Bills / H.B. 399 / Transcript

H.B. 399 Prohibition Against Student Character Tracking and Grading Systems: transcript

Everything said about this bill in committee and on the floor, speaker by speaker. Each time links to that moment in the official video. Back to the bill: summary and every vote →

Transcribed from the Legislature's recordings by software, with speakers identified from the video; it can contain errors. Check the recording before quoting anyone.

House Education Committee, Feb 12, 2026

Committee chair2:24:13
Uh, next on our agenda is House Bill 3 99. First substitute prohibition against student character tracking and grading systems. Representative Lee, welcome. Thank you for joining us today.
Rep. Trevor Lee2:24:25
Thank you, chair. Can I have a handout For you guys? Yeah, if you'll please I get that to our policy analyst. Okay. Uh, Thank you, uh, committee. Thank you Mr. Chair. Uh, today what I'm going to be presenting on, I've, you're each gonna have a handout in front of you that we can go through some of the specific lines of this bill that there's been a lot of questions on that I believe can help answer those concerns and questions that you've either probably heard via email or maybe you've had some concern yourself as you've read through the bill. So, what hb HB 8 39 does and why do we need it is many people, including parents, may not be aware that the education system is implementing character education programs that track and measure kids' attitudes, beliefs, and values, identities and feelings. If you look at page two through four of your materials, you'll see some of those very subjective areas that children in Utah schools can be scored and graded on. Is your child an empathetic communicator? Does your child have integrity? Is your child's social justice minded? You and I wouldn't want these things measured in us and we'd be considered deeply biased and fair if they were integrity according to who, whose definition of empathy am I being held to? If we wouldn't want it done to us as adults, we shouldn't be doing it to the kids. My bill, HB 3 99. The protect against student character tracking and grading makes a promise to respect the proper roles of parents in schools by doing the following. One, protect students from having their subjective, social emotional attitudes, beliefs, and values measured, tracked, or graded by the education system. And that's written in Section three, lines 4 0 8 to four 17. Part two, respect parents' rights not to have state defined systems of subjective beliefs imposed on their kids through the education system. That's lines 4 0 3 through 4 0 5. Number three rejects the premise that the education system has the right to create personality, passports on children that can follow them into adulthood and be used to discriminate against them if they don't have the correct traits. That's lines 3 99 to 4 0 2 and lines four 16 to four 17. Number four redirects the education system to focus on learning that's objectively measurable math, english, science, and so on. Basically the biggest points of the bill. Number five, this corrects the education system when it oversteps its boundaries and tries to collect or distribute invasive data on children about their personal, social, emotional attitudes and beliefs. That's lines 4 38 to 4 99. Number six effects, effects a shift from collective control to individual freedom so kids can exchange, can change and grow according to their faith, their conscious, and their family's values. This is a huge motivator for the bill. And the last part, HB 3 99 was drafted in consultation with the US Department of Civil Rights, which recommended many of the enforcement provisions and which have also vested interest in protecting personal rights of religious belief and conscious. I believe HB 3 99 does exactly that. And so I have with me here, uh, Lisa Bruns. She is going to, uh, be speaking, uh, with me on this presentation and talks about some of her expertise in this field around the country, uh, as she has done that. Um, after Lisa, I'll have, uh, three other experts who will be speaking on this bill. Alex Newman, uh, Kelly, uh, Koski, Tiffany Boyd. And then Priscilla West will be the fourth and final person. Uh, and so with that, I'll turn the time over to Lisa. Please introduce yourself. Tell us who you represent, if any, and, uh, to Representative Lee, I'll just invite you, uh, guest presenters to, uh, keep their remarks brief. We do have, still have a number of agenda items today.
Lisa Bruns, independent researcher2:28:28
Good afternoon. I'm grateful to Representative Lee and the legislature for this remarkable opportunity to take unique action to protect our students from social emotional tracking systems. I'm Lisa Bruns. As Representative Lee said, I am an independent researcher and investigative journalist who has covered this topic extensively. I've been interviewed by the Washington Post, been flown all over the country to give talks about this subject to various organizations, including two prominent think tanks in DC and was invited by a pro-family group of countries at the United Nations to speak at their conference on the status of women, about the dangers of social emotional tracking systems and how they pose a threat not only to the rights of parents and their ability to pass down their familial cultural and religious beliefs to their own children, but also as a tool that could be used for social engineering of humans as tech and specifically AI play larger and larger roles in our education system. I have three key points as to why House Bill 3 99 is necessary. First, Utah schools were already tracking and labeling students' subjective character traits. Uh, you all should have the packet that was just handed out to you. Um, that has many examples of this. But two of the most blatant examples in there are panorama education on page four that has the dashboard with the red, yellow, and green kind of measuring stick. And you'll see there that they give literal numerical scores and percentages, uh, to children's subjective character traits. The other is, um, the master transcript that starts on page six. And that tracks and measure skills like compassionate integrity. Well, conceptually it might sound like a good idea to cultivate these types of traits in students in practice is where it falls apart with academic assessments like those from math, reading, and science. There are clear objective measurable benchmarks, um, that indicate, uh, you know, how, uh, sorry, that indicate whether a student has achieved the level of competence that's required at their grade level. Um, when very subjective skills like compassion, integrity, empathy, and others are being measured and tracked, you have to ask yourself A, who's setting the definition of these words and, and what's required of them to, to meet them. B, who gets to decide how much compassion, integrity, empathy is required to get into the green or, um, achieve competence? And c, what are the measurement of these subjective skills actually being used for? Is this being used to set up some sort of personality passport that gets attached to a student's permanent record? Um, this could potentially lead to discrimination and limited access to future work and education opportunities if they don't demonstrate someone else's bias, definition, or interpretation of the word empathy. I bet if I asked each of you to demonstrate what your interpretation of empathy is, you all would have very, very different answers based upon your background and your worldview. Um, and herein lies the problem. Second, since Utah has put this social emotional tracking system into place, this academic and mental health gains that were promised are nowhere to be found in your packets. On page eight, you'll see charts that demonstrate how Utah's academic test scores have flatlined and our statewide test scores have dipped, especially in the two vital core subjects of math and reading. Pages nine and 10 show that even though year after year, year after year, Utah spends tens of millions more, um, on social emotional tracking systems than ever before. Student mental health issues have only progressively gotten worse. Not better. Our state has structured and monitored SEL long enough now to know for certain that it is objectively not working and could actually be working against children. Third, HB 3 99 delivers on the promise of protecting students' rights and freedoms guaranteed under the constitution the freedom of belief freedom from discrimination based upon that belief and the right to privacy, which we all hold dear. It protects parents from having schools deciding their children's values or establishing systems of belief for their children. A right that was recently upheld a the US Supreme Court case of Hammad versus Taylor. This is nonpartisan as all families, regardless of their political affiliation or religious stance, should have the premier right to raise their children with the values they would like to hand down to them without those values being challenged or altered at school. HB 3 99 protects respects and corrects the proper boundaries between the state's education system and the student. Let schools be the judge of a child's education. You know, like two plus two equals four, and let God be the judge of a child's character. Thank you.
