H.B. 464 Parent Taught Driver Education Amendments: transcript

Yes, I will. Thank you. Okay. Can you hear me in this? Okay, I I'll bring it closer.

All right. Thank you. And I have here with me, um, Kiara Pointer, who is actually the person who came to me initially with this bill at the very beginning. So I'm happy to have her with me today to help in the presentation. I absolutely love when youth get involved in the legislative process, when they learn how it works and they start participating, coming up with ideas, having conversations, and she was inspired and reached out to me and she came up with some ideas for a bill. Now the news cut hold of that first bill that came out pretty, uh, pretty intensely and I just wanna make it very clear to everyone here in the committee that we are not lowering the driver's age today. Okay. So that was in the initial draft of the bill and we decided after a lot of conversation with colleagues that that piece is just not ready yet and is going to need a lot more conversation. And so we are just speaking to a small piece, um, that was in the bill that was also, uh, Kiara's initial idea, which I really loved, which is the part about parent led drivers education for their children. So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna turn a little bit of time over to Kiara for her statement, and then we'll talk through exactly what the bill does. Go ahead.

Um, hi, my name's Kiara Poynter. Um, I attend Illa High School. I play on the school basketball team and I come from a family. Just this back. Oh, okay. Closer. Oh, right there. Um, my name's Kiara Poynter. I attend Illa High School and I play on the school basketball team. And I come from a family of three children in 2025, my health teacher, Mr. Jimenez, at Toula Junior High, taught our class how to contact our representatives and get involved in the legislative process. So I contacted Representative Peck with an idea to modify the teen driving law. We had a meeting and she told me that she would actually run a bill for me. I was really excited about her willingness to examine if any improvements could be made to current driving laws for minors. I presented rep, I presented Representative Peck with two ideas to change the ages for the driving permit and license and to allow for parent led driver's education. We're still discussing the first idea, so it's no longer contained in our bill. But the second idea is, and I would like to speak about that. I believe it would be a good option for parents to be able to teach their children driver's education. This would be helpful because some families do not have the time, money, or space in their school schedules. And some families simply don't feel that the traditional school or county driver's education programs are the right fit for their child. The cost of private driver's education courses can also be very high. In addition, some families are uncomfortable with driver's education being taught primarily in a classroom setting, which is how most school districts currently offer these classes. When students receive their permit, parents already plan to complete the required driving hours with their parents. Through a proposed parent taught driver's education program, parents would be able to take a more active role by providing both instruction and hands-on learning themselves. This would allow parents to personally observe their child's progress. Instead of only hearing feedback secondhand from an instructor. I spoke with a parent about this idea and she shared, in my opinion, as a mom, I know how my child learns best so I could tailor driving lessons to their specific needs and learning pace. I also believe confidence can grow faster for a new driver when they're learning in a familiar car alongside a parent. Some school districts and the driver's license division could still provide an approved curriculum for families to follow. Large families could especially benefit because they would already have access to the materials for multiple children. Most families will probably still use the at school driver's education programs that will continue to be available. But for some students and families, this could be an option that fits their family's needs better. In conclusion, I believe this would be a positive additional option for families alongside both in school and private driver's education courses. Thank you.

Thank you Kiara. So you can see that she actually has put a lot of thought into this. And when I met with her, I was super impressed by how much thought and research she had put into the ideas behind this bill. But when she brought up this idea of parent led driver education, it hit a core with me in a good way. I was like, you know what, that makes complete sense because I don't know if you're like me, if you've already had your children go to adulthood and become drivers, but really you're teaching them anyway all the time. You have to do that 40 hours of training with them. You are in the car at night and in the day you're teaching them how to parallel park all the time and do all the different things to get them ready for the test. And, um, it is absolutely a parent child thing already. Now, what people don't know is that in the state of Utah, we have had parent driver training resources for a long time. So the DLD has had access to those USBE has, has, has had access to those. I didn't know that until I actually started looking into this bill and they're like, oh yeah, we already have resources on those things. So those things are already available, um, to parents to be able to use. The one thing is that at the DLD, when they're signing the registration process for their child to get their driver's permit, there isn't a spot that says we're going to do the driver's training ourself. There's only two options. The two options currently are, we're going to do it at the school or we're going to do it with a third party. And we are proposing that because we already have the materials, because the parents are already doing 40 hours of training with the children. And because it's, there are so many youth that are not actually in a traditional school setting anymore. Like so many, we are in a parent's choice world right now. And even some of my own children did not. Were not in a school setting. And so we needed to figure out, okay, how and when are we gonna do this? And full disclosure, um, I actually taught my children to drive long before we actually took the permit test, so that by the time that they took that permit test and they were, I was signing it, yep, they can have a permit, we would walk out to the car and I would say, okay, now you get to drive us home, or you get to drive us to the store. And my children would be like, right now, right now I get to do it. And I'd be like, yeah, you do. Now is your first time. And so we would take it nice and easy, but they would do it and they would cross over those boundaries, step out of their comfort zones, which truthfully, I think the youth need more and more nowadays. Learning how to drive is one of those rite of passage things where they step outta their comfort zone, it helps 'em be able to get a job, helps 'em to be able to date, it helps 'em to be able to do all of these things. And we actually do have a problem in our culture with a lot of youth who maybe are, are too anxious or haven't had the opportunity to have the experiences yet that aren't actually stepping out. I think this is a great opportunity with parents and children that they could do this together. So what this bill does exactly is it makes it so that at the DLD, this is how it would play out. The child studies for their driver's permit, just like would always happen before we start that driver process. They would go into the DLD, they would take the test. If they pass the test and they're filling out the application for the learner's permit, there would be three choices instead of two choices. The three choices would be, I'm gonna take driver's ed at the school, I'm gonna do it with a third party, or my parents are going to do it. The parents are not going to do any of the testing. No written testing, no driving testing. Those things have always happened under the purview of the DLD. Those things would still happen under the purview of the DLD. And then the parent would need to go and do the 40 hours of driving that they normally do with all of the children that have their learners' permit. And then they would also need to have observation hours. They would need to have at least six hours of behind the wheel training. So the parents are actually doing specific training. They would also, oh, I forgot to mention this part, that at the DLD, if they said, yes, we're going to do the training at home or parent taught, then they would say, okay, you need to contact your LEA for the links to the materials. And so then the LEA would give the links to the materials that already exist so they're already usable. And then they would take those materials and they would study them and do the training with the, the family. So there are videos and modules and stuff already. There are some youth in the school right now who are currently doing online driver's ed because they can't fit it into their schedules or there, the only time drivers that is happening is early morning. So then, and, and they can't fit that into their schedules for whatever reason. Or maybe they're not a morning person, they can't do it. And so they're already trying to come up with other solutions. This will be an option not just for, um, students that aren't in traditional public high school, but it will also be an option for some of those students who have summer birthdays and some of those students who don't have time in their class schedules to fit it in or might just be doing online training now. They would be doing it with an instructor, which is their parent. There are some qualifications for the parent and child. The parent does need to have a current driver's license and like a clean record and it needs, they need to also have, um, they need to watch a certain video together. Let's see if I can find where that is. Anyway, um, oh yeah, zero fatalities, parent teen night. So they're in-person or virtually these parent teen nights happening. And in order for the parent to be the driver's ed teacher for the child, they would need to attend one of these zero fatalities parent teen nights with their child, whether it's virtually or whether it's in person as well. And truthfully, I think as parents take this active role, probably the parents are actually gonna be even better drivers. I don't know about any of you, but if you've taught your children to drive, as soon as you know they're examining you and you're teaching them, you suddenly sort of do those signals a little bit longer and all that kind of stuff when maybe you weren't before. So anyway, that's the gist of the bill and we are open to any questions.

It does, except for I have one other point. I'm sorry. Can I say one other point? You can, or is are we too late? Keep going. You know, I've never done that before, but one other point that I thought I'd bring to everybody's attention is that we would not be the first state doing this. There are multiple other states, seven or eight other states in, in the United States that are doing parent led driver's education. So this is not an unusual practice.

Thank you Mr. Chair. I just had, um, a question for the seven or eight other states that have implemented this type of program, um, did they see any, uh, difference, any, um, increase in like their insurance rates or anything like that for having, having kids that are taught by people that are maybe not, maybe not the best drivers teaching them?

Actually, I would doubt that, but I haven't looked that piece up, so I have to be honest, I'm not a hundred percent sure about that. I think that it, that part of the conversation without looking up the current data would be conjecture. Um, so I don't know. I don't know if they are actually unsafe because like I said, I pretty much was the one who did teach my children how to drive, even though they did watch some modules of things or whatever, they already knew ahead of time and they didn't ever have accidents or anything like that. And, and then their insur, of course they wouldn't have known, but their insurance didn't change, so.

Thank you Mr. Chair. So I wanna make sure I understand the status quo. So currently the materials are available to parents who want to use them to teach their kids to drive. Is that correct?

Currently, materials are available to parents who want to be part of the learning process, but it is not in statute that they can say at the DLD that they are going to be the driver's education teacher.

So if a parent today someone went and obtained the materials, taught their kids how to drive, however they did that, they got them all done, they went down to DLD. What would DLD say if, like, if you for example, showed up with a 16-year-old and said, I've I've completed all the materials, I've taught them how to drive and here they are to be tested. I would like you to evaluate them. What would DLD say today?

That's a really good question. I'm not sure their exact words, but my guess is that because it's not legal, you would, you have to mark something when you're signing right now. So I would think that question would come up sooner. So that at the moment you're signing for the application for the driver permit, you would make a statement of, we're going to do this or we're going to do this. I think later when you come back that they probably wouldn't ask you, did you do, did you do your school class or did you do this? They're gonna just see if you pass the test, but they're just asking you at the time. That's what's on the form. We're adding a third item to the form. But the materials would be the same materials that are currently available for parents.

Okay. So one more if I may, Mr. Chair. So in your opinion, do you think it would be legal for a parent to tell DLDI, I've got this child, I'm gonna teach them how to drive, get the materials? Is that something that, that the DLD would say? Yeah, go ahead. That's fine. Or would they say, Hmm, we're not sure about that?

Well, I've had some conversations with the DLD and they are very aware of this bill and so, and they're, you know, they, they basically said, well, we just need to add a third item on there and that wouldn't be any big deal, is basically what they told me. So I don't think that they would reject anyone if it was in code. Is that what you're asking? Did I understand that? I

Was asking about before, if the bill doesn't pass, what, what they would they just tell you, sorry, this kid has not met the requirements and we're not gonna test them or

Happens at the end when they come back in today, I think the parent would be forced to basically lie at the beginning and they'd have to say, I'm doing a third party, or I'm doing a, um, or I'm doing an A school and then not do it. And the child would have to come back and take a test, but they, but they'd be forced to lie. I just don't want them to have to lie. I'd like them to, I, you know, if they're gonna do it, let's let 'em say I'm gonna do it. Okay.

Thank you Mr. Chair. Okay.

Correct. They still have to prove that they can drive a car and that they can parallel park and, and they have to pass a written test. Same exact as everybody else. Yes. We would never change the bar. Okay. Yeah.

Thank you Mr. Chair. Um, couple of questions here. You said that DLD is aware, have they indicated their opinion or stance on this?

I think they're pretty neutral on this. Okay. Because they've given us some language changes and stuff like that and said, this would be a better way to phrase that. And I mean, I don't think they're gonna take a position on we love this or we hate this, but they've been very good to work with and understood what we were doing and, um, even, you know, said, Hey, we already have materials for parents and those could be used. And so, you know, they've been very helpful and good all, all the way along. Okay.

My next question is about those materials. Um, it looked like in the bill that it was a link you could click on or have access to. Are there physical materials? Is it digital, is it both? And are those in their current form ready to give to parents or do, do they need to have new websites established or, or can you enlighten me on that?

Right. According to USBE, so they have all of the materials, basically they would just have a certain page that is just a dedicated page that any school district would just link them to those things. Those digital materials already exist. They're already there. They already have them, they own them. It would just be the matter of making one page that people would go to and they'd probably have a login, you know, that they, so that it's not just shared broadly per se, but it's like this person's coming in or something. However they wanna set that up is up to them how they're gonna do that. Um, but also DLD does have manuals and things. 'cause as soon as you're not 18, you don't have to take driver's ed. You can just go study in a manual and come take a test. And so parents also would have access to all of those free resources as well, should they want those also.

Okay. And, uh, final question, and this might have been answered and I just didn't understand it, but if I were to check one of the two boxes now either the school's going to teach my kid or a private instructor is gonna teach my kid, is there not a follow up at the time of the test or when you're receiving it that shows either a certification from, from one of those two bodies that, that um, they did what they said that they were gonna do?

I'm gonna go on my own memory from all of my children that have come in, but I do not re remember ever having to say anything about what did happen. We just come in and take the test, take the test to pass the test, and if you pass the test, that's it. Yeah. Okay. So,

Alright. Mm-hmm. Thank you.

Thank you. Uh, so in, in driver's ed in school, uh, if somebody signs up for that, is there an extra fee for that or is it, uh, or, or do so included, so the parents have to pay a fee, right? Do they pay a fee for driver's ed at the school? Right.

Good question to number. And there's someone in the back that I think knows the answer, we may want have you come up Yeah.

So I have a 16-year-old and a

Yeah, so my name's just Tammy Flake and I'm just representing myself. So I have a 17-year-old, so he just got his license and then I have a 15-year-old, so he's prepping to get his, um, permit right now. So, and we are homeschooling, so we're not doing it through, um, the school. Um, so when you go in, so to get the permit, he has to take the writing test and then he passes and he gets a thing. We also have to say, okay, who are we taking the test through? Either the school, which it's paid through if you're at school, but because we're not going through school, we have to pay average $400 to do a private driving school where they get in a car with four other kids and they rotate taking turns while they do the homework and they get the whole test and all the things, 400 kids, $400. I have five kids, $2,000. So,

So the question was very expensive. So that's, it is somebody that is in school that goes to school, it's part of your schooling. They don't have to pay extra, right? No. Mm-hmm. So,

But it's $2,000, or sorry, $400 if you're paying on your

Own. Yeah, I understand that. Yes.

So, but you have, so it's under their social Hold on, hold on. Just so when they go to give it, it's under their social, they either pass or fail. And so when they go in to do the drivers, they can't do it the driver written test. And they can't continue on until they check back in with like a one school or independent school or whatever. And so it's all under their social, but it's only those two tests check back in with school or the independent driving school will submit the test that it's been done.

