H.B. 476 Insanity Defense Amendments: transcript

House Law Enforcement and Criminal Justice Committee, Feb 25, 2026

1. Committee chair (presiding)1:26:36

   Finals eight one. Thank you very much. Thank You, representative. Thank you. Yep. Okay. We'll now return to, uh, our prior discussion with his brief commercial break from Representative Pucci to H HB 4 76. And we are continuing public comment. Okay. We're gonna have like a, we're gonna reset that timer to 90 seconds to a minute and a half. Go ahead.

2. Debra Widmer, Utah Shattering Silence Coalition1:27:07

   Good morning chair and members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to speak this morning. My name is Deborah Whitmer. I'm the director of the Utah Shattering Silence Coalition. This is a grassroots family led organization representing individuals and Utah families who support them, who are living with severe mental illness. I'm also a caregiver for a loved one with, with severe mental illness. I'm here to share the family perspective on this bill. Families across Utah live with the reality that serious mental illness, UNT untreated, can lead to destabilized behavior that can become erratic, confusing, and disconnected from reality in those moments. What matters most is a system that can respond clearly, consistently, and appropriately for the safety of both this individual suffering as well as the community. Individuals may cycle through crisis arrest and release and further destabilization without the treatment or structure needed to help them with this serious brain disorder. And also keep the community safe. Families are not asking for leniency in this bill. We are asking for accuracy, consistency, and public safety focused decisions that recognize the medical nature of serious mental illness while maintaining accountability and the structure that's needed. When the process is clear and reliable, it helps courts make informed decisions and when appropriate, connects individuals to forensic treatment and monitoring that reduces risk from the family perspective. House Bill 4 76 moves Utah forward to a more structured and safety focused approach at the critical intersection between serious mental illness and the criminal justice side. Thank you for your time and service and support of this bill.

3. Committee chair (presiding)1:28:48

   Thank you. I know there were two or three others, right? Yeah. Are

4. Unknown speaker1:29:00speaker not certain

   we all wearing matching things on purpose? There was An accident. No, That was okay. I Left the accident. Yeah.

5. Erin Bigler, Salt Lake Legal Defender Association1:29:06

   All right. Um, hello again. We met last week. I am, uh, my name's Aaron Bigler. I'm a mitigation specialist, and I'm actually here today on behalf of a family who couldn't join us in person, but is watching online. Their son is in prison. Um, even though several experts testified in his case that in any other state his case would've been the most clear cut example of NGRI they'd ever seen, um, because our time is very short, I actually want to skip what I've written and address some of the concerns that have been mentioned as far as competency and civil commitment. I really want to caution, um, the committee against conflating issues, right? Just recognizing a need for reform in other systems doesn't mean that we should improve policy in this system. There is almost no circumstance. In fact, I can't even imagine a circumstance wherein someone was accused of murder and would not go to the state hospital, but would be civilly committed in the community. That is because when people are awaiting adjudication on a murder charge, they're held in custody and they move directly to another locked facility upon civil commitment. Um, and then like Rob Ard, um, individuals who are civilly committed to the state hospital would likely spend their lives there. Um, I, I know more about this and I'm happy to answer questions if you have them.

6. Committee chair (presiding)1:30:37

   Thank you. I don't see any questions. Okay. Okay. There's one more. Mark. I know you're excited.

7. Sherry Whitworth, advocate1:30:51

   Hello, my name is Sherry Whitworth. I'm a longtime mental health advocate and work in a very various capacities and coalitions, uh, for people with severe mental illness and their families, and I am als also have a loved one with the severe mental illness. Severe mental illnesses are medical conditions, their brain disorders. But unlike other disorders that may emerge later in life, such as Alzheimer's or Parkinson's, they often emerge in early adulthood. These illnesses are cruel and they can profoundly impair an affected person's connection to reality. Families are placed under significant strain as they struggle to understand and frantically seek timely and appropriate care for their desperately ill loved ones. Too often, intervention only occurs after a crisis or tragedy. This bill promotes the safety of the person, the family, and the public by ensuring accountability while helping people with severe illness access, appropriate recovery oriented treatment and rehabilitation. It's time. Utah provides this option for its citizens and families. We respectfully request your support. Thank you.

