H.B. 304 Cash Payments Amendments: transcript

House Business, Labor, and Commerce Committee, Feb 18, 2026

1. Committee chair (presiding)1:43:46

   We'll go to, uh, agenda item number three, cash payments amendments. HB 3 0 4. Representative Shelley

2. Rep. Kristen Chevrier1:43:59

   Thank you Chair and committee members in crafting this bill. Oh, I have, I have with me, uh, the state treasurer Marlo Oaks to co-present with me. Okay. Alright. Thank you. We're, and if you didn't catch the memo before, we're gonna, we're gonna go as quickly as possible, but still do Our business. We did catch that memo. Okay. All right. So, um, we will go as quickly as possible in crafting this bill, we have worked with taking feedback from the restaurant association, the retailers association, the division of Division of Consumer Protection, Utah system of higher education, the state treasurer's office, and other stakeholders. The bill applies only to a place of business with 10 or more employees that regularly accepts digital or card payments in person. So think brick and mortar, not Facebook marketplace. There's a sub online sub one in the sub. We have delayed implementation to July of two thou, uh, 2027, carved out businesses with fewer than 10 employees, many of which prefer cash anyway and allowed for change to be given in the form of store credit. All of these at the request of stakeholders, HB 3 0 4 preserves the ability for Utah Utahns to use cash in everyday transactions as payment systems continue to evolve, ensuring that payment choice remains available while addressing concerns about digital exclusion. Infrastructure, reliability, and privacy. The bill does not prevent businesses from accepting digital payments or new technology. It simply ensures that lawful US currency remains usable in physical commerce as more businesses move toward cashless models. Electronic payments depend on power, telecommunications and network availability. When outages occur, outages cyber in incidents or technological failures occur, electronic payments can stop entirely. Cash provides a simple and immediate backup that allows commerce to continue during disruptions or emergencies. Several of the countries that had moved quickly towards using cashless models are now moving back. Uh, countries such as Slovakia and Norway and the Netherlands and Sweden have adopted and considered policies protecting cash as legal tender and payment. Um, eliminating cash does not eliminate risk. It concentrates it within electronic systems that can expose many victims at once. Maintaining multiple payment methods spreads risk, and avoids creating new vulnerabilities while attempting to solve others when cash is refused. Individuals who are otherwise not able to pay can be excluded from participating in ordinary transactions. Maintaining cash acceptance helps ensure that lawful currency remains stable, usable by all Utahans. Um, cash is used more frequently by lower income households and minority communities because it allows people to manage spending directly avoid fees and operate without relying on banking services. Utah, I mean, sorry, I skipped one. Um, HB 3 0 4 is not about preferring cash over digital payments, it is about preserving choice system resilience and practical access during rapid technological change. Go ahead.

3. Marlo Oaks, State Treasurer1:47:29

   Well, thank you. Uh, Marlow Oak State Treasurer. Um, just a couple of points here. Digital payments bring clear benefits, but uh, they operate through systems that can become centralized. Um, from a public policy perspective, it is important to preserve, balance, and avoid concentrating all commerce within systems that could over time become centralized, programmable, or fully trackable. Cash serves an important structural role because it allows lawful transactions to occur without requiring approval from an intermediary or creating a permanent digital record. And with that, I will, That is our presentation.

4. Committee chair (presiding)1:48:04

   Alright. Thank you. Great presentation. Appreciate it. Alright, well take it to the committee for clarifying questions, Representative Thurston.

5. Rep. Norman K Thurston1:48:13

   Thank you. So would this apply to a sport like a 60,000 foot, uh, seat football stadium that has concession stands all throughout the stadium?

6. Rep. Kristen Chevrier1:48:23

   So we have talked about that and I can't remember the answer date. Well, they have more than 10 employees, if that helps. So I skimmed over a lot of my presentation. So yes, it does Apply. Yes. And it is, that was part of the fiscal note, um, was having, uh, the hardware available. So that's the reason. Thank you. That is the reason that we've delayed implementation. Yui is planning to do a study on this to figure out how it affects the schools.

7. Rep. Norman K Thurston1:48:53speaker not certain

   And that would be the stadiums you're referring to, right? Well,

8. Rep. Kristen Chevrier1:48:56speaker not certain

   There's Yui, there's other private stadiums. Um, Okay. Delta Center. So there, there is going to be a study by Yushi on how this impacts like the, the campus structure, because we have a whole bunch of private businesses that are within the campus. It's not like a campus cafeteria anymore. Like some of the old folks in here probably had, when they Uintah school, it is Subway or Pizza Hut that is inside the college campus. So what the study will do is figure out how, what the impact is going to be on universities in that situation. Does that help?