I am Hello Audrey Uri, um, Utah State Board of Education, the driver education specialist. I can help answer some of the questions that you guys have. Thanks. Um, first one is, um, how, when a student comes to the driver's licensing office, how do they know that they've completed driver's ed? Everybody who's a company or a driver's ed instructor certified in the state records the completions into the driver's education management system, which talks to the driver's licensing office and lets them know, so the person at the, the clerk or at the counter is aware that they have completed the driver's education requirements because the instructor puts that information into a system in the driver's licensing system. So that's how they know when they get to the counter if they've completed driver's ed. What about the cost of the driver's ed training? If you're a student and you do it through the school, do you pay an extra fee or does the school pay for for that? So the state funds driver's education through the public education system. So if anybody lives in that school district has access and availability, whether you're go to that high school, you're a private, you go to a private school, you're homeschooled. Anyone has the ability or the access to take driver's education at the high school. Um, there is usually there's a minimal fee or zero fee, and if you, um, you can apply for fee waivers to take it for free. So the cost is very minimal or free to take it through the high school.

Okay, thank you. Um,

I can answer one more question if you'd like me. Sure. Um, one of the other questions was about the curriculum. Uh, we do not currently have parent taught curriculum available. We would have, it would have to be something that we would have to figure out or come up with, um, whether it was online or physical materials. We do not currently have that.

Oh, that's good to know. Okay. Okay. Uh, so just continuing on, uh, representative on, on the fiscal note. I'm surprised. I mean, if there's gonna be, um, well, I'm, I'm rethinking this a little bit, so I was just wondering if there would be enough people that were gonna do it on their own, that they wouldn't do it through the school, then that would save the school money, but there's no reason for them not to do it through the school if it's paid for by the school. So anyway, so that, that just helped me understand question the policy. That a question. Okay. No, I think I, I think I've got it. Thank you. Okay.

I have a question for RA if I may. Go ahead. So, um, on every motor vehicle registration rule, there's a $2 and 50 cent driver education fee that is collected and given to the State Board of Education. Can you just tell us what that money is used for?

Um, the funding from that, from that, um, account goes to help fund the driver's education programs at the high school. So the funding that you were just asking about on how do, how do students come take driver's ed at the high schools? That funding covers those students to take driver's ed at the high school. So that pays for the instructors and the materials and things. That's, that's how those are paid for?

Correct. Okay, great. Thank you Mr. Chair.

So if I may, um, in conversations with USBE and DLD, I was told that there is, there are already parent resources that are available and that DLD already has a book that is available. So I know that there is a book, a manual for driver's ed instructors through USBE, that's $300 per book. However, that book would go into more like, here's how you lay out the class in the school setting. But we're not at, we're not asking for that. So that of course, is not available to parents, but what I was told was that there are already online things and stuff like that because students are already taking it online through the school. So there are already videos and modules, um, that can be made available to the parents. So there might be a little bit of a, a, a difference of, of an angle looking at that. But with my meetings with them and when we were examining for the fiscal note and stuff, that was, um, understood.

Correct. That's the difference. And, and where the, um, where A DLD does have already a whole manual of all of it that can be available to anyone. And then there's those parent resources that's adequate for the parents, especially if they're already drivers and have a good record. And they also do that zero fatalities and they're already going to be doing those 40 hours with their students.

Thank Thank you Mr. Chair. Um, I'd address this to Audra, I think, um, do you agree that the parent resources that are available as described by the sponsor are adequate knowing what you know?

So there's only two other states that do parent taught driver's education. And the reason why they Uintah parent taught was 'cause of lack of access to driver's ed. They just didn't have driver's education available in those states. And they spec specifically created parent taught driver's education curriculum materials. The materials that we have are teacher led, so we could hand somebody a student textbook, but it's teacher led education training. And the lesson plan books that we have, or the online education we have are all teacher led. So it's not to, and those teachers go through 260 hours of training to be a driver's education instructor. So, and they're also teachers. So in my my thinking, they're, they're not parent taught led materials and they would not be something that you could just hand a parent and they would know what to do with it. It's not a parent taught material curriculum. We would have to create that.

Thank you. Audra, Just as a follow up question. Sorry, representative, does your, does your bill require a new set of curriculum to be created? No. Or does it just say, just leverage the existing resources so long as you pass the test? The test is, that's right. That's sufficient to say that you know how to drive and if you can pass it and you hit the hours, you're good. And here's the resources. Use those.

Exactly. Exactly. That's exactly, it's not asking USBE to create any other, um, any other curriculums or anything like that. We're just gonna leverage what we have.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Uh, I'm just kind of curious if anybody knows, is, is drivers that available through any of our online high school programs and maybe Audra is saying yes. Could you just speak to that briefly? Audra, How, how does that work for online high school?

So all of our high schools have the ability to take it in person inside the school day, outside the school day, or in person or in blended models. Um, and our online high schools also offer driver's education. They just do the behind the wheel portion back of their home school or with a private company.

Okay. Thank you.

Okay. Can you guys hear me? Yep, go ahead. Okay. Chair and members of the committee, my name is Melissa Erickson. I am a Utah parent and a member of U Hope, which stands for the Utah Home Education Organizations for Parental Empowerment Coalition. I'm here to support House Bill 4 64. At its core, this bill protects parent choice and equal access. It ensures families are not forced into a single delivery system for driver education and are not pushed into costly private options simply because their schedule or circumstances don't fit the traditional model. For many families, the financial impact is real. Private driver education can cost hundreds of dollars per student and additional less increase that burden. This bill reduces financial pressure without lowering safety expectations. Parents are already primary driving mentors for their teens house. Bill 4 64 simply provides a clear and consistent statewide pathway that respects that reality while maintaining standards. This is about flexibility, fairness, and trust in parents. And so you hope supports House Bill 4 64 and respectfully, respectfully asks for your yes vote. Thank you.

Um, hello. Thank you chairman and committee members for letting us speak on this matter. My name is Megan Wade and I'm a, a state certified driving instructor for Eco Driving Utah, a private company, um, in Salt Lake. Uh, the vast majority of our students are teenage drivers that are in only six hours of driving. Vastly improve their driving skills. Um, between me and my other fellow instructors, most of them do come into our lessons with some level of driving knowledge, um, that they learned from studying for their permit test or from the initial driving experiences with their parents. But I also have many students that have barely driven two hours on the road before taking a lesson with me. And a hundred percent of the lessons I provide, there's always something new for them to learn and or misconceptions about traffic laws and driving maneuvers that I am, um, needing to correct before they can be able to pass the road test. Um, this includes changing lanes, checking your blind spots, and dutifully falling the speed limits. I do my best to make the experience positive for them emotionally and have found ways to teach the required skills and additional defensive and courteous driving techniques that will make our road safe. Um, the biggest thing that I teach is confidence and caution and a healthy balance of both, um, which directly informs the trust of their own driving skills as well as other drivers on the road. We already have a problem

Sorry. 10 seconds. Thank you. Thank you. I urge you all to please vote no on this bill.

Good afternoon. My name is Bethany Wolf and I live in Davis County. I'm asking you to vote yes on house Bill 4 64. And I would love to tell you why I'm 15 years old and I'm homeschooled. I'm in 10th grade and I have been looking forward to getting my driver's license when I turned 16, but I have not been looking forward to saving up four or $500. First, you see my friends that attend the local high school get the free driver's ed course, but as a homeschooled students, I have to pay around four or $500 for the course to do it privately. Four or $500 is a lot of money that I need to save. I would love it if my parents could teach me to drive. My mom already teaches me so many things, so why not driving to, I will still have to take the test at the DLD so that I can demonstrate that I will be a safe driver. I ask that you vote yes on house Bill 4 64. So parents can teach their own kids to be safe, responsible drivers. Thank you.

Thank you. My name's Kanosh Wade and I, uh, own and operate a small driver's ed business in Sandy. Um, I'd like to share a few things from my perspective as a driver's ed instructor and, uh, I'm also certified to, um, to teach a course that certifies other instructors, uh, when teens come to us for their six hours of driving. Most have already practiced with parents and can drive in simple situations, but almost all need to be taught safe signaling, blind spot checks, safe following distance, and how to change lanes in traffic. In my experience, very few parents are equipped to teach these advanced driving skills. They are many years removed from their own training and their cars don't have passenger breaks or extra mirrors to help instructors see into blind spots. So they generally just avoid taking their teenagers into more dangerous, more complicated driving situations. I have also heard from many families that they don't actually even do the 40 hours that are required now. They just sign the form at the DALD saying that they do. Um, we, that that's why the six hours within instructor are so important in my mind. Uh, we are able to assess and patch any holes in the training that was begun by parents and then we can help students be safe in more complex, dangerous driving scenarios. Uh, this bill would no doubt be a convenience to parents, but as the Nebraska study I emailed you about, uh, last week, found students who prepare only with parents are significantly more likely to be in accidents that involve injuries and fatalities. Thank you.

Yeah, thank you. Uh, just a question. So your, um, uh, when you do the instructions and, and your students go in to take the test, you feel like the test is thorough enough to to judge whether they've, uh, had a sufficient background in driving and, and the uh, the written test?

That's a great question. The test test, very specific things. A test. Can you turn at intersections? Can you change lanes? Can you do a parallel park and a three point turn and a U-turn? Things like that. So yes, on that level it shows us and it's, it's pretty clear early on if they have done the 40 hours with parents or not. Um, but I would say the test does not tell me whether that they're able to drive with lots of other cars around them because the test is very short and sometimes we have traffic that we're changing lanes in and sometimes they get lucky and we just don't. Um, so I would say that, that yes, it provides a baseline,

Hi, I am Marianne Wilkinson. I'm the president of a one driving school and I have 32 years of driver's ed experience. Um, and I'm grateful that, um, the Nebraska study was brought up because it did show that those did, that did private. I mean, parent taught at home, had higher risk of accidents. Um, and the UDOT has made a statement as well regarding this, that they're concerned about, um, the safety and how will parents implement the safety protocols that a commercial driving school can provide. Um, we have signage, we have breaks, we have rear vision mirrors. All of these things are life saving. I have been in situations where I'm teaching a student and there is a delay when an instructor says we need to do this, or they identify a situation that we need to respond to. There is a delay between speaking it, the driver receiving it, and then performing that maneuver. And so therefore the break saves lives. So when I all of a sudden see an emergency situation, even though I might speak it, I'm going to react first and put on my break and then I will do my teaching minutes after that time. I have had times when kids freeze when there is an emergency situation and they think that they're stepping on the gas and they, I mean the brake and they floor it on the gas and it is the safety of the teacher that has stopped that car. Now I have some other very important information to share if I may. Okay,

you. So, um, sorry, I have to just get my notes 'cause I'm skipping to save us some time. A one driving school does have a copy of this parent resource manual. We use it to give to our parents if they want information on how to drive that says, Hey, step one, drive around your neighborhood. Step two, try these things. This is not a teaching curriculum. This is a supportive curriculum for driving schools to give to their their customers. We use that, um, the road test, it was developed so that in mind that the students have already completed driver's education in a commercial driving school. So therefore the road test is only within a two to three mile radius of a facility and it does not show that the student can make wise decisions, um, and respond to heavy traffic, which the state of Utah is significantly growing in population. Then. Um,

Okay. Re re. So I just want to know, um, who's going to be responsible for, um, for this? So if we pass this bill, who's responsible for, you know, you're gonna be responsible for enabling an unsafe driving road culture on our roads, it's going to be unsafe. Is the high school going to take responsibility or the DLD for, um, a poor outcome? If there's an accident, who's gonna be sued for that? Who's gonna be, is the parent going to be held responsible if there's a death, um, when they're teaching their child? 'cause they couldn't stop? There's So many things that need to still be discussed on this and we need to spend way more time talking about these safety measures.

Hi, I am Tammy Flake. I'm just representing myself as a parent. Um, just to piggyback off of her last point about who is responsible, my children are my responsibility, and this is only asking for another choice. I'm not saying that any of the driving schools are bad, we are just asking that maybe me and my husband are a good choice to choose to put our child behind a wheel because what if an accident happens that school is not in charge? We are responsible for that child for any accident. This adds another line to make sure that if this child is ready, we as parents are responsible to put them behind that wheel. And I take that very seriously and this just adds another choice to our parenting here in the state of Utah. And if others want to continue with school or to privatize the learning because they don't agree, that's also good too. Thank you.

Thank you. Can you guys hear me okay?

Oh, you know what? Let me see if I can throw on the video. One moment.

Is it working? Uh, the camera's off. Oh, what about now? There We go. Okay. Hi, my name is Dr. Lisa McConnell. I'm here representing Dave's Driving School and all of the public companies or private companies. Framing this proposal is a question of parent choice. Love or financial access obscures the central issue. Public roadway governance is a safety mandate. A driver's error does not remain within one household. It reverberates across every vehicle sharing the lane drivers ages 16 to 19 Experience crash rates per mile driven nearly four times higher than adults. The elevated risk requires enforceable minimum safeguards designed to protect the public at large. Utah's six hour dual control requirement with a certified instructor establishes a professional safety floor. Certified instructors are licensed and regulated by the driver's license division. They're trained to diagnose hazard perception failures, unsafe following distance, improper gap selection, and defensive positioning errors in real time. A second break provides immediate intervention when a novice misjudges a left turn or hesitates in oncoming traffic. Parents are not licensed, regulated, or evaluated by the DLD delivered that standardized instruction. Research has demonstrated that many parents do not complete the full recommended supervised hours and often overestimate readiness peer reviewed evidence examining more than 100,000 teens. May I have an additional 30 seconds please.

Uh, this is safety related peer evidence examining more than 150,000 teens found lower crash violation rates among those completing formal driver's education compared to certification logs alone. Cost should not define this discussion. $400 represents a modest investment when measured against the economic and human cost of a single injury collision, hospitalization, litigation, insurance premiums, lost wages, and lifelong trauma far exceed the price of professional instruction online coursework at a

please. Thank you. You I just have A closing statement then.

Hey, my husband talks about having a near death experience. Daily legislative responsibility requires prioritizing safety over convenience. And it's because every family in Utah deserves safety and a minimum standard on the road. Thank you.

