H.B. 444 State Land Access Road Amendments: transcript

This is, uh, HB 4 44, uh, first sub. Um, and, and I'll just, I, I've worked closely with, uh, um, some of the different parties who wanted little tweaks and changes. Uh, this is a bill that I ran last year, uh, left. One thing, one inadvertent problem was that, uh, if a landowner had a road that's considered a Class D road and it goes across his property onto another piece of his property, but then terminates and doesn't access any, any state or, or private land other than theirs, they ought to be able to shut the road where they want to not leave it open. So, and that I, my bill prevented them as a private landowner from being able to do that. So that's, that's one thing it did. Uh, the DWR wanted some, some, uh, provisions in there so that they could permanently close some of the roads on, on DWR property so that, uh, so that they could protect the wildlife of which their primary goal is to manage the wildlife. So I, I added that in. Um, and I, and I think the rest of it is, is mostly just fundamentals on how it works. I'm, I'm, I'm open to question, but I think that's the fundamental part of the bill.

Yeah. So how common are these roads, Uh, class D roads?

Yes. Very, very common. Yes. Almost every road in this state is, uh, class D if it's not maintained. So a lot of these roads are two track roads that drive out through the middle of the desert, um, and four wheelers traditionally go on those or something. And, uh, a lot of times you don't even know that the roads are there, you know, uh, they're just, they're just obscure. Some, some of the Class D roads are improved, um, including gravel or whatever. But, uh, but primarily the Class D roads are the ones here. Here's what the genesis of this bill is, is when someone, it, it used to be that a handshake would work with people and say, yeah, you're welcome to come up through, through here to get to your property. Um, or, or in another way, I'll sell you this piece of property and you can just always drive up through my property to get to it. Um, that handshake goes away after time, apparently, and people start wanting to shut their roads and not let them have access to their property. So that's what this does, is it maintains the right so that people can still access their property. Or if they traditionally use that property to access public land, which has multiple use, then it, it maintains that, that road to be open so that an individual can't close it if it's always been used to access.

Can I ask a follow up? Pardon me? Yeah, go ahead. Okay. So, um, and there are some cases where we have roads that are quote unquote private roads, but there's a public access easement that's been established. Does this cover those as well, or is that a still a separate problem?

Nope, this is exactly what that does. Okay. It, it prevents an individual from closing a road on their private property that has always been used to access the public property. 'cause, 'cause the public needs to be able to still access it and they shouldn't be able, here, here's an example. In, in Colorado, I Uintah Colorado elk hunting, and Colorado sells a little 100 foot strip all the way around a lot of their big forest area, and they shut everybody out. And, and you can't access the forest because you have to cross their a hundred foot strip of private land. So in the same respect, if, if the public has always used that access, um, and, and the access, I, I think, uh, Senator, one of the, one of the Senator Vickers last year or a couple years ago, said if it's been traveled in the last 50 years. Right. It's a public access. I

Remember that one. One more if I may. Mr. Sand Senator Sandall, I think it was. Yeah. Oh, that's right. That is who it was. Yep. Okay. Just one more follow up. Is that right? Sure. Okay. So you mentioned for, for public. So I can imagine that there's a road that leads to hunting areas or whatever, but there are also these private roads that lead to, um, privately owned lands, and so this covers those as well.

Right. So once, once there is a public use easement, public access easement established, this would say that's, it's basically impossible for those now private road owners to come and change their mind later and say, well, we actually don't like all these cars driving up and down this road, and we're gonna just change our mind and put up a gate.

Yes. Okay. Great. Thank you.

Um, yes. So currently who has jurisdiction over Class D roads?

Uh, it's a shared jurisdiction between the counties and the state. So if the county abandons the road, then the state owns that road.

So this in your bill will give jurisdiction to DWR, is that correct?

Uh, DWR has jurisdiction on their own property With the state. Okay.

So this would change, would this change the jurisdiction? So if in the future, let's say something happens, the state can then decide anyways, I, I guess my question to you is, if the state already has jurisdiction for an easement, why would we need this bill?

Uh, the, the counties, well, there may be a reason to shut the road that everybody agrees to, and so primarily the county should have the first because they're, they're the closest to the situation. So they should determine whether or not there's a, a public access. So basically what this bill does is it says, you know, counties, counties can work with the state. There's a process in the bill that says counties can work with the state to close the road. However, if it is used to access other people's private property, or if it's used to access the public lands, then it can't be closed.

