendments: transcript

That's Fine. Just want Good morning committee. I'm happy to be here. Um, I thought your meeting Friday was very interesting and late. Really are here. I know. And you had a full room, but here we are. Thank you very much for letting me present today. And I have with me Evan, do, and he can introduce himself and who he's with when he speaks. Um, just a little background for thi this bill, by the way, I'm speaking to the first substitute house Bill 2 95, excuse me. And so, um, that's one I'll be speaking to, and then somebody can, um, can, um, make a motion to pass that sub, I guess you do that later on, correct? That's correct. Uh, just to give you a, a little background, um, the first time I did a bill like this, uh, which is basically, we call it Good Samaritan, bill, I, um, printed out a copy. It was 2014, and my senate sponsor was Curtis Bramble. And now, all these years later, now, I'm doing amending this particular bill. Let me just tell you briefly the backstory that prompted it. Um, I had a call about two months ago from a woman in Vernal who told me that she came home from work and she found her fiance, who was a recovering addict, but he was also a diabetic, that he appeared to be struggling to breathe and starting to turn blue. And he'd lost his job in the oil fields, and he'd been despondent, and she tried to find naloxone and insulin. And then she just called the police and they came and they saved his life. They had two young kids, by the way. And then a couple weeks later, they got communication from the prosecutor's office in Vernal that her fiance was being charged with use and possession, third degree felonies. And she, um, she knew about this law and she researched it. She even listened to the testimony back in 2014, and they wrote to the prosecutors and said, we think that he should get an affirmative defense. And they said, well, the reporter does. The person who calls that was the woman, and she wasn't a drug, she wasn't using drugs. And so, um, they, that she called me and we talked. And, um, I've talked to others and met with Senator Plumb. She was then Dr. Plum, who reached out to me to pass the first Good Samaritan Law. And with the, uh, working group, we've had a law enforcement and people in the recovery community, like, um, Evan, we've come up with, uh, this bill, this substitute that puts in some safeguards. But the more important thing is, what it does is it says, if you look at the handout, um, just one second, that, um, it creates, the first one created a mitigating factor in affirmative defense. But this one changes it by saying that the individual who we wanna save the life, that's the clear thing of the person experiencing the overdose. But we also want them to get treatment. So instead of getting a dismissal on the first time, uh, we talked about that. We decided along with law enforcement and others, that we wanted that people to show proof that they were getting in a treatment program. And they'll have time to complete that. If they, once they show they're in a treatment program, they'll have time to, to complete that, then they'll get an affirmative defense and there will not be charges. So that's the change in the bill, the first change, and then the, as far as amendments go. Um, and the second part of it is that, uh, I had a police chief reach out to me and say, we don't want drug dealers to get an affirmative defense or a pass. So we put in the part, and it's on. Now, I, it's in two places now. This bill looks is long, and it's because Lacey has explained it to me multiple times that we had to do coordinating clauses. And if you want a better explanation than that, you can, I can ask Lacey to explain it, but on lines, it's on three something, but also on 5 85 to 5 88, the possession or use of less than six ounces of marijuana or the possession or use of a scheduled drug. In other words, if they have more than that, and it appears they're dealing drugs, we don't want them to get, you know, a pass. We don't want them to get it, an affirmative defense. So that covers the two things that were critical to. And by the way, uh, Senator Plumb and I, um, met with the Fentanyl Task Force, uh, several months ago. Lacey was there as well. And, um, we, um, took the advice from law enforcement and others that were there, and, um, they're happy with this bill now. So, um, if I may have Evan do, um, talk a little bit about this, because he's been, let me just add this, the thing that I am so pleased about in all these years since 2014, and Evan can speak to this because he works in this field, that we, this has saved hundreds, if not thousands of lives. And every year when we have the rally for recovery in the, in the rotunda, and there are six, 700 people, I've had people come up to me and say, I want you to meet my mother. She saved my life. She had Naloxone because starting in 2014, I passed the first Naloxone bill that said, A doctor can prescribe it to someone other than the patient. Well, a patient couldn't save their life, so nobody had access to it except doctors. And they were dumping people off in front of emergency rooms. Doctor, she is Zawa, who was a senator for a while, was an ER doctor. And that happened all the time. And he sponsored the first bill with me, subsequently a bill that said police officers could carry it. Then outreach overdose providers at local public health around the state could distribute it. And now with, uh, representative Lyons bill of about two years ago, anyone can get up to three kits of Naloxone at public libraries. And I tell this, I speak to a lot of high school classes, and I tell 'em that, and that too has saved more lives. So, with that, if I could turn over a few minutes to Evan do, Mr. Chair.

