H.B. 479 Election Code Modifications: transcript

That's compliment. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you Mr. Chair. Uh, permission to, uh, hand out some reading materials to your Committee? Yes, please. Yeah. Alright. Alright. In the interest of time, um, I'll get started while my intern's handing those out. Uh, second substitute house Bill 4 79, uh, election code modifications. I will point out that, uh, we have a substitute to adopt second substitute, and I'll speak to that in my presentation. Um, wanna make sure that, uh, we dispel some of the concerns that are out there. Um, sometimes we read a bill and we don't remember what's already in code still. Um, there are three ways to vote based on this bill and what's already in code. Uh, house bill 300 is last year. Uh, number one, the number one way to vote, uh, is by mail. And, uh, you opt in for that every eight years when you're new to your driver's license. That is in last year's HB 300. Um, and you return that, uh, by mail. So that's the first way to vote. Uh, it's, uh, conceivable that a voter may never vote any other way. They can choose to vote by mail the rest of their life, uh, just simply by opting in. Uh, the second way to vote, uh, is, is brought up in this bill, which provides, uh, uh, a voter for the reception of the ballot by mail. And then the return of that ballot has to be done at a Dropbox location with physical Id check. Uh, you may, uh, refer to that on lines 13, 11 and 1324 of the bill. That way of voting also requires opt in. It's not mandatory, it just requires a voter to opt in. Next slide. No, back it up. We don't govern by poll, but we don't ignore them either. And this poll, uh, from Piute Research, which is non-partisan, demonstrates that 83% of Americans support showing government issued id, uh, when they vote. And so that was, uh, part of the driver here to, to look at this. So the first two ways to vote require opt-in from the voter. Uh, and so think about that for a minute. Uh, how many are gonna opt in for, for item number two, I'm not sure, but it's not all of your voters. And then the third way to vote, if you choose not to opt in for anything else, then you need to go to a polling station to vote. And we've had those open, uh, for some time. So six years ago about, uh, we, we stopped voting entirely in person and Uintah vote by mail. And so we, we have these, uh, three options now to vote. Uh, go to the next slide. Um, and I kind of have described this. We've tried to make it as easy as possible. Uh, there's a provision in, in this bill, uh, when you're getting a hunting or fishing license to check the box to vote by mail. Uh, but, uh, certainly every eight years when you go renew your driver's license or your state id, uh, you can make this election to either vote by mail, vote by Dropbox. And if you don't do anything, you vote in person. Alright, next slide. Um, and we'll talk about this in a moment. Back it up one more. Okay. So, um, there was also a legislative poll that was done really quick. And that poll showed, and this was a question that I asked, I'll, I'll read it very quickly. The question was, do you support or oppose the proposal to continue mailing ballots to voters, but require them to return the completed ballot at a designated location and show identification rather than returning the ballot by mail? And that turned out to be 53% of all Utah voters from, from every party. And those not affiliated said, yes, they support that question. Um, and, and so obviously that's a little lower when you bring in all of those from all parties. I'd like to to also point out that the original fiscal note to this bill showed a, a cost of $10 million, uh, to implement this. Number one, that was probably based on the fact that, uh, every person would vote at a Dropbox. And I can tell you that's not going to happen. Uh, we, we don't believe that many will opt into that, but it's available in this bill. Uh, we took the time with fiscal analysts and, uh, staff to do an alternate, uh, cost analysis fiscal note for you. And based on go to the next slide based on these numbers, we took, uh, this from a state in the Midwest that has been doing this for a couple of years. This is their methodology for applying the drop box. I need to point out very clearly that the drop box will be nothing more than an indoor location, nothing outdoors. Uh, we may have some drive through locations. We're still working on that, where you will bring your ballot, show your ID and drop it in the ballot box that is locked. Uh, the good, uh, news with that method is that everything is considered cured. And so when those boxes are taken to the clerks each day after voting, they won't need to be cured. They won't need to have anything done to them other than scanning them in because they've already been checked and there's been a chain of custody of that box. These are the hours and times the week before the election when folks can go and drop their ballot in the drop box. Um, and, and, and you see there, uh, what those hours and times are based on those hours and times. And based on the fact that clerks indicated to me in one of our two meetings that, uh, all poll workers had to be paid employees, not volunteers, we applied that to this math. And the number we came up with for the entire state is on the low side, $621,000, and on the high side, 1.7 million to man all the boxes that would be required. And to, uh, to cover this, this requirement, again, I wanna be clear, this, this bill does not require anyone to use this option unless they so desire. And based on the information I've shown you, you know, 77% of Utah Republicans support, uh, Dropbox locations and showing ID and, uh, 53% of all voters support that concept. Again, they don't have to use it. They can vote by mail entirely. They can go into a polling location and vote there. Now, with that, let see if I have, I hear this question all the time. Um, why are we trying to, uh, correct a problem that doesn't exist? Well, that's a matter of opinion. Um, we do know that 300 dead people voted, uh, dead people don't walk in, uh, to a polling location and show ID and vote. But dead people can mail in envelopes and vote. That has happened. Folks, number two, um, there were tens of thousands and the number I got was 22,000, uh, ballots that were rejected in the 2024 election because the signatures could not be cured. I will argue that signatures are not identification, they never have been identification. Uh, identification is identification. One county would actually admitted to me that they found three people who voted seven times before they, uh, received citizenship. And so, uh, though though the audit, uh, uh, doesn't show all of what I've described, uh, this stuff is in the record. And so I would argue that we do have a challenge. And the challenge is that we keep our, our voting and our elections safe and secure. I spent my life in a uniform for the army of the United States. I can tell you that I've been to places on this planet where people die for the right to vote. They don't mind getting outta their easy chair. In fact, it's the greatest day of their life. I've seen people sobbing because they got to go vote. We have to protect this. If you, if you look at what goes on in this world, the first thing subversive organizations do is, is challenge your belief in the voting system. And that is why we have multiple ways to vote. And we encourage people to use their ID when they vote. Now, when we passed HB 300 last year, one of the improvements we made was to add the four digits on the back of the envelope. If you're going to vote entirely by mail and then to sign that as an attestation, that you're promising you are that voter. Uh, a couple of counties have tested this and uh, what they found is the numbers match. Somebody has a little Johnny's driver's license number and it matches, but they found many envelopes that had forged signatures on them even though the numbers matched. And we can, uh, speculate about why that happens or how that happens. But again, having options to vote in person, uh, kind of fixes those kinds of challenges. Again, we're not going after, uh, vote by mail. If people really believe in that methodology and they want to use it, it's still available, uh, there. But also the Dropbox is opt in. Nobody's being forced to use this. And uh, I think with that, um, I will take questions.

Oh, yay. I hit my button fast. Yeah, good job. I have several questions and issues with this, so I'll start with this one. And I've had over 200 emails and texts and phone calls in just the last day or so. And I appreciate them. They're all separate, individually written, they're not formals and they brought up an issue that resonates with me personally. 'cause my mother, um, voted until she was in her nineties and she lived in assisted living and she got her vote, her ballot came in the mail. Um, I either mailed it for her, she mailed it from the Wellington where she lived, or I might have taken it to a Dropbox. But my point is this, I'm not sure my mother had any ID at 94. She, her husband, my stepfather had been dead a number of years. I don't know that she had any kind of id, I don't know if she even had a social security card anymore. And what about people like that? I've heard from a lot of people that have elderly parents. And then one more thing, if I could, well first answer that and then I have one more question if you I can. Okay.