9. Rep. Norman K Thurston1:49:37speaker not certain

   That answers my question. I don't know if it helps, but it answers my question.

10. Committee chair (presiding)1:49:41

    Okay. All right. Thank you Representative Peterson.

11. Rep. Peterson (identity unclear)1:49:44speaker not certain

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, would this, a, would this apply to a city that has say a bunch of 14, 15, 16-year-old kids running a concession stand at a softball field? No, it specifically does not. It applies to a government building and interactions that take place inside the government building, but it does not apply to like the Highland Fling. Okay. Or something like that. And I'm all for what you're trying to do. 'cause I believe in what we are doing, uh, as far as making sure we have a cash market. But I also have concern with the government mandating, uh, a business how they, what kind of payment that they can take. So I, I'm against the bill that we have before us. I'm hoping we can come up with a better solution of how we maintain a a, a cash system in our, in our state.

12. Committee chair (presiding)1:50:39

    So, thank you. Respond. Yeah.

13. Rep. Kristen Chevrier1:50:41

    Can I, can I respond to that? Um, yeah, so I think business autonomy is really important. Um, but eliminating cash really opens the door for concentrated power and centralized payment systems, creating the potential for program programmable money, transaction tracking and discrimination based on political views, purchasing behavior, or other criteria. And so from that perspective, I think it is important to maintain that cash option.

14. Rep. James A. Dunnigan1:51:09

    Okay. Representative Dunnigan? Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So I just need to have this clear. The bill says a supplier or a government entity. So to me it sounds like it's two different things. Talks about government also, and it defines a supplier. It's got at least a physical place of business, a physical point of service. So how is that defined? Is a Pizza hut sending out the delivery guy and they go up to the door and, you know, they say, oh, you gotta pay with cash. They say, no, it's gotta be credit. It has to be inside a brick and mortar building. Where does it say that? It says a physical point, but how do you, I don't, how does it define a physical point of service?

15. Rep. Kristen Chevrier1:51:51speaker not certain

    All, all this read line 90, a physical point of sale means the location at a supplier's pace of business where a consumer provides payment in exchange for good or service.

16. Rep. James A. Dunnigan1:52:00

    We have a lot of mobile services now, you know, and so that's, I'm, I think that definition at the very least needs some work. Do you, but to represent Peterson's point, let's say that you've got a, a community festival and you've got physical points of sale. There are many businesses that they do not want their businesses or their employees handling cash for security reasons. They don't. There's pilfering, there's theft. Okay. Uh, could happen with credit, I think it's much less likely. So there are businesses that just don't take cash. I like cash. I, I just want you to know, I, I like cash a lot, but I'm a cash person. I have cash in my wallet right now. Not enough to make anybody do anything. But, um, I don't, this bill for me is not workable. We're going in and we're gonna tell people, this is all you have to take. And the pizza delivery guy, you go to a festival, they got all these booths set up. Um, they may have 10 or more employees. I don't think the delineation between a supplier and government entity is very clear. But if you'd like to respond to that, please.

17. Rep. Kristen Chevrier1:53:08speaker not certain

    So none of this is doing away with digital payments. Um, no, I understand. Everybody can take digital payments.

18. Rep. James A. Dunnigan1:53:13

    Understand. That's not my point. Point is many employers now don't want their employees handling cash. They are worried about theft and rightfully so, in my opinion. Mm-hmm. They are much more confident than just taking digital payment. So I don't know if you wanna respond to that, but thank you.

19. Committee chair (presiding)1:53:33

    Okay. It appears there no other clarifying questions from the committee. Well, is there anybody from the public that would like to speak to this bill? Yes. It looks like we have two. Let's keep it, uh, a minute and a half if you can. Minute and 30 seconds. Do you want me to go? Casey, you wanna come sit up? Just if you're gonna speak, go sit there if there's a, an empty seat.

