H.B. 437 Environmental Permitting Amendments: transcript

Thank you everyone for having us here today. Uh, HB 4 37. This goes back to my background as I come into here. Graduated mechanical engineering. And so I try to look at stuff and how can we make stuff more efficient? And I think this achieves two things. We're trying to streamline stuff, make it more efficient, but also prevent government bloat, right? Trying to expand. So is what this proposes. This comes from our friends over at DEQ and division of, uh, gravel mining doum over in DNR. And this creates, as workflows increase or decrease as the ebb and flow. It creates a optional permitting process. An expedite expedited process where especially on complex permits, they can access and use a, an optional third party that is licensed qualified, has experience in the field. So they set up some criteria to make sure it's vetted. Qualified person, third party licensed, verified with experience. They check all the ethics boxes, no conflicts of interest, and then they can do some of the grunt work, some of the background work that preps the permit so that when it gets to DEQ or to Dogum, that they can just review it, all the preliminary work is done, and it can go through the process and it can move along its way. So it helps lighten their burden, their process. It doesn't eliminate any of the environmental process or check marks. It doesn't prevent or, uh, diminish public comment or the appeals process. It just helps streamline the flow. Um, that's, uh, my understanding of the bill. Would love to have Director Davis speak to it and, uh, give, share some of his insight. Go Mr. Chair. Tim Davis, executive director

of the Department of Environmental Quality. Great to see you all this morning. I'm, I'm pretty sure the government bloat was a straight line for me to talk about, uh, something that I ate this morning, but I'm, I, I, I'll, I'll try to shy away from that bad of a dad joke. Um, so I, I appreciate, uh, very much, um, Representative Shallenberger bringing this legislation. It's part of the department and, uh, the division of oil, gas and minings work to, to streamline our permitting, to make permitting faster, but without weakening protections. The, the key to this, uh, is that this process would allow us to certify professionals like engineers, uh, uh, hydrologists so that a applicant could come in and say, we would like, we want this faster than you can do it currently. Uh, with the queue that you have and the processes that you have, they would then hire these qualified, uh, professionals to do the review, the grunt work of the review outside of our process. They would pay the full cost for it, and then it slides back into the department to, for us to ensure that it complies with the law of rules and regulations. So it, the benefit of that is they, it can be as fast as, uh, as the qualified professional, uh, can do it as, as well as how, as fast as the applicant wants to pay for them to do it. Uh, and then during time boom times, it takes those applications out of our queue, which means that the other, our normal process will be that much faster. So it is, uh, we don't think this will weaken, uh, what we do. Uh, state of Pennsylvania has been doing this, and I'll tell you my counterpart there with skeptical at first, uh, when they, when they first started this similar process. And, and she says it's, it's worked fabulously. So it's, uh, and this gives me a chance to get one of my bingo words off The, uh, marked off fabulously, uh, was, was one of the last ones on the top row in my bingo card today. So, um, so the, uh, uh, I, I encourage the, the committee to, uh, to, to vote for the legislation, but I'm happy to answer any questions. Thank you. That concludes our presentation.

Thank you so much, vice chair. Um, currently, how long is the process now? Uh, Mr. Chair? It depends on the process. So, uh, whether it's, uh, so I'll give you, uh, an air quality permit is, uh, on average 131 days right now for a, made a new air permit. So, but we have each MI processes, uh, has a different timeline. Uh, one of the, uh, this would be most beneficial for the longer, more complex applications, which would largely would be air quality, a new brand new, uh, water quality discharge permit. Uh, something involving, uh, like a new, uh, radioactive, uh, waste permit. Something along those lines. But it, this would be, this doesn't di require us to do it. It it creates, it allows us to create the process where we, where we think there'd be most advantageous. And, sorry, next question. One more question. We passed, I think we passed a bill in this committee just recently that would help with that process, right? To do the committee under DEQ with, with bringing all those processes together to work with this. Is that correct, Mr. Chair? There's a, there's a myriad of, uh, of permitting reforms that are coming together. This is just, this is one of those, uh, those, let's say arrow in the quiver of how do we do this better, but not weak in protections.

Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Uh, the two words as I read the spell that were red flag for me, were expedited review. And, um, you have discussed this, but, but what brings to what it brings to my mind is a particular, um, project that would affect my district and the east side, a mining project. And I, I would want insurance that a project like that, that affects air quality for so much of Salt Lake County would not be, um, undermined or would not be advantaged by having an expedited review. Is that a question or, Yeah. Well, I'd like you to discuss that little more. I mean, he said that it wouldn't, it wouldn't, um, diminish the quality, but I'd just like some more assurance on that

Particular Yeah, I'd love to invite, uh, M**k Thomas from the division of Oil, gas and Mining to come up and speak to that, if that's okay. Hey, Thank you.

Thank you, chairman. Thank you representative Mr. Davis. Uh, my name is M**k Thomas, the director of oil and gas and mining with the state of Utah. Um, a little bit of breach of ate this morning, so I'll do the best my answer to that question directly before we get into our opinion or place on the bill. Uh, the bill as it is right now, doesn't circumvent or change any of the current regulations and processes that are in place for mining. Absolutely not. What it does is it takes the amount of administrative time to get to the point where the division or the, uh, pardon me, the, uh, department makes a decision and it moves it into the department and the division's hands faster, not more incomplete. And I would even argue that by going with a pre-certified organization or con contractor or consultant, it gives a much more thorough, robust, and accurate body of work for the, for DEQ and OGM to evaluate. So it's a win. And again, it actually, hopefully will improve the accountability of all parties while shrinking time. Mr. Chair, may I add one more thing? Uh, this also does not, uh, shrink or diminish the public comment process that may that, uh, is retained in statutes. So it doesn't diminish the, the review, the public comment process. Those are retained.

It's really, as director, uh, Thomas said, it's, it's, it's, it enables it to, uh, in, in some ways, it'll, it'll ensure the quality of the application and the review is, is higher because we've certified these, uh, professionals ahead of time as well.

Thank you for that, that assurance makes a difference to me. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Two questions. Um, address the, uh, fiscal note. Would you please, representative, Can you repeat the question, please? The fiscal note? Uh, yeah. So the fiscal note, um, if representative, not Representative Davis, if Director Davis could also speak to that, there was a portion, uh, from OGM and then a little bit of a, more of a portion from DEQ. And if you could speak to that

Mr. Chair. Uh, the, so the at, since this is part of the department's, uh, efforts to make our permitting process more efficient, uh, again, without weakening protections, uh, we think we can absorb the upfront cost and then the ongoing cost would be covered, uh, through, uh, dedicated credits through fees. So, uh, but this, this is something that will ultimately save us time. Um, so that factors into, um, um, the fiscal note as well.

And my last question would be, uh, you said it was a bill similar in Pennsylvania. Uh, Mr. Davis, I thought you were, your, one of your goals of your department was to reduce all of these approval times anyway. Is this going to help that

Mr. Chair? Yes. This is, this is part of being able to do that, especially for those really complex, uh, applications that would take longer and consume a lot of our staff time. Uh, this is part of that, a multi-factor approach to improving and, uh, our permitting times and still being protective.

Uh, not seeing any other lights from members of the, well, I have a question. Uh, I think as I read this, your qualified reviewers are approved and regulated through your department, is that correct? Correct. And through the, uh, uh, division of oil, gas and mining, we would have a, we would pre certify people, uh, based on the, qualify the criteria in the statute. So Essentially you'll create a list of, of people that if they want an expedited review, they can pay extra for and go through that process. Correct. Okay. And then ultimately the same public hearings will happen, the same approval from your office will happen, it will just be that review process that that's taken care of?

Correct. Can you talk really quickly about the goals you have to improve our timing on, and it's come up a few times on, on your goals, uh, as the division director to improve, uh, permitting times for, for different projects?