Yeah, of course. Um, we've tried to do everything we can. So, so number one, people, uh, who have disabilities or, or not able to vote, but who have registered already because you have to register to vote everybody, I don't think anybody disagrees with that. Um, they can vote from the comfort of their home if they've got disabilities that's still in the code. So, so people that are in rest homes, people that cannot, don't have mobility, can get permission from the clerk to vote electronically from their home. That has not changed in any of the bills that we've run the last couple of years and will not change. Uh, this idea of no id, last year we, we offered up free state identification cards because we don't wanna suppress the vote. That's something I've heard. We absolutely don't wanna suppress the vote. But what we do want is to have people that are, uh, qualified to vote to be voting. And so I don't recall a time I voted standing in line like many of you for many, many years. And, uh, I always had to have identification. If you look in the code, there are other types of identification other than a state ID and a driver's license. If you're a, a Native American, the tribal card works. If you're a military member of the military, ID works. Um, and there are some other documents in this bill and others that, uh, give you alternatives to, to having a, uh, uh, a driver's license. But, uh, the, the bottom line is you've gotta have some form of identification and we've made it easy to get that for free.

Okay. If I might ask another question. You, you talked about drop boxes, having to be indoors. I live in holiday and right next to the police station at the end of Holiday City Hall is a Dropbox and everybody just drives in and drops it down to put it inside. It's not a big city hall. I I can, it's open, it's no, it's not open all the time. But also it wouldn't handle, I mean, they have to set up a whole area and have people there to, um, to supervise it. It's not convenient if you have long lines of people waiting. And then if I might just add one more and then you can respond to those. And, um, you talked about dead people voting. Um, I, I'm eager to hear from our Salt Lake County clerk Lanny Chapman. And before that, Sherry Sw and I talked to them about this, the Bureau of Vital Statistics sends the death records right away and they put it in and I, I almost hesitate to use this example 'cause it's personal, it's too hurtful to me. But when my husband died four years ago, I, I looked on Vote Builder to see if he was still listed as a voter. It was about two to three weeks after he died. And it said deceased, as I said, it was hard for me to look at, but I'm just saying it happens very quickly, at least in Salt Lake County. So I'm very que I very much question how 300 people, dead people voted, maybe some other place in Utah, but it's in the largest county, Salt Lake County. That is not happening.

Is that a question, ma'am? There was a question in the first part. Reiterate the question you asked About Oh, About the, the size of the building? Yeah,

The size of the building and people having to go inside when it's so convenient to drive. And like I said, the police are right next door.

Yes. Um, we wanna give the clerks maximum latitude. And I will tell you that because, uh, voters have to opt in to do this way of voting, that that clerks will have access to, to know how many people in their county are, are asking to vote this way. And that will have impact on how many ballot boxes they need to have out there. And will also em perhaps impact on where they put them. We have talked about using city drive-throughs where you go pay your power bill in the drive-through line and just having your ID checked and have that dropped in there. Uh, what we don't wanna do is put people outside where they're gonna be cold. And, uh, I have a lot of faith in our county clerks. They do an amazing job and I, I have no doubt that they will be able to find the proper locations for these boxes based on, uh, the, for knowledge of how many people in their county wanna vote this way. I think you may find it's a lot less than you think it would be. So I think it is doable and, and I think, uh, we owe it to, to our citizens who do, uh, believe you need to show Id to give them another way to do that.

Thank you Mr. Chair. Yes. I have a few questions if that's okay. Um, I have also had so much contact on this bill. I think we all could probably say that my phone has been blowing up all day for people saying, please support this bill, please support this bill. And then some people saying, please don't support the bill. You know, anyway, um, there was some talk in your presentation about the funds and I appreciate that because I would say that's probably the thing that's been brought up to my attention the most is that somehow the cities or the counties are going to be expected to come up with a lot of expenses for this. I know that in Talla County when, when we had to put a, an outside Dropbox in which it was just a few years ago, 'cause all of this is so changing, you know, all the time, um, that I know that that was a financial burden for the county to do that. And so they're concerned that this is gonna create another financial burden for them. And obviously we don't wanna hurt our counties and cities as they're trying to make safe elections. And so I'm just wondering with that first question, if you could speak just a little bit more to the money aspect of it and maybe help me a little bit with that.

Uh, yes, happy to. Um, I think it's clear and, and it's understood that counties are already funded to run elections now. Clearly this would be a, a change. And, uh, to that end, um, I have complete confidence that I've been told by many members of our leadership that they, if this bill passes when it passes, uh, that they will ensure that the funds are there for the counties to execute this. Um, it's interesting, we stopped voting, um, in person, uh, six years ago and, and if indeed it cost $10 million to do that, uh, question I've asked is, where, where are the savings? Where, where are the funds that, that you save from that type of voting? And no one knows where those funds are if, if they were ever there. So my question or my answer to your question is that, uh, we, we love our county clerks. We give 'em a lot of difficult things to resolve and handle. And I know many of them get frustrated sometimes with legislators, but the bottom line is they're funded to run elections, and if they need more, we will absolutely make sure that they have them to get this done.

Thank you. So also, I've been asked about locations. I think you've addressed that, so I'm not gonna hit on that one, but I have two other quick questions, if you don't mind. One related to, um, how the people are going to find out about this, like the, the change that's gonna happen. I mean, obviously the news is probably gonna cover it, they're standing right behind me. Um, but, but I also think that they're concerned about are they going to need to be sending things out to people? What is that going to look like? How do you envision that?

Yeah, that's a great question. Um, you will note that in this bill, uh, it, it does not, uh, come into effect until after the 2028 presidential election. It'll, it'll be in effect in 2029, gives us three years. Uh, we're committed as legislators to ensure that there is a, uh, very concerted campaign, uh, whatever it takes using billboards. Uh, obviously the county clerks will be very much involved in that because they speak to voters all the time. So it's gonna take a concerted effort, uh, to, to make sure people are aware. Uh, we, we understand that some people may not have a driver's license expiring, uh, in the next three years. Uh, so they would have to make that election. And we're, we try to make it as easy as possible. They can make the election at their county clerk's office. They can make it when they buy a hunting and fishing license and they can, uh, contact DLD and do it outta cycle even if their license isn't expiring. But once they've made that election, it stays that way as long as they vote. If they st miss an election, then they've gotta sign up again to opt in to vote by mail or to do this type of voting where they go to a Dropbox. Okay. So I dunno if that answered your

Question. I think so. So the, so this Dropbox method is going to be the default method unless they say, I want to do the vote by mail, but if they've already said, I want to do the vote by mail, then they're already on that list basically, and nothing's gonna be changing for them until that time's out. And so basically then they would be informed at that point. Is that what you're saying?

And what I'm saying is the default way to vote is to go to a polling station in person. Okay. The, the first way to vote is by mail exclusively. And that envelope will have the place for the four digits that we've talked about, the last four of your driver's license or social security card or state id, and then your signature on the back of the envelope. You may mail that, you may even carry it into the county clerk and drop it off. Uh, the second way is to say, Hey, I wanna receive that envelope at home. And so I can sit around the table with my spouse and friends and talk about, uh, which judge I want to kick off the bench or which legislator I want out and don't wanna vote for anymore. Um, and then when you're done with that and seal that envelope, that envelope looks differently. It says do not mail and that envelope is the one you take to the, the polling or the, uh, the Dropbox drop off. There won't be anything done there, there won't be provisional ballots done there, there won't be, I need to register to vote done there. It will just be my envelope. Here is my id. It's in a sealed box ready to count when the clerks get it. Um, if you need those traditional things like a provisional ballot or I, I forgot to register to vote, can I do that? You can do that at any polling station like we've always done it or you can do it at the county clerk's office.