Rep. Trevor Lee2:33:24
Thank you Lisa. Uh, Mr. Chair, I have, uh, Tiffany Boyd. Tiffany, uh, is Tiffany on Loa Online? Yes. All right.
Committee chair2:33:35
Thank you Tiffany. Uh, if you'll please state your name, who you represent, make sure your camera is on, make sure that your microphone is on. Um, just in the interest of our committee's time, we do, we do have additional business. I'm gonna set the timer for two minutes. Perfect. Please go ahead, Tiffany.
Tiffany Boyd, Tennessee resident2:34:01
My name is Tiffany Boyd and I reside in Tennessee. I have a BS degree in education in addition to 30 plus years of experience in the education field. Thank you for the opportunity to give testimony and support of HB 3 99. There has been a shift in education away from academics to psychological education. Castle has been integral in embedding social emotional learning in schools across the us. This is a direct attempt to usurp parental rights and responsibilities. This replacement parenting and addition to usurping parental autonomy seeks to change the thoughts, beliefs, attitudes, and behaviors of our nation's children. The teaching of beliefs and values belongs in the home and is the right of the parents. The implementation of SEL is being driven by personalized competency based education. The vast amounts of data harvested on students can then be used to create character competency. Digital passports, which hold records of soft skills, which include attitudes and social emotional characteristics. These passports via interoperable databases and technology can contin, can potentially follow a student indefinitely. What would this mean for students outside of the government school system whose parents have chosen freedom and education? This could prove disastrous for their future if they lack these competency passports. They could be denied opportunities. The lack of a passport could impede college, a admissions and future jobs. State Tracking conformity and control systems while using children as vehicles for profit is a violation of our inalienable rights. With this bill, Utah has a unique opportunity to set a precedent for upholding true conservative beliefs and protecting inalienable rights. By voting in favor of HB 3 99. I have provided additional information in my letter included in the packet you have been provided. Thank you for your time and consideration.
Committee chair2:35:58
Thank you, Tiffany. Thank You. Uh, we now have, uh, Alex Newman. Alex, uh, same guidelines. Make sure you turn your microphone on, turn your camera on, tell us who you represent, state your full name, and, uh, we'll give you two minutes. Uh, you need to raise your hand if you haven't already. Alex, we're not seeing Alex's hand raised there. Okay, let's go Ahead. Let's go to, um, let's go to Kelly. Kelly. Uh, I think you heard my previous instructions. Go ahead. Make sure your hands raised we'll acknowledge you. Go ahead, Kelly.
Kelly Chenowski, independent researcher2:36:50
Good afternoon, committee. My name is Kelly Chenowski. I am a mom and independent researcher that has spent a significant amount of time researching social and emotional learning. Despite the well-crafted marketing of so-called social emotional learning, SEL, we are now able to observe the alarming realities of SEL programming and note the market forecast of the SEL industry into the billions of dollars. With a market in the billions, it's no surprise that industry players still fail to right this wrong. Students enter the school day to learn reading, writing, and arithmetic, but not too fast. As SEL now inserts a new value system into the minds and lives of, of children, separating children from their familiar value systems they receive at home, using education as a tool to disrupt the familial values, beliefs, and psyche of a child while inserting ideological training yields unrest. Intrusive data collection, paired with untrained school staff acting as licensed therapists, children are taught to ruminate on emotions, oppression, social justice, gender, ideology, and more. This destabilizes a child, which thereby challenges their ability to become and be a peacemaker. Referring to the charts in your packets on pages nine and 10, we see the lack of evidential support of SELs claims to aid or support students. Quite the contrary. What we see is a rise in mental health diagnoses that includes depression. When a government in a free nation adopts programming that aims to transform a child's value system, we are right to be alarmed to children feel the burden of pressure to conform to the trainings of adults in their schools. These programs are expansively tracking the minds and character of children into intrusive data, pitting children into a decision to trust their school's programming or the family they love will continue to cause the child's mental health to falter. I urge you to support HB 3 9 9 today. We must ask if we are willing to right this wrong, what do we value most? The value of a market, industry, or the precious value of a child? Thank you.
Committee chair2:38:56
Thank you, Kelly. Back to you, Representative Lee. Thank you. Uh, we'll go to Priscilla West. Is this your final presenter? Yes. If Alex is not online. Okay. Priscilla, uh, same guidelines. Uh, please make sure you turn your microphone on, your camera on, tell us who you represent. You'll have two minutes. She coming? Just, just one moment. She's coming up here. There she's, yes. Go ahead Priscilla. You're muted. Priscilla, sorry. Go ahead. Un you need to unmute.
Priscilla West, education researcher2:39:49
Okay. There we have, my name is Pri. Please start pri please start. Please begin again. My name is Priscilla West and the parent of two high school students, a former school board member, author and education researcher. I support House Bill 3 99 because it restores clarity to the mission of public education. Over the past three decades, SEL programs have expanded the, the scope of public education beyond academic instruction. Increasingly, districts are asked to measure not just what students know, but who they are, their attitudes, beliefs, and personal dispositions. However, well-intentioned these efforts may be they blur important boundaries. Teachers are trained to teach reading, math and history. They are not trained to evaluate students' psychological traits or internal worldviews. Nor should digital platforms assess and permanently record students subjective traits. When we institutionalize the measurement and tracking of internal dispositions, we introduce bias, even unintentionally pressuring students to conform rather than to think independently. We also introduce risk. This personal information is stored in data systems that the parents can neither see nor control. When public education works best when it focuses on a shared civic foundations of knowledge, skill, and respectful conduct. That focus protects students from every background and every belief system. This bill does not prevent schools from teaching kindness or responsibility. It simply ensures that students are not graded or digitally profiled based on subjective character metrics. That is a reasonable boundary and a necessary one. I respectfully urge you all to consider carefully the materials in the packets you were given and to support House Bill 3 99. And I thank you for your time.
Committee chair2:41:53
Alright, thank you very much. Representative Lee? Yes. Does it show Alex Newman online there? We don't see Alex online. Okay.
Rep. Trevor Lee2:42:07
Alright then, uh, with that, uh, we will go ahead and conclude our presentation and, uh, go from there. Alright. Thank you. Uh, back to, we're gonna go to our, uh, committee members for clarifying questions.
Committee chair2:42:21
Thank you for your presentation. Thank you for your, uh, co-presenters. We appreciate you being here. Um, I have, I have a couple of questions for members of our committee. We'll, uh, we'll start with Representative Moss.
Rep. Sandra Hollins2:42:35speaker not certain
Yes. Um, Generally in committee media is only allowed to be in a very small section and they're pretty spread out behind the desks of a lot of our members over there. So I'm just wondering if we could direct them to stay past that window.
Committee chair2:42:51speaker not certain
Yes, thank you. I just, just, uh, spoken with one of our green coats and they were making that instruction. But thank you very much, representative Libe. Thank you. I appreciate that. Alright, uh, Representative Moss.
Rep. Carol S. Moss2:43:02
Okay. Deep breath. Um, what are these passports? I've never heard of such a thing. I'm pretty connected in my district to the schools. I visit them all. I I taught five or 6,000 students over three decades. My daughter teaches at a high school, has for many years I've never heard of passports to anything in regard to education.