Alright, great. Good morning. Uh, my name is Evan Do. I'm the advocacy and Public Policy Director with the Utah Support Advocates for Recovery Awareness. I'm also a person in long-term recovery myself, and I'd like to thank the sponsor for this bill. Um, uh, in the last 10 years, we've made remarkable strides in reducing overdose deaths here in the state of Utah. In fact, when other states have seen their overdose rates surging to unprecedented numbers, ours have remained flat because of legislation like this, like the Good Samaritan Law and our Naloxone laws that have made it so that people can save a life. Um, we want to make sure that we make it clear that an overdose is a medical emergency. And in that medical emergency seconds count, we don't want anyone hesitating for even a single moment to call 9 1 1. We want people to call 9 1 1 and get the help people need in that moment, rather than doing things like worrying about whether that their loved one's gonna get in trouble or trying to do things like hide paraphernalia or hide small amounts of drugs, seconds count in those times. And so we wanna make sure that people are getting the help they need in that moment, and they're calling 9 1 1 as soon as possible. So this legislation helps, uh, people do that. Uh, so thank you so much to the sponsor for bringing forth this legislation and for the countless lives that have been saved as a result of these kinds of laws.

Thank you. And if I might add on the, uh, handout, if you look at the second reiterates what Evan was saying about our drug overdoses, we still have, look at that 10 utahans die every week from a drug overdose, but the number of people dying in the 2000 teens was huge. And it went up and up until about 2018, and they were dying from, uh, prescription drug oxycodone, Oxycontin, and heroin. And then it started dropping off and going down to the 20, 20 20. And the last few years, it's gone up again. And it's fentanyl. It's all about fentanyl. So that's what we're combating now. But I just wanted you to know that it made a huge difference. And, um, I'm proud of what I did with a lot of help of a lot of people. Like I said, um, then Dr. Plum reached out and helped me with those. And you probably know the tragedy in her life, her 22-year-old brother many years ago died of an overdose when his friends all abandoned him and left him to die. And that's what got her on this path too. So with that, I'm happy to answer any questions.

I'm not sure I can answer that, Evan. I, you know, I think that there's a number of different entities that distribute Naloxone in our state. We've got U Utah Naloxone that does that primarily. Uh, but, um, they only, Utah Naloxone only distributes the intermuscular version of Naloxone uhhuh. We've also got Naloxone that's distributed the nasal version by the State health department and local health departments across the state. And so there's a few different entities that distribute that medication. Um, but yeah, it's, it's, uh, it's, we we're still trying to expand the distribution and get, get into more hands. Could I just add this, but insurance will pay for that nasal spray is, I've campaigned many years and talked about this. People at the door, particularly older people look at me like, well, why would you tell me, do you think I'm an addict? And I say, well, if anyone in your family, you or your spouse, right, using a pain medication, you should have one on hand. So it is available in the nasal spray as well as the injectable.

Um, there are probably people here who can answer better than I have been in asking people, particularly, uh, Senator Plumb, it takes more than one dose, right? Two, maybe more. But they are saving, it is saving, saving lives, but it takes more.

Mr. Chair, could I just add that? Yeah. We are getting millions of dollars a year still from that, uh, Sackler family from Purdue Pharmacy. They had to pay out billions of dollars and still are pain. And it's mostly it's going to treatment. Yeah. Yep. Okay. Thank you.

Mr. Chair, members of the committee. My name is Carl Holland. I'm the Executive Director of Statewide Association of Prosecutors. I'll keep it short. Uh, had the opportunity to meet with the good sponsor. She was responsive to our suggestions to improve this bill. We really like where it's at. We think that it's a great bill, good public policy behind it. We think that it will help save lives and get people into treatment. So we'd ask for your support. Thank you.

Good morning, Mr. Chairman, members of the committee. My name is Brett Robinson with the Salt Lake County District Attorney's Office, and we also support same reasons that, uh, Mr. Holland also just addressed, but we also love that it also preserves prosecutorial discretion. Um, so we think we get all the benefits without any, without any downsides, so we encourage support.

Good morning, Mr. Chairman and committee members. Uh, my name is Mark Moffitt. I'm here on behalf of the Defense Lawyers Association. Uh, we appreciate Representative Moss bringing this bill. We wholeheartedly support it. It does a number of important things, but from our perspective, the thing that I think is, uh, really critical is the component of the bill that allows the affirmative defense or the mitigating factors to apply to the victim of the overdose. You just don't want to have a situation where people may be chilled in their desire to report this matter. So, um, we would encourage the committee's support. Thank you. Thank You.

Go ahead, Dan. Thanks. I'll Be be done with you in just a minute. Dan Strong for the sentencing commission. We discussed the bill, uh, last week, and as you heard from some of our members, just a minute, there's a lot of support for the policy. And, um, I think that this, uh, this affirmative defense has been useful in court in, in recent years, and this seems to kind of expand on a successful policy. So thank you to Representative Moss. And we encourage support as well. Just under Mark's timer, man, you guys are rocking it.