8. Unknown committee member1:32:13speaker not certain

   Thank you. Um, I have a question for you. Sorry, I said that after you stood up. Oh, you're fine. Um, do you have any thoughts about, you know, I mean, sorry, reset that thing. Uh, the private conversations we've been having about capacity, and you know, what, this should really look like that it should probably mirror something that's more regionally based instead of, um, limited so, so far away from, from folks that need it. Um, do you have any thoughts about what that should look like?

9. Sherry Whitworth, advocate1:32:46

   Well, I think right now we have a, a state hospital that has this very specific expertise that knows how to work with this, this population. And, uh, I think they do a wonderful job. It's about connecting people back to the community and continuing outpatient commitment services mm-hmm. When appropriate. That's not going to be appropriate for everyone in this situation. But per the, the broader conversation, I, we really have not funded our state hospital, uh, to the levels that it needs and added beds that, uh, are in concert with population growth. And that's something that, that we can do. But in light of this conversation, I don't think that should be the barrier to enacting good policy and doing the right thing by this population that have these very serious

10. Unknown committee member1:33:46speaker not certain

    I understand that. I just wanted to hear what your thoughts were. Yeah. Okay.

11. Committee chair (presiding)1:33:49

    Thank You. Thank you. Okay. Uh, is there anyone else in person that wanted to speak to this one? Okay. We have one online. You said Maryanne Christensen. Are you there? Lemme make sure you turn your camera on for us. Come on. We can hear you. We can't quite see you. There we go. Oh, we had you in a Second. Okay. There it is.

12. Maryann Christensen, Utah Legislative Watch1:34:25

    Maryanne Christensen, executive Director of Utah Legislative Watch. And there are some things in this bill that give me really severe heartburn On line 54, taking a list of severe mental illnesses and excluding them from the definition of mental illness for the sake of the bill is craziness to me. I don't understand that at all. Um, I appreciate the fact that this bill is kind of a backdoor to solve, solve the problem, rather than a front door. And so I understand that that's probably where that's coming from. But knowing how easily that, knowing how easily, um, definitions are pulled from one section of code to another, or referenced in, in a different section of code, I really have a problem with changing the definition of mental illness. So completely drastically and completely inappropriately. Um, the second problem is the definition of wrongfulness. The, the term wrongfulness to me, suggests that there are gradations of wrongfulness. When is it really wrong? When is it just kind of wrong? Um, terms like illegal and immoral are definitive rather than using the word wrongfulness. I appreciate the fact that this bill is trying to find a, a careful balance that we need to find. Our justice system is for meeting out justice and there needs to be justice for perpetrators, but we also need to be really careful that we, we remember that there's, there are also victims and we need to have justice for victims as well. So, thank you very much.

13. Committee chair (presiding)1:36:11

    Thank you. Sweet. Seth Stewart, are you there? Like, we have one more.

14. Seth Stewart, resident1:36:33

    Alright. Thank you. Yeah. My name is Seth Stewart, representing myself, um, from American Fork. And I have similar concerns to Marianne's, um, in the sense that we're pulling definitions from various places and carving out exceptions and so on, for, for what is admittedly a, a backdoor type of a system here. Um, I do have deeper foundational concerns, namely that, uh, this determination of, of incompetency could be made in advance and, uh, done by a, a judge and so on. Uh, I, I think that's a matter for a finding a fact for a jury. And, uh, that's, that's something that should be dealt with accordingly. Uh, you know, being able to have your, uh, ability to defend yourself taken away, uh, without that, uh, finding a fact by a jury is, uh, is problematic. So for job position. Thank you.

15. Committee chair (presiding)1:37:21

    Thank you. Is that it? Yep. I was getting worried. It had been a few days since we'd heard from Mr. Stewart, so it's good to see him. Um, we'll go ahead and return to the Committee for discussion or action. Representative Hollins, go ahead.