Okay. Um, yeah, I guess, um, I'm familiar with how easements work, and so I just wanted to make sure I understood the jurisdiction part of that. Um, I do have a follow up question, if I may. Go ahead. Um, on your fiscal note, you have one time fee. Would this be something that in the future would be ongoing if we didn't capture all the private properties? Is this something that,

No. So, uh, and, and that's, that's a great question. Um, so pco uh, in fact, somebody's here from pco, maybe they could come and speak to this, but, uh, they're Coming up. They're coming up. There we go.

Go ahead. Yeah. Dylan Hoyt, deputy director at the public lands office. Can you just repeat the question?

Yes. So on the fiscal note, it has one time, um, fee of two 200,000, $28. So I'm wondering if, and then there's an ongoing for, um, I guess 1.2 million once it continues on in the base budget. So I was looking at why there is no ongoing funding, but if every year we're looking at this to continue on, if you could just explain to me a little about the fiscal note.

Yes, I can. So the, I can speak to the 228,000 that applied to the original bill, not to the first substitute. The change there is that the first substitute allows our office to be a little more strategic in where and when we go and study and record these with the county recorders, um, rather than just doing all the counties.

Okay. And then I have, so Does the subcontractor, or does the sub substitution take that out?

It takes the 228,000 out, yes. Okay. Okay.

Okay. I, I, go Ahead. I also, I have A follow up too to Matt. I'm, I'm actually a little confused on the physical note because the physical note was created. Is it? Okay. Yeah, there we go. That's, yeah, I was like, I think the physical note is zero, so it shows zero first Up, the first, uh, The first up, yeah. Okay. Thank you. Okay. I'm, I'm sorry, I just have the, I had a copy of the latest.

Yeah, so the, the physical note was one and a half million because we had a requirement for every county to record, um, their easements within a certain time period. We had to remove that to get rid of the physical note. So the counties will continue to record as they're able to.

Okay. So I see the current fiscal note on the substitute. Thank you. My follow up question to that,

I know you talked about recording of the roads for Class D roads, um, earlier this year or last year, I went down to Bear's Ears and, and was, and saw how that process was done, um, with the cars is, from what I understood at that point, most of those roads were already recorded. Is this to back pay or is it for future, or how, how would the funds be used for the future?

Yeah, so let me separate those two things, if it's okay, Mr. Chair. Mm-hmm. Um, so we have the RS 2, 4, 7, 7 effort, which is what you are seeing on the Bears Ears Tour. Um, that's the 12,363 roads across 22 counties in Utah. And that evidence, uh, recording mm-hmm. Is linked, uh, to litigation that's happening to establish, uh, and clarify the right of way and the scope, or I guess the distance that we can maintain those roads with the county and the state. Um, this effort is focused on state lands, so think state parks areas where maybe forestry, fire state lands through the Sovereign Lands program has roads along like Colorado River or the Green River. Mm-hmm. Um, but most of the roads that we identified were in state park areas. Mm-hmm. So we worked with the state parks to kind of identify is this a road that, how do you use it, I guess. And so this would expand for public lands, it just continue with expanding that program. Is that What I understand? This bill specifically applies to on state lands. So state parks, sovereign lands, those kind of things. This, this bill is not tied directly to public lands, but what it does is it provides those roads that are the nexus from, say, a community that may pass through some private and then gets onto those public lands. Mm-hmm. So it's that missing link in between.

Okay. Okay. Great. Thank you so much. I Appreciate it. Thank you.

My name is Brett Stewart with Utah HV Advocates. Um, the way I describe a B road is it's graded, um, UDOT funds it to be maintained A BB road, A B road, as in boy. Okay. A D road is typically, it's not maintained by udot. Sometimes they allow the counties to use a touch of it, but that's mostly our off highway vehicle trail systems. And we've got close to a hundred thousand miles of it, of trails in Utah. But the B roads, when you see a greater blade that's been across the road out in the middle of nowhere, that's typically your B road. The D roads are your trails for hunters or traveling through, say, private property to get to public lands. It's not maintained. But that's one thing about the off highway vehicle program. We have a restricted account that maintains that, and we now got trail crews across the state that uses that fund to maintain the D roads.