Yep. While not, while not creating a higher degree of risk or public, uh, risk. Yeah. Mr. Chair, I'm happy to. So we are looking across, um, the entire agency to say, where can we speed up our processes? Where can we make things more transparent? Uh, where can we use e permitting, for example, so that it's somebody can apply all online, they can track their, their, uh, application through a dashboard. Uh, where can they use this kind of process, especially on a complex application, take it out of our process, uh, for the grunt review, bring it back in to make sure that it's com still complies with the law. All of those pieces will help us do what we need to do to protect, uh, all utahns, uh, to protect Utah's airline and water, while supporting, uh, communities and growth statewide, um, without undermining, uh, that, that mission. So we're, we're looking at, pretty much, we're looking at everything in the department over the next six months. We will review everything that the department does from a checklist to a standard to a process to say, does it directly protect and improve air, airline and water, uh, and communities? Or if not, let's look at, uh, replacing that with something that does or eliminating it. This is, again, this is not in any way diminishing protection. It's focusing on protection.

Thank you for that. And I want to tell you, uh, thank you for all you're doing to, to help make the department great, make the process efficient, while still protecting the citizens of Utah. So thank you so much. Welcome.

Okay, here we go. Now again, MC Thomas, director of Oil and Gas and Mining, uh, um, within the Department of Natural Resources, we are fully in support of this. Bill administratively had achieved several of the goals that the division has. Um, wonderfully the division's goals for increasing permit efficiency without compromising risk, um, are in line entirely with the depart with the Department of Environmental Quality, which is a, which is a wonderful place to be. I, I can't speak just briefly, some additional comments to, uh, executive Director Davis. Um, currently with a lot of the large permits, especially, which we're trying to resolve here, the contractors go with, or pardon me, the operators usually go with contractors who are the lowest bidder or have the best lobbyist, and maybe that continues to go on. But ultimately, we've found operators have found that upfront savings sometimes transmit into long-term costs. So vetting contractors who can do these permits quickly and efficiently is in the best interest of industry and the operators in the state as well. Um, and I, we, we, we completely support the bill as is. Um, we're happy to be mentioned in the bill. You'll notice that much of the text is just very, very similar to identical to what, uh, DEQ is, because the goals are the same and the processes are the same. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Vice Chair. Uh, I'd like to reserve the right to make a motion and make a quick comment, if that's all right. You bet. So, just as, as he was de describing the process of bringing this back to the state for local control and ex, uh, more efficient operations and hiring third party consultants to do these reviews, that's, uh, that's the process we've been following for maybe my entire 40 years at the Power company. We've, we've hired third party professionals to do all the field work for the, uh, for the BLM and for the Fish and Wildlife. So to do that for the state will be business as usual because we can hire somebody professional, qualified professional to do it decades before the BLM or the Fish and Wildlife can send somebody. So with that, I would like to make a motion that we pass out favorably. There's not a sub or anything.

You already? I have already. Thank you.

Waive. Thank you.

I'll waive. All right.

So I, this bill is about streamlining and making a couple agencies more efficient, so I will try to streamline and make my presentation more efficient. Thank you. Um, So this is, uh, at the request. We've been working with, uh, DEQ and Dogum to help streamline as part of the new director's efforts to make their, their division more efficient. And so is what it consists of is helping with the ups and downs as permits and applications come in. Uh, they can create a process for certain applications, certain permits that those can be done by vetted and qualified third party, uh, professional engineers, land surveyors, geologists, landscape architects, so people that are on a qualified list. It's sort of like, I, I reckon it to like a paralegal that can help sort of do the prep work, sort of oversee it and get it prepared before it comes back to, uh, the division. And it's an optional process that the applicant can opt into, but it would help streamline the process and prepare it for the division so that when it gets to the division, they can just review it for, uh, finality completeness and stamp it and move on or reject it and send it back. In order to be on this list, they would have to pass a, an ethics, a background check to make sure they're actually qualified, that they don't have a criminal record or a, you know, a, a bad past. And they would also ma have to make sure that there's not a conflict of interest with any permits or any practices that they're working on or reviewing. But that's it, it's a simple update to help these, uh, these divisions. And I'd like to turn the time over to Tim Davis, the director of d EQ for a quick minute, and then we will wrap up. Welcome