Thank you. Uh, good afternoon. My name is Amy Oswald and I'm a Utah parent and I'm here in support of HB 4 64. I myself actually lived in a state that allowed driving to be taught by parents. And I got to the point just a few months shy of being able to get my driver's license and we were able to move to Utah. And so even though I went through the entire process of being able to be taught by my dad, I had to take driver's ed here, which in all honesty was pretty much the same thing my dad taught me. I came here knowing how to drive, but I still had to take driver's ed and everything that I was taught was exactly what my dad taught me. And in all honesty, as I talked with him about it, he said, because I knew that you were so important to me and I wanted to make sure you knew how to drive. He took that responsibility to heart. I think those people who would have this as an option and would use it would understand this is their child's life. They do not want to put their child in a situation that would call for them to be hurt in any way. And I think that as they do that they would understand that this is something that is of top priority. And I thank you for your time. Thank you.

Hello, Mike Deaver. I'm the local lobbyist for AAA Insurance, Utah. AAA's been serving Utah since 1903 and we have over 260,000 members here. While HB 4 64 aims to involve parents in licensing, which is good, it risks the safety of our most vulnerable road users. Novice drivers, parents hire and use professionals to teach swimming, soccer, singing, and even academics. We believe that should work for the most dangerous thing we can put a child behind. And that's a vehicle. Research shows that removing professional oversight leads to significantly adverse safety outcomes. To follow up on the study and the numbers, and I wanna read this so we're very accurate. Teens who complete formal driving training have a 70% lower odds of a severe crash in the first year. Furthermore, a study of 150,000 drivers found those without professional education were 24% more likely to be involved in a fatal or injury causing crash, and 75% more likely to receive traffic tickets. Both of those, of course, lead to families higher premium rates. Parents are essential for practice, but they are not trained experts. They may know they may unknowingly pass an outdated habit or like dual controlled vehicles, which we strongly believe in, which provide critical safety net by allowing an instructor to intervene. Okay. We would, we would urge this committee to oppose or send this to a study. Thank you.

I I've got a question. Yes, sir. Isn't though the implication of your comments that our test just isn't very good? Because if you can pass the test, doesn't that suggest that you can drive and you can do so safely?

The, uh, this Nebraska University of Nebraska study does point out that those who took professional training had a much higher rate of passage of that test.

But I don't care about the rate of passage. If, if the homeschool person wants to have to take the test 10 times, that's their prerogative. I just care that the person who gets on the road can do it safely. And if we have a test that's uniform and you've gotta pass the test, and we think that test demonstrates that the person can safely drive on our roads, why do I care how they get to that test?

Passing the test is one thing. Uh, actual driving is another. So the test, as far as I know right, has several mechanisms that they must pass, uh, to, to matriculate through it. But actually being on the road and being on the freeway and making turns and those type of things is much, much different. It's the difference between practice in a game and actually being in the game in a real scenario. That's where we think the safety and the risk assessment is. Um, if, if that answers your question.

Yeah. And I'll just, it seems though that the issue is our test then, because if, if the test is there to demonstrate that they can safely drive and they pass the test, then why do we, why do we care? Perhaps it's safer to go through the formal course, but what that would suggest to me is that the test isn't very good and we should change the test anyways.

Thank you. I I'm like the chair. I'm, I'm trying to parse out what is the important part of this. So as I understand it, parents today can do online home study for the classroom instruction part. The part of the experience that is in the car with a professional teaching you is is three hours and then there are observation hours, there's three hours of observation during that part, and then there's the 40 hours with your parents. So which, which part of that do you think is making the difference of those of those areas?

You're asking me specifically

Or? Yeah. Yeah. You're the only one. You're the only one that has the mic. So

I think it's all collective. Um, but I do think when you talk about a professional training, someone to drive those extra hours, whether it's in our school driver ed system or whether it's a professional outside, um, has more professional time on the road teaching a child, particularly a teenager who's not fully mentally developed Right. On the nuances of driving. What we also don't know personally is can the parent actually verify that they have had the time in the car with the child? So if they can pass the test and tell driver's licensing that yes, we've done this as opposed to the school or a professional saying, yes, we've certified that we have so many hours on the road. It's, it's like anything else. The more practice is gonna lead to better outcomes,

But the only time that they're on the road with a professional is the three hours when they're being observed by the professional. 'cause it's a six hour total, three hours of driving at three hours of observation.

Right. Right. That's as I understand it, but that's dedicated time with a professional. Are you talking about

For drivers. I'm not, I'm not asking you ma'am. I'm sorry. Um, so that's, that's, that's my question. Thank you.

Hello. I am Brian Moss. I'm with a one driving school. I've been a driving instructor for over 30 years. And, uh, so more than half of my life I've dedicated to, to safety and, uh, and the, and, uh, the cause of, of, um, believing in driver education. I just want to clarify one thing. In Utah, the requirement through the private school is six hours, not three. The observation is no longer a requirement, it's optional and we encourage it, but it's, it's six hours, so we have to take 'em out 3, 2, 3, 2 hour sessions. Also, we have to submit that information daily as it happens to the state through the DEM system, uh, which stands for Driver Education Management System. It's tracked. If we come up a minute short, the state will not allow that person to, uh, to take a road test and, uh, and potentially get their license. I just want to add to what's been said. Um, we as driving schools are in vehicles that have clearly marked vehicles student driver on all four sides. They have to be a certain size. Uh, we have the brake on our side, we have the mirror. The brake has, I can personally testify to the fact that the brake has per, has saved my life. I can give you one quick example if I might. And this is where I'll end driving on Redwood Road, taking a left turn at a solid green light with a student, um, who had seemed to be doing well. Seemed like they were gonna be able to make this turn safely. It was a solid green light. Obviously they need to yield, they started to go. A semi-truck probably coming 60 miles an hour would have killed me had I not been able to use the brake. This is absolutely, I'm confident and that this is true. Okay.

Hi, I am Corinne Condor and I am representing myself. I'm a parent of two young adults who are drivers. And I just wanted to say that I feel like this is a public safety issue. I support parents being able to educate their kids at home or however they want to, and that's great. But I feel like as this public safety issue, this affects all of us on the roads. And if we have drivers that are trained by trained driver's, ed teachers that will help us have safer roads and benefit all of us.

Okay. Thank you. Uh, this is a question for Representative Peck. Sorry. Uh, thank you. So it looks to me like a lot of the, the concern is the cost of the program, and tell me what you think of this, but to me, you know, where you've got parents that are homeschooling, they're paying taxes into the state too for education where they don't get that benefit. I'm wondering if the, uh, if you've talked to the schools about saying, can you provide driver's ed just like you do other students, uh, for homeschoolers who want to and not charge the fee? Is that something that you've approached 'em about?

Yes, if I may. Um, I have not had that conversation with each parent in particular, but I will say that people choose to homeschool not just because of the, or choose to. They, they want this not just because of the cost, and they don't choose to homeschool, um, just because they don't or do want a certain class. So, I mean, there's a lot of different reasons that people homeschool, but lots of times it's because there's a certain environment that they want their child to learn in, and that environment is not the same environment that's at the public school. And so even though they may be, could go there, um, that's not necessarily the environment that they're wanting for their child. And so, I'm not sure.

My question is, yeah, for those who do want to, would the schools pay that fee and just let them do it? Uh, let them do it without co, without charging a fee because they're in-state taxpayers?

Do you know? I'm not sure because, um, I was informed that on a school website that for one school it, it was saying that it, there was $150 fee. I know that we heard that there might be a fee, it could be a waived fee. It could be. So it probably could be free for them, but whether that actually fits their family or not is really the thing. Right.

That's two different issues. Yeah. Right.

Yeah. And whether, I mean, I think in, in essence, we're kind of trying to decide too, um, do parents really have jurisdiction over this? Like, should they be allowed to teach their children this? If they can teach 'em to do other things like mow a lawn and cut with knives and all kinds of other things, you know?

I, I was gonna respond to the question from, from, from, uh, chair Christofferson. 'cause I made, while we've been sitting here, I've made three calls to neighbors asking them about their experience with the cost. One is on, uh, uses the, uh, uses the HOPE scholarship and they've been to our local high school who told them that they are not allowed to take, to take the class, that they won't allow them to do this. That would happen with for sure, with the can,

Thank you. Um, I move that we hold this bill and I'd like to speak to that.

Yeah. Um, when I heard of this bill, I was really open to the idea I wanted to hear all sides. Um, I am actually the perfect candidate for this bill. I have two children who have recently, they're of driving age. I have a daughter right now who is, um, in, she, she has her learner's permit. She's a September birthday, but she does not qualify for, um, summer driver's Ed. So what that means is that she either has to wait for school to start and do driver's ed the first semester, and she won't get her driver's license until December, or she'll go to a private program. My son did the same thing. Um, so I will elect probably to send her to the private program. Um, well, I have no doubt that there are parents who are going to do a wonderful job at teaching their children. I also know that there are many parents out there and many whom I know who don't fulfill the 40 hour work, 40 hours because it's not convenient. But they want their children to get their driver's licenses as soon as possible because it's more convenient for them. And I think those children do probably pose a public safety risk. And while I completely support homeschooling and I want people to have that choice, I do feel that probably when it comes to public safety and putting a child on the road, it's best that we have another check in the system. I think that six hours of drive time is probably critical to ensuring that children learn how to drive safely with another trained and licensed professional adult, whether it's through school or through driving program. I think there are ways that through homeschool you can get that for free. Um, and if there are roadblocks there, I think that's something that we should be addressing. Um, but I am concerned for the public safety if we were to turn over to all parents. Although, like I said, I doubt there are parents there. I have no doubt there are parents who do a great job, but I don't think we can, um, open this up completely, um, to that. And for that reason, I think we should hold the bill for now and continue the conversation.

Yeah, I, I really obviously don't want the bill to be held because it's not sounding like it's being held with an emphasis in let's talk about it and bring it back. It's sort of sounding like, let's just hold it to hold it and I would like to see this bill, you know, move forward. Obviously, I think that if parents are not doing their 40 hours currently, they're not already being the teachers of their children. And that's gonna happen regardless of whether we pass this bill or not. So, um, I mean, if people want to make other motions, I would be open to other motions. But I'm at the mercy of the committee, obviously.

Thank, thank you. And thanks for the presentation. And, and I understand I, you know, I get these conversations, I understand the safety concerns, but I will tell you in Cash County where I live, there is no private offering and there hasn't been for a while. And, and I, and I just checked just 10 minutes ago to double check to see if, if maybe somebody is, is teaching it. There is no, no public offer or private offering. The high schools where my end of the valley, uh, where the children meet or go to school, they will not allow them to come and take, to come a day to do this. So we give them one option, and that is to lie. If they wanna homeschool their children, they have to, that that is their only option is to say, uh, that they, they Uintah through some private school. But, but apparently that can't happen either because, because they're not gonna have access to the system. So I, I, I think we're in a bad spot and, and I don't see other, any other option. But, but, uh, but to have this, I I would further say it, it, it is true we could hire out, you know, coaches to teach swimming and, and how to sing, how to do things that we, that, that, that our safety, that our safety, uh, issues. But we also give parents the choice and, and to just say, well, this, I mean, I can't, I've been trying to rack my mind. What else do we not allow a parent to do? 'cause we let 'em, we let 'em teach, let 'em teach swimming, we let 'em do it, but not this single item. So I don't understand it. So I'm, I'm gonna vote against the hold. I, I think, I think where we've landed on this first substitute is works, so thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am opposed to the motion to hold. I agree with everything that, uh, Representative Peterson said. The six hours is all they're getting from a dr, a driving instructor anyway. And I know my kids all did the 40 hours and they learned a lot more from us than they did from the driving instructors. I think that parents should be able to make these decisions and teach their children. They're not incapable of reading a manual.

Thank you. So I, wow. Okay. So there are a lot of things that are not clear in my mind. Um, so there is a 30 hour instructional component. I have no reason to believe that a parent can't teach it. There are online modules that don't even involve an instructor. You can get it through online high school. There are, there are plenty of ways that those materials could be available to a parent to teach their child for free the workbook or classroom. I mean, I've looked online, people call it different things, but one company proudly says that this is a workbook exercise. It should take you no longer than 30 hours to complete and pass the modules in this workbook. Apparently there are no humans involved in teaching of that. So why can't we make that available as it is to a student for free? Then there's this part of the end, which is the 40 hours of parent supervised, where we're already doing the parent supervised. So really this question, it comes down to the six hours in the middle. Um, maybe I'm just biased. I remember, I remember vividly my three hours of driver education training. One hour of that in, uh, included the driver ed teacher saying, okay, let's go out and get on I 84. And I said, okay. We got on I four. And he said, okay, head east. 30 minutes later he said, get off, turn around and head back. That was one of my three hours of driver's education training, which is 30. I mean, and of course it's important that you know how to drive on a freeway, but it was completely empty both ways. So I was just in an hour going 70 miles an hour with a guy who was reading a book, essentially. I mean, like, I don't know what he was doing over there 'cause I was just looking at the road, but scared to death. So that's the part that really gives me pause. I see no reason why you bill couldn't come back and say, and if I think it actually already exists, that you need to, we need to make available that 30 hour workbook part free to parents, uh, to supervise that with their kids. And then if we've got the backend, it's the six hours in the middle that I'm, I'm just, it gives me a little bit of pause because there's so much variation in our state. I mean, kids in my neighborhood, I can see that that's a little bit sketchy. The roads, you know, people, students, I live in student land and they don't all drive safe. And you know, now you've got a a 16 or a 15-year-old in a car with an adult and yeah, bad things could happen. I could see that. But I'm, I'm just trying to figure out how can we, and maybe we could figure out how to solve that component, but it also seems like that it shouldn't be that expensive if we can solve the other parts for free and that, that, uh, at some point there is an independent person that gets in the car with your kid for three hours just to make sure that you're teaching them the right things. I, I'm kind of, I don't know. It's, it's, it's tough. But I I do think that if we, if we do hold this, we could probably figure out some of these important components and get, get this ball moved really far down the road.

Yeah. Thank you. This conversation to me has me no more excited or or against this bill as it does helping me realize that we should probably be looking as soon as we can at taking action on the insufficiency of the test. And the idea that everybody should be able to take this through the school district, uh, for free, uh, at some point. And I know that's not this bill, but, um, I would be curious to know if you wanted to try to throw this into your bill.

I am happy to look at any options that would make drivers trading more accessible, less expensive and, and more workable for families. Absolutely. So, I mean, and if we wanted to put something about the test in there, I don't, I don't know what that would look like, but I'd be happy to discuss it. Yeah,

It may be, sorry, Go ahead. It, it may be legislation for another bill, but, um, I feel like I've learned a lot today and, and I appreciated the analogy of maybe you need both. I was thinking, you know, you can teach your kid to play, uh, basketball by having him shoot baskets and learn layups and dribbling, but it's not the same as playing in a game. And right now it sounds like we've got a, a test that, that just tests whether they can do the mechanics of it without actually putting them into the game to see if They're game ready. So.