Rep. Trevor Lee2:43:28
And, and perhaps, uh, Representative Moss are not specifically labeled as passports, but we do know that everything about the student in their academics goes into something called the data backpack. Right? So all of the test scores, um, where they're at in their competencies, it goes in a dead data backpack that follows them from preschool to age 20. Um, that is actually a part of our Utah education system. So, along with that, with these surveys and these, these subjective assessments that they're doing with these social emotional skills, that is also going into that data backpack and following them. And so that's what we mean by data. Um, sorry, personality passports. Oh, I'll have to check on that.
Rep. Carol S. Moss2:44:08
'cause my district, may I ask a follow up please? Um, sorry, go ahead, Representative Moss.
Rep. Carol S. Moss2:44:13
Okay, I'll preface my question with this. When I was teaching kids got two grades, a citizenship grade and an academic grade citizenship had to do with, um, turning in your assignments, attending regularly. I don't remember the other things, but do you know, as many parents had come to conference and wanna know how their kids' citizenship grade was as much as their academic. Now you, some of these emails I've gotten that I've responded to and they quiz me, how do you separate teaching respect and not bullying kids or character, character, uh, development and being honest, not cheating, all these basic things. How do you, you're talking about these very things and separating them. They're not separate. They're part of teaching whether it's first grade or it's 12th grade. I, I almost kicked out some boys outta my class one one time because they were mocking another student behind his back. And I said, I treat all of you with respect and if you don't treat one another that way, you're not gonna be in this class. Those are basic inherent things of teaching, whether it's math or science or English or whatever. And I don't see this separation as being something, um, Something dark and frightening and following kids. They're graduating from high school, they're going to good colleges. I, I don't see where the problem is. It, it, it sounds like something you've invented, honestly.
Rep. Trevor Lee2:45:50
Well, um, nothing in this bill prevents regular classroom disciplines. So your example of, you know, the boys fighting, I mean, I, I used to be a substitute teacher and had a teaching credential from California myself. So I do know that there are measures to, um, do classroom a written, in fact, um, Representative Welton actually did an amazing, um, bill SB 1 59 in 2024, um, which is public school discipline and sorry, conduct plans, amendments, which is address objectives, student behavior like which you're talking about. And, um, how to deal with that, uh, without measuring, uh, children's subjective, social emotional skills. I think it can be done, uh, without having these skills follow the student from preschool to age 20. I think, you know, this is a year of America's birthday. Um, we are celebrating our founding documents and I think we should as adults who value our privacy, um, who would not wanna be tracked in that same way that we provide those same protections to our youngest citizens, which are our students.
Rep. Carol S. Moss2:47:00
What, just one more. So if I check with Granite School District or any other district, they will be able to, they will tell me that they have these passports that follow kids throughout their, is that what you're saying? Do you know? That
Rep. Trevor Lee2:47:14
Is correct. They may not call them passports, but we are definitely measuring and tracking students' subjective skills and um, if you just look at this packet, there are many, many examples of how this is happening.
Committee chair2:47:24
Thank you. Alright. Thank you. Uh, Representative Moss, we're gonna go to Representative Pucci.
Rep. Candice B. Pierucci2:47:32
Thank you. And thank you to the sponsor. I know you've worked a lot on this. I'm looking at the first sub, so just wanna make sure. Here's my question because you define character education and I know at least in public, at appropriations, we talked about the role and mission of the state board of education and what kind of students we want. And character is one of the things, good character, right? And uh, and so when you say character education, I'm just trying to understand 'cause I feel like this could cut both ways. And, um, so I just come with me here. I'm trying to understand the scope of the bill. So like if I wanna take my kid to a charter school because say, or you know, any different school because maybe they teach, they focus on patriotism and conservatism or those are all characteristic traits. And um, so that's my first question, is that how you would view this? And second would be a lot of time, a lot of the complaints we hear from teachers have to do with behavior issues. And I am, I am with you on parents should be the primary providers and should be the ones driving their child's, um, social emotional experience and learning, right? But say like, a kid has a tantrum in school and the teacher tries to say, let's do breathing techniques, or let's try to do anger management, or one of the behavior techniques. I'm just trying to think if that would fall under here because this is a pretty comprehensive list. So can you walk me through those two different scenarios and how your bill would interact with them? Great.
Rep. Trevor Lee2:49:06
Um, thank you. Representative Perche. Um, you know, I don't think the schools are tracking or measuring how patriotic, really how patriotic kids are according to the social emotional frameworks and models. Um, and, and really what this does and, and what I love about this is it protects still that classroom management. Um, and, and it allows that teacher to, to still implement classroom management techniques, um, but then provides that room. I mean, nothing in the school prevents that teacher from going say, Hey, I know you're having a tantrum. Let's call your parents. Let's get them involved. And just like you were saying, to bring it back to the parents is if if that, and if that school, if that kid is having multiple tantrums per day, this does also not touch kids who have a 5 0 4. So, so that, um, that in itself, um, should be enough. Again, I bring it back to why do we have to measure and track these skills. Um, I think in the moment it classroom behavior techniques are, are perfectly fine.
Rep. Candice B. Pierucci2:50:05
Okay. If I may, Mr. Chair, just to follow up, 'cause I'm looking at your packet, which thanks for preparing these materials. Yeah, go ahead. On here. Uh, it talks about like 1, 2, 3. I'm on the fourth page in, uh, exhibit D. Is this a Utah like screenshot of panorama? Yes. Yes It is. So it looks like it's self-management grit, right? That those are the things that you're saying they're tracking. Mm-hmm. Okay. Alright. I just wanted to verify it was Utah. I, I'm trying to grapple with, I absolutely want academic excellence to be the focus of schools. If my student happens, my child is learning grit though, because they fell on a test and they say you can do it again. Let's, you know, be resilient. I'm okay with that. I'm okay with someone channeling resiliency and grip building. And so I'm just, that's why I'm trying to navigate this because inevitably when you're encountering education, you're gonna encounter some character development as well. So that's why I'm trying to think how would a teacher parse that out in that situation. Uh, my, my question is, would you be okay then obviously with grit, but then do you see on that, uh, dashboard there that they are giving that a physical number, a literal number and score and rank?
Rep. Trevor Lee2:51:23
I think that is the part that we are pushing up against in this bill is this ability to rank and score a children's subjective, very, um, you know, open to interpretation type of skills. Thanks for
Rep. Candice B. Pierucci2:51:35
Clarifying. I appreciate it.
Committee chair2:51:37
Alright, thank you. Uh, representative Pucci, we're gonna go to Representative Hayes.
Rep. Sahara Hayes2:51:43
Thank you, Mr. Your chair. I've got a couple questions if that's okay. Yes. Uh, please note we do have two bills on the agenda following this one, and I suspect there's a few people here to speak to this bill. Of course. Thank you. Hi, thank you for being here today. Um, I, I have some concerns with this bill, but in terms of of clarification and questions, it is in direct conflict with some of, uh, a bill we've already passed this session as well as initiatives that members of this committee are working on. So, for example, we recently passed a bill out of this committee that, um, defined, uh, social health, which included an individual's ability to successfully build, maintain, and improve, um, relationships with others. Um, and it requires the state board to incorporate that into, um, health classes. So I am curious if you have, uh, worked with any of the sponsors on, on how these bills might potentially intersect or if, should they all just get to the end if it's just gonna be fisticuffs, like what does this look like?