That's what a C road is. City. City Roads, we're Not much engaged in that too much. They're usually C Yeah. Just wondering what that was.

You. Uh, my name's Justin Shannon. I'm with the Division of Wildlife Resources. I want to thank the sponsor for, um, helping us streamline some of the, the sections on our WMAs. Um, Representative Shelley and I spent a lot of time this year and trucks and trying to figure out roads and our, on our wa WMAs and why they're unique for, for wildlife. And so, um, anyways, he's, he's made some changes in here that are, that are really gonna be good for wildlife. And our properties are a little different in the sense that sometimes we have to close areas for, to allow deer and elk and other things to come down and, and migrate and not leave the property to, to get on highways or, um, other ag fields and, and those types of things. And also, we have sensitive areas like places where ducks nest, and if you had road access that was open, um, they wouldn't be there. And we have birds on the great Salt Lake that are, are really important and, um, and are being watched for federal protections. And so anyways, um, thank you Representative Shelley for, for making this bill and putting it in a really good spot for, for wildlife. And we're in full support. Thank you.

Hello, members of the committee, uh, Mr. Chair, lay felder with udot. Um, just to add a little bit to the discussion on, on the road types, uh, of, of course, the Class C roads are city roads. Um, and, and the way, the way, uh, I describe that is, any road within a city is a class C road, unless it's designated as a state road. And then it's kind of similar in the counties, any improved. And, and, and generally paved road is a class B road that's in unincorporated counties, is a, is a county road, unless it's designated as a state road on in state statute. And then the Class D roads are also, you know, county roads that are jointly owned by the state and the county. The county has, has kind of, uh, jurisdiction over them, but they're generally unimproved roads, uh, that would not, uh, qualify for the, the B and c uh, funding as far as, uh, apportioning that funding. Um, so, uh, but I did wanna thank the sponsor. He has been great to work with both last year and this year as he's run these bills we're, we're, we're neutral on the bill, but he, he took care of our concerns and, and we appreciate that. And I also want to compliment just the work on this in general, uh, after he ran last year's bill, uh, if there's been improvements in, in this process of, of vacating a Class D road. And, and we appreciate that somebody who cares and, and works on an issue like this. So thank you.

Yes. Happy to. Hi, I'm Matt Anderson, uh, director of the Utah Sportsman's Caucus representing hunters, trappers, and anglers across the state. Um, we wanted to thank Representative Shelley for engaging on this bill. Um, when it first came out, we weren't big fans, but he was wonderful to work with us and get it into a spot where it's good for wildlife sportsman's access, and generally for the state of Utah. Um, really good to get some clarification around this issue, and we want to thank the sponsor and urge you to support this bill. Thank you. Thank You.

I move, we adopt the first substitute

I appreciate that we, uh, spoke to the first substitute. Appreciate

Aye. Move that we favorably recommend. I I need a number. Uh,

Yeah, I, I think this is good. I mean, these issues about public access easements have been brewing and ongoing. And I'm seeing in the area where, where I grew up, more and more people are getting more and more uptight and there are more and more efforts of keeping people off. What has for 150 years been an opportunity for people to recreate, hiking, camping, hunting, fishing, and in particular, uh, so I, I grew up in Morgan County, you have private land, that's a band. And then above that you have, uh, federal, you have us forest land. And if you can't get to the forest land, you can't use it. And that's the problem. So the problem is, is that, that over the hundreds of, well, 150 years we've been up there, there's always been a way to get up to the forest land to go hunting or to go hiking or camping or whatever you wanna do up there on forest service land. But more and more people are buying up those private properties and saying, well, I don't know if I like people driving across my land. And that's, that's the problem. And this, I think this is a, it is, I don't know if it perfectly solves it, but it is at least recognizing it's a problem and trying to solve the problem. And I do appreciate that very much.