Thank you. I have a substitute motion to adopt the second sub.

Uh, I, I think it makes the bill much better and, uh, I think, I think we should get that done.

Uh, if, if that makes everyone feel more comfortable. Um, so we're addressing the correct bill that I am open to that,

That is the sub that I would want and the, the DLD has put their finishing touches on, so thank you.

Yeah, I move that we pass out favorably. Uh, second sub, I gotta get my glasses on here. Uh, second sub, uh, 4 62 HB 4 62. 4 64. 4 64. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, it's been a good discussion. It seems like, uh, there's not really a lot of good reasons, uh, not to have the parents do this with the resources they have. I think if there's any, uh, weakness that's in the test. So I, I just feel like we gotta give that option to the parents.

Is this my sum or is this my, just what I think about the motion.

The motion. I appreciate it. I think that this bill is going to actually bring a lot to the conversation for parents with their children. I think we've heard that we have people in places in the state where they don't have driving schools and we teach our children all kinds of things. And I also know that when my children were in a driving school that has been actually mentioned here today, um, that they were told by their driving instructor, you know, when you, when you get drunk one time and, and don't tell me because you're from Utah that you're not gonna drink 'cause you all drink and you all get drunk. And when you get drunk one time, da da da. And my child came home and said, mom, my driver's teacher at that school told me that I would drink. And that was really awful that they would say that about me. And I thought to myself, you know, I probably would've handled that situation as their parent talking about drinking and driving a lot differently. And I feel like, um, that parents do know what their children need and they care about their lives and other people's lives and their futures and their driving records more than anyone. And no driving school or driver's ed teacher is ever called when a young person dies on the road or has an accident. It's the parents that are called and they know it. And I think we need to give them that responsibility that if they want it, and many won't, but if some do, they teach them how to shoot guns, they teach them everything. Let's let them teach their children to drive.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, I guess I'm, I'm motioning to hold 'cause I'm confused with this whole conversation that we've been having. I feel like I need more information. I can't support the bill as it is, so I'm motioning to substitute to hold it. 'cause I think there, there's a lot of conversations going on and I'm lost.

Yeah. I'm not saying I'm opposed to the bill, but I feel like there's about six conversations going on here and I don't feel comfortable sending it to the floor.

Um, I, I won't repeat what I said before, but I would obviously like to have it passed out. I feel like people need this in certain places in the state especially. Um, and the, the parents want this and it would help in so many ways.

Yeah, I think, I think we ought to move this forward. I think that, uh, sponsors made a good case to have their, have parents, uh, work with their kids and I think there are plenty of resources online to make that happen.

Yeah, I think I am in support of the motion to hold. As I stated earlier, I think that there have been some good suggestions from Representative Peterson, Representative Thurston on things that we can do to improve the bill. Um, I think there are some questions and some out outstanding issues that we could probably address to, uh, help alleviate everyone's concerns and make it a really good bill. Um, uh, representative Oakland had a great suggestion, so I would be in favor of holding.

Thank you Mr. Chair. I so appreciate all of the engagement from everyone on this, from members of the committee, from people in the public, from, uh, the DLD, from USBE. They have been incredibly supportive saying, Hey, we wanna help you do the very best with this. What can we give you? What can we offer? How can we make this work? And so we really have found ourselves in this third sub at a really good place. Um, before I get into a few of the nuts and bolts in the third sub, um, I'm not going to recap all of the testimony that was shared before. 'cause I think pretty much everybody who was here, who is here except for maybe one of the committee members was here for that testimony. And, um, I'll just say that this is going to remove a huge barrier for a lot of families who are trying to help their children be able to learn to drive and not have to pay a lot of money and not have to drive far distances to get to driver's training and to be able to do it in a way that's gonna match their family schedule or what their family needs. So the total minors for the state of Utah, this is data according to the DLD, the total number of minors, 18 years and younger that get their driver's licenses in the state. Um, as of last year, 2025, the number was 49,285 young people under the age of 1830 6,866 of those 49,000 get their drivers training at the local public schools. So that is the gross majority. And I don't anticipate that that number is going to really change too much. It would probably, um, be maybe a tiny bit, but not much there. Um, the third party number I do anticipate could change a little bit. So the third party number for 2025 was 12,419 miners. Now, of course, third, third party vendors serve all ages, not just minors, but that's just of minors that would've taken their driver's training through a third party. Those numbers are up since 2020. So in 2020 the number of minors that Uintah a third party was 9,529 minors. So you see that that number is growing that are going to third parties because it's up 3000. Um, minors going to third parties just in the last five years. And so the new version of this bill, substitute three, does multiple things. So we, when we talked last time, there was definitely a feeling of how are we going to give the parents the support that they need to make sure that this training is done really well. So USBE and DLD just really stepped up. We also wanted to have some accountability measures put in to make sure that the barrier of entry for this parent led driver's training wasn't so easy that lazy parents would feel like that that's the way to go. I still think, not that I ever want to call any parents, just lazy, but we all know there might be a few out there. Um, I still think that lazy parents are probably gonna wanna go the public school track because that's gonna be the easiest sign the child up and the school just does it. And that's the super easy, um, way for them to go. But for these other parents that doesn't fit, they'll do a little bit more work. And this is what's been designed. So this is how it plays out. They go into the DLD in order to get their child the learner's permit, the child takes the learner's permit exam, which they would've had to study for with the DLD booklet ahead of time. So then they go in, they take the exam, they fill out the application on the application according to this legislation. Now instead of two choices, they will have three choices we are adding for how they are going to do their driver's training. We are adding the third choice of parent led driver's education training. Then once they click that, that that's their option that they wanna do, then what will happen is the DLD will say, okay, here is how you contact the USBE and the LEAs for getting the driver's training information that you need in order to do this training with your child. So then USBE is providing the entire online driver's training, which is a 30 hour 0.5 credit class training that students are currently taking. Right now, if they're doing online drivers training in their homes, they are going to provide that entire 30 hour training for the parents and the students. So they will have the complete training, but they will also, the DLD will also then give the parents a log. So you'll see in the bill it says that we're giving the DLD rulemaking authority for how to give the log and how to scan the log back in when they get it back from the parents. This log will cover that six hours of that driving instruction training that we had so much discussion about in the last committee. So they will need to put the date and what they learned or what they did in that driver training section. They'll have to also complete the zero fatalities, um, training as well, which can be in person or virtual through the DLD. Those things will need to be turned back into the DLD at the time that they come in for that student's actual exam. That they will take the test, the driving test and the written test from the DLD, they'll turn in their log, it will get scanned and be put into the file that follows that particular driver around. So we will know that that was how they did their driver's training. So they have a lot more to do. Those parents, this is not going to be a light lift for them. They have to, if they wanna do this, then they're going to have to jump through all of these hoops. They're gonna have to turn stuff in. If they come into the DLD and they don't have their log, then they're gonna get turned away and they're gonna have to go back out and redo stuff. So, um, I do think that this is a great way to give them all the training that they need. Um, plus they're gonna get that really special hands-on training from the parent child, which I hope is gonna be good for that parent child relationship. You know, during the ages of like 14, 15, 16, sometimes the parent child bond gets a little bit fractured. What a great project for parents and children to work on together. And I think I'll just, um, before we go to questions, leave you just to with one other thought. Um, and that is, and this was brought up in the last committee, but I would just like to reiterate that. And that is that we train our children on so many things. We teach them how to work with knives in the kitchen, how to, um, start fires, how to, um, cook things, how to shoot guns. Some of us who love the second amendment, we teach them how to, um, we teach them how to mow the lawn and sharpen knives. There's just so many things that we do. We also can teach our children so many academic things. And interestingly enough, we're probably the very most qualified because we do it every day to teach our children to drive some of those other things that we might teach our children like chemistry or how to chop wood. Maybe we don't do it every day and we're slightly learning it ourselves, but when it comes to driving, the parents have been doing that for a long time. And so that's what we're asking is that those parents can be given that opportunity to teach their children when that's the circumstance that's best fitting for their family. And with that, I'm open to any questions.

Thank you. Uh, thank you Mr. Chair and thank you to the sponsor. She was responsive to my concerns and I appreciate the work that she's put in. So, um, yeah, one of my concerns was that six hours of drive time and ensuring that the students get that and that parents are accountable for that. So they're going to have the log, um, given to them by DLD and then they bring it in back to the DLD with them. Um, how does this, how does it compare to what we have now with the systems, um, that driver schools are using now and that the drivers ed schools are using now, just to ensure that we're getting that drive time? This is a little bit redundant 'cause I think you kind of cut. Sure. But I just wanna be really, really confident.

Sure, thank you. So basically they just submit that a person is done with their training. Um, I don't, now I could be wrong on this just because I didn't ask that specific question, but from what I understand from conversation is that they just go into the system and they say, this child is done with, you know, whatever the qualifications are, but I don't think that they log, they came this day and we did these things in the driver training. I think the parents are gonna actually be logging even more things in that log that they have to turn into the DLD than even the independent driving companies would have to do.

Thank you so much. And thank you. This has probably been our most popular bill in our email box. So, Um, I'm sorry. We've learned a lot. Um, and I just wanna, I wanna emphasize, 'cause I think there's this, there's this idea of, you know, when you're teaching your child at home that you're learning how to do use knives and all these other things. I was a public school kid up until high school and I learned all those things for my dad with or without him always being at home because he had to work. So, um, I think that's, it's kind of an unfair comparison because we learn those anyways. Um, whether our parents are home or not. And I think you have other values that you bring to your children and I just want to emphasize that. But I do have a question. I know there's a third sub online mm-hmm. And, um, there is no fiscal note at this point. Um, and with the DODs involvement in USBE, I'm assuming that there's gonna be a fiscal note that comes with that. Do you have any idea or response to that or what you think it may be?

Yeah. Um, so in the previous subs there wasn't a fiscal note. Um, still I anticipate that it's going to be the same or very minimal, um, just because there's, I mean there maybe potentially could be for scanning the log when it comes back in, but the DLD told me when we put this together, it's not gonna be hard to add another option for them. And they didn't sound like it would be difficult at all to, to hand out the log and to be able to bring it in. Because again, we're not talking about the gross majority of people here. It's the small major, the small minority that are gonna be doing this. Um, and then also, uh, USBE because that training is already taxpayer funded, um, is just offering that, that we can just use that.

Board chair. This is Audrey Uri from USBE, if you'd like me to answer the question.

Um, so the, the first question that was posed was, is there any type of information for when the students, um, other than just saying they're completed into the driver's licensing system? The answer to that is the driver's ed instructors are required to, um, actually do a log of the drive and score them as they're driving and as they progress through. So part of the code and the law requires the driver's ed, um, instructors to actually track their training and have specific information on it about how they were trained, how well they did, how they progressed, and as they're moving through the behind the wheel training of the course as well as the classroom course. And this is required because of the amount of liability with driver's education. So we have to keep those logs and that information and how they scored and how they did for a minimum of seven years, uh, for the lawsuits that come in if something happens 'cause of their driving behavior. So we do record those in our system. So that's what the answer to that question.

The fiscal note, we haven't had time to put it together yet. I actually just received it right before this to go through it. Um, if what, um, was said by Representative Peck that we would be providing a 30 hour online course, uh, that course that we have currently is $50 a student, if it's that online course that she's referring to.

The students pay for the $50 to take the online course we currently have.

Those questions? Uh, yeah. So I had conversations about this with, um, Elise Newie and there wasn't a cost that was mentioned to me when I had that conversation. She just said, we would like to give that, it it for this bill. And so I, uh, and, and she didn't act like there was any barrier there. And so we didn't ha she didn't act like it was gonna cost a lot of money. So that's why I said I didn't think that there was going to be a cost.

Uh, thank you Mr. Chair. And uh, thank you to Representative Peck because we've been working closely together with the driver license division, uh, to get this bill to a really good spot. You, uh, we just wanted to clarify.

Oh, yes, I am so sorry. My name is Hillary Kilner. I am the Deputy Commissioner, uh, for public safety over driver license. And there will be a small fiscal note as we as, uh, Representative Peck mentioned. It's just kind of the logistical programming. It's $10,000 for driver license, which essentially, um, would just be going to our partners with DTS to be able to incorporate the new addition of having that new option for parents, uh, to provide that log and kind of checking that in as part of the record system. But again, it's a, it's a very minimal fiscal note, um, that otherwise, um, that's just for the programing. Everything else we could probably take care of in-house.

Yes. Um, I, I wanna feel comfortable about the fiscal note, so I, for me, I think that clarified some questions and maybe not fully, but, um, I'm still kind of up in the air, so thank you.

Mr. Chair, can I ask a question for Hillary?

Uh, Hey Hillary. Hey, representative. Um, so have you, has, have, has your department looked at this in terms of, did, did you have any concerns about a parent's ability to conduct that six hours of in-car training if they're, if they're given the proper guidelines as to what's to be covered?

Our our stance for this bill is neutral. So, um, we're neither for or against it. We, as I mentioned, we've been working with Representative Peck on this and we have certain tools such as the handbook. And then, um, we have discussed certain tools from zero fatalities as for the additional 40 hours that allow you to track, uh, the, already we required 40 hours from parents. So it, in reality, we already have the trust in parents that they will be doing these things with their children, whether it's through, um, doing it through the high school or doing it through a third party, or in this case doing it with their parent themselves.

Great. Thank you so much. All right.

Uh, hello Ted Folson and, uh, I happen to be the, uh, provider of the AAA Online Driver's Education course in Utah. So we delivered the LMS that delivers that course that, uh, the students pay the $50 for, uh, to get the driver's education and I, and, and there parental involvement with driver safety education is really important and we always strive to get parents involved in engaging with the driver's education. Uh, the problem is, most of the time they don't do a very good job. And I know that a lot of the, the parents, uh, that do homeschooling, do a wonderful job educating their, their students, however, they're not trained to deliver driver's education. And it's more than just a log. So one of the things that I would love to see happen here is put some teeth into what the parent has to go through and what they have to engage with to be able to properly teach their student. Uh, I thought I could teach my son to ski and I took him up the mountain and he said, dad, I know better than you do. I'm gonna go do it on my own. And sometimes there's a a little block there between parent and and child, especially when it comes to Independence and driving is the number one way that students show that they're independent. This is not skiing, this is putting an undeveloped brain in a car that's 4,000 pounds going down the freeway at 70 miles an hour. Uh, unfortunately in Texas, the study said that there were two and a half, two and a half times more likely to be in a fatal collision if they were parent taught in driver's education. And that's probably 'cause they didn't give the parents the proper training to be able to do it the right way. And it's one thing for a parent to say, well, I'll take that risk for my child, but as a general rule, that child is gonna take two people with them when they get in a fatal accident. So I just would advocate for making sure that the parents have the adequate information to be able to properly train their, their, their student, their child, if they're going to do this and that, that they, they understand the risks associated with that when the driver's education teachers here in Utah have to go through a 40 hour course and go through 16 hours of, of education every year to keep their licensure current, to educate our children.