16. Rep. Hollins1:37:41

    Thank you. I move that we pass out HP 4 76 in sanity Defense Amendments with a favorable recommendation In order. Would you like to speak to it?

17. Committee chair (presiding)1:37:50

    I'll waive. Okay, Ms. We have a motion to pass out HB 4 76. Any discussion to the motion Representative Gwynn?

18. Rep. Gwynn1:38:02

    I'd like to make a substitute motion if I could, Mr. Chair,

19. Committee chair (presiding)1:38:05

    That's in order. Go

20. Rep. Gwynn1:38:05

    Ahead. That motion is that, uh, we hold the bill and move the agenda.

21. Committee chair (presiding)1:38:10

    Okay. Would you like to speak to it?

22. Rep. Gwynn1:38:12

    I would, I appreciate my, uh, sidebar with Mr. Moffitt earlier, and I appreciate Mr. Uh, Holland's comments. Certainly challenged my way of thinking. Uh, I do appreciate we're trying to capture a population that is sick and we're trying to decrease recidivism. I also understand and struggle with the fact that we have to minimize this to reduce the impact both fiscally and capacity. We do have a capacity problem. There's a lot of things going on with a bill like this, all of them good. And a capacity problem that we have. Um, I don't want to speak to Mr. Holland, but listening to his remarks and speaking with Mr. Moffitt, I think that there's the potential that defense and prosecutors could get to a place where they could agree on a definition. And while I would love to support the bill, there's much more discussion to be had and I'd love to see something like this as an interim study item. That would be my motion. Mr. Chair, We have a substitute motion to hold the bill and move to the next item on the agenda. Any discussion to that motion?

23. Committee chair (presiding)1:39:20speaker not certain

    Go to the maker of the underlying motion. Can I defer to the sponsor of the bill?

24. Rep. Carol S. Moss1:39:26

    The sponsor? Uh, thank you. And I understand the concerns of, uh, representative Gwen and others, but I, I do think this is really good policy. And when we talk about capacity, I understand the legislature is considering, um, giving millions more to the prison, uh, and think about that amount to put more money into prisons that can't treat people who are mentally ill. And where some of that money could go to the state hospital for more beds. I mean, I think that's a consideration too. We just keep expanding the prison and we don't have, it's not a place to treat people that are sick. And I'd like to just point out one thing that Mr. Holland said using Brian David Mitchell. Uh, he was on drugs for years and I know that personally, 'cause his mother taught in the right next to me, and we heard about that for years. He was not in any way in the same category as, uh, Mr. Lider and the ones that we're talking about that drugs and alcohol are not, uh, are not a mitigating factor in, in giving them an insanity defense. So wanted to point that out, but I'd really like to see this bill go forward and we can have a discussion and whether it makes it all the way through, I don't know, but we could continue this discussion. But I really wanna thank you Mr. Chair, for allowing me the time and for all these folks to come, because as you hear from families, this is very serious and, and, um, affects a lot of families. But I do think it's good policy, it's narrow, it's focused, and I think we would get, um, a, a great benefit for those who are victims as well as those who are the perpetrators that commit these crimes. Thank you. Okay.

25. Committee chair (presiding)1:41:15

    Thank you representative. Any further discussion of the motion? Okay, you'd like to waive your summation. I waive Representative Lisonbee.

26. Rep. Karianne Lisonbee1:41:25

    Uh, thank you Mr. Chair. Again, I think this is lofty and I think I won't be here, but knowing the members of this committee, assuming they remain the same, I think there's a potential that there is a negotiation agreement that can be had. I, I really struggle with, if we're gonna say these people are sick, but at the exact same time we're gonna say, but you're only gonna get the treatment you need if you commit a first degree or a second degree or a first degree or a capital offense as opposed to not getting the treatment or being treated the same if you commit a second or a third. I have a problem with that. I also have a problem with the, the, the capacity discussion. We're constantly talking about the prison. I agree with you. Representative. I have been frustrated with we, no, I'm not gonna be here any longer, so I can say it out loud. We have absolutely ignored the capacity issue of the state hospital ignored it. That needs to be a parallel discussion as we talk about prison expansion. And so I I I, I appreciate them trying to get to a narrow place and focusing on those defendants that are involved in cases of first degree and capital offenses. I also, at the same time struggle with saying that people who are just as sick aren't going to get the benefit because they committed a lower lying offense. That's completely the opposite of the way we typically do this. Fair. The discussion needs to be had. I would love to see something like this successful. I think we can get everybody on the same page. I don't think it happens today or by the end of next week.