I move that we adopt for substitute HB 2 95.

I'll waive.

I waive A, go ahead and place the motion.

I move that we pass out with a favorable recommendation. HB 2 95 overdose amendments first substitute.

I'd just like to thank all those who worked with me and you've heard from them. And make this bill, uh, focus on people getting treatment, saving lives, continue to save lives, and, and people getting into treatment. And that's the key part. Thank you.

Thank you very much, Mr. Co-Chair, I guess since you're not Senator Weiler, Wanna be chair? Yeah, I'm thank, I appreciate being here and good afternoon committee, um, house Bill 2 95. First substitute is, um, You have handouts. I do all Do you wanna make a request on that? I please have. Yes. Internet give out in the handouts, uh, is based on a bill that was passed in 2011 with one of your four that I was the sponsor of. And one of your former colleagues was the co-sponsor, Senator Kurt Bramble. And it was, uh, the same name House bill, and it was House Bill 11 and it was, uh, colloquially called the Good Samaritan bill. And it came about as a result of, uh, now Senator Plumb and just Dr. Plum, not just, but she's now Senator Dr. Plum. Uh, her brother's tragic overdose when his friends abandoned him because they were afraid to call for help. That because they'd be charged with use of possession. And also two former students of mine whose families reached out and said that had happened. So what the bill do did then, and for many years has given an affirmative defense to the person calling, uh, to report an overdose and also to the person who is the overdose fic victim. And to my knowledge, I hadn't had anyone tell me anything different till about two months ago. In other words, police have rescued and paramedics thousands of people and, and, and saved their lives. And it, it, it was a huge benefit when the opioid o epidemic was going on in the late from that time until about 2018. And then the overdose deaths went down a great deal. Now, sadly, they're going up again because of fentanyl. So a month or so, about two months ago, I heard from a woman in Vernal who said she came home from work and she found her, um, fiance. And they had two young children who had lost his job in the oil fields. And he was a recovering addict, but he's also diabetic. And he was barely breathing. And she called for help. She looked for Naloxone, she looked for, um, looked for, um, medication for his insulin, but she called the police and they saved his life. And several weeks later, they heard from the prosecutors in Vernal that they were going to charge him with third degree felonies because they found paraphernalia. And so she thought this bill covered that. But in looking at the circumstances, we decided that Senator Plumb and I, that we want the, to continue saving lives. We, that's the primary thing. But in our working group, we decided that we wanted people to get into treatment. And that's what changes with this. So this substitute clarifies the affirmative defense, and a mitigating factor covers both the overdose victim and the person who reports it, but they only acqua qualify for that affirmative defense if it's the individual's first time being charged with the offense. And they have to show proof that they completed a substance abuse evaluation in any recommended treatment. And I think that's reasonable and fair based on the fact that we don't want people to just continue to use and, and, and repeat this, um, this cycle. So that's one thing the bill does. It's very long bill, because they had to do coordinating clauses. So when I saw how many pages, I thought, this looks complicated, but it really is not. The other thing, one of the, uh, police chief here in Salt Lake County reached out to me and he said, I don't wanna see drug dealers getting a pass. So we include in there, in this that, um, drug offenses will qualify for an affirmative offense if there's less than 16 ounces of marijuana with no intent to distribute or any other controlled substance. So those are the, the main changes. And the thing that was ironic about the case in Vernal was the woman, they were, she was told the prosecutor said she got an affirmative defense, but she wasn't using drugs. So this really applies to both, in both cases. And that's what the bill does. And, um, I'm happy to answer any questions.

Mr. Chair members, The committee. Hey, go ahead. Thank you so much. Carl Hollands statewide Association of Prosecutors. We wanna thank the sponsor for bringing this bill. We think it's very well thought out. We think that it does the important thing here. It saves lives before it worries about consequences. Uh, and statewide Association of Prosecutors is supportive of this. Bill, Thank you so much. Appreciate your brief comment.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My name is Mark Moffitt. I'm here on behalf of the Defense Lawyers Association. I agree with everything that Mr. Holland said. Uh, we believe that this bill is, is appropriate. Uh, we never want to have a situation where somebody who is, uh, attending to somebody who is overdosing is afraid to call for help because they're worried that the overdosing victim is going to somehow or another get in trouble. So we support the bill and we thank Representative Moss for bringing it. Thank you. Thank you.