20. Jake Anderegg, housing authority representative1:53:58

    Thank you. Um, Jake Andre once again, uh, representing Naro, which is the housing authorities, um, government and or supplier. Um, Naro actually administers both the federal and the state, uh, section eight housing. And we believe that we would be under the umbrella of needing to accept cash. We do have physical locations where the vast majority of payments are made. Um, and if, if we have people coming in, uh, tenants coming in with thousands of dollars, predictably every month to pay cash, uh, around the first of the month, that creates a significant safety concern. So, um, I myself, like, as digital as much as possible, but I have been ticked off several times when they wouldn't accept the cash that I had. So I understand the point of the bill. However, um, I've, I've met with the representative and she is willing to work with us on either establishing an exclusion specific to housing authorities or to do some sort of cash limit. Like if it's over X amount, then the cash would not be required. I think when you're talking about significant sums of money, several hundred dollars or more, it's probably problematic and creates the, the scenario where there is safety concerns. So in the, the bill's current form, I would urge your rejecting it, but I will fully admit that the representative was willing to work with us. So if, if those changes are made, we could be found to support the bill. Okay.

21. Committee chair (presiding)1:55:31

    Thank you. Uh, Casey, go ahead.

22. Casey Hill, NFIB1:55:34

    Thank you. Uh, Mr. Chair. My name is Casey Hill, again, representing NFIB. Today. The, uh, national Federation of Independent Businesses. We represent 3,500 small businesses in the state. Um, we are opposed to the bill as it currently, uh, is written. Um, worked with the sponsor in trying to make it better. But as of as of now, uh, we're, our comfort level is just not there where we can be supportive. Um, our small businesses, um, often choose to be cashless. That is a right of a, uh, of a small business owner. If that means that they are not able to then provide service to certain individuals who prefer to, uh, transacting cash, they're making that decision of their own accord as the, as a small business owner has the right to, and, and we would fight to preserve their right to make that decision. Um, in addition, there are cost related to maintaining cash drawers, training employees on reconciliation for cash, conducting daily accounting balances, uh, transporting those deposits, paying for armored car pickups and increased insurance costs associated with that. Managing risks of counterfeit and addressing internal, uh, theft. Um, shrinkage isn't just a statement that comes from, uh, Seinfeld. It's a real thing in business. And, uh, we ask you to, uh, to please, uh, not support this bill right now.

23. Committee chair (presiding)1:57:11

    Thank you. Go ahead sir.

24. Vito Leone, business owner, Bountiful1:57:14

    Hi, my name is Vito. Sorry about my attire. I came straight from work. I'm a, uh, small business owner. I own a restaurant in b Utah called Veto's. I am cash only. I do not accept cards. I've been in business for 19 years. I have a crazy pay system. I actually have a bucket on the counter. You make your own change. We're on the owner system. I have never once been shorted. I've never been robbed. So theft isn't a problem. Um, the reason I do this is to cut down costs. Those merchant merchant fees will kill you. So I can actually take those savings and pass those on to the consumer. 'cause I'm about four to $5 cheaper than any other fieldy place out there. So that's one advantage. Um, another advantage then keep cooking. I can crank food out. I'm sorry about this. The nice thing about cash is I always have cash on hand so I can play, pay my suppliers, pay my bills. I'm not waiting for the credit card companies to send me a check for all the merchant merchant charges. I've always been a cash person. I've been in the restaurant business for 40 years. I've cooked, waited tables, bartended. So I always had cash on hand. I've always worked for tips. Uh, the thing frustrating for me is that if I go into a business that doesn't accept cash, it, it just, it's frustrating. It seems discriminating. I mean, on every bill that's printed, it says this is legal tender or legal note tender for all debts owed. And it's right on the, on the dollar bill. So it's just, it seems like discrimination to me if they won't take cash. Uh, thank you. Appreciate it.

25. Committee chair (presiding)1:58:50

    Looks like there are a couple comments for committee. Let's keep it, keep it short. Uh, sir, what do you, I question did, did I just thought you didn't wanna answer the questions. I, I'd, I'd agree with you if you So Sorry. Alright. It's been a long day. Representative Peterson, let's, let's go ahead.

26. Rep. Peterson (identity unclear)1:59:13speaker not certain

    Thank you, Mr. Chair. Do you like the fact that the government doesn't tell you you have to use cards, take cards?

27. Vito Leone, business owner, Bountiful1:59:20

    Well, yes. Okay. Yes. Yep. Thank you. Mm-hmm.

28. Committee chair (presiding)1:59:22

    Alright. Representative Thurston. Oh.