Hi. Um, so I just wanna do a, just a quick comparison of how

Would. I just wanna do a quick walkthrough about how,

Oh, I'm sorry. Marianne Wilkinson and I'm with a one driving school. Okay, thanks. So when student, when individuals turn 15, they're, that's when they can take the in-person written exam at the state of Utah. Many students wait before they take that because they wanna complete their coursework. So a coursework can be completed in the classroom at the high school, it can be completed by 18 hours in a classroom at a a commercial driving school. If it's a correspondence program, it has to be the 30 hours, that's the $50 program that they were mentioning here, or a 30 hour correspondence program with a driving school. So that is the academic teaching portion of the program that everyone has to go to. Um, and then there's a final exam that they have to pass, like to, if it's correspondence, they have to do a, a in-person final to say that they actually did the work and can pass the knowledge portion. And then they still do the test at the DMV, I mean, at the DLD, some students will do that DLD test before they start driver's ed. A lot of students wait until the parents want 'em to wait till they get some of that academic information before they take the learner's permit test. But either way, after they pass that, then they hold their learner's permit for a minimum of six months. Um, if you are 16 or 17, if you're 18, there's no holding period for how long you have to hold a learner's permit, but you still have to take driver's ed. And then when you go to 19, it goes back to having to hold a learner's permit for three months. But anyways, during this time period that you have that learner's permit, it's good for 18 months and you need to complete your 40 hours of driving. And, um, most people, this, this is just from my 32 years of experience, they will start, parents will start private property driving to the church around the neighborhood. We all know that that's where it's starting. Most parents do not wanna send their kids out into high traffic and high speed areas until they have worked with a professional that they know that they have gone through. They've refined the skills, they've safeguarded it in a safe situ in a safe vehicle with a break and safety protocols. And then it's amazing. Like we said, we have to go in within 24 hours if a student was in our facility, we have 24 hours to report to in the DEM system that they took a written test with us for their coursework. If they did a drive with us, the date, the time, the vehicle, the instructor name, everything, we record all the scores. I have been subpoenaed by courts to re to give my scores that I recorded during teacher training for when a student was in a severe accident. We had to provide those back to the court. So that just kind of gives you that rough rundown. And then once they complete all of that and they've held their permit and they're 16, they can do their, their road test. But yes.

I'm gonna go on explain that so much. But, so now insurance, I carry $3 million worth of insurance and that is for bodily injury and property damage. Most insurance carriers will not even consider State Farm, Allstate. These places don't insure drivers ed schools. You have to go out to a specialty market, um, because of the high risk. And um, also I just wanted to mention one other statistical fact. Our vehicles are all equipped with cameras that videotape inside, outside, and then they send us, um, data. If there was any driving situations like cornering too fast, breaking too fast, um, severe hard braking, we had 282 incidences last month alone of severe hard braking. This would mean either the student pounded on the brake quickly or this teacher had to stop the car quickly. So in 2000 drives that we performed last month, we could probably say that we saved an accident, whether it was minor or not minor, but that would be 282 that a parent wouldn't be able to stop.

Question. 'cause I've been thinking about this bill, it's been on my mind a lot because I've got all the emails. How many people do you think, how do you think your organization's gonna be impacted by all of a sudden people saying, I wanna just teach my kid to drive? That's a really good question. Is it really going to impact the, the clients you all serve? Because I'm getting all these emails and I got an email even from a former constituent, and I'm like, but it doesn't sound like you're, you are going to be the targeted population if, if I'm understanding from the sponsor of the bill is students. We're not talking about all ages. Correct. Or am I reading the bill wrong? So I'm just curious, with all these organizations coming to testify against it, I'm not saying I'm for or against this bill right now. I'm just, I'm wondering how is this going to impact the people that you all serve?

I'm sure there'll be some that will choose to do parent and there'll be some that are going to continue to realize that there is safety involved. And I think what we have to, I always come back to even before I'm thinking about my own business, is I'm thinking about the safety of the people on the road. I'm thinking about the safety of the person that could potentially get injured because of, because we know that how great they, they they go, they come in and there may be a driver at a score of two or three, and by the time we're done with them, they're at a score of maybe six, seven or eight. And then they're gonna go finish that driving with their parent to so that they can then pass the road test. Um,

So I guess my follow up question, Mr. Chair, is, is the concern from the providers coming from the fact that there, you don't feel like if this bill was to pass, there's gonna be untrained drivers on the road? Or is it a concern about the impact on your business? 'cause I'm hearing two different things in emails, so I'm just, I'm just wanting the clarification on that.

Well, I think it's going to do all of those. I think it's going to cause a public safety hazard and I think it will change the look of driver's education.

Thank, thank you Mr. Chair. Yeah. I want to kind of build on what, uh, Representative Romero was asking. Uh, and, and thank you for the work you do. Obviously you're very conscientious about what you do. Do you know how many newly licensed drivers take, uh, an official class from a company like yours?

I, I wouldn't have all that data. I mean, I think driver's license would have that, but I mean, everyone's required to take driver's ed unless you're over 19.

Right. And I guess that's what I'm getting at. I

Mean, I know how many students I teach every year, but I don't know how many other students.

But there, there could be. I mean, I mean that's kind of what I was getting at. Newly licensed drivers that, you know, under 19, over 19 that may or may not have taken the class. I mean, we get newly licensed drivers from, you know, immigrants, people that come from other states that I understand now that, that I can't understand it, but kids are not getting their driver's license the day they turned 16. I couldn't have imagined that when, you know, when I was young, we'd like raced down and be there as soon as it opened. But, but that, I'm kind of wondering that how many people don't take an official course and yet they pass the test and get their license? I I'm just curious how we might find that data.

Right. So when they changed the law, about 40% when they decided not to have drivers ed required for adults, um, and I'm just speaking from, you know, I don't know all the statistical facts from the state 'cause I don't have access to that, but I know that, um, we lost about 40% of the adults that we taught when it was no longer required for adults. But I think adults are very different than youth and anyone that is 18 and younger is required. So all of those people are being taught, um, driver's ed, um, if they're an adult, driver's education isn't required. Okay. But they still have to do 40 hours. Um, they can waive the 40 hours in holding a permit if they do. The state says if you're 19 and older and you don't wanna hold your permit for the three months, then they said you can go and take a certified driver's ed course and then waive that and get licensed right away. Okay.

Hi, yes. I just wanted to clarify with that question, Hilary with DPSI won't forget my name this time. Um, the failing rates, we actually pulled those numbers before today. So, um, for third party road testers, um, we have a 21% fail rate for the skills test. Those that do it with the driver license division directly, 24%. Those that do it with high school driver education, it's 18%. And then those over 19 that do not go to a driver education course is a fail rate of 28%. So I just wanted to provide those numbers since they were asked. Thank you.

Thank you, uh, chair and, uh, committee members. I made a comment on Tuesday, so I'll be very brief today. Can You turn on your camera? Sorry, I didn't turn my video. Sorry. I meant to do that and I thought I had, oh, sorry. I got Japan in the background from something else. Um,

Uh, Kanosh Wade. I am, uh, I own eco driving Utah, but I'm mostly commenting today as a citizen and driver in Utah. Um, I feel like we're ignoring an elephant in the room and I wanna shine a light on him one more time. Um, I haven't heard the author of the bill or any of the committee members who might be in favor of the bill to speak to the best evidence we have from Texas and Nebraska studies that show that parents only driver's ed leads to more accidents and it leads to more injuries and it leads to more deaths on our roads. I can't, I, I don't understand why we're not talking about this more. I'm certain that the parents in favor of this bill love their children. I get that. Uh, they'll do their very best to teach them as well as they can, but the unambiguous evidence shows that they won't do it as well as professional instructors. If there's evidence to the contrary, I'd love to hear it. Uh, we can all put our heads in the sand and pretend the evidence doesn't exist, but it does exist. Um, we talked last time, or some of you talked last time about creating a better road test, which might solve this problem, but right now we simply don't have that. And without it, I don't see how you can support this bill. So I urge you to please vote No. Thank you for listening.

Yes. Hi. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to know, um, in these studies that you're talking about, did they, did the parents use the program that the driver's license division has put together for this program?

Uh, it's not, it's the same state, so I'm sure it was a different set of parameters that they used, but they did all take a road test at the end, um, and still cause more accidents and more deaths.

So I, I feel like the program that has been put together for this is pretty solid. And I pro I think we're probably comparing apples to oranges with the test, with the studies

That's possible. Um, although I would posit that we don't really have the program yet. We have the 30 hours of instruction, but I don't think we have a detailed step-by-step plan of safely teaching children. Um, I have not seen that and I haven't heard anyone talk about that.

Well, Representative Peck talked about it in her presentation.

Yeah. She talked about the 30 hour classroom piece, which I understand and I am totally in favor of parents doing that part of it.

Chair and committee members. Good morning. My name is Zaki and I live in Provo. I'm a driver education intent teacher at UCAS Charter School in Provo. I've been in training for over two years, which shows the level of training required to properly prepare teachers to mitigate some of the risks and liability associated with driver education. I'm a parent of five children, one who is currently learning to drive in an Alpine school district at a cost of, uh, $200. I'm here to speak in opposition to HB 4 6 4. While I understand the desire for flexibility, this build bypass professional standards that are essential for public safety in my class, a significant portion of my time is spent on doing the bad habits of well intention. Parents driving has changed, but often parent habits have not. For example, you no longer hold your hands 10 and two o'clock on the steering wheel for maximum safety. Professional instructors are trained to teach defensive driving techniques that go far beyond basic vehicle operation. This bill allows parents to bypass the, require the requirement for dual control vehicles. These vehicles are critical safety net that allows us to intervene to prevent a collision while a student is learning. We all want the same thing to keep our children alive on Utah rules, professional instruction behind will a proving safeguard. Let's keep our students with trained experts who can ensure our truly prepared for the rules. Thank you. Thank you.

Yeah, I think so. Oh, here we go. All right. Okay. Hi, I'm, uh, I'm Josh. Kofi with Ogden Road testing by independent, independent driving school. Um, and I could speak to this bill as, uh, a former employee with the driver's license division and examiner, um, but also as a third party tester, uh, as a third party tester and as an examiner at the driver's ed or driver's license division. I could tell you that the number of, of not just failed tests, but the number of lower scoring or higher scoring tests, I guess, um, by those people who, who have not done driver's ed or the, the six hours of driving with it in structure, um, is much higher, uh, making errors on the test. The, the test isn't designed to tell people whether or not they're a good driver, but whether or not they meet a minimum safety standard, and that minimum safety standard is important. Um, when looking at the safety on the roads. Uh, I could also speak to this bill. As a former employee of Esurance, uh, insurance companies tend to not offer discounts for students that haven't done driver's ed through, uh, uh, certified courses. Um, I know in Mississippi, they do offer discounts, uh, for people who do, because driver's isn't required. Um, they offer discounts for students who do driver's ed, but it usually brings it down to prices that are equivalent to Utah, um, before driver's ed. I don't know if that makes a lot of sense, but, uh, looking at higher premiums possibly. Um, but I think the main issue is just making sure that we're maintaining a higher standard. Uh, and yeah, I guess I'll just end it there. Okay.

Sorry. Lots of clicks. My name is, uh, Justin Meyer. I'm a driver ed instructor in Nebo School District. And I just want to reemphasize what Kanosh Wade said. He, he basically said, what I wanted to say is that there are two, uh, studies out there and, uh, I emailed all the pa all the committee members, uh, links to those, uh, studies. The Texas one. I just want to, uh, quote from the abstract how it ends. It says, parent taught drivers, again, experience proportionally more total traffic convictions and more and more serious crashes than drivers trained under commercial public school de programs. So I would encourage the, um, committee to, uh, vote no against this. Bill. Thank you so much.

Uh, board chair, uh, Audra, you're A-U-S-B-E. I can answer the question about what curriculum was provided for Texas, Nebraska, if you'd like. I'm the chair of the driver's ed directors across the country, so I'm very aware of what happened with those, what happens in other states. If you'd like me to answer. Sure, that'd be great. Uh, so in both of those states, um, driver's edu education curriculum materials for 30 hours were provided to parents. Um, they could get a home study packet or they were allowed to do online driver's ed, and the parents were also provided with training videos and materials on how to train their child, how to teach behind the wheel. So they were given significantly more information and training than what we've been talking about here today.

Yes. Uh, motion to adopt substitute three house bill 4 64.

Uh, I'll waive. Okay.

Yeah, I've looked at the amendment. I think it's great. I think it actually makes the logging system even better, so I think that it's a very welcome amendment.

Thank you. Um, yes, I, I commend the sponsor working on this. And, um, I guess I still have a few concerns and I have a question. Is currently, what is the homeschooling population right now in Utah?

The exact number, I'm afraid I don't have that number for you right now. I'm sorry.

I was hoping you did since you advocated for it so much.

No, I think it's changing all of the time. I would have to definitely go researching for that.

Yeah. And I, I guess the reason why I ask that is because if it's a small population and we put 'em some guardrails, and I think it looks like some of us are really looking forward to that fiscal note as well within the sub, um, is just kind of see where that plays for me. But, um, I don't know. I'm, I'm still indifferent, but I think you've done great work and, and also I hear the industry we're hearing from them as well, and I, I really believe there's a lot of safety concerns. My daughter, um, I, I understand that the, the process is so different from when I was a child, and so it's, there's a lot more constraints anyways, and so I get that part. Um, but, you know, she went through the system and she Uintah driver's ed and she still had a car accident, and I don't think we can derail kids doing that. Anyways, I think that's kind of a rite of passage, but unfortunately, which is, which is unfortunate, but I don't want that to be a big, a bigger problem on the roads either. So thank you so much.

Is there a motion on the floor?

Okay. All right. I'll wait for that then.

No, I'm fine. And to make a motion, I'll wa All right.

Yes. I move amendment one in my name.