Rep. Trevor Lee2:52:40
Yeah, yeah. So, uh, really good question. Thank you. Representative Hayes, uh, spoken with both bill sponsors. Uh, when I ran this bill, I had no clue they were running their bills and what they're doing. So they just happened to go first before this one. Um, yes, they would be in direct conflict with this bill that we are running here today. So how that works out, I mean, that just depends on what we as a body decide we'd wanna do and what we'd wanna put forth.
Rep. Sahara Hayes2:53:04
Okay, thank you. Um, and my other question, it Rick's kind of workforce development because we're seeing more and more, uh, soft skills being valued, like the ability to communicate well, to work together with teamwork and to have emotional intelligence that you can bring to the table. We're seeing that come up again and again, um, and why people are going through interview after interviews so that they can find people who not just, you know, can, can are proficient in Excel, but can work well in a team. And frankly, a a lot of the work that we've done as a legislature made sure that people coming out of high school are ready for the job force. So, um, how do you see people and children, um, building these school skills, knowing that so much of their day is spent in school, not everybody is coming home, um, to a parent who is available in the evenings. How are you seeing them building these skills which are very necessary for our current day's workforce if we're getting rid of, of teaching about things like emotional intelligence and communicating with others in teamwork?
Rep. Trevor Lee2:54:04
Yeah, no, another good question. Representative Hayes, I believe that if academic excellence is doing the job that it's supposed to, it's gonna take care of those issues. When I was in school, I couldn't turn papers in late. My daughter in school has so many opportunities to be late and late and late and late with her assignments and they give her a pass over and over again. She's not learning the skill that I did when I was in school, that there is accountability to either, if you fail a test, you fail a test, you can't just keep retaking it. If you turn an assignment in late, oh, you can do it again and again and again. It's, it's a different world we're living in because we are giving those soft skills that we used to have in schools are no longer there anymore. We have, we have given that a pass. In fact, even today I was speaking with some kids at my daughter's school who are proposing and trying to push more children to take AP classes. It's everyone's doing the CE side because they're easier. It's not because they're, it, it's not that AP classes don't exist. It's that they want the easy path. They're not doing hard things anymore. That's what's not preparing our children for the workforce. And we're trying to compensate with that, with such things like social emotional learning and it's not working, it's getting worse. And so I would argue that if we went back to the way we used to do things with academic excellence and holding kids accountable to what they were learning in school, you would solve the majority of those problems
Rep. Sahara Hayes2:55:17
that we're having over and over again now. Wonderful. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Committee chair2:55:21
Thank you. Go. We'll go to Representative Thompson.
Rep. Jason E. Thompson2:55:25
Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, I'd like to make a motion to hold
Committee chair2:55:30
We're we're not in the action items yet. Not in action. Got, we got a long ways to go representative. Let me, um, Thompson, We're in the, we're in the clarifying question section. Let me, let me maybe move on to, let me maybe move on to a couple of follow up questions.
Rep. Jason E. Thompson2:55:45
Um, when I look at the world that we live in today, um, we look at the world of, of ai, we look at a world of rapid growth. We look a world of declining values. We look at a world where, um, the family in the home is in decay, um, for crying out loud, we don't even have a boys, uh, a boy scout system to send our our boys to anymore. I think the girl scouts are still still there. But for centuries and centuries, and I promise this is a question for centuries and centuries, our, our institutions, whether they're, um, and I do believe the family first and foremost is where character is forged and taught. But I believe that these other institutions reinforce character and help develop character, um, throughout our lives. I look at, um, teachers and guidance counselors that I had, I look at church leaders that I've had. Um, my question is how do I go back to my educators and um, and say, Hey, we we need to teach these durable skills more. We need to teach leadership more. We need to teach these kids to, to, to believe in themselves and to be able to be prepared for the world. They're getting ready to enter. How do I give them, um, that confidence, um, with, with such sweeping legislation that, for example, where I hear passport, and I'll be honest, that word is completely foreign to me. And I have been in schools left and right over the past year, and I understand that. Um, and I'm gonna get a point
Committee chair2:57:27
of order quote, I'm here in a second. You are Actually. Um,
Rep. Jason E. Thompson2:57:29
So, so if could, could you, could you talk to that for me for a sec? How do I go back to my teachers and say, Hey, we're not annihilating your ability to, um, uh, help teach and correct kids that are in the classroom. Um, how do I, how do I go back and do that with, with confidence if we, if, if, if we pass this bill, Um, I think it's clear from the data that sel harder isn't fixing the problem. And so I think we need to think outside of the box of that we've been in. And again, I think that this bill still holds in place all the other things. We're not saying teachers, you can't teach your students to push in your chair and you know, don't, you know, respect other people's learning environment, all that kind of stuff. What we're saying here is it's immoral to track and measure these skills that are subjective and that creates a literal record of children's emotional skills. I think that's what we're saying here. And so I think we gotta do the right thing, is what we gotta go back and tell our, our teachers and our administrators that this system is broken. It doesn't work. And, and I think we need to return back to stuff like Trevor was saying, which was academics. So could I have one more question, Mr. Chair? One more question. We do have multiple lights and we get public Comment. So, um, and, and I'm, listen, I'm coming at this from a very conservative angle, from a very, I Loa you know, I love, I got six kids in public education. Um, you, you, you know, if there's tracking to the degree of what you're talking about, that would be a concern. But SEL ing more, what can you define s eing more for me? Um, that's question number one. And question number two, um, um, where, where is the line, where, where is the line of, oh, I can talk about this. Um, and, and it's a character development trait, but up I crossed the line here, so I've gone too, too far. Where, where is that line? I'm Juab. I I would just like to understand,
Rep. Trevor Lee2:59:40
Um, well, to address your first question, um, representative, I'm sorry I don't see your name Tag up there. It's Thompson, Sorry, uh, Representative Thompson. Um, so we've had 10 years of SDL in Utah schools. Um, I think it, there was oh yes, right here, funding for mental health screenings, crisis intervention and other efforts have increased 60 million over the last three years. I'm everyone to think about that number 60 million. Um, I think the line is, and I think we've made it clear in, in our presentation and in the, the, the bill itself that anything that requires the tracking and measuring of these subjective skills crosses the line. And I think that's a pretty bright line.
Committee chair3:00:26
Thank you. You okay if we move on? I'm okay. Alright. Very Good. Representative MacPherson.
Rep. Matt MacPherson3:00:32
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, as I've read, read this bill a few times. I do have, I think, uh, a question that I don't, I don't know, maybe I'm missing something because there seems to be a lot of conversation here around character education and I don't see anything in this bill that prevents teaching character to students. What I see is that grading, tracking and monitoring, that is what is being prevented. I'm, I'm looking, so I'm just hoping you can help me understand. There seems to be a definition of what character education means in this section and that we're not to track score and grade that, but I'm, I'm not seeing anywhere that says you can't teach character in schools. Can you help me understand the difference there? Because that's what this whole conversation seems to be about that.