Okay. It sounds like you've contemplated a lot of these scenarios already and, and maybe not, maybe the public doesn't even fully understand all, all the things, but it sounds like that you are saying that the government, in order to make sure we have secure elections, is saying that we will pay for a billboard to let people know in places or something like that to make sure that outside of word of mouth or what happens with normal day-to-day interactions with the county clerk, that we're gonna make sure that the people know and we're not gonna put an additional burden to educate or inform on the clerks. Is that right?

That's correct. As much as we possibly can. And I will say, let's be frank with each other. No matter what we do to notify the public, there will still be people that might be confused. And we understand that anytime you change a method, uh, when we change to all mail-in voting, people were confused. And, uh, it takes some time. But we are committed to make sure that resources are there to get it done and get people notified. That's

A good point. I was confused at that time. Okay. What my final question, and I'm sorry Mr. Chair, I'm really going along here. I apologize 'cause I know we are already long. Um, so last question. Um, do we already have, uh, what verifications are in place currently to validate identity? Do we already have like a multifactor auth authentication, um, happening already? I think you might have already addressed this slightly, but I guess are we saying that this is going to be in alignment with that?

Yes. The question was do we have a multi, uh, uh, authentication process? We do because of last year's HB 300, and I'll note the same people that don't like this bill, didn't like that bill, they didn't want the multi authentication. We have it now. It's the four digits of that, uh, card that you carry, whatever it may be. And the signature, uh, the bottom line is though we found some, some challenges with that, with, with false signatures. And so, uh, that's, that's why this other method to vote in person along with the, uh, opportunity to go to the polling station if you so choose. That's the way I vote.

Okay. Thank you. Thanks.

Yeah, go ahead. So, um, and this is very important to me and I, I have so much respect for what this bill is trying to accomplish and, and the good, um, the good sponsor here. I, um, my question is, is I have a few questions. So one of them is, um, why are we continuously as a body targeting drop boxes? We've, we've changed the rules, we've changed the laws within the last six years of we have to have them monitored. We have to have them video recorded. They're next to police stations, they're at city halls. Um, and why, why do we continue to, to look at this as not being a fair way to vote?

Yeah, and I, I really appreciate the question. Happy birthday, by the way, your daughter. Um, I'll be real quick. Uh, obviously we don't, uh, we don't have a crystal ball. We wish we did. Uh, we, we thought going to all mail-in voting was a grand idea back six years ago. Uh, we've seen some challenges with it. Uh, a lot of the citizens disagree with that, but a lot don't. And, uh, so we're trying to modify, uh, this process so that, that we know at least in this state, that, uh, the people that should be voting are voting and the people that shouldn't be voting are not voting. And, uh, that that's why, uh, the processes change. We understand the confusion. I, I feel the confusion myself. But at the end of the day, uh, just personally it's personal to me, having seen, uh, nations that have lost the right to vote, and I can tell you from historical and it's easy to go check it out, what happened in Venezuela, the, the moment that, uh, government shifted, uh, gears to a, to a a different type of government, the elections were targeted, they were changed, they were controlled. And people will say, well, that's never gonna happen in Utah. And I say, it'll never happen in Utah if we're very vigilant. And so I think this is just trying to be vigilant. We have enough of our citizens that have said, we wanna show ID when we vote that we are trying to make options for them out there to do it. We're not saying you have to, but we're, we're providing you with a couple of options to do that. That's my answer. I'm not sure I covered what you wanted. Yeah,

No, thank you for that. Um, and how would this, how, if we were to pass this bill, how would this affect our rural, um, communities? Because we already have, we've already seen how it's affected and, and, and really how successful we've had voter turnout from rural communities, um, by mail-in ballots. And, and how would that affect us?

Well, I don't think it has to affect us at all. The bottom line is those, those voters in the rural areas or those voters that are in firm or, or have handicaps, can continue to vote the way they've always done. Or at least for the last six years. They, they may vote by mail without any problem whatsoever. If they're, uh, bedridden, they can vote electronically, which is still in the code. So, uh, again, I don't see it impacting, uh, that much. Um, I do understand small counties. In fact, I had a call from a, a, a good county commissioner the other night. Uh, some counties have very few voters. And so, but again, these clerks will be able to see ahead of time who registered to vote with Dropbox. And it may be minuscule in those counties, but they'll have time to react. And, uh, so I think this, I really believe I've done some really heavy logistics in my life. I believe that this can happen fairly smoothly.

And, and one last question. Um, currently I, you know, have done special elections and been a part of it as a city council member, I know that a city can obtain and absorb a lot of money, not just counties for changes in, in elections or if there's special elections. And it could be up into the 20 thousands that a city is, is having to be obligated to, to provide this, this will then raise that cost. And so do we know what the costs will be to cities and towns, um, and how this can affect impact their budgets? Go

Back to the math. Um, yes and no. So yes, in that, go back one, go forward. Sorry. There we go. It's been a long day. Um, we know, we know based on the math on this slide, uh, and this again is based on a Midwestern county about the size of Davis County that has done this for a couple of years. We know based on these these, uh, equation math equations, we loaded in, uh, the number of days, the number of hours, uh, the number of locations per voter, and then we loaded in how many, uh, poll workers would be needed to come up with that number. But as we get closer and people make their selection and say, no, I don't wanna do this, I wanna vote by mail, that will bring that cost down significantly. Um, I do not believe we're going to see a stampede to this second way to vote, but it's gonna be in there so they can choose it if they want to. And again, um, we will sit down with the, with the counties and do some detailed math well before 2029 to make sure they're covered. We don't want anybody to do more with less. We want 'em to, to do, uh, have the resources they need to get this done.

All right. Thank you so much. That concludes my questions. All

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll be quick. Um, I just want folks to know that we did do an audit. Uh, it did show some fallacies in the system. It did show some of the things you mentioned. I too have received lots of emails and texts and as I did a little number counting today, I was about 50, 50, 45, 50 5% out of about, I'd say 300 emails and texts. Uh, security's gotta be important for all of us. The opt-in thing I really like, and I like that, that you're delaying the implementation date to 2028, uh, to be effective because that'll give us the time to work with our counties because I represent four rural counties who don't have the budgets that a lot of these urban counties do. And it's gonna cost them manpower to man these drop boxes. And, and, uh, I've got some great county clerks, I admire them, the work that they do. And I would dare bet that in our counties down there, we never had hardly any of this fraud, so to speak. But we don't wanna be like the feds or to our states. Sometimes we complain that they're giving us a unfunded mandate and sometimes they do. And we don't wanna be passing mandates from the state to the counties. So I appreciate the fact that you said leadership will guarantee that we, uh, work out the costs for these counties. And you just said it a minute ago that you'll work diligently with the counties. You know, I've already gotten emails from some of my clerks that said, you know, roughly 15,000 here to man drop boxes in those rural counties. You got towns spread out, right? And they have one Dropbox in each town. Uh, let's, let's do that and let's do it, right. Uh, let's get that money to those folks. So we're not acting like the feds are to the state with unfunded mandate. Let's treat these people like they're human beings and that we, we want good elections, we can get there, but let's, let's treat our counties the way they ought to be treated. Thank you.