Yeah. Um, when I came to sponsor my, my concerns about public safety were that there would be parents who, um, would use the program and not actually do the training. And I wanted to make sure that there were safeguards and guardrails, um, to, and make it difficult enough that the parents who really want to do it are committed and they will do it and they'll do a good job. And she was responsive to that. I just had one amendment to kind of add to that. Um, after this discussion, um, it's online and it would just add, um, another component to what a parent is supposed to do. And it is that they complete and retain driving logs equivalent to those required by the state board. Um, so the equivalent to what they're keeping, um, at the schools right now. Um, so that's my amendment.

It's a friendly amendment. I think it's a good idea. I mean, the more that they have to, to work with and to monitor the better.

Sorry. I'll take my hand down.

Thank you. I move, we favorably recommend,

Are we gonna, no, sorry. Oh, okay. Back too early. You like, you like the amendment. I like this amendment. And then we should do something else.

4 64. I move that we favorably recommend House Bill 4 64

Yeah, I would. Um, I've been all over in my mind on this particular issue, and it really, it comes down to just one thing, which is the six hours of training. There's no question that the online module for the 30 hours, a lot of driving schools don't have an instructor teach that. It's just an online module. That's fine. State board provides that the 40 hours, what whatever your parents do, and whatever they sign, say they did, and sign off, that's already in place. So it really comes down to that six hours. Uh, and I've talked to a fair number of kids and parents recently about this. Most parents I know would not want to do this. They don't wanna get in their car with their kid and go out onto the public street and risk that. And they're smart enough as parents to realize that they don't want to do that and they're gonna pay someone else to do it. But I've talked to parents who feel like that they can do this and that they, that they wanna do this, they, that they're comfortable risking their kid and their car and their time and, and they're, they're comfortable that they can do that and they want to do that. I actually think there'll be a fairly small number of parents who want to do this. So anybody who's worried that we're gonna have in the Nebraska study, 47% of parents opted to do this, there's, that's not gonna happen. There's, there's, and I think a lot of that issue in the Nebraska study was due to lack of access, though those parents didn't have any other option. They were forced to do it, which is one of the reasons I think that the study doesn't necessarily apply to our case because those parents did not, they were doing it basically involuntarily. They didn't want to do this. It was the only option they had to do it of significant penalty. So I think that we'll have a very small number of parents choose to do this. Uh, the, the bill has created enough structure and guards over that six hour period. And, and like somebody mentioned, one of the, one of the people mentioned, um, the vast majority of kids, I also did a little check on this. That's not the first time they've driven a car that's six hours with the driving instructor. Very, very few kids have not been behind the wheel in a parking lot on a farm road with their friends at school somewhere. They have all had some experience before they've done this, maybe even with their parents. So I think that this kind of guides us into a nice world where if you are willing to take that responsibility and accept the consequences for that, I, I don't see a problem with it. I think we've, I think that the sponsor has put enough structure around this to make me feel comfortable that, that that six hours is not going to be, uh, a disaster that's gonna permanently scar their kids, may, maybe their parents, but not the kids for the rest of their lives.

Yeah, I just wanted to speak to that too. Um, as I indicated in our last meeting, I am in, in the situation where my child will either have to wait to get their driver's license or I would do a driving school, or now there's this option and I will still do a driving school. This is not worth it to me. So I will still do the driving school if that helps ease anyone's mind. Um, so I, I think this is for the dedicated parent, which I'm dedicated in other ways, but of Course.

Thank you. Make two good comments. You're on. Just be, Um, first I have no idea this. Push your button. Let's see if that's the right one. It's on shows, it's on that next one. Um, yeah, maybe go to the next one down and see, See if this one works. Okay. Try that. Just two quick comments. First, I had no idea there were so many driving schools across the state, uh, and so many driver instructors 'cause holy cow, they have banded together and sent a lot of emails. Having said that, as I mentioned the other day in my district, there are none. There are none. And if our school district, uh, our school district, uh, the Cash County School district will not allow homeschool students to participate in the driver ed classes. If they are using the Hope Scholarship, we have no choice. So for, for, for that reason, I, I I, well, plus I like, I like what we're doing here. I like giving parents choices. I, I think what you've done is, is, is, is safe and wise and reasonable. So I'm, I'm, I'm glad to vote for this. Thanks. Thank you.

Thank you. I really appreciate the engagement, the help, honestly, from everyone in the committee that has come and said, listen, this, I see that this is something that we need to think about. We need to talk about this. How are we gonna do this? And, and I feel like it's been really collaborative. I like it. Um, I, I feel like this is again, like was mentioned from the good representative, that it's not gonna be used by every single person. This is not the lazy parents' track. We have made it so that the lazy parents track, not that again, anyone should be called lazy would be just sign 'em up at the school. That's gonna be the easy way. And, and I think parents know their children and they know themselves. They know what works. There's some parents who say to me, my chil my child, there's no way they're gonna be ready to drive when they're 16. Okay. That parent knows that they know their child. They're not signing their child up for a learner's permit because they know. And I think that's the thing, as parents, we know our children better than anyone else we do. And I think this gives people flexibility, helps 'em cross over a barrier. It keeps that parent child stewardship nicely intact and, and promotes a lot of freedom. I I do trust that parents can make the decision that's best for their children. And I think this legislation takes it in that direction while maintaining some really good guardrails and resources for those parents that are gonna do

I wanna just thank the committee for their interest and time in this. I, when I first saw it on the agenda, I thought this would be about a, a five minute discussion would be done. Here we are two meetings later, and we've spent, I think we've spent more time on this bill and this committee than any other bill. Uh, and that, I think that just should let the public know that we're not, we're not ignoring you, we're listening to you, but we're listening to everybody. And we're trying to come up with something that is the best answer for the people who need, uh, the government to come to their aid. And I, I think we're, I think I appreciate the sponsor for being willing to move. So far I didn't see any, I didn't see any numbers like 14 or 15 anymore. Those are all gone. So we're now talking about a six hour course, and that's, it's just this very narrow option to, to solve one little problem. So thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you. I'm gonna switch seats 'cause this one's a little bit taller and I'm a little bit short. So anyway, I appreciate that. I do have, um, someone who is presenting online with me today. If we could promote her. Her name is Kiara Poynter. If you can find that person, that would be great. Thank you. So I look forward to presenting on this bill. HB 4 64 parent taught drivers education amendments. I actually had no thought whatsoever about doing a bill like this. And then Kiara Pointer, who you're gonna hear from soon, she actually came to me with this idea and as soon as she said, you know, I think parents should be able to teach their children driver's ed, I was suddenly struck with this feeling like, you know, she's actually right. I started looking into it and there are many other states that do this. They all have, you know, their own little take on it. But there are many states who have allowed this for a long time and, um, and there for many people it would work really well for them. So once this bill, the idea for this bill came out, there were parents and students and people from all over the state that have reached out to me and spoken to me about their issues. This would be perfect for us. They say, because I'm on a sports team that practices in the morning and our driver's ed is only early morning and so I can't do it. Or maybe they have to do driver's ed in the summertime if they're gonna turn 16 at a certain time in the summer. And some people said, you know, we're doing the Utah Fits all program, so we can't do driver's ed at the school, which then is a problem for them. And then there's other people who've mentioned, you know, in our town, like for instance in Logan, there is no private driver's ed training place. So if they don't do it at a school, where are they going to do it? Because there's nowhere locally to be able to do that. So this, um, this bill basically just brings another option to, to people if it's going to work better for them. I don't anticipate that the majority of people will use the parent-led driver's education model. Right now, the total number of minors that get licenses are 49,000. This was, this was this last year's numbers, 49,285. Um, youth under age 18 that got their driver's licenses though of those forty nine thousand thirty six thousand eight hundred and sixty six took their driver's ed training at the school. And I would imagine that that would continue to be the case because that is the most convenient for people. Sometimes they're doing it at a school in person, sometimes they're doing it at a school online. Then there is third party driving schools. And so 12,419 people did their drivers training at third party driving schools. And currently those are the only options that we have. And if a person is not enrolled in the school or can't do the driver's ed at the school for whatever reason, then they have to pay a considerable amount of money to do the third party track. And that can be a pretty big burden for them. So as I was working on this bill, I had lots of meetings with the DLD, had lots of meetings with USBE and other stakeholders that would be involved in this. And USBE said that they would give us the state, well, I mean it's already the states anyway, but they would offer, they would say, we will give the full training. It's a 30 hour training. That is the training that students can take online when they're enrolled in public school anyway. And the parents already have to do 40 hours of, um, driving time with their students, with their children. Anyhow, so that's already what's happening. So really the only thing that we're actually even discussing in this bill is who should be able to do the six hours of that road training that can happen. And I suggest to you that parents are the ones who actually care about their children's wellbeing the most. And so they're gonna be very careful with their children. Um, there are, you know, obviously some drivers out there who may not be, uh, the very best of drivers. I would hope that if they were gonna do this, that that would help them become a better driver. But I do want to just say that there are multiple cases in recent years where driver's ed instructors have actually had horrible accidents In 2018, a 58-year-old instructor in New York actually was intoxicated while driving his driver's ed students. And they convinced him to stop at a McDonald's and then they secretly called 9 1 1 when they were there. And then, um, he then knew that the police were coming and he drove off. He crashed a vehicle, he injured another woman. Then there was another case in 2013, um, where Austin Heifer, a 15-year-old, was instructed by their driver's ed instructor to do a three point turn in an area with low visibility dangerously slick road conditions. And they ended up getting hit and Austin was killed. There are many other instances, and the reason why I bring this up is because I think that anybody could have, um, could have an accident behind the wheel, even some of the people who are teaching our students. But I think that the parents are really going to be making a really great effort to keep their own children very, very safe. And I think they'll do a good job if they get this option. And so, um, with that I'll turn some time over to Kiara Poynter, who is the youth who came to me at age 14 with this idea.

Hello. Um, my name's Kiara Poynter. I attend Toula High School and I play on the school basketball team. I come from a family of three children in 2025. My health teacher, Mr. Jimenez, at Toula Junior High, taught our class how to contact our representatives and get involved in the legislative process. So I contacted Representative Peck with an idea to modify the teen driving law. We had a meeting and she told me that she would actually run a bill for me. I was really excited about her willingness to examine if any improvements could be made to current driving laws for minors. I presented Representative Peck with two ideas to change the ages for the driving permit and license and to allow for parent-led driver's education. We're still discussing the first idea, so it's no longer contained in our bill. But the second idea is, and I would like to speak about that, I believe it would be a good option for parents to be able to teach their children driver's education. This would be helpful because some families don't have the time, money, or space in their school schedules. Some families simply don't feel that the traditional school or county driver's education programs are the right fit for their kids. The cost of private driver's education courses can also be super high. In addition, some families are uncomfortable with the driver's education courses being taught primarily in a classroom setting, which is how most school districts currently offer these courses. When students receive their permits, parents already plan to complete the required driving hours with their children. Through this proposed parent taught driver's education program, parents would be able to take a more active role by providing both instruction and hands-on learning themselves. This would allow parents to personally observe their child's progress instead of only hearing feedback secondhand from their child's instructor. I spoke with a parent about this idea and she shared, in my opinion, as a mom, I know how my child learns best so I could tailor driving lessons to their specific needs and learning pace. I also believe confidence could grow faster for a new driver when they're learning in a familiar car alongside a parent school districts. And their and the driver's license division could still provide an approved curriculum for families to follow. Larger families could especially benefit because they would already have access to the materials for multiple children, so they wouldn't have to repurchase it. Most families will still probably use the at school driver's education programs that will continue to be available. But for some students and families, this could be an option that fits their family's needs better. In conclusion, I believe this would be a positive additional option for families alongside both in school and private driver's education courses. Thank you.

Yes. Thank you Mr. Chair. So I have a few questions, but I wonder, um, has USBE weighed in on this bill, Utah State School Board of Education and the curriculum they'll be using?

Are you asking me? Um, yeah, we've had multiple conversations with them and they actually, it was their idea to say, Hey, we can just give you the 30 hour training, that's the online training and they can use that as part of the the curriculum. Do we have USB online? I dunno.

Thank you. This is Audrey Yuri, um, Utah State Board of Education, the driver education specialist. And the answer to the question is yes, we, um, did have conversations with Representative Peck. There is not currently a parent taught driver's education curriculum. And the course, um, courses materials that we do have would be at a cost, um, to the parents if we provided them. And they're just, the materials we do currently have are for teachers to instruct with lesson plans and then some materials for students. So not nothing specifically for parent.

Thank you. Uh, did the USBE take a vote on this bill saying that they support it?

We are neutral on it. Okay.

Um, how much training and what teacher certification is required of a driver's ed teacher that we're now gonna waive? So what does a driver's ed teacher need to do to become a driver's ed teacher?

Yeah, they have certification driver.

Oh, you were asking her, oh, I'm Sorry. I'm asking a USB.

Oh, sorry. Um, driver's education instructors have to have a professional teacher educator license and then they have to have 360 hours of training to get an endorsement. And 120 hours of that is a student teaching practicum where they learn with another instructor. And then the other piece of that is for college credit classes to become an instructor.

Thank you. Okay. Thank you.

You know, I've been all over on this one. I have grandkids that are of age and one's coming 15 next week and I ask them about it and it all sounds fun and good and that, but from my professional life, I do commercial driving training or teaching testing. Not the, I can't, I can't teach 'em and test them. And as I look at it and the one individuals that I test have had a license for a long time are trying to requalify for it or get it back. And those are the individuals I really have the hardest time with because they have very poor habits. Now I differ from the state examiners in perspective having been a truck driver all my life. And then now I have to put on their goggles. And what they see is what I mark on my test. When these individuals have such poor habits, we stop at stop signs, but actually they're yields we just kind of roll up to and around it. We don't stop before the stop sign. Those are the little things that people need to learn that as a parent, we overlook it. My kids would think that I was just criticizing them that they couldn't do anything. Right. So I think it does come better from somebody else than a parent. So I have a hard time going down this road with this bill.

Do you want me to respond to that?

If you'd like. Yeah. Thank you.

So I think that the parents know their children best and they also know if they wanna do that. I know that many parents have said to me, I would never want to teach my child those six hours. Right? I'll do the 40, but I don't wanna do the six. I'm like, that's fine, you don't have to 'cause there's gonna be all these options. Um, but then there's others who have said that would be such a blessing for us because my child has high anxiety, they have a hard time being with other people in that type of a personal setting. And that could be difficult for them. It would be so much nicer if they were already comfortable with me when they were learning this skill. So I do think that the parents will need to, and I think they do anyway, I hope they do. I would assume they, that all parents go, what does my child need the most, you know, for how they need to drive? And and that's really what this aims to do, is just to give that other option for some of those people where those other options may not work. And even in some areas in the state where they don't have access to a driving school, if they're not going to be part of what's happening at the traditional high schools.