Rep. Trevor Lee3:01:19speaker not certain
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, any system that does that is, is not allowed. It's, it's not to be implemented. And I think that it's pretty clear if you read those line items, um, again, I think character has been expanded too far beyond what it used to be. Again, turn in your homework on time, be respectful of your classmates. Um, but I, what's happened here and, and what I've exposed over years of talking about this across the nation is that it's ballooned into, we're asking kids about their feelings every day. Kids are living in their feelings every moment of the day. How are you feeling? It balloons into things like circle times where, um, in order to teach character and teach belonging, kids are sharing very sensitive information in these circle times with their peers. And there was actually, um, just to give you an example, there was a fourth grade student, um, who was having circle time and she observed next to her, in the group, next to her, they were talking about the teacher gave a very simple prompt like, what makes you sad? And, you know, some kids share it, oh, my, my dog died, my grandma died, whatever. This one kid opens up and says, you know, um, my parents are divorcing and now my mom's drinking and seeing other people. And it turned into this vulnerability spiral where more and more kids were sharing deeper and deeper harms and traumas. And by the end of this session, all the children were crying. And guess what? These promises of putting SCL in schools where we're gonna have greater academics, they were so upended that they couldn't even learn at that point. And so this is what character education has devolved into. And I think we need to have some very strict lines of what parents are responsible for in children's character education and what schools are responsible for.
Rep. Matt MacPherson3:03:06
Thank you. And, and to, to really clarify though that when I'm reading this bill, when I'm reading the, the, the lines here, this says specifically that the administration personnel and instruction personnel, nel may not categorize grade, implement, measure, monitor, or track characterized education. But I don't see anything here that's saying that they're not allowed to just teach them good character skills. And I, and, and that's where I, I seem, it seemed to feel like that most of the questions outta this committee is geared towards, well, if this bill were to pass, we can't teach good character to students any longer. This seems to say that, well, no, you can, we just don't want to create a database where we're collecting this data and following these around for students forever, forever. It can No,
Rep. Trevor Lee3:03:53
That that's correct. And to go along with what Lisa was saying is if the, the point with, with tracking and measuring is that's why these little therapy sessions happen, is they try to track and get that information and then it can move on to something else that then is becoming the important part of their education, not the academic excellence. And so we wanna stop the grading. We believe it will prevent and stop a lot of the push for the SEL in the schools and get back to what they're supposed to do. If they're not worried about trying to hit either metrics on that side or feel like it's every child's a number and they need to, they need to dig and find out what their problems are. And if they're not doing the tracking and, and trying to monitor that, then hopefully they're focused on the education side. Thank
Committee chair3:04:33
You. All right. Thank you. We still have multiple lights members, uh, to you, Representative Welton.
Rep. Doug Welton3:04:38
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, I've got a, maybe a few questions and a clarification. Um, first of all, lemme just say this, I, I believe that there is a surgical approach that might be needed here. Like I, I, I, I've seen this, I think there might be a, a place for, for some fixes here that are addressing some of your concerns here. Um, clarification first and then to my questions and I'll share my concerns. Um, clarification first, Panorama. Uh, there's no teacher educator putting in scores. Those are student, uh, surveys that they do. Parents can opt them out. And so you have a student that actually puts that score in. And so if there's a score from Panorama, it's not the school or a teacher that is assessing that, that is purely the student's self-reflection. So I just wanna clarify that. And also that that is not on SIS, that is not something that I can see as a teacher. That's not something that I can see anywhere. Um, other than sometimes they'll, they'll give us like the aggregated data that they, they give back to us, but it doesn't follow the student. So here's my questions. Um, my question is like, you've got a whole bunch of things listed here. Um, interpersonal and interpersonal skills mindsets, which we talked about. Growth, mindset and grit. Durable skills, lifelong skills, interventions, non non-academic skills. Non-academic skills would be turning work in on time. Uh, social skills, soft skills. So I, I don't know if you can speak to some of these 'cause there's a lot of them in there. Um, let me just share you my concerns and maybe you can speak to these. So if I'm taking a business course and part of business is being able to work with other students, that is something that we look at and we measure when you're doing group projects and things like that. So now I'm actually kind of tracking it as part of their grade. Is that something that you're trying to say is not allowed? So we can't say that. Alright. Do you work well in your group? Okay. Follow up on the next one. Soft skills. So if you're teaching a public speaking class or if you're teaching a, again, business classes or things like that, I mean, Warren Buffet went out and said soft skills are probably the most important thing we should be teaching. Is the difference between making 50% more earnings in your life is your ability to have soft skills. So is your, do you see this as now like a, a a a speech teacher, public speaking class is actually measuring soft skills like that is what they measure. Is that what you intend to take up in this?
Rep. Trevor Lee3:07:09
No, that's part of that class like curriculum. It's what they're supposed to be doing within that class specifically. Okay. So there is some measurement allowed in a curriculum.
Rep. Doug Welton3:07:19
Correct. Okay. Thank you.
Committee chair3:07:22
Alright, thank you. I still have a couple of additional lights. We're gonna go to Representative Eliason.
Rep. Steve Eliason3:07:28
Thank you Mr. Chair. Just, uh, I've, I've actually got a lot of questions, but the sake of time, I'm just gonna address it to maybe one or two, um, couple. Thank you. Legal issues. Yeah, you're welcome. A couple legal issues. Number one, we're, we're involving the state auditor. Typically the state auditor by constitution is financial audits, right? I mean, we can relegate other things to the state auditor. Is this 'cause we're gonna be expanding the role of the auditor here. And my question is, is, is that number one, we want to be doing that in this space. And, and then number two is then under six C reporting this to the Department of Justice. Do we wanna be getting the Department of Justice into the business of business of, uh, of Utah?
Rep. Trevor Lee3:08:14
Go Ahead. Um, as far as your auditor question, uh, representative Ellison, is that how you pronounce it? Yeah, it's okay. Um, the fiscal note on this is very, very small. Um, we we're involving the auditor 'cause the, there is a, a right to action, um, against LEAs if, if there is a violation. And the auditor has very stringent process of how they evaluate these reports. Um, and these, you know, accusations to make sure that the lea a literally is in violation and gives them a right. A way to get out of that violation. And so there's a reason why we've involved the auditor's office here and it's actually, you know, it's very little involvement at the end of the day.
Rep. Steve Eliason3:08:58
Okay. So I guess, I guess my question is, um, we're we're asking the auditor to audit these LEAs Correct. To audit the complaints that would come if a parent said, Hey, um, my student's data is being collected or tracked. Um, and then they go through the process of evaluating that complaint? Yes. So I, I guess that's my question is because our auditor is not tasked with that at this point. So this, this is an expansion of, of adding more to our auditor that's we have never done before. 'cause like I say, typically auditors are financial audits, not this type of work. So just, just making that point. And then number two, referring, uh, referencing, uh, referring, uh, issues of non-compliance to the Department of Justice. Can you speak to that,
Rep. Trevor Lee3:09:44
Trevor? Okay. Um, so if, you know, with the private right of action, this is something that they take very seriously at, at least at the federal level. And there are protections that we have in the Constitution, at least with parental rights. And we feel like if something is being eroded there, that is the best place to send that issue to. And, and we should have those protections for parents that way.