Thanks. I'll just say couldn't agree more, uh, no question there, but I'll just say if I can. Mr. Chair Bond couldn't agree more. I am absolutely fully committed and as is house leadership, uh, to, to ensure that counties are well taken care of. And back in the day, I used to do wildland firefighting for the federal government in the, in uniform. And, uh, I would expend, uh, massive resources and it would take me five years to get repaid. Uh, that's not the situation we're gonna have here. Thanks.

We've got Aaron Davidson, Utah County Clerk. Um, so this process that he's proposing is, is, uh, very similar to what Utah County has implemented. It's called the fast cast voting. Uh, so we implemented a process where voters could fill out their mail out ballot and bring it in person on election day. And we had a separate line for them as opposed to everybody else where they had simply brought their ballot in the ballot envelope. They showed their id, we stamped that ballot, initialed it, and received that ballot. We took those ballots back and we opened them and counted them. Um, as Jeff as Representative Burton said that there were two 20,606 ballots that were not counted because the, the voters did not cure their ballot. That was about two 1% of the total ballots received in the count in the state. So with the fast cast voting, 100% of them are counted. So those voters knew that if they showed their ID, that would be counted. It wasn't mandatory. It was completely optional. And our, our, the voters in Utah County really appreciated that. Um, as was found in the, the audit that, uh, representative Albright Albert referred to is they have found that sig signature verification is very subjective. And we have seen that happen over the last couple of years. And can I just a little 30 seconds more,

Yeah. So I put some of the, the things that we're facing with as county clerks into AI and told 'em to write me a little poem and it goes on ballots and packets. The signatures wiggle what once looked like names. Now Band Bend and jiggle, they swirl into scribbles and they loop into loops. Some looked like a doodle from lunchtime soup groups that once what once was a name with the flourishing flare. Now dribbles like spaghetti tossed up in the air. Oh, bring back the autographs. Steady and true. Not these squiggly squiggles we're sorting through. All Right. Signature verification is very subjective and we are struggling with it more and more as the years go by. And so this gives voters an option.

Good afternoon, representatives. My name is Lita er and I have been listening to everything. Have you ever considered doing a fingerprint on a ballot or a blood sample? It is irrefutable evidence of a physical person signing that ballot and I just wish that you might consider something like that. And I also am concerned about, uh, IDs. I Uintah the DMV and paid $23 to have my address updated as well as my photo. And I am a disabled person. My signature has changed considerably over the years. I am concerned that people's votes when they show their ID will be getting kicked out because of address discrepancies or old photos and things like that. That can become a real dilemma. And thank you. Thank you for your service.

Hello, my name is Tina Horlocker from Davis County. I'm a member of the State Central Committee for Utah. I'm a former chair of the Davis County Republican Party. It has been said that elections when done securely are peaceful revolutions. When people lose confidence in the election process, they lose confidence in their government. It is incredulous to me that we have to prove the obvious. We have to use ID to get on a plane to set up a bank account when we get pulled over by a policeman in so many more examples. Why is it so difficult to understand that elections are compromised in peace? Destroyed When we cannot secure our elections, there is nothing more important than protecting the peace and confidence of our nation. As a member of the SCCI was a co-sponsor of re of a resolution passed unanimously that in part read resolved the Utah Republican Party. SEC calls on state legislatures, county and municipal governments to pass laws and municipal codes and rules that allow for full transparent hand counting procedures that are planned timely, fully observable, uh, let's see, that's the wrong one. Calls upon identification laws and calls on state legislators to pass the law to ensure every voter is a legal citizen of the United States and verified to be the actual voter regardless of method in which they vote at the time of voting, casting, or deliver, delivering a ballot. Unfortunately, we cannot make these decisions based on ease or comfort or even disability. We have to make these decisions based on the peace and confidence of our people and our nation. Thank

Hopefully I've scheduled this for 1 45 and also as a mom, thank you so much. 'cause I can understand, like, Sorry we've kept you so late. We didn't mean to. It's okay. It happens. My name's Olivia Shelby Taki and I'm an Afro indigenous Mexican American, a direct descendant of Heber City Kimball Hannah Moon Kimball, a former slave and abolitionist, a disabled voter registered Republican in a sometimes hesitant use Harvard resident. I speak to you, you today, mindful of the courage of my elders Erda B Wells, John Lewis, Martin Luther King Jr. Joan Trump hour Mulhall and Jennifer Keland Chapins, who literally climbed the steps of the Congress to ensure a DA and countless others who gave their bodies their time, their lives for the most sacred of rights. Suffrage, barriers to the ballot are not theoretical. They are historical, constitutional. And he calls about deeply personal. It's deeply personal to buy people 'cause we've only had the right to vote for 50 years. HB 40 79 imposes unnecessary burdens in-person ballots, return to extra ID requirements and sparsely staffed drop boxes. This is not procedural caution. It's feckless redundant overreach that's cruel, unnecessary, and discriminatory. It disproportionately impacts disabled voters, rural residents, seniors shift workers and communities of color. Long COVID has created a growing population of younger, permanently disabled voters who will face real harm. This proposal reflects foolishness and apathy perpetuating fear-driven racially charged myths without evidence. True governance should not be guided by paranoia. It should be guided by prudence justice and concerns for every citizen. In fact, reliable authoritative sources have repeatedly found no evidence of widespread voter fraud and it would alter election outcomes. This is factual based, accepted by federal agencies, courts, and nonpartisan researchers. Basically, I oppose this. Um, full unfettered participation is sacred. Election integrity and voter access are not opposing values. A system that includes eligible voters. All right, for factless cruel administrative overreach rooted in fear, misinformation, and deliberate restrictions is neither secure, just or fiscally responsible authority must be exercised with love. We, we gotta move on. Thank kindness and pure knowledge. Thank you. Uncheck Power invites unrighteous dominion.

Okay. My name is Kristen Richie and here representing Eagle Forum. Today we support this bill and efforts at election integrity. Why would someone oppose this? I think there's two reasons. It's inconvenient. Well, are we that lazy as citizens that we cannot take 15 minutes every couple of Wow, Hey, hey, let everybody, the quorum is We cannot take 15 minutes every, every couple of years to make our elections more secure by physically showing an id. Number two, the second reason I think would be we have people concealing information being dishonest in some way. Yesterday I saw a news report by Nick Shirley, an independent journalist in California. He was at a house, an empty house in California that had 108 people registered to vote from that location. We want to avoid this problem. And this bill gives us the chance to work so towards solutions. Um, both of these reasons being inconvenient and being dishonest are very concerning. And anything that can be done to strengthen elect election integrity should have our full support. Thank you.