Yeah, well I have grandkids in that situation. I have three rural schools that have this situation. They have to go somewhere else to find it. So I think I understand what you're trying to accomplish here. I'm just not comfortable with it yet.

Thank you Mr. Chair. Um, representative, I'm wondering, um, I'm, I'm concerned about what's gonna happen to industry, um, because we do have quite a few, um, driver training schools. My next door neighbor is one for example. And how might this impact them? Have you thought about that or looked into

That? Yeah, in fact they've been very vocal. I'm sure I I would imagine you guys probably got messages or something. They've been pretty vocal on this bill. Um, so I have thought about it quite a bit and I did some numbers. I, I pulled a lot of different data, um, from the state. So in 2020 there was 9,529 students doing from third party driver's ed. And now in 20, 25 numbers there was 20, uh, 12,419. So that's a growth of like 3000 students that have gone to, um, to the third party drivers training programs within a five year period. So there is some steady growth that's actually been happening there. So I don't actually anticipate that they're going to feel much of a twinge to this with this at all because we're, I think we're really talking about quite a few people that are maybe outliers that wouldn't be able to afford their children, wouldn't be able to have that launch into getting a job. And some of those things 'cause they can't afford that third party anyway. And those children, some of them are like timing out, like at 18, they just wait because they can't afford it, they can't do it. And um, and so I just see this as really capturing an option for some of those people who wouldn't probably go down that track.

Mr. Chair, I, go ahead. I think there will be an impact to industry and I am hearing some concerns, um, about that from, um, people like my my next door neighbor and, and others in, in this space. I also wanted to bring up something else. Um, you, uh, talked about a representative. The representative brought up, um, the instances, the unfortunate, um, and illegal instances of drivers training teachers who, uh, were drunk or otherwise incapacitated in ways that they should never have been. Um, and that that parents do have their best interest, their kids' best interests at heart and know them best. And I do believe that for a majority of our parents. Um, but you know, the dark side of this is we don't know what ha goes on behind closed doors sometimes. And I'm wondering, representative, do you know how many total DUIs there are every year here in Utah?

I didn't look that up for part of this presentation, but if you'd like to enlighten me, you can. Yeah, there's, there's 12,000 total DUIs every year and, and often, I mean, we don't know the numbers. I I don't know that we keep these numbers, um, publicly, but, uh, often there are children in the car, right, which elevates charges.

And, um, you know, my concern is that without the training, without the certification and without the safety, um, um, training, because I think, uh, uh, teachers and driver's ed trainers also have to have CPR and other emergency uh, type training. Without that kind of training and with, um, not having any guardrails on our parent teachers, I worry about what we are, um, what we might be allowing our, our parents to do. Parents who, uh, may not have, uh, their kids' best in interest at at heart. Um, and so that's my concern with the bill. Thank you.

I may have missed this, but I I have a question for USBE also.

You talked about the requirement for teachers in this school system. What do we require for private training for driver's ed teachers or that would run, normally run a, the parents would take their place running this course. What is the private school amount of hours required?

Senator Ipson, um, this is Audrey from USPE. Uh, I don't, um, the driver's license division is in charge of that program. Okay, that's fair. Um, But I can answer the Question for you. I can answer That's fair. The question for you, I can answer the question for you. Um, they're, they're required to do, um, an internship of mentoring hours of 60 hours and they're required to do 90 hours of training to become a driver's ed instructor. Um, and they have certain requirements and steps that they go through, um, to be able to own a company and to be an instructor. And then they also have to have a certification and as they said in first aid and CPR, um, so examiner training certificates and then they have to do professional development annually.

Okay. Thank you. Thank you.

Good afternoon. My name is Bethany Wolf and I live in Davis County. I'm asking you to vote yes on HP 4 64 and I would love to tell you why. I'm a 15-year-old homeschool student in 10th grade. I have been looking forward to getting my driver's license when I turned 16, but I have not been looking forward to paying $400. You see my friends that attend a local high school, they get driver's ed free because they go to the school. As a homeschooled student, I have to pay around $400 for a driver's course through a private school. $400 is a lot of money. I would love it if my parents can just teach me to drive. My mom already teaches me so many things, so why not driving too? I would feel so much more comfortable having my parents teach me than someone I don't know and who doesn't know me. I will still have to take the driving test at the DLD so I can demonstrate that I will be a safe driver. I ask you to vote yes on HP 4 64 so that parents can teach their own kids to be safe responsible drivers. Thank you.

Jennifer Wadsworth. I am the policy advisor for the Utah State Board of Education. I wanted to thank the representative for her collaboration with us on ensuring that this bill has the pieces that we need it to have. But I do want to clarify that the board has not taken a position neutral or otherwise. Thank you.

My name is Dana Cooper. I am speaking as a parent. Um, I am in support of this bill. My experiences with driver's ed were negative experiences. Um, I had a daughter and a son that both, um, went through the school and they were well into the next year of education before they ever got ever got their driving hours. And so I felt like that was very negative. Um, also as I was recording all of their driving hours, um, when they Uintah turn it in, it was just, um, sort of, they didn't take 'em. They were just like, on your honor, that's just an honor thing. Um, I don't know if that was required or if that's just what they were doing, but I would encourage you to, um, trust the parents to be able to do the best thing for their children. And I really think parents are capable of handling this type of thing. So thank you.

Hi, um, Senate committee chair and members. My name's Marianne Wilkinson and I am with a one driving school. I've been an instructor for 32 years and all of our vehicles have cameras in them for the student's safety as well. Um, so that we can track what's happening in our cars. And I just wanna point out just a few things about this bill. Um, I think students will become trained, as we said, to the abilities of their parents and whatever those are. And that this bill allows anyone to be a driver's ed instructor. And when we pass the bill that has no controls and no safeguards, then we have to expect all the possible worths outcomes. So that means anyone with not good intentions or that's going to falsify driving logs or that's going to say, just go out and do it and I'll sign you off. There's no control. So we have to also say, yep, there could be someone with good intentions, but we have to look at bills based on reality of what it could be and what we know will happen. And, um, can I just make a couple more things? Yes. You got 15 seconds. Yes. Okay. So I did some research on the top 10 and there's a study and it showed that the, the seven of the top 10 high risk states for teen accidents and fatalities, um, did not require driver's education compared to the safest states. They did require driver's education. And that was six out of those 10. And, um, I just hope you realize that this is a public safety issue and I wish I could just keep going 'cause I could share so much more, but

I, um, I'm Josh Alfi with Ogden Road Testing in Ogden, Utah. Um, I could speak to this bill as a tester. I've been a road tester for six years, both independent and with the driver's license division. Um, the test is all about minimum standards as Senator Winter, uh, Winterton spoke, um, it's all about minimum standards. This bill doesn't give space for those parents to have those minimum standards. You know, as, as an instructor, we have to have our two years of our record scrutinized. Um, parents can have suspensions, revocations, you can have a parent with an interlock offering drivers, uh, ed to their parent or their their child, excuse me. Um, but yeah, just minimum safety standards is what keeps our roads safe. And so if we take those away, um, roads won't be safe.

My name is Nina Wolf. I am the chair of UHEA and I serve on the board of U Hope. And I would like to thank the members of this committee for their service to our state today, you have the opportunity to make life better for innumerable families across Utah. I am asking you to vote for HB 4 64. I'm a homeschooling mom of eight. You have already heard from my daughter Bethany, who is my youngest. She has watched her older siblings have to choose between expensive driving schools or waiting until age 19 to get their license. Without that added step, most have waited. It is extremely difficult for home educated students to get their driving training through the local high school because some will only allow homeschooled students when they have first accommodated their own students. And many won't allow outside students at all driving school. Instructors simply don't know my child the way I do. I can see when my child is nervous or feeling overwhelmed by a situation, I can better gauge which driving situations she is ready to tackle. This is a huge safety consideration. Many potentially dangerous situations can be avoided by careful steady instruction with a parent who knows their child's reactions. And mental state, a driving instructor cannot possibly know my child better than I do. This bill will help parents keep our kids safe and develop their driving skills in the most effective way. And I thank you for your support for HB 4 64. Thank you very much.

Mary Ann Christensen, executive director of Utah Legislative Watch. I'm here to speak in favor of the bill. Um, first of all, I read the bill and it doesn't eliminate the need for driver education, it just allows parents to be the teacher of the driver education class. So I wanted to kind of set the record straight on that. Um, secondly, as far as I know, forever and day we've allowed farming and ranching parents to teach their children to drive farm and ranching vehicles on dirt roads around their property. It's never been an issue that can be complex as well. And for some reason that's okay allowing those parents to teach their children. I don't understand why we have an issue allowing other parents to also teach their children. So I hope you'll vote for the bill. Thank you very much.

Yes. Um, there you go. Can you hear me? Yes.

Um, first of all, I would like to thank you Mr. Chairman and, uh, the committee for all of the work that you do for our, uh, fantastic state of Utah. Uh, I am, uh, here to speak, uh, not in the favor of HB 4 64. I, myself, uh, am a instructor, have been, uh, for over 10 years. And as, um, A-U-S-B-E, uh, a lady said that the training that we have to go through, uh, is significantly more than any of the parents, uh, have gone through. I heard a couple of, uh, ladies that were talking about their children and, uh, if I heard correctly, they were simply talking about how they can help their child better. They know their children better, and I absolutely agree with that. But not one of them said how they can train their student to drive the car better. I understand their ability to know their students and their children a lot more than us, but I still doubt their ability to be able to train their students so they could be safe on our roads as well as we can standard. Um, we're kept to a extremely high standard by the driving license division. We get monitored. We have to submit documents, we have to have inspections, we have standards in place to be, to be overseen and laws that govern them. Parents will have absolutely none of that. Uh, and who will govern them? Who will say, admit that? Okay. We are going to monitor if you are planning, uh, on Putting out wrap up please. S of thousands. I apologize I've gone over my time, but I'm just gonna make quickly, uh, say that if you're planning on putting thousands of people out there to monitor these parents, whoever does their uh, training to adhere them to the same standard that we are, then I can understand that I Extremely thank, thank you very much

your time. Thank you. Hi, My name is Corinne Coner and I'm speaking for myself. I'm the mother of three young adults. Two of them are drivers and I wanna say safety on Utah Road should not be determined by personal preference. Parental preferences. Driver education should be taught by qualified driver ed instructors. These instructors are required to take over 50 hours of training plus yearly certification to be qualified to teach compared to parents with little or no training, but lots of good intentions. Parents are and should be the number one teacher for their kids. But when it comes to driving, that's a different matter than parents teaching their kids reading and math and science driving is a public safety issue and a privilege. There are currently several existing options for students to get their license. Um, in a previous hearing, it was mentioned that any student, including homeschooled students, can take driver ed at their local school. That might be something to ask the USBE about. Um, having safe, well-trained drivers benefits everyone on our roads and helps keep all of us safe. Please oppose HB 4 64.

Thank you committee, uh, Dr. Timothy Best. I'm the Healthy Lifestyles Director for Davis School District. Um, I just, I'll, I'll be brief. I just want to, uh, mention I'm, I'm not in favor of this. I, I do have a lot of concerns. Um, but basically I want to, uh, address some of the fallacies that I've heard. Um, we welcome private charter homeschool kids in our, uh, building if they wish to take that course with our instructors. There's no charge to do the, uh, the classroom component. Um, and for $200, which includes, um, you know, the, the required six hours plus the driver's license test, uh, $200. That includes, you know, we pay for the gas, the wear and tear on our vehicles. Um, the, the insurance to cover not only our students, but our instructor, uh, plus the instructor break. Last year we drove, uh, right around 5,000 students, uh, in our district, and we failed 300, which, um, that's neither a, a positive or, or a negative, but the fact that we fail kids because they are not safe to drive on our, on our roads is, is, is a big deal. But, um, passing all those kids along to the DLD, uh, just for that test, um, that'd be tough. We also have instructor breaks and cameras as well in our vehicles. But I, I would pause it, that our kids need to be uncomfortable when there are driving, uh, which helps them adapt to the, the chaos that's out there on the roads and allowing parents to, uh, train their own kids. And, and I agree with, uh, Ms. P, that I don't think most of the kids parents want to drive their kids, uh, if we're honest. But, um, that undermines the 360 hours that are instructors. Um, you know that. Okay. Thank, thank you. They learn. Thank you for your Time. They take care of their kids.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to make a motion that we move the agenda. My driver's ed teacher told me emphatically that your car is a two ton killing machine on the highways in the roads. Farms are different than roads. Uh, the break on the passenger side makes it very important for kids that can't drive or struggling to drive that there's that safety mechanism. Parents don't have that. When I taught fifth grade, sixth grade, parents would lie on how many hours their kids had read just to get a sticker on a chart. So, uh, this is concerning for me. Also. I know our parents aren't all like that, but that they could misrepresent their reading to expand their reading. Knowledge is concerning. Homeschool experience could be detrimental to my life and my family's life on the roads. And I don't think that's the risk I'm willing to take. Um, kids are at the highest risks of having accidents. That's why our kids have higher insurance. That's why we have a driver's ed program. If that wasn't a fact, we would have less insurance for kids that were younger. Homeschool kids probably do feel more comfortable with their families, but they have to take a test with somebody else, and they have to be on the road with many other people. That's why we have to insert them into sometimes awkward experiences. This bill seems dangerous and I cannot support it at all. So with that, I move, I make a motion to move the agenda.

Well, obviously I would like the motion to go. I mean, I would like the bill to go forward. I think the parents are welcoming that. I, I think we need to be careful to just realize we're only talking about six hours here. And most children, most young people have gotten into a car or driven something before they ever even did that six hours in that driver training class. Um, and so, you know, we're talking about six hours that a parent is doing something that they do more than anything else, more than mowing the lawn or anything. They are in their cars, driving around. And so they are equipped to teach their children these things, especially with some of the things we're providing. And they will have to log all of it. I would just say, you know, put families first and don't get sucked into the turf wars, uh, that the independent driving companies have tried to turn this into. No one's trying to attack their business or just trying to provide for families and, and for what they feel like they need for their children.

to make a substitute motion. Substitute Motion is in order. I'd like to move to hold the bill. Okay.

I can support that motion. I wanna put my families first, so I'd like to hold the Bill. Thank you. Okay.