27. Committee chair (presiding)1:42:54

    Thank you representative. I'll go, go ahead and place the underlying, or sorry, the substitute motion. This is to hold and move to the next item on the agenda. All is in favor of the substitute motion. Say aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed? Say nay. Aye. Okay. So seven to two. Okay. The motion passes. Thank you representative. Appreciate It. Thank you very much. Committee A Representative Gwynn for an additional motion. Go ahead. Thank

28. Rep. Gwynn1:43:22

    You Mr. Motion. If I, Mr. Chair, if I can make another motion. That's that we add Infinity Defense Amendments as an interim study item

29. Committee chair (presiding)1:43:30

    That's in order. Would you like to speak to it?

30. Rep. Gwynn1:43:33

    I probably just have, I think this is an issue we can't ignore and we need to confront our capacity issue and mental health head on.

31. Committee chair (presiding)1:43:43

    Okay. Ha, that was awesome. They're in the back row. Okay. From the back. Yeah. Um, that doesn't happen in this hearing, in this hearing room very often. That's kind of fun. Um, thank you representative. Um, any discussion to the motion representatives? Representative Hollins?

32. Rep. Hollins1:44:04

    I would support that. Um, I agree with the representative and I'm leaving also so I can say it. Yeah, we need to discuss capacity, um, at the state hospital. I can tell you when I've worked with them, the people, they are great to work in, but trying to get somebody in who is stemmy is a nightmare. Not because of the people who's there, they're great to work with, but because of the capacity of trying to get people into the facility. So I will support this motion And talk about for brutal murder.

33. Committee chair (presiding)1:44:38

    Thank you Representative Lee. I'm not sure what you were saying, but, uh, Representative Hall.

34. Rep. Katy Hall1:44:45

    Thank you Mr. Chair. I, I support this motion as well. We did have a bill last night in Health and Human Services that, that talks about, um, expanding those beds in the, in the state hospital. And it really does need to be studied. We, we do need to start putting money towards that. And so I wholeheartedly support this motion. Thank you.

35. Committee chair (presiding)1:45:08

    One, just to make, mention, us taking a form of vote on that in here solidifies that as a recommendation from the committee rather than a single member asking for it. I think it's appropriate in this case and whether I come back next year or not, it is something that we need to work on and tee up for the next version of us. So I would appreciate your support on this as well. Representative Gwen, would you like to sum? I will waive. Okay. Go ahead and place the motion.

36. Committee chair (presiding)1:45:39

    All those in favor of adding, uh, this topic, both insanity defense amendments with, uh, the discussion of the expansion of the state hospital and prison. Uh, say aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed? Say nay. Okay. That'll be an interim study item for our committee. Thank you, representative. Thanks again.

37. Committee chair (presiding)1:46:01

    Representative Moss. All right. Let's go ahead and, uh, move to, it looks like we took just enough time. You don't have to listen to music. Uh, Senator Pitcher is here mm-hmm. While she's talking to Mr. Moffitt.

38. Committee chair (presiding)1:46:24

    Um, go ahead and ask for a motion on our minutes of February 23rd.

39. Rep. Shepherd1:46:32

    Representative Hall, or Representative Shepherd, I move to approve the minutes of February 23rd.

40. Committee chair (presiding)1:46:38

    It's an order. Would you like to speak to it? No. All right. Any discussion on the motion? All those in favor of approving our minutes on February 23rd, 2026? Say aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed? Aye. They're approved. Unanimous. Thank you, representative Senator