Yes, sir. Thank you so much. My name's Linnie Peterman. I'm the mayor of Helper City, which is a small rural community in southeastern Utah and Carbon County. And I am opposed to this bill because I know last election cycle Helper wrote out a check to the county for election support, $18,000. When you're talking to a small rural community that may not sound big on the Wasatch front, that's big down in Helper. Um, I would ask that you carefully review the headcount and how that's going to be, uh, distributed because I think the way the bill's currently written that it's really not going to decrease the cost depending on how people opt in or out. So when you think about these things, rural communities are going to struggle with this. Um, I believe our elections are safe. I believe they're secure. And I appreciate that my citizens have the opportunity to vote. I appreciate that my elderly citizens don't have to get in a car to go somewhere to do that. And making it that hard for people, especially in rural who will have to travel. It just seems really like the, the scales are tilted against us. Thank you for your time.

Hi. Uh, my name is Dr. Jan ir and I'm a Highland resident and precinct chair. The importance of, uh, representative Burton's HB 4 79 bill cannot be overestimated. Mail-in ballots are one of the easiest ways to commit fraud. That's why this bill is so important to elaborate additional options for those filling out ballots remotely and bringing them to, um, polling boxes or polling stations. Uh, Steve t, who is a state legislative candidate, has run election certification canvases for years in Utah, in which he and his team have found the following problems with mail-in ballots, deceased individuals, voting voters that have long since moved for, uh, from addresses that they are still voting from voters that never lived at the addresses listed as their registered address. And voters that simply do not exist and yet are voting. I strongly urge your committee to vote yes on HB 4 79. This will go a long ways to improve election integrity in Utah.

Uh, my name is John Boyd. I'm from Lehi, uh, representing myself. This bill, uh, represents a massive additional, um, amount of complexity to, uh, the voting process. Um, as has been stated before, it is, uh, absolutely solving, trying to solve a non-existent problem. Um, among hundreds of millions and even billions of ballots cast over decades. Um, incidents of voter fraud nationally and locally, um, are statistically almost non-existent. Um, there is no evidence of meaningful fraud. The, uh, audit that was talked about a little bit earlier, the 2 million votes that were audited, uh, in the past couple of months. Um, there was, there was no no find, there were no findings of voter fraud at all. Um, and, um, mail-in voting has been, uh, working fine for a long, long time in Utah. So I don't know why we're trying to change it and add this complexity. It's really gonna cause voter suppression. Um, it's concerning to me that disinformation and conspiracy theories about previous so-called rigged elections and voter fraud are creeping into the Utah Legislative Dialogue. This isn't about voters being lazy. This bill is going to make it harder to vote, especially for those that are less mobile, including the elderly rule voters, single parents and shift workers, um, which will cause lower voter turnout. And it's going to cost the taxpayers at least $10 million ongoing. If you look at the, if you agree with the fiscal note, and even if it's a little less than that, it's gonna cost millions of dollars to do this. Um, so we'd actually be paying for voter suppression. If we're gonna spend $10 million ongoing for negative outcomes. I propose we scrap this bill and give that money to a better cause. Um, I bet the Utah teachers could use it. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. My name is Jenn Brown. I represent Utah Citizens for the Constitution. And I think it's just important for us to remember with this bill that nobody is gonna be forced to do anything different. So when we're talking about voter suppression, there's no voter suppression because nobody has to vote any differently if they don't want to. And in the code 20 a dash six dash 1 0 3, it talks about disabled voting and the accommodations that are made there. So nobody's being forced to get in their car that is disabled drive someplace that is not happening with this bill. So this bill is giving some different options. If people wanna do the Dropbox, they can show their id. They, if they don't wanna change anything, they do not have to. So I just think that, uh, this is great to just give more options for people, but it's not forcing anybody to do anything. Thank you.

Go ahead. You're have another one, actually, you Said two. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm Lee Perry, boxer County Commissioner. I represent, um, not only the count my county, but also Utah Association of Counties. We have voted, um, unanimously to oppose this bill 4 79 and last year we actually worked with a version of House Bill 300. We worked with the representative and counties negotiated in good faith to reach a solution and address the many of the concerns and, and that we're there. And we have incurred as counties that million dollars in cost that we have not been reimbursed. We've had to come up with that money ourselves as counties to cover that cost that came out of his house bill 300. So we understand that. So we're concerned about that going forward. You've seen the numbers on your thing. Just for my county alone, a rough, rough estimate for Box Suter County will cost us about $15,000 one time and will cost us ongoing a hundred twenty six, one hundred twenty 6,000, $1,100 ongoing just for Box Suter County. And this will disenfranchise our voters in our county. 'cause I'm a rural county that spreads, takes you two and a half hours to get across my county. There will be residents that will not be able to get their ballots in. And they do like the Dropbox in our county. Their Dropbox is a huge asset. We have put drop boxes in various locations and spent a great deal of funds to make sure they're secure and they're safe. If we have to go down this road and put workers at those boxes, it will increase our cost. Having to move those boxes inside and trying to track that. When we're also believing, we'll probably end up having to put deputies with it, which will further increase that cost and be a, a detriment to us as a county. So we would ask that you not support this bill. Thank you.

Okay. I'm assuming it's me. Uh, Wendy Hartt. I'm from

Highland. It's truss Rampton. You might wanna let Wendy go first. She's probably in favor and I'm against

Okay. Sorry. Um, yes, Wendy Hart from Highland. Um, I just want to say that I am in support of this bill. Um, I think it's, uh, phenomenal because, um, making primarily in-person elections illegal was a, a problem six years ago. And I think being able to have the option where people go back to, um, voting in person is a wonderful community event. We did do fast cast as, uh, clerk, uh, Davidson, um, mentioned, and it was absolutely fantastic. Wonderful. It's the best of all possible worlds because you can deliberate at home and then you go in and it, it was very, very fast. Um, I do have a disabled family member who will be able to use, continue to use the mail in, um, option. And I, I just think that it's, it's wonderful, uh, for my city in Highland, when they were originally looking at doing online versus in person, it was actually less expensive for them to mail, um, mail in ballots to those who requested them than, uh, to do, uh, full mailing. Anyway, thank you so much.

Thank you. My name is Russ Rampton. I live in Provo, Utah. I am representing myself, not my employer. I also happen to be a candidate for Utah County Clerk running on the forward party ticket. The problem with this bill, and there's lots of them, but the one that I want to talk about is it sounds like we're offering, uh, voters these three different ways to return their ballot. And while that seems good on the surface, the reality is it would trap the voter into whichever one of those, um, choices that they made. If you get a buy mail ballot and say, I'm gonna return it by mail, you can't take it to a Dropbox, you can't take it to the clerk's office. It has to go through mail and all of the risks of perhaps delayed, not showing up on time Promise, everything that's involved with that. Okay, thank You. The second thing to talk about is that if I've got a Dropbox ballot, I can't then mail that in and I can't turn it in anytime, except for when things are open. So again, for people that are doing shift work, uh, for people that might all of a sudden they're going to be out of town or they're going to be, um, immobile because of some unforeseen incident, because prior to that, that election, they're not gonna be do it. So overall, this limits voter participation limits opportunities and doesn't provide any added security.

Um, I actually wanna speak in, in opposition.

Yes. Sorry, I'm also against the bill.

I, I'm speaking in opposition.

Um, I'm actually a previous, current and previous election worker, but I'm speaking against. Okay. I just have a different perspective then on other than others.