Go ahead. All right. 4 44 is kind of a rerun from last year. There's not a whole lot of changes, but we do find some, some fixes that we have to have. Um, probably the most glaring fix is, uh, this, this prevents an individual from closing a road that has always been used as a, as a right of way or an access to public land or to other people's private property. What we didn't anticipate is if the private property that it goes through goes into another piece of private property that the same owner owns and then ends, my bill would, right now as it stands, prevents that owner from shutting the road when you first leave the highway. So, so if, if the private property is in two different names, but it's the same individual, we want to give them permission to be able to shut that road. So, uh, as long as that road doesn't continue on and access other people's private property or public property that's always been used as a right of way, then, then this gives them permission to shut, shut that road there. Um, it also requires public meetings before, or public meeting and notices before the road is closed. And, uh, you know, what the, what the implication is. So that has to be discussed at a public meeting. Um, county may not, uh, vacate or abandon a Class D road if the road provides public benefit to the state with regard to multiple use, access to public land or access to private land. And, and then there's one other small change. There's been a little bit of dispute out at the sand dunes as to the color of flags on, on OHV. So we're just like, you know what? We don't care what color the flag is, you just make sure you have a flag on and we're good. And that's pretty much the change. It's just kind of a fix it bill from last year. I'm sorry, that was just too funny. It is what it is. I know. It is what it is. And I've witnessed those discussions, so thank you for clarifying that.

Yeah, I, uh, I read the bill and I read it a second time and I kept thinking, I'm confused here because most counties don't want to close roads. They protect them for, you know, if, if I own the road all the way through, that should be up to me. Whether I don't want people on it, but I don't know if I ever sell it, somebody else might want to get to the property to the, to the next to me if they ended up buying my property. So I can't understand why we need a bill to tell us that. The owner can change if you want, but then you don't have to be, because my county recorder, they're adamant we protect people's rights. We don't close D roads. We want them to stay open. We've had a big problem with, you know, RS 2, 4, 7, 7 roads trying to gain the right to have those roads. And then we've done a lot of title fives on the BLM. So I just kept reading the bill trying to understand what are we trying to do here? Because it goes against what I've always had, uh, or been taught or understand. So, so what we're talking about is a prescriptive easement or a right of way that the general public has always used, um, to be able to access public land or an individual. 'cause back in the day when a handshake worked, um, you would say, Hey, yeah, drive up through here right up to your property. Or, or even probably a more realistic, uh, thing would be, yeah, this is all my property, but I'll sell you that top 40 acres up there and you just drive right up through here to it. So that's the access that he has to that land. Um, what this does is it prevents, um, the county from closing that access. If it meets either of those two criteria, if it accesses public lands or if it accesses another private property owners, then they're prevented to to close that. Some counties are willing to close those roads even though it shuts off the access. Okay. Alright. Yep. Because I, I don't know too many that want to, but this is for those that don't know how we operate really. So. Okay. Yep. I can go along with that. Thank you.

Hello, committee, my name is Chelsea Duke. I'm the Assistant Chief of Habitat for our, the Division of Wildlife Resources. Um, we are here to speak in favor of this bill. We really appreciate what Shelly, Representative Shelley has done and, um, the work that he's done over the last two years to get this bill into a great place. And, um, we, we support. So thank you.

Alright, I'll make the motion to favorably recommend second substitute house bill 4 4 4

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Uh, I would like to move sub number two and, uh, adopt the amendment.

Yeah. The, the second sub, just to add some clarification on, um, it, it added some stuff. Uh, there's been some confusion out on the sand dunes as to what color a flag has to be on a four wheeler. So we adjusted that. We, uh, we, we made a couple of, uh, change it. Let me just, it, it, uh, permits landowners to close the road at the beginning of their land if the road never leaves their land. Uh, that's, that's primarily what it does.

I waive. Okay.

I'd like to make a motion to adopt the amendment. Amendment number one. Amendment number one.

Yeah, it's just a simple amendment. Uh, it, uh, it states that if a state entity purchases land and then, uh, subsequently closes some roads on those lands that have previously been accessed by the public, that before they resell that land, they have to, uh, allow that access back.