Rep. Steve Eliason3:10:13
I'll, I'll hold the rest of my questions, Mr. Chair.
Committee chair3:10:17
Thank you. Um, I see one additional light representative Libe.
Rep. Karianne Lisonbee3:10:23
Thank you Mr. Chair. Okay. So I'm gonna focus my questions on the private right of action. This is interesting. Um, so you refer throughout the bill to 50 3G ten two oh four, which is the private right of action section. Correct. And in the private right of action section, you attempt to define, uh, what character education means. And there are references to that throughout the bill saying character education as defined here is prohibited. And then you define it here, lines three 70 through 3 85, is that correct? Correct. Okay. So having worked prior to this on a bill, um, in a similar vein where we were trying to define a moving target, um, with all respect to everybody involved, it is extremely hard to define a moving target and it is still a moving target. And I worry that the broadness of the description, for instance, using words like includes an array of interpersonal and interpersonal competencies or skills organized into cognitive emotional, metacognitive, psychosocial, social or spiritual domains to shape attitudes, beliefs, language or mindsets, or to develop character dispositions, identity or values. Um, I would say develop developmentally to try to. So there's a few concerns I have. I, I like the goal. I think the goal is good to draw a line. What I'm concerned about is that we are not, the line here is not the right line. Um, the, the line that really gets at what we're trying to carve out and say this is not appropriate. Um, so for instance, the refocus on academic focus, I agree, school should be all about academic focus in general. I homeschooled my kids K through 12, all six of them. So I didn't send my kids to public school. But, um, I also recognize having master's level classes in education theory and pedagogy, that early academic focus is actually detrimental to younger children. So developmentally, as we're looking at this language broadly over K through 12, I think it plays differently in different grades. Um, am I gonna have a point of order called on me Very soon. Okay. Um, so I just, I I'm really trying to digest this language tied to a private right of action that would then require funds to be withheld. Um, I, I don't have a problem with withholding funds from a school who isn't in compliance. I think that's good policy. I've tried to implement it in other places in code where, you know, data isn't flowing from a district to the USBE, where data would be very helpful for us to make better policy decisions where we know there are issues, but we just don't have the data. Right. That's, it's really important that we have some teeth as we're talking about it, bill, but I'm, I guess I'm just expressing that the line might not be perfect to really get at what we're trying to do and I'll wait until after public comment to continue to talk, but just wanted to, to kind of flesh that out and make sure I was reading it right. Thank you.
Committee chair3:14:27
Alright, thank you Representative Libe. Uh, that concludes our clarifying questions. Um, sorry, representative, I apologize. Representative Peck is online Representative Peck, if you'll please, uh, uh, yeah, thank you. Go ahead and ask your clarifying questions.
Rep. Nicholeen P. Peck3:14:42
Yeah, thank you. I'll try to be fast. I know this is going long and I'm sensitive to that. Um, but I, I just wanted to say and to ask, I wanna say something and ask a question. First off, I love the intent of this bill. I think it's been known for a very long time in, in a lot of circles that we've kind of missed the mark when it comes to some of our social training. We were for a long time saying, you know, school, what about the social, what about the social? And then we just dove off this cliff and, um, like emotional intelligence is being propagated in a way that it was never meant to be by Dr. Daniel Goldman, who actually came up with the idea. So we came up with this concept years ago of character education, which I think everyone felt was very positive and related to civics. And the term has been co-opted is what you're saying. And what I'm wondering is, is if you would have any openness to maintaining some of those beautiful elements of character education by maybe changing some language somewhere else in the code where we could call it leadership education or leadership character development or something. But we, we give it a new name since that character education has been co-opted so that we can define it and actually teach some of these good things to our children. But then again, of course, not grade them. Is that something that you would be open to, uh, for this bill? Yeah. Okay. Because I'd like to see maybe a, a little more discussion along that line. I would absolutely love to support this bill. And, and I'm just feeling like there might be a couple of pieces per, perhaps still missing.
Committee chair3:16:47
Okay. We're gonna move to public comment, uh, just, uh, for some context really quick. The first one is, I would just would like to know how many people, um, so thank you all for lining up, but how many people are here to speak for this bill? If you were to speak for this bill, raise your hand. Okay. If you were to speak against this bill, please raise your hand. Okay. I'm gonna ask, uh, uh, to do the same. Do we, I think we have a number of people online. How many are here? Okay. Um, just in the given, just in the interest of time, our, uh, our committee is scheduled to conclude at 5:00 PM We're not gonna make that. Okay. So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna do, um, I realize there's a lot of people that would like to speak to this. We're not gonna be able to hear all of you. We're gonna do, uh, three, four, we're gonna do three against. We're gonna take, um, two online, four and against. Oh, how many do we have online? Uh, Target we have 15. Well, why don't you check and see. Um, we'll do one, let, and I, I'm sorry, we're gonna do one, four and one against. You'll have one minute. Um, I apologize that, um, everybody's not gonna be able to speak. Um, but uh, that's why I asked you to raise your hand so our committee members could get an indication of where people were at and, and the sense of the, uh, public comment in the room. So with that, um, uh, if, if you are four, please be on my right, your left. If you are against my left, your right, you'll have one minute. We're gonna take three, four each. You'll have, uh, please make sure you introduce yourself, state who you represent, if any, and, uh, make sure you sign in. So, alright, go ahead.
Christy Henshaw, resident3:18:38
Uh, thank you very much. My name is Christy Henshaw. Um, I both have experience with this as a PLC coach and going through two SEL programs using Castle at my school. Before I get to my remarks as, uh, the chair and a resolution that was passed, I wanted to say that we very much found the, that the social emotional learning did lean heavily on the victim's side. If you think of it as the hero's journey, they did ruminate in feelings too much. Um, and they did not teach the things that represented PCI was asking for, which is how to pull yourself up by your bootstraps and how to, um, have, have the grit that that, that they say. I actually was working with my school and our psychologists come up with a different one because we're talking about outside sources of curated curriculum and programs that assign scores. We're not talking about just teaching them the right thing to do. I did wanna also say, uh, that on January 10th the SEC passed a resolution and that was the resolution, defending freedom of speech and the condemning of ranking of speech by purporting dignity and other virtues. And we ask that you protect children by not setting up anything that has the chance of ranking any of their speech, um, whatsoever, and teaching them to be the heroes and to do the right thing and to please vote for this bill.
Committee chair3:19:51
Thank you. Thank you. Alright, you have one minute please, please state your name and who you represent. Sign in please.