Last word, huh? Um, probably not the last word, but, Uh, well, thank you committee, uh, chair and, uh, members of the committee. Um, my name is Norma Wheels. I live in Salt Lake City, and I'm speaking for myself in opposition to this bill. Um, as I understand it, it creates a third way for voters to, um, cast their ballots. Um, and it allows those voters to present their ID in order to drop off their mailed ballots. What I don't understand is why we need a third way to do that. If a person is going to have to make the effort to go to a polling location or a Dropbox to be verified, they can just as easily go in person where they have to show ID in order to vote. So I just do not see the logic in creating yet a third way, um, to cast your ballot and make it more confusing and perhaps limiting for, uh, many different types of voters. So I would urge you to vote against this bill. It just seems, um, superfluous in my mind. Thank you.

Well, I have some questions if I could to the sponsor.

So I, I'm sure you covered this in your testimony, but we've seen estimates, um, in emails, texts, uh, phone calls that this will cost anywhere between seven and $10 million. I noticed in your flyer you have, it cost the local government anywhere from 500 to, to 1.6 million, but you have an asterisk by that. Can you explain what that asterisk means?

Uh, yes. Um, the initial fiscal note was designed and developed basically on what was turned in, uh, to, to the LFA. Uh, what we did is we, we, uh, went through line by line based on what's in the bill, based on the days and times that boxes would need to be opened, and based on the number of poll workers that would need to be paid. And, uh, you know, based on, uh, the number of boxes per voter. And so, uh, we, we know how to do math and, uh, we came up with the numbers that were revised, uh, because we absolutely do not accept or believe that that's gonna be $10 million. Okay. I think those numbers were based on every single voter using this methodology to vote.

Okay. I have one more question. Um, it was testified that if you come to the polling location with a picture ID, where the face matches the name, but maybe the address is incorrect, uh, based on somebody that moved, would that invalidate their ballot?

You're talking about a polling Dropbox location?

Yeah. Yes. If they were Dropping. Yeah.

And I wanna respond to that, uh, in, in this way that the, the Dropbox locations are designed to be, uh, for speed. That's why, to answer the question that was asked, you don't, uh, you, you can't do some of the things you do at normal polling station. You can't get a provisional ballot. You can't get, uh, you can't register to vote at the Dropbox locations. You can only take that envelope that was mailed to you, show your identification, be validated, and drop it in the, in the box. Um, if you need, if you have issues like I forgot to register to vote, you have to do what we have always done, go to the polling station or the clerk's office to get that done. Does that answer your question?

No. Okay. Ask It again, please. If I move, if I sell my house in October, move to a new address where the ballot got mailed to, but my existing, we, we renew our licenses every eight years. Now, if the address changes, are they just matching the face to the name, or do they have to match the address to that ballot?

They're not matching the address while you're there. Okay. At the Dropbox location, I will say that if you move, uh, DLD gives you three weeks to notify them of your move and to get that license updated.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, one of the main questions that I've been, uh, asking and was kind of brought in on some of the public comments are, um, if, if, if you opt, if you wanna vote by mail and you get your, your ballot, you fill it out and you're headed to town and you think, heck, I'm not gonna drop it in the post office, I'll drop it in a Dropbox. That's what we've been able to do. The last while, is that option still gonna be available or do I have to have to have said ahead which particular method I'm going to do then stick to that method?

Yeah, I'd like to correct something that, uh, one of the members of the public said, uh, that, that you only, you're locked into putting in a mailbox. You're not, you can take that, uh, that envelope, that it's a mail in envelope to the county clerk and drop it off. You can take, uh, one of these Dropbox envelopes and drop it off, uh, at the clerk's office. You can take it to a polling station and, uh, drop it off. It's just the way they're handled. And the reason that this will save some money with the Dropbox is there's gonna be no curing. If you've got an envelope where your IDs checked and it's put in the proper box, the clerks don't have to spend myriad hours curing, uh, those ballots. They can just simply count them. And so there are multiple ways to drop them off. This bill does not, uh, prohibit you from dropping it off in another way. Does that answer your question?

Mm-hmm. Yep. One more question. Alright. Okay. So, uh, another question that, that has came up. Uh, I saw a chart that looked like my county U Nena County was only entitled to one Dropbox because of the way numbers are. Is that, is that what we're gonna, are we limited on, on the number of drop boxes that we have in our, in our counties?

Not at all. We use that methodology based on a county in the Midwest. Um, we're gonna give, uh, clerks maximum flexibility. They know their county better than we do. We're not going to tell them exactly where to place those boxes. It's, it's up to them to, to decide that. And again, they're gonna know ahead of election time how many people have elected to do it that way. And that will have a large impact into how many boxes they think you in a county or any other county will need.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, I, I was a little late getting here. I'm, I'm wondering if the committee has already adopted the second substitute or needs to on this bill?

Maybe to the sponsor. I'm looking to that the committee adopt sec. Okay. Ms. Chair, I, I move that the committee adopt, uh, second substitute HB 4 79.

Yeah, thank you. Friendly motion. We Uintah a lot of trouble to do, uh, sub two based on a lot of the input we got from the public. I think it's improves this, uh, dramatically. So I would support that motion.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I recommend that this committee recommend favor. I, I move that this committee recommend favorably second substitute HB 4 79.

Thank you so much. Um, thank you for working on that second sub. Um, I just wanted to state, um, my concerns regarding the changes in our voting code is not just going to increase costs for rural cities and towns with the tight budget year. I worry how we're gonna support them in these changes. With these changes including the hours of these drop boxes that are available to, um, already, um, from 504 hours to 74 hours. The fraud that I remember in, in past findings when I first moved back from California, um, from school were mothers who were committing frauds for their childrens who are on missions. And with that recent audit and with the current recent audit, we are not seeing this or we're not seeing fraud, um, with mail-in ballots and my own last election, I cured many ballots and found and found certain situations concerning that voters no longer had lived at those said locations. Um, with everything that is happening in our own state and our country, i i, the, the inherent fear with citizens that are facing, that they are facing already, I worry that this will continue that fear. And we know historically when we continue to change how we vote, it suppresses the vote and enacts fear. I know attorneys in other states who have placed themselves at polling locations because poll workers have refused, um, voters to vote. And I worry with these changes that, that the possibility of poll workers will continue to re, to reject, um, their ba their own ballots coming in. Um, again, I emphasize that this doesn't just harm our voting system, but it, the continuation of changing our voting code and, and trying to get the information out just confuses voters overall. And, um, and I will be voting no on this, so thank

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I really appreciate, um, the sponsor of the bill taking so many questions earlier today, taking questions, taking questions again, and then taking so many questions, um, here today. And I feel like he's really tried to work with people and I really am encouraged by the promise that there isn't going to be a financial burden put on the county clerks and the cities and whoever's going to be, uh, rolling this out. So that's important to me and, and I'm glad that we've thought of that and that we're not trying to make an inconvenience because as was mentioned, there is fear. And when I've heard from people that have been contacting me today, they've been saying, please, please, ID so that we can have more secure elections. And I feel like this step shows the people that we do want to have integrity in our elections. And it's, I mean, I don't think it does them any good to say, oh no, it's all good. When they are so worried, I think we say, no, we're happy to take steps. And the thing that really I think kind of took me to what is going to be I think a yes vote tonight for this bill is that someone speaking in opposition to the bill said that we Id to vote already. So then I say to myself, well, then it's not really different, right? And they said it's superfluous and it doesn't do any harm. So if it's, so, if it's superfluous and it doesn't do any harm, why is there so much opposition to it? That's, that's the part I don't understand. And so I think I'm gonna err on the side on this one. Hopefully it's not an air, but I'm gonna go onto the side of, um, the people need to feel secure. They need to know that we care about the strength in those elections. And, and I think that that's probably gonna be more important than, um, sadly some of the changes that are and inconveniences that might have to be made. I, I've gotta go with the principle on that. Thank

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just wanna reiterate that there's some areas of the state in the rural areas where there's already been a ton of money and a lot of work put into existing voting, uh, drop boxes, cameras, uh, so on and so forth. And, and now we're going to require 24 7 manned with cameras, people to identify with IDs and so forth. I'm pleased that the sponsor has said this is going to a 2028 effective date, 29th. I'm pleased that he has promised that the state will reimburse the counties for any expenses that they have. Let's not be like the feds are to us. Let's be honest and forthright with our counties and be good stewards to them. And let's, let's make this correct to the people that we represent. Thank you, Mr.