If that's what the committee needs to do. I'm obviously at your mercy.

Thank you Mr. Speaker Pro 10. I don't know if a lot of people know, but in the state of Utah are minors getting driver's licenses are actually growing. So this year in 2025, the numbers of minors getting their driver's license were 49,285 and 36,866 of those drivers, minors getting their driver's licenses, took their driver's education at the school. 12,419 of those minors took their driver's ed at a third party facility. So just an independent driving school, which is actually up 3000 on that independent driving school side. That's up 3000 students from 2020. So in the last five years, there's been a significant increase of people taking driver's ed from independent parties. So I was reached out to, by a constituent of mine who was just in junior high school asking me if I would look at making a change to driver's education and making it so that parents could teach driver's education. As soon as this student mentioned that to me, I actually suddenly felt like, yeah, this is actually a good idea. And this is because students are usually driving and learning how to do driving maneuvers from their parents actually when they're really young, before they ever even oftentimes get into driver's training. But parents anyway have to sign when the students take their driver's permit test, the parents have to try sign and they have to do 40 hours of driving with their students already. It is the school that does the actual training modules or the in-class time and then they do six hours of training. But beyond that, it's on the onus of the parents anyway, to be good driver instructors for the students and for their children. And they really carry the biggest burden in teaching their children to drive. It's their insurance that they have to put on the child, it's their family automobile that they're using, which, you know, if anything were to happen with that child behind the wheel, they, they would be liable of it. All of these things. So anyway, we've worked really closely with the DLD and USBE and we've come up with some really great language and that language is actually represented in amendment two, which I just realized I forgot to adopt before I just got into this. Um, so maybe one of my colleagues will do that in a moment for me anyway. Um, so we've made it so that this is what will happen if this bill goes into place. So right now Utah law says that a minor has to have driver's instruction and they have to, you know, have some criteria met. So we made sure that if families wanted to teach drivers training at home, so we're calling this parent led driver's education, then what would happen is the parent would go to the DLD with their student. They would take the driver's permit test if they passed the driver's permit test. Then after that, instead of having two options for how they would take their driver's instructions, which right now are a private facility or at the local public school, there would now be a third option added, which is parent led driver training. And this is done in many other states. So it's not new to, to, you know, we're not making this up here. It is a model that's been done in other places. And then the drive, the DLD would say to the parents and to the student, okay, you need to attend a zero fatalities class. You need to fill out this log with all of the six hours of drive time to make sure that you get those adequate training hours. And here is a link to the, uh, 30 hours of training, which is the normal online class that USBE now provides to students. So they would get that full training that students are already doing at home. Colleagues. What this is going to do is it's going to remove a barrier of entry to driving for so many people. We have a lot of people who have morning sports, afternoon sports, early morning seminary, those types of things, which in some places the drivers ed at the school is only being taught in early morning or after school. They're not able to do it. Some of them are also turning 16 when the, when it's the summer. And so now they can't immediately get their driver's license at the time when they're turning 16. We've got homeschoolers who are teaching their children everything already. And this is something they probably do even more than doing B biology. Um, and so they would probably even be more equipped to teach this. We've got people, because of our parents' choice movement, that their option is not to be able to take it at the school. We have also, um, people who are for whatever reason, not feeling like it's a good fit for them. There was one young woman who came to committee and mentioned she was 15, that because of the financial condition of their family, she was going to have to personally save $400 for a private training and that that was gonna take her a long period of time. Our young people need to be able to launch into Adulthood. Representative Representative Peck, just, just everybody remember, we cannot discuss what took what happened in committee except for the committee. I apologize for that. Thank you. Thank you. Um, so with that, that is the end of my official presentation. Thank you. I'm Open to questions. Thank you Representative

Yeah. Motion to adopt, uh, Amendment Two, adopt amendment number two on house bill 4 54 or 4 64.

I'll waive Representative Peck to the motion to amend That language is just agreed upon language with DLD and USBE. Thank you.

Thank you Mr. Speaker. Um, a rise in support of this bill and I, I want my colleagues to understand why. 'cause it might seem counterintuitive first, but the reality is that for a young person, so this is not an adult, this is for a young person who is seeking can get a driver's license. There are three components of education. The first component is what we call the classroom or the workbook or whatever you wanna call that. It's the, it's the textbook part of learning how to drive. And that can be done in many ways. It can be done in a classroom, it can be done online, or there's actual, in some cases there used to be a physical workbook that you could complete. Then the second phase is the six hours of death defying experience with a knowledgeable instructor. So that's that six hours. And then there's 40 hours at the end where you're out with a parent or other adult who is teaching you the, the finer points. So essentially this bill only touches that six hours in the middle. So the question is, do you have to be doing that with a certified instructor and pay them or can you as a parent go down and is there a process for you to become on a provisional basis the instructor for just this one student? And that's what this bill does at the end of day. It gives the parent the opportunity to be the instructor for those six hours of that in-car driving. And you, this is where it's counterintuitive of. You might think, why would anyone wanna do that? The reality is, if you ask any driving instructor, when you skid in that car with those kids for their six hours, what percent of them are first timers that they've never driven a car before? And the answer is a very small percentage. Kids are kids. They have experimented, they've been in their friend's car in a parking lot, they've done all sorts of stuff. And so by the time you're getting to that six hours of in-car driving, they're not novices who don't even know how to put it into drive. They, they already know. And so if a parent knows their kid well enough to know that they're ready for that and the parent's willing to take that on as a one-time provisional exception to teach that one student, I, I have no problem with that. So with that, I would support, uh, encourage your support for the bill.

Thank you. I wanna thank the sponsor for working with me, working together as one of my favorite things. Um, and she was able to address many of my concerns. And, um, we got to a really good place with this bill. We spent a lot of time in committee and I would just like to thank her and I support this bill.

Thank you Mr. Speaker ProAm. Will the sponsor yield to a series of questions? Will the sponsor yield to a series of questions?

Thank you. First, what is the amount of time that it would take for the parent to be able to do this on their own? How much training does it take for the parent to do this?

Well, the parent is going to have access to all of the 30 hours of training modules so that they can go through those with their students. So that would be like the whole entire class. They also have to do the six hours of that observation training time in the car with the student. So they would have to log those things down. They also have to attend the zero fatalities with their student as well. So this isn't gonna be for the lighthearted parent. I mean, this is actually gonna be harder than having their child do the, the class at the school. I would think more of your lazy parents would wanna just go the school route. And I would think the majority of people will still go the school route. But for the few that this is a good fit for them, um, I think they'll put in that extra time.

Thank you Mr. Speaker. My my second question is, is the on on liability, does this shift liability in any way or does it change the liability that that might be there with, uh, a change in how this is being taught?

So Mr. Speaker, right now, as soon as your student gets their learner's permit, the parent and the parent insurance is technically liable for what is going to happen with that driving whenever they are in the car with that learning driver anyway. And so that's just gonna maintain the same that it currently is. So driving schools would probably have some additional liability because they are now being the driver in the car with the student. But when the parent is in the car with the steward student, that already can happen and that already is covered under basic insurance liability, um, when you have a new driver that's coming into the market. Thank you Mr. Speaker. Thank you Representative Monson.

Thank you Mr. Speaker. Will the sponsor yield to a series of questions? Will The sponsor yield to a series

Uh, the Mr speakers, you, you provided some interesting statistics at the beginning. What percentage of those who go through the school route do the online, uh, drivers training? I don't know if I have that number actually right in front of me, but there's a significant number. It's becoming increasingly more popular. And it could be that, you know, any driver could still opt to just go that route as well. There's just going to be multiple options. Uh, what's the difference between a parent monitoring the, uh, a student doing an online class versus what you're suggesting, uh, which is not, uh, and what you're suggesting in this bill?

Well, as was mentioned in a previous comment, really what we're talking about here isn't the modules. So those modules are going to be provided by USBE. There's not going to be a charge there. Um, and so they'll be able to go through all of that training material, but what we're really talking about is the six hours of in-car training that's happening. And so the parents are going to be allowed to do that six hours of in-car training and then do the logs like they would do at the public school. And then those will be turned in when they come in to apply for the actual driver's license.

Th Thank you Mr. Speaker. What today to be a driver's instructor, how much training is required to, to be a driver's instructor to do those six hours?

That's a really good question. I know that some people have mentioned that they have had, uh, an amount of training, a considerable amount of training. Um, I think that most people who've taught children to drive, I know I've taught many, um, how to drive, um, that know that actually being a driver and, you know, being out there on the road all the time, which all of the parents most likely are, otherwise they wouldn't be able to qualify. 'cause they'd have to have a, an active license and a good record and stuff for this bill, um, should be able to teach the, the trade, you know, to their children.

Uh, thank, thank you for that. My personal observation in driving the, uh, highways of Utah is that there are many parents who don't seem to know or follow the rules, uh, uh, today. And I'm not sure they're qualified to provide instruction. Uh, and I, as a parent, teaching children to drive was one of the scariest things I ever did. Uh, a near death experience more than once. And I appreciate having someone who's trained in, in the laws and the technique for training, providing some instruction to, to my children. So, uh, I think after that I think I'll be opposed to this. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the sponsor yield to a series of Questions? Will the sponsor yield to a series of questions? Yes, go ahead. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Does state statute require a certification and a training and certification for a certified instructor?

Not to my knowledge. It does require, from what I know, but putting this bill together is it requires that the students who are minors have to go through driver's education.

I'm sorry, let me restate the question. The certified instructors that parents can opt to in the private market, do those instructors require certification as per state law?

I believe so, yes.

The ones that are in the private sector, Yes. Okay. So my concern with that is that we're requiring a different set of standards for parents who would not have to, um, would not be required to be certified. My second question is, you the sponsor mentioned, um, that some other states have already implemented this. Do you have data on the rates to which crashes among young students have increased in those states?

There has been some information about one state that has been shared, and that information, apparently according to the DLD, was not really applicable to what is happening here because in those states, in, in the state where they mentioned that the people didn't have any other option except for to use the parent lead driver training model. And actually in our state, parents will have tons of options. So whether the person has a certification to teach it or not, the parent can choose. The parent can say, what do I think my child needs the best? So this really just puts the parents in the driver's seat. And I don't think that that information that was shared about, uh, I believe it was Nebraska, um, that was shared a lot, is actually applicable from what I understand.

Okay. Um, thank you Mr. Speaker Pro tem. So I am concerned because the sponsor stated in her, um, initial presentation that other states have done this. But the answer to that question, you've indicated that it wasn't actually this that was done in other states, but a different kind of the program, different kind of program. And therefore, um, your assertion is that it would negate data that includes statistics, like a 24% increase in these students that are not taught by certified instructors have a 24% increase of being involved in a fatal injury or accident. And in general, are 16% time, 16% more likely to have an accident at all. And so I'm, I'm concerned that we're drawing parallels that aren't actually there as per the, uh, sponsor's own assertion and that this is not wise policy.

Thank you Mr. Speaker ProAm. Uh, I'd like to give some little recent personal, uh, experience with this. I have a grandson that I raised and then he went back to his mother in Oregon and they don't teach driver's ed in school at all. Schools have nothing to do with it. So the kids have to read the book, take the test, and pass the written test in order to be able to start driving, and then they have to drive for 50 hours, uh, with a parent, an adult, they can't be with another teenager. They have to be, they can't even take family members, only adults. So, uh, I was out there in December, my grandson's been driving for a while. He does not have his driver's license yet, still has his permit, and I drove with him to the mall. We drove around and, uh, he was doing really well. So I would've had concerns about this before, but knowing that we have a state full of drivers, that they don't even take it in school and, um, they seem to be doing quite well. So, uh, I think for, as it has been said for some people, um, they will certainly expect this to be done at school, want it to be done at school. But there are those who will say, you know what? I want that experience to be, uh, with my child in six hours really isn't very long considering what my grandson has to do in Oregon, uh, with 50 hours. So thank you Mr. Speaker Pro Tem.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker ProAm. Uh, a couple of quick comments. First is, uh, so I'm up in Cash County and, uh, I checked last week and there are no, there are no private, uh, businesses providing driver ed services. Well, I've got, I've got kids in my family, grandchildren, as well as neighbors who are on, uh, uh, taking advantage of the Hope Scholarship Program. And the, the schools in our district don't allow them to use that, uh, to take driver's ed courses. So, in other words, there are children in our valley who have no option. There is no other way for them to, uh, receive the instruction that they need. That'd be my first point. The second point is, I understand, I understand our good, uh, uh, representative, uh, making point about, uh, sometimes our dr our parents aren't the greatest drivers. And I would suggest that perhaps this might be a way for some of these folks to be reminded of some things that they should be attending to. So as, as they prepare to teach their children, as they, uh, take their children out on the road, they'll be reminded of things that, that they ought to be doing. So with those two, uh, thoughts in mind, I hope you'll support the bill. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Uh, speaker Pro tem. Would the sponsor yield to a question?

Please forgive me if this has been asked previously, but have insurance companies chimed in on this at all as far as whether they're comfortable with parents doing this?

They've been really silent with me on it. I haven't had any requests for conversations with them.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Pro Tem. Uh, I did a little bit of research on this and, and what I was able to learn from an insurance standpoint is that each of these cars are covered with an individual policy as well as a a million dollar blanket or umbrella policy to, uh, to compensate for the higher risk of teaching people to drive. And that's in a car with two, two breaks, a break for the driver and a break for the, uh, for the instructor. And, uh, I, I heard from the sponsor that, um, that, that that's not expected to be the case in this, uh, in this scenario. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Um, I was, uh, part of the hours and hours of discussion on this bill earlier in the week, and, um, I am in favor of this bill. I'm the one who did the 40 hours with my children, the pro professionals did six, and we saw a turf protection in spades in this discussion. I think that having a break and a and controls on your side of the car is cheating. So having taught my children to drive, and I also think that most parents are not gonna do this anyway. They're gonna go to the schools or they're going to have private instructors because they are not brave enough to teach their children to drive. I think this is a good policy. I think it's helpful for the areas in our state where there are no driving schools and I encourage everyone to vote yes.

Representative Kyle, uh, Mr. Speaker, I call the Question. Thank

Thank you. I think the, the last thing that I would just like to share is that the parents care about their babies, their children, I think more than anyone, and they're not going to want to put them in danger. So however a parent thinks is the very best way for their child to learn how to drive is what they're going to do. And we just wanna make sure that all parents and all families have the opportunity to do what they is best. And that's what this bill is all about. And with that, I encourage your support.