Director. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Good evening. Um, Tim Davis, DEQ, executive Director. Uh, think about it this way. The, so this, this process will only really help those, uh, permittees that are going through one of our more complex, uh, processes that that'll take a lot more time. This will allow those, those qualified, pre-qualified certified, uh, professionals to do all the grunt work in the application outside of our process. Then it slides back into the department for us to ensure that it complies with the law that keeps those applications out of our queue too, which means that our normal queue will move more quickly. Um, I, let me address the fiscal note. Uh, we, it says we will, we, and I'll speak for, uh, director Thomas, if I can, uh, that D-N-R-D-Q will absorb the, the cost, uh, to stand up this program. 'cause we were going to do something like this anyway. You've heard me say this multiple times. I'm looking at how do we do things faster, more efficiently in a way that doesn't undermine protections. Uh, this is a, uh, working with Representative Shallenberger, this is one of those, uh, tools that, uh, we'd like to see move forward. So happy to answer any questions. Thank You. And, and, uh, for brevity, uh, respect for your time, uh, the director of Dogen would repeat those same words. If you have a specific question, we'd like to have 'em come up, but if not, we'll move things along.

Thank you. Uh, the director or the sponsor? Either one, Ms. Chair. But, uh, it looks like this is similar to, uh, passport application, for example. You, you, you can expedite it or you can go through process. We're not taking away the, the normal, but if we wanna expedite it, is that correct? Yes. Uh, Mr. Chair, that is correct. This is not, this is only if someone selects to choose this more expedited route.

Thank you. I think the fiscal note is that was touched on somewhere around a hundred thousand dollars or so a year. I guess my question would be why aren't we just putting another person in our agencies to help, uh, do this in-house?

Go ahead, Mr. Chair. Um, this will, um, ultimately save staff time to review other applications and work on other things. It's really, it's a hundred thousand dollars to stand up the program and then the ongoing fees that people would pay will pay for itself going forward.

Thank you Mr. Chair. I will move HB 4 37 Environmental permitting amendments for favorable recommendation.

I'll wa and you'll waive.

House Bill 4 37 Environmental Permitting Amendments by Representative Shallenberger. This bill was heard in Public Utilities and Energy with the vote of 7 0 5.

I move to circle. Thank

Thank you. This bill comes from the division of, uh, environmental quality DEQ and Dogum. Uh, the di direct new director over there. He's making a focus on trying to streamline and make things more efficient as they review stuff. So this is one of those methods that helps create a streamlined pre uh, process for complex permitting to create a list of, um, verified third party outside contractors that, uh, somebody can choose to work with as an additional cost. And they can work with this third party engineer or outside permitting group to do a lot of the prep work, similar to like a paralegal and a law office. And so then that will come back and the DEQ office will verify that the work was done correctly. And, uh, and that's it. So it helps streamline the process and at their request would be welcome to any questions or comments.

I'll waive. Thank you. Summation has been waived.

Working with DEQ and Dogum, which is a department of oil, gas, and minerals, helps 'em create an X value process for permits without lowering environmental standards or shifting final authority away from the state. Um, but allows them when they can't, when they need to or, or there's, uh, sufficient demand to be able to use licensed, experienced, uh, third parties to help in the process, but they maintain final review and approval for permits. With that, I'm open to questions. Thank You. Looking for

Vote. Senator Vickers Baldy Lewin Bramer Bus Comore a Escamia Fillmore Rover Harper Kins. Ipson Aye. Johnson Juab McKay. Mikel Milner Aye. Musselman Owens pitcher Plum Rebi Aye. Sandal Aye. Stevenson. Aye. Stratton Bickers. Weiler Let Me, Hey, Two more Wilson. Let me run two. I'll come back. Winterton Juab Juab Fillmore Aye. Let's President Adams. Aye. House bill 4 37.

Thank you President. I've got a four sub online. So motion to delete title and body of third substitute House Bill