Yeah, thank you. And, and thank you so much for your, your hard work, uh, committee and for the citizens. I, I love the citizens of this state regardless of whether we agree or disagree. Uh, um, I absolutely love everyone in this state, and anybody who knows me knows that's true. I've spent my life with the people of all walks of life. And in fact, I've encouraged people who think differently than me to be my friends because they help me see when I'm, I got blind spots. Uh, I believe, uh, in voter integrity, voter security, and election security. Uh, the effective date for this would be 2029. Just to make it clear, we have three years to get ready. We are committed to make sure that the funds are there to get this done. Um, and I would just, uh, really appreciate your support of this bill. Thank you.

Well, thank you, Mr. Chair. And, uh, I appreciate all the work that's gone into this. The, the most fundamental thing that we can do as it relates to the relationship of us with our country is to vote. And in my mind, it's critical that people know who vote that only those eligible and, and available to vote, vote, and that when they do make that choice at the ballot box, that it counts. And we have seen in audit after audit that while in large part our elections are fair, open, and transparent, there is need for improvement, and that there are votes because of some signature mishaps that haven't counted, and that there are individuals who should not have voted in the first place. Um, I, I believe that wouldn't change anything in the outcome, but I don't believe that everybody believes that way. And a system like this reinstalls in us confidence in our system because it allows the person with the ballot and the ID that proves who they are to be married together in one location and then after that, for that vote to count. And I think that's the expectation our constituents placed upon us. Um, and I think that's core to who we are as a country. So, I, uh, I appreciate this bill. I think it's going to, if nothing else, it's going to restore confidence in our electoral systems, which we need desperately at this time. And for those reasons, if no, if and many others, I'd encourage my colleagues to vote yes on this. Thank you.

Alright, thank you Mr. Chair. I have a feeling you all have heard about this bill. I'm happy to, uh, be able to present it to you today. Uh, the genesis of the bill is from, uh, surveys and, uh, discussions we've had over the interim with, uh, with a lot of folks in all walks of life. Uh, third substitute house Bill, 4 7 9 election code modifications. Uh, first and foremost, I need to point out per preserves vote by mail, uh, you can still receive and return the ballot, uh, by mail if you opt in every eight years with your driver's license renewal. And this bill may be small, but it adds, uh, hunting, fishing license renewal is also an opportunity to, to, uh, re-up your vote by mail. You can do that, uh, for the rest of your life. Uh, this bill simply adds a second option, and that is to receive your ballot in the mail. And then when you've completed, uh, discussing it with loved ones or whoever you want to talk about it with and, and completed it and sealed the envelope, you must then take that envelope to a Dropbox and show ID to turn it in. And this, uh, second option in this bill also requires opt-in. It's not, uh, required for anybody to do this. They have to want to do it. And then the third method of voting that we currently have is polling stations and vote in person. And those who don't opt in for vote by mail or for the Dropbox ballot, uh, option, uh, have that option to, uh, go to a polling station as we, as we used to do, uh, Piute research poll shows 83% of Americans surveyed believe you should show ID when you vote. Uh, 77% of Utah Republicans that were polled, uh, also believe that you should be required to show ID when you vote. And 53% of all voters in Utah who are surveyed believe you should show ID when you vote, uh, while vote by mail is not convenient or, or is not perfect, it is convenient. Uh, I wanna point out some of the problems real quick that we had with the election audit of December, 2024. Uh, 1400 deceased voters were on the voter rolls. 700 of deceased voters were still active voters and received ballots. 300 voters, uh, had been issued, uh, two voter ID numbers and some voted twice. I think in the last committee I made the error of saying 300 dead people voted. That wasn't accurate. Only about three dead people, we, we caught voted. Uh, but, but 300 voters did have, uh, two voter IDs. And finally, 450 voters shared a driver's license number with another voter. Uh, so some fraud does exist. It's not on large scale, but those who are committed to election security and who want to go in and show their ID when they vote, have that option in this bill. Uh, and finally, I'll just say we had way too many votes that were not counted in the 2024 general election because the signatures could not be cured. And so my contention is signatures are not a good form of id. Uh, that ID is id. And, uh, with that, I'll, I'll stop and be open to questions.

Thank you. Um, I'm gonna reserve the right to make, make, make a motion and I wanna just talk through, talk through this bill. Um, there, there are a lot of folks here that, um, want, want to hear this, hear this bill today and speak to it both on both for and against. And I just wanna thank the bill sponsor. He's been working on this all session, and it's been a, it's been a difficult, it's been a difficult bill, um, a as, as I've had a chance to work on this and work with my colleagues in, in the Senate. Um, I, I think, I think there are a lot of things you're trying to accomplish. I think there's a lot of support for, but I also think that logistically I think we're still concerned that how do we, how do we, um, move forward and implement some of the things that are recommended in this bill? And I know some of the clerks are here, and, and I think they probably have some of those concerns, but I, I, I know this bill comes from a place of, of sincerity. I think Representative Burton is exactly right that the vast, vast majority of people want, want strong, strong elections with, with voter id. And it's something we, we worked on hard and, and I, and I think representative, I think you lost a lot of sleep last session. I think we both did working on house bill 300. I think you landed a really, a really good bill. Um, but I, I think there's still some things that we, we need, we need to work on, um, it on, on this bill. And for that, I'm just gonna make, I'm gonna make a motion that, um, with, with all due respect and appreciation that we move on to the, onto the next bill on the agenda today.

Second substitute house bill 4 79. Election code modifications by Representative Burton. This bill was heard in public utilities and energy with the vote of 8 3 1.

Thank you Mr. Speaker. Motion to adopt third substitute.

Yes, I would. Thank you. Uh, it simply on lines 11 47, 11 72, it describes the process whereby a voter, uh, may request a vote by mail when filling out an application for a hunting or fishing license.

Alright, thank you Ms. Speaker. Uh, motion to circle this. Bill

Uh, yeah, I want, I wanna have some time for the sub to sit over the weekend and, and I'm talking to, uh, representatives on, uh, uh, how they're gonna vote. So I have some work to do.

Thank you Mr. Speaker. Motion to adopt third substitute.

Yes, I would. Thank you. Uh, it simply on lines 11 47, 11 72, it describes the process whereby a voter, uh, may request a vote by mail when filling out an application for a hunting or fishing license.

Alright, thank you Ms. Speaker. Uh, motion to circle this. Bill

Uh, yeah, I want, I wanna have some time for the sub to sit over the weekend and, and I'm talking to, uh, representatives on, uh, uh, how they're gonna vote. So I have some work to do.