Megan Jensen, Davis Behavioral Health (on own behalf)3:20:00
Thank you, Mr. Chair and the committee for your service. My name is Megan Jensen and I'm representing myself. I have a master's degree in clinical psychology and work on the prevention team at Davis Behavioral Health in Davis County. I've been teaching social and emotional learning for three years to fourth and eighth grade students in Davis School District. Every time I walk into a classroom, it is the highlight of my day. I hear students describe how they are managing stress instead of shutting down calming anxiety so they can focus on choosing healthier ways to respond to conflict. These are not abstract ideas, they are real skills changing real lives. The programs I teach do not grade or rank students. Academic excellence does not happen in isolation. Students cannot learn effectively when they are overwhelmed, dysregulated, or disconnected. The data supports this, the students reflect it, it takes a village to raise healthy children. Removing SEL weakens that village. Please do what is best and do not support this bill. Thank you.
Committee chair3:21:05
Alright, thank you. Please go Ahead. Thank you. Um,
Wendy Hart, parent3:21:09
my name is Wendy Hart. I'm from Highland, Utah and I'm a former Alpine School Board member. Um, while I was on the school board, one of my children was in junior high and was, uh, graded on grit, guts integrity, resilience, and tenacity. And I got a text from my student in junior high and it said, I am getting a B in English because I apparently lack in integrity and tenacity. This is not why I sent my child to school. Do not grade our children on these values. And who decides that is the concern. In 1969, Dr. John Good lad said that the most important thing in the 21st century in education will not be what knowledge is of most worth, but what kinds of human beings do we wish to create? I do not want my kids modified and molded into somebody else's vision of who they should be. Thank you.
Committee chair3:22:03
Thank you. Please go Ahead. Thank you, committee.
Susannah Burt, Utah Prevention Advisory Committee3:22:06
My name is Susanna Bur. I'm here representing the Utah Prevention Associ, uh, prevention Advisory Committee, which is a subset of the Utah Behavioral Health Committee and the Policy Review Group Committee. Um, first I would like to point out thank you so much for your time on this. HB 3 99 would likely restrict mental health services including prevention, services, education, and screening from schools. Suicide is the second leading cause of death for Utah children ages 10 to 17 and schools serve as a critical access point for mental health services. For many Utah children, many terms within HB 3 99 are not clearly defined, which could lead to a wide array of interpretations both by school employees and administrators, as well as parents who would then be able to sue districts should their interpretations differ. The bill will restrict use of student surveys, which are a crucial tool for understanding youth behavior in t Utah. Thank you.
Committee chair3:23:03
Thank you. Please go ahead.
Kim Chandler, Granite School District Board member (own behalf)3:23:07
Thank you. My name is Kim Chandler. I am a current member of the Board of Education in Granite School District. Though I am speaking on my own behalf today, as a parent, I strongly object to government attempting to dictate, assess, and therefore control what makes my child a good person. Public schools are government. I don't have time to explain to you all the reasons why and all the things that I've seen and experienced, but I have tried repeatedly to no avail to speak against character grading. I did decide eventually to exercise my parental right to refrain from participation in character grading. However, in response, granite's general counsel informed me that the district would not allow students to opt out because the board had adopted those characteristics as standards upon which students are assessed. And he referenced 50 3G ten two oh four to support that decision that this is section of code that this bill addresses. The only path left to me then, and the only way for any parent who objects to character grading was to pull my children from full-time public school enrollment, which I did. Since they're no longer full-time students, some flexibility has now been permitted, but scenarios like mine are exactly why we need this bill. It addresses the relevant sections of COVID. Thank you. And moves characteristic grading. Thank you.
Committee chair3:24:14
Thank you. Thank you.
LaVar Christensen, former legislator3:24:17
LaVar Christiansen, former representative, longtime attorney, author and sponsor of the current serving and character education bill. And it's heartbreaking and devastating as you can all fight or foresee the day you leave office and look back on things that you've been so passionate about and been so intimately involved in and to watch you wonderful, wonderful representatives. Exemplary in every way, but you're misinformed and it's a blindside. And if it's just a matter of no grading and no tracking, absolutely. But to lose the vision of our founding principles in the year 2026 and to somehow perhaps even lead the nation in doing so, would be just a huge, heartbreaking mistake. Public virtue and patriotism is what character education is all about. If you read the every word of the existing statute before you vote, please, just like I made a commitment early on and I never broke it, that I would read every word of every bill, a thousand of them, and account to our constituents. And so I plead with you more time, more time that we could meet like this if I had 10 minutes, 15 minutes, 20 minutes. But we've led the nation in this effort for Thomas Jefferson shortly after the Constitution. Thank you. One thing, the very purpose and nucleus of all public education is civic or citizen education. Beware of the false escape of a weary collapse. Please don't let the unintended consequence, the combined cumulative unintended consequence of this as is. But yes, no tracking, no greeting, grading, that was never intended. And it's not right.
Committee chair3:25:53
Thank Thank you Mr. Christensen. There's So much more. And I please give us the opportunity to do so if this entire room were to meet with the state school representatives. Thank You Mr. Christiansen. We Could do so much more. Thank You. This is gonna conclude our public comments in person. We're gonna go online. If you are for, uh, the proposed legislation, please raise your hand. We're gonna go to one member of the public online if you are, if you wanna speak for the proposed legislation. Julie, um, if you'll please, uh, um, turn your camera on, make sure you, uh, make sure you unmute, uh, tell us who you represent. If anyone. Also a place of residence. I neglected to make that clarification in the per previous public comments.
Julie Ling, parent3:26:37
Um, you'll have one minute. I'm Julie Ling. I live in Washington County. I represent myself. I have a fifth grader. Um, I currently homeschool him. Previously I lived in Russia and I studied Soviet history and graduate school. America was founded on the principle of individual identity and individual rights. And this is actually what our social emotional curriculum, this is what is actually the problem, is because they're instilling collectivist, um, ideology into our children with really nice sounding words. And people could, having good intentions. But the people creating the SEL curricula are explicitly instilling our children with diversity, equity, and inclusion. And so that is at the heart of this. This is why we're seeing our kids out on the street pelting cars and people and calling them racists this last couple of weeks. This is what, this is the fruit of social emotional learning. And, and so all of this tracking, all of this, um, I have so much more to say, but I don't have time. It's actually turning our children's into collectivists. And that is not what America is founded on, and it is not okay for the schools to be doing this without parental permission and understanding what's going on. I urge everyone to please carefully consider House Bill 3 99.
Committee chair3:27:54
And thank you so much. Thank You, Julie. All right. Uh, if you are, if you're opposed and you'd like to speak, we're gonna take one opposed, please raise your hand and, uh, we'll take one public comment in opposition. Amy, uh, Amy Warren. You'll have one minute.
Amy Warren, Utah PTA3:28:21
Hello, my name is Amy Warren. Um, I represent Utah PTA as along, along with us representing myself. And I live in Salt Lake County, Utah. Um, as Utah PTA, we have taken position of a post on this bill. We feel as if it will restrict teachers and staff's ability to help with character education, which we are firmly in favor of. And while the current sub only addresses tracking, tracking has a lot to do with dealing with character education. This is where I'm talking for myself. This just earlier this week, I was in a parent-teacher conference with my child's teacher who told me that she was so grateful for my child 'cause she actually behaves. And that there's a group of kids in her class that cannot behave and that she is going to have to get with counselors to get those kids separated into different CLA classes that would be tracking their character development to be able to say to the counselor, Hey, I've been keeping track of this student and they have, they cannot behave. Can we move them to a different class? So I would encourage you to please vote no on this bill and protect character education and protect our kids in school, and allow their students, allow other students to be able to get the correction that, and the help that they need. Thank you.