29. Rep. Norman K Thurston1:59:27

    So if the government required you to accept gold and silver coins, would that make you feel better With the price of gold? Right

30. Vito Leone, business owner, Bountiful1:59:34

    now, I've just, like I said, strictly just been cash. You know, that's why I'm saying I've never dealt with anything else. It's Your choice. Yeah.

31. Rep. Norman K Thurston1:59:42

    You get it. Decide it's, it is my choice. Okay. Thank you. But it does seem like discrimination if they won't take cash. 'cause it even says right on the bills that this is legal tender for all debts owed. Does It seem like discrimination that you won't take cards?

32. Vito Leone, business owner, Bountiful1:59:55

    No. 'cause that's my choice and I'm passing those savings on to the consumer. Okay,

33. Rep. Norman K Thurston1:59:58speaker not certain

    Great. Thank you. I mean,

34. Committee chair (presiding)2:00:01

    All right. Representative Ballard,

35. Rep. Melissa G. Ballard2:00:02

    just wanna say, I love eating at Veto's.

36. Vito Leone, business owner, Bountiful2:00:05speaker not certain

    Oh, thank you. Okay. Yeah.

37. Rep. Melissa G. Ballard2:00:10speaker not certain

    Um, no more questions. No questions. I think I need to go check out Vita's. It sounds good.

38. Committee chair (presiding)2:00:17

    Alright. So that, uh, we have a pull a comment. Okay. Uh, Catherine Fitz online, uh, go ahead. Yeah, Catherine, go ahead and turn your camera on and, and introduce yourself. Let us know your location.

39. Catherine Austin Fitts, resident, Florida2:00:41

    Yes. So my name is Catherine Austin Fitz, I'm speaking to you from Florida. I published the solar report, which is focused among other things on financial freedom, including protecting cash. Um, and I, uh, concur with many of the other people who've spoken as to inclusion, resilience costs. I don't need to repeat those. I would point out, if you look at how much money comes out of Utah in credit card fees, it is very significant. We're talking about one to $2 billion that is no longer circulating in the economy. And I would also point out, if you look at, there's still a significant number of households in Utah that do not have credit cards. And requiring them to get them so that they can do business with, with people who are basically working with the government is, uh, you know, can be, uh, a very expensive proposition and difficult for them. And also also opens them up to credit card fraud and cyber crime and, um, and identity theft, which is not insignificant and they're the least able to do it. But I think the most important issue here is one that, um, may not be clear. We have significant interests in the banking system outside of Utah to create a hundred percent digital system so that they can implement central control and credit, social credit systems through the banking system. And that is a serious threat to both the state sovereignty and the individual sovereignty of citizens.

40. Unknown speaker2:02:18speaker not certain

    Okay. Within Utah. And part of considering this bill should be Considering Thank, thank you. Catherine's gonna protect the state from that. Thank you for Okay. Thank you, opportunity. Appreciate it.

41. Committee chair (presiding)2:02:29

    Uh, Kristen, Richie, will you turn your camera on and let us know your location? It is Kristen. Kristen, go ahead and and turn your camera on. All right. Kristen, will you figure that out?

42. Committee chair (presiding)2:03:29

    We're gonna go ahead to Jennifer Markham. Jennifer, go ahead. Turn your camera on. Let us know your location.

43. Jennifer Marcum, resident, Davis County2:03:44

    Girls, come here. Hello, my name is Jennifer Markham. Can you guys hear me? I'm, We can.

44. Committee chair (presiding)2:03:51

    Where where are you coming from, Jennifer?

45. Jennifer Marcum, resident, Davis County2:03:54

    So, I am a Girl Scout troop leader from South, uh, Davis County. Um, girl Scout troop 4 98 and Girl Scout troops. 1, 2, 4, 0. Um, currently we're in California, though. I was gonna say it doesn't look like Davis County, but Yeah. No, it's not. Anyway, so these are my, these are some of our girl scouts that we have in South Davis County. And so they just wanted to say a minute about why it's important for them to have cash when they're doing business.

46. Adelaide, Girl Scout, Davis County2:04:26

    Okay. Hi, my name is Adelaide. I'm from 2 4 98. And, um, something I wanted to say about cash is that most of our money from door to door cookie selling comes from like that cash. And it's very important for us because our, with the little app that we have, we normally do that for cookie boots and it's very finicky sometimes. Um, it's a lot easier as well for us to have cash. And we've, it's something I'm used to, so it's easier as well.