Okay. This is a bill that we passed last year in this body that, uh, basically, um, we, we see the federal government closing roads all the time and shutting down access. So we thought, well, let's, uh, let's hold the state to the same standard so that we, uh, so that we don't have state entities closing roads that are unnecessarily closed. So if a road accesses public land or other private land, then this, this bill prevents that road from being closed that's already in code. We did a couple of adjustments. As I mentioned, um, there's been some confusion about flags on four wheelers out on the sand dunes. So we just eliminated the color requirement of those flags. Um, also one of the changes is, uh, if a road accesses private land and then it goes on to access other private land that's also owned by the same entity, then that person with the private land can close the road at the, at the main entrance as long as it isn't used to access other public land. If it's private land to other private land that's, that's named similarly, then there's a, a document that needs to be recorded saying the access is there. Um, and that's, that's primarily the, uh, the just of the bill. It's just an adjustment. I'm open to questions.

I'll waive summation has been waived.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Uh, I would like to move sub number two and, uh, adopt the amendment.

So let's do the, uh, uh, a motion to adopt second substitute. First, I would like to make a motion to adopt the second sub. Thank

Yeah. The, the second sub, just to add some clarification on, um, it, it added some stuff. Uh, there's been some confusion out on the sand dunes as to what color a flag has to be on a four wheeler. So we adjusted that. We, uh, we, we made a couple of, uh, change it. Let me just, it, it, uh, permits landowners to close the road at the beginning of their land if the road never leaves their land. Uh, that's, that's primarily what it does.

I waive. Okay.

I'd like to make a motion to adopt the amendment. Amendment number one. Amendment number one.

Yeah, it's just a simple amendment. Uh, it, uh, it states that if a state entity purchases land and then, uh, subsequently closes some roads on those lands that have previously been accessed by the public, that before they resell that land, they have to, uh, allow that access back.

Okay. This is a bill that we passed last year in this body that, uh, basically, um, we, we see the federal government closing roads all the time and shutting down access. So we thought, well, let's, uh, let's hold the state to the same standard so that we, uh, so that we don't have state entities closing roads that are unnecessarily closed. So if a road accesses public land or other private land, then this, this bill prevents that road from being closed that's already in code. We did a couple of adjustments. As I mentioned, um, there's been some confusion about flags on four wheelers out on the sand dunes. So we just eliminated the color requirement of those flags. Um, also one of the changes is, uh, if a road accesses private land and then it goes on to access other private land that's also owned by the same entity, then that person with the private land can close the road at the, at the main entrance as long as it isn't used to access other public land. If it's private land to other private land that's, that's named similarly, then there's a, a document that needs to be recorded saying the access is there. Um, and that's, that's primarily the, uh, the just of the bill. It's just an adjustment. I'm open to questions.

I'll waive summation has been waived.

Thank you Mr. President. I'd like to move, uh, amendment to rein. My name on second substitute house Bill. Four. Four four.

Yes. It's real short. It's a one word change, but, uh, rather than consultation, this change is to coordinating. We wanted to make sure the, um, wildlife division was working in coordination with the county, um, legislative body before closing these roads permanently.

To the motion to amend. Thank you. Appreciate the, the, the work on this. Just wanna point out that when we talk about coordination, that means we're working together, we're deciding together and moving forward together. And with that, I would move this up or the amendment.

Thank you. With that. A Class D road regulation requires the public meetings and notice before abandonment, um, the existing easements and access rights for public utilities and water infrastructure not impacted by the abate by abandonment, the county may not vacate or abandon a Class D road. If the road provides a public benefit to the state with regard to mobile use, access to public land or access to private land. And there's a small change to the safety flag that is, uh, required. OHB, which removes the, the required color of the flag just to make sure that's safe and can be seen. So with that, I'll yield

Thank you Mr. President. I waive summation and move that second substitute HR 4 44 as amended be passed.

Senator Vickers Baldy Lewin Bremmer Bus Comore Escamilla Aye. Fillmore Grover. Harper Aye. Kinins Kinins. A Ipson Johnson. Juab McKay. Mikel McKay Aye. Mikel Aye. Milner Aye. Musselman Owens pitcher Plum Rebe Sandal Stevenson Bratton Aye. Vickers Weiler Wilson. Aye. Winterton President Adams Aye.

Second substitute to, excuse me, house Bill 4 44 State Land Access Road Amendments by Representative Shelley.

Representative Shelley. Yeah. Motion to Concur.

in order. I speak to it. Yes. This, uh, is just one little, uh, line change instead of, uh, the DWR uh, um, in consultation with the counties, they need to coordinate with the counties before they close the road.