Committee chair3:29:37
Thank you. Um, as we close our public comments, I'm just gonna note, uh, I know there's many that, uh, are here to speak to this issue. The members of the committee have received many hundreds of emails on this particular issue. And so I think that, uh, while we don't have additional time, we do recognize that there are, are a lot of voices, uh, that would like to, uh, like to be heard. And the members of the committee are, um, are, have, have received a number, uh, many, many hundreds of emails on this issue. All right. We're gonna move to the action items portion of our, uh, meeting. I'm gonna go to Representative Thompson.
Rep. Jason E. Thompson3:30:11
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I move, uh, that we hold first substitute how house Bill 3 99. That motion is in order. Would you like to speak to it? I would. Um, the first thing I'd like to say is, is that I can say with full confidence that I think everyone in this room, whether you're for or against this bill, are here because you care about our kids. And this is a, a complicated issue. Um, it's, it's extraordinarily complicated for me because I care about the leadership development of our kids. I care about the soft skills or the durable skills that our kids are, are, um, are learning. I care about the, you know, I believe that the leaders of this next generation are gonna be the ones that thrive and succeed in, in, in the world that, that they're inheriting. This bill just goes entirely too far. Um, uh, you know, the, we had a conversation about whether or not, um, this could prohibit character education. Well, number one, it redefines character education, but number two, um, it does, um, in line, uh, 4 0 9 says that personnel may not categorize grade, which I agree with grade, but then it says, implement the character, every education of a student down in B and C. You can't coordinate or scale character education. That's some breadth there. That, that, um, I believe is, is is very broad and very limiting in the classroom, especially with the kindergartner, kindergarten teachers that I see that are trying to help a little kid that's throwing desks across the room, having an emotional, emotional breakdown, trying to walk that kid through its emotions and get, get that kid to where he is not hurting himself or someone else in the classroom. Um, I, I can say that I know the sponsor of this bill. Uh, I know his heart and he cares about these kids. He cares about our families and I have the utmost respect for him. Um, but I would, um, uh, I would encourage my colleagues to vote with me to hold this bill. This bill is not the right bill. Um, and maybe someday down the road we can get to something where everybody can come to agreement on it without it being too expansive. Thank you.
Committee chair3:32:26
Alright, Thank you Representative Thompson. Um, I have a number of lights on. If your light is on us to speak to the motion to hold, I'm gonna go to you, Representative MacPherson.
Rep. Matt MacPherson3:32:37
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I support the motion to hold. I just wanted to point out briefly, if you look at pretty much any national, uh, study from parents, they are, um, more interested in, uh, academic rating, uh, of their students and would like to have more focus in our schools on academics and less on, um, these soft skills, even though they are important to many people and, um, important that they're being taught. Um, but at the same time, when, when parents generally judge, um, schools, when they generally judge, um, performance, they're looking at academic scores. Um, I think that the, the bill itself has some adjustments that need to be made, uh, in order to obviously clear out what seems to be a lot of, um, problems that are stemming from either, uh, the language in the bill that's not clear or perhaps a mis uh, in information or, or a misunderstanding of what it's trying to accomplish. And I support trying to make some adjustments there. I'll be happy to work with the sponsor on that. So I support the motion to hold.
Committee chair3:33:43
Okay, thank you. We're gonna go to, uh, representative. I think so all my labels are off right now, so I think it's up.
Committee chair3:33:49
Representative Hayes. Thank you. Thank
Rep. Sahara Hayes3:33:52
You, Mr. Chair. And I, I don't wanna be too belabor the point. Um, thank you for inspiring a robust discussion and giving my internal a lot of work this last week. It's what I did, representative. So, um, so I was homeschooled until ninth grade. And the number one question that I was always asking that my parents were asked was, well, what about socialization? We weren't asked, oh, is she gonna be up to date on reading and writing and all of that. People were worried that I wasn't going to learn how to be a little human that knew how to interact with other little humans. And I think we cannot underestimate the value that schools hold because this is where people spend so many hours of their day. And I, I know that the intent of this is not to take away all, all of the ability for teachers to, um, correct bullying and bad behavior and things like that. But I also know that there are unintended consequences in a lot of the bills that we run. And I see this as potentially handcuffing our educators, um, and their ability to, to do the work that they're here to do. And I fear those unintended consequences. And so I, I am fully supportive of the motion to hold. And again, thank you for a very robust discussion.
Committee chair3:35:05
Alright, thank you. Uh, we're gonna go to, I think it's Representative Libe. Is your light on? Yes. Okay, go ahead.
Rep. Karianne Lisonbee3:35:12
Thank you. Thank you Mr. Chair, and I wanna thank the sponsor as well. This has been a good discussion. The committee has really taken a look at this issue. I think we can get there. Um, and I am also committed to work on this if, if you want me to. So, um, as a committee member, I'm completely happy trying to get at what is right, where's the right line? Thank you.
Committee chair3:35:38
Thank you representative.
Rep. Karianne Lisonbee3:35:39
I'm just gonna note, um, uh, my concern stems with striking section 50 3G ten two oh four. I wanna read a couple of site provisions that are in that section. It says, the legislature recognizes that the cultivation of a continuing understanding and appreciation of a constitutional Republican principles of the representative democracy in Utah and the United States among succeeding generations of educated and responsible citizens is important to the nation and the state. It says the legislature recognizes that the primary responsibility for the education of children within the state resides with their parents, and that the role of state and local government is to support and assist parents in fulfilling that responsibility. I agree a wholeheartedly with those statements and I don't support striking them. I'm just gonna also note, through an integrated curriculum, students shall be taught in connection with regular schoolwork, respect for an understanding of the Declaration of Independence and the constitutions of the United States and the state of Utah, Utah history, including territorial and pre territorial development to the present and the essentials and benefits of the free enterprise system. I think those are critical elements of our statute that I think need to be retained. And that's why I'll be voting in favor of the motion to hold, uh, back to the sponsor on the mo, uh, on the motion. Yeah, no, uh, thank you committee. Thank you for the discussion. Once again, we've been here a long time. I don't wanna keep you here even longer, so, um, I will support the motion to hold.
Committee chair3:36:58
Alright, thank you. And, uh, to the make of the motion, I'll wait. Motion before us is to hold house Bill 3 99. First substitute prohibition against student character tracking and grading systems. All in favor, please say aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed? That carries unanimously. Thank you.
Committee chair3:37:20
Um, committee members, uh, I realize we're past our scheduled committee time. We do have two bills on the agenda. Um, if you are willing to continue, we'll, we'll try and do the best we can. Um, representative er has both of the last items she's requested that we hear House bill three 12. Um, if you're able to and are willing then, uh, we, we'd love to try. We we're gonna have additional, uh, long committee meetings if you're unable to. We recognize that we're past our scheduled time. And so with that, uh, representative Voxer, uh,