47. Rose, Girl Scout, Davis County2:05:05

    Okay. Um, I, um, I'm also something that makes it easier with, um, using cash is that the Girl Scouts can take care of it easier than, um, credit card and it helps the girls with learning money management skills.

48. Brooklyn, Girl Scout, Davis County2:05:26

    Yeah. Hello, my name is Brooklyn. I'm trying, girl. Got 2 1 2, 4, 0. Um, how I would use during is, um, it would be a lot here and, um, most of the time, uh, to like use it or not for, uh, for cookie cells, uh, cookie cells. And it helps you reach your goal faster. And so usually people just say, what do you do? And then we usually say, cash check or Venmo. And they usually do cash cash, so it's a lot easier. So, yeah. So, yeah. So our Girl Scouts use cash all the time when they're doing cookie boost sales and when they're doing door to door sales, sales shop, cash

49. Committee chair (presiding)2:06:30

    On your board. Thank you, Jennifer. We, we, we gave you extra time. 'cause they're super cute. So, all right. We're okay.

50. Committee chair (presiding)2:06:38

    We're, we're gonna go to Kristen. It looks like you, you have your camera going. Go ahead, Kristen.

51. Committee chair (presiding)2:06:41

    Thank you. I'm sorry. Can you hear me now? Yes, Please. Let us, uh, introduce yourself. Let us know your location.

52. Kristin Richey, Utah Eagle Forum2:06:47

    Okay. My name's Kristen Richie, and I'm speaking today in behalf of Eagle Forum. I want to support this bill, and I thank the sponsor for bringing forth this important issue. We must preserve the use of cash in our society for a number of reasons. First, privacy. Many consumers don't want to be tracked in their purchase history. They prefer being anonymous. Also, concerns about banking, consolidation of power as has been discussed. It's truly a matter of freedom using cash lessens the risk of one's financial information being compromised during data breaches or a cyber attack. There's the issue of safety. Cash doesn't require electricity and is viable in times of emergency, like disasters, power outages, or it failures. There's the fact that cash is a tangible tool, many of us, how many of us learn to budget by seeing ourselves remove physical bills and coins from our wallet, making us more mindful of spending habits and not just the invisible nature of credit. Also, it's helpful to small businesses. The fees charged by credit card companies to small businesses are currently between 1.5 and three per 3.5% per transaction. In processing fees, certainly would be helpful not to have that. For reasons of privacy, safety, tangibility, and more cash must remain a viable legal tender option across our state. Please support Bill. Thank you.

53. Committee chair (presiding)2:08:18

    All right, thank you. All right. That we're gonna close public comment. We're gonna take it to, uh, to the committee for further action. Um, Representative Peterson,

54. Rep. Peterson (identity unclear)2:08:35speaker not certain

    Thank you. I'd make a motion to move on to the next agenda item.

55. Committee chair (presiding)2:08:39

    Senator Vickers. Nora, would you like to speak to that?

56. Unknown speaker2:08:42speaker not certain

    Uh, yeah. I, I like what, I like the idea of being able to protect our cash. That's something that I think our cash market needs to be protected, but I don't think the way to do it is mandating how, uh, businesses can do business. Okay. Thank you.

57. Committee chair (presiding)2:08:59

    Uh, to the sponsor, is that,

58. Rep. Kristen Chevrier2:09:05speaker not certain

    Well, obviously I don't like that motion.

59. Committee chair (presiding)2:09:08

    Okay. Got it. Got it. And to the committee and back to the sponsor For summation? Uh, Yeah, just speak to the motion.

60. Rep. Kristen Chevrier2:09:21

    Well, I, I reject the motion. I, I think that we should at least have a vote on moving the bill forward somehow.

61. Committee chair (presiding)2:09:30

    Got it. And then to, uh, make her the motion. I'll wait. Okay. Motion is that we move to the next item on the agenda. Uh, all all in favor say aye. Aye. Aye. Those against. I pass unanimously. Thank you, representative.

62. Unknown speaker2:09:47speaker not certain

    Okay. So just clarify for me, if you held it, I could bring it back, but now I can't. It it's still in the committee. Okay. It's the same. It's the same thing. Okay. Yeah. Thank you. Okay.

63. Committee chair (presiding)2:09:59

    We'll go to, uh, we Is, uh, is representative, Is Representative Grisha here. Okay. Alright. We're gonna, we're, we're gonna representative Dun again. Yeah. Uh, we're gonna do, uh, we're, we're moving