I'm Adam Peterson. Um, so I've been working with a lot of people at UHRC. And, uh, one of the things that concerns me about this is, uh, a lot of times the police officers will, uh, they, they kind of tell people that their intent was to distribute right? Even though it may be their personal stash or something like that. And so I think the amount, uh, worries me. Like, and, and the fact that it's open to interpretation for a law enforcement officer to say that, um, that their intent is to distribute, right? So that way they can still prosecute and there's, there's no legal defense for the people that are trying to save the life. Okay? So I think that's one of the things that needs to be addressed.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. My name's Evan Donn. I'm the advocacy and Public policy Director for the Utah Support Advocates for Recovery Awareness. I'm also a person of long-term recovery myself. I want to thank the sponsor for this bill. We're very much in support of it. Um, in the time that Utah has been dealing with the overdose crisis, we've made remarkable strides in reducing overdose deaths across our state. Uh, we've seen those numbers, uh, in other states, uh, skyrocket. While our numbers have stayed flat, largely because we've had things like Naloxone access and the Good Samaritan law in the books. This, uh, this bill will improve our Good Samaritan law to make sure that more people are protected and that no one is hesitating when they're calling 9 1 1, which is critical moments, um, when someone can live or die. And so we wanna make sure that people are calling 9 1 1 quickly and often. Thank you so much.

I'll just turn it on. Senator Baldry. Oh, sorry. No, um, I lost the number, but 95. Thank you for substitute. Okay. So, uh, I move that we pass with a favorable recommendation. First substitute 2 95 House Bill 2 95 to the full body of the Senate. All right, the motion is to favorably recommend first substitute House Bill 2 95.

Thank you very much. And, um, again, I just wanna reiterate that the goal of this bill initially and still is, is to save lives. And we know it has, we recently had our overdose rec recovery day, and there's nothing more gratifying than having somebody come up and say, thanks to laws that I've passed and others, my life was saved. And so we wanna continue doing that. Thank you very much.

I'm sorry. I'm, I'm supposed to be in another committee. I'm already moving mentally to

Thank you very much. It's a little emotional for me. It really is today, but thank you very much.

Thank you Mr. Speaker. I think everyone's tired, so I'll try to go quickly. Uh, I wanna give you just a little background on this first, and you do have a handout if you wanted to, uh, uh, check that out. In two th thousand and 14, I passed house bill 11 overdosing reporting amendments. And it's been been 12 years now and I'm making amendments to that initial bill. And the purpose for that was, it was then Dr. Jennifer Plum who reached out to me and asked me if I would run a Good Samaritan law because people were dying of overdoses. Then in 2014, the opioid epidemic was going on and, and, and we had a huge number of overdose deaths. And many of them were people that had been left by their friends 'cause they were afraid to call for help. And one of them was now Senator Plums brother, 22 years ago at 22. And I had two former students, similar thing happen. They abandoned their friends 'cause they were afraid of being charged. So the Good Samaritan Law gave them an, the person calling an affirmative defense as long as they stayed with the person and told that they didn't have to give their name. They just told the police or the paramedics that, um, what the person had taken. And so they would save a life. And so this saved, we think, we don't know, but hundreds, maybe thousands of lives in the past 12 years. And then a few months ago, I heard from a, a woman in Vernal who said her, she came home from work, her fiance was turning blue and he was a recovering addict and he was also diabetic, so she didn't know if he needed insulin or naloxone. So she called the police, they saved his life. A few weeks later, he was notified by the prosecutors in Vernal that he was going to be charged with third degree felonies. Now if you knew that and you didn't, you might not call for help. And so the reason, as a result of that, and now Senator Plumb and I met with the Fentanyl task force, we discussed this law enforcement, uh, worked on this with us. And this is the, these are the amendments. You can still call for help and cons and it will be considered an affirmative defense for the person calling. But the person that is being saved, the person overdosing, will have to provide proof that they completed a substance abuse evaluation in any recommended treatment. So they, they would wait and see, give them time before they adjudicated the case to have them complete treatment. And I think this is a very good idea because we don't want people to just keep repeating this. We want them to get well. And so that's, that's one part of it. And the other is a police chief reach out to me who's, he was the first one to have his police force get, um, funding from a grant. So police officers could carry Naloxone. Before that, they couldn't. And so he wanted to make sure that people that were dealing drugs and called for help were not going to get an affirmative defense. So that's written into it as into the bill as well, if they have a more than, um, if they have possession or use of less than 60 ounces of marijuana without intent to distribute or any other scheduled controlled substances other than marijuana. So that's what the bill does, and I think it will continue to save lives. And I'm very happy to say that over the period of time, opioid deaths have reduced in number. But now sadly, fentanyl is killing many people. Now Naloxone can save the life of somebody who's taken fentanyl, but it often takes two or more doses. So that completes my presentation, Mr. Speaker, and I'd be happy to answer any questions.

Thank you. Uh, it, it is going to save lives and I very much appreciate your support.