Thank you Mr. Speaker. Uh, in, in polls and many of them have been taken locally and nationally, 83% of Americans support showing photo ID to vote. And that was a, a Piute research, uh, center poll was just conducted. We did some here in Utah that also showed that overwhelmingly, uh, citizens, uh, believe that you should show ID to vote. Uh, house Bill 4 79. In spite of many things that have been said about it does one thing essentially. Uh, it, it does preserve the right to vote by mail. Doesn't change that at all in the state. But what it does do is offer up another option to, uh, vote, which allows you to receive your ballot in the mail. Uh, look it over, have the time to, uh, make a decision, seal it, and then take that envelope into a Dropbox location and show your ID when you drop it off. That's what the bill does. Uh, and, and that's an opt-in as well. So folks have to have a desire to show the ID and opt in. Um, the cost, the fiscal note, I will point out that the original fiscal note turned in was exceptionally, uh, outta whack and high. We sat down and very carefully worked those numbers again, uh, with LFA and with, uh, internally here with staff. And the, the cost for that is between 621001.7 million to local government. And obviously this bill would not be adopted without the funding to make that happen. Um, I think I need to point out it is pretty clear, uh, there, there may be some, uh, disagreement, uh, with some in the community. But the bottom line is the, the audit that was conducted in December, 2024 on elections did indicate some areas of concern. Uh, we had 1400 deceased voters, uh, listed on voter rolls. We had 700 of those voters that were still listed as active voters and received, uh, ballots in the mail. Some of them voted, it was a small number, a two or three, but the bottom line is that shouldn't happen. We had 300 voters that had two voter IDs issued to them and some of them voted twice. We have 450 voters on the rolls who share a driver's license number with another voter. That should not be happening either. Uh, so fraud has existed in our current procedure, though not large, it's enough to create concern. Uh, bottom line, dead voters can't show up and vote and present their ID in person. And that's why that's a preferred methodology. And finally, um, and I've mentioned this before, 22,000 votes in the general election for 2024 were not counted because the signatures couldn't be cured. Signatures are not ID IDs id. So this bill simply gives voters a chance to, to go and show their ID if they opt in to do so. And with that, I'm open for questions.

Thank you Mr. Speaker. Um, I did a little research on these issues this weekend. Uh, I Uintah my favorite website for the Heritage Foundation that lists by state the amount of electoral fraud. Uh, Utah listed three instances of voter fraud conviction from 1982 to 2025. Three. Every audit that we have seen done, whether by OLA or the state auditor, comes back with similar numbers. This is a very small problem. Recent polls show that 60 per 66% of Utahans prefer to vote by mail, and that's the method they use for our elections. Going back to the audits in 2024, OLA performed an audit of Utah's election systems. Uh, the official title was Strengthening Election Integrity. The changes in this bill were not mentioned in the audit colleagues Last year, we passed a wide sweeping electoral bill in HB 300. We have not even seen the consequences of that bill put into place. I don't think a municipal election is enough to see what the effects of that bill are. While I appreciate the good sponsor and his work in strengthening our elections, I think we are piling on too much too fast without seeing the effects of the policies we're putting into place. And I will be voting no because of that and would ask you to join me in doing so. Thank you.

Thank commissioner Speaker. Will the sponsor guilty of question Representative Burton will yield

to a question? Yes. Yes, representative.

I'm reading the third substitute. Um, uh, I understood that the purpose was to create another way of doing this. And it, it makes sense to me that if I was worried about my signature being matched or not matched or whatever, that this would create sort of like a fast cast approach to make sure that my ballot is counted, I show my ID and nobody has to check my signature off it goes. Uh, for those people who for whatever reason need to go to a Dropbox at 11:00 PM when there's nobody there, is that, would that still be an option under the third sub? Uh, so is there still an option to do dropping off a ballot and not showing your ID and having your signature verified?

No. Okay. But you can drop that off to the county clerk's office or at a polling station.

Okay. Great. Thank you Mr. Speaker.

Thank you Mr. Speaker. Will the sponsor yield to a question?

Representative Burton, will you yield? Yes. Yes. Representative Moss.

Thank you. Um, I heard from a number of people that were concerned about their elderly parent or people with disabilities having access to vote because they can't get to a Dropbox. And I use my late mother as an example, when she was in her nineties and in assisted living, I would either mail her ballot or take it to a Dropbox. But I don't know if she had id, I honestly don't know. My stepfather died some years before. She hadn't driven for years. What about a person in that situation? What, what would they be able to use for ID and would they still be able to vote? We've always required ID when we vote. Um, people that are in firm, I've said this many times, it's in code right now. They can vote electronically. They just simply need to contact the clerk's office. They'll get a link to vote that way. This is in code for people that are in rest homes or not, uh, mobile and, uh, unable to to get out. Additionally, this bill doesn't require anyone to use a Dropbox. It requires those who opt in to do so. Thank you. Thank you

Yes, thank you. Will the sponsor yield to a question? Representative Burton, will you yield to a question? Yes, Mr. Speaker? Yes. Representative Dominguez. Thank You. Do we know how much this will increase for cities and towns and rural areas in cost for them.

Um, so here, here's the way this will work. Folks have to opt in to either vote by mail on the receiving and return end, or to vote in this way, uh, get the ballot mailed to them, and then drop at a Dropbox. Uh, when they're done with it, uh, the clerks are going to have visibility on how many people have chosen that option, uh, fairly, uh, soon before the election. So they will determine, and, and we want them to have maximum flexibility to determine how many drop boxes they will need in their county based on the number of people who opted in, uh, to do that. And, uh, we understand there may be a cost to that, and that's why we've, uh, prepared the fiscal note to, to cover that. But again, uh, they'll know ahead of time and be able to place those boxes strategically.

Thank you so much. I have been, um, contacted by many cities and towns within my district about the increased costs that this will have, um, an adverse effect to their cities. Um, not, not only to the drop boxes, but to those manning the drop boxes. And my concern is have been on the city council, those increases flex and change, and citizens, um, within our cities will have to be the brunt of the pay of paying that cost. Um, I also want to mention that when we change our municipal, when we change our code for voting, we, we inherently, um, sorry. We inherently confuse voters on what the process is and what that looks like. And we've had much success with our mail-in voting, um, and, and had very much praise throughout the nation for what we have done right in Utah and, and really doing it the Utah way. And this historically in our nation, this, this, this type of legislation. And anything when it comes to suppress the vote is exactly that, is suppressing the vote. And I worry that not only are cities and towns gonna have to pay for this, but we as voters are gonna have be limited on how we vote, what that looks like, who we are confronting at the polls, um, having to have attorneys to advocate for us to be able to vote. Um, so I urge you all to vote no with me. Thank you. Was there a question there, Mr. Speaker? I didn't hear a question at the end. I, no, I had the question at the beginning. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the sponsor yield to a question? Representative Burton, will you yield?

I will, Yes. Representative Sheen.

Um, can you tell me how many years ago it was that we had one way to vote and that was to stand in line?

That was about six years ago, Mr. Speaker.

And second question, how, how many options does this offer us? Now?

We'll have, uh, three options, uh, based on this bill. The first is, uh, doesn't change vote by mail. You can, uh, opt in to do that every eight years with your driver's license renewal. The second way that's, uh, pointed out in this bill is you can still opt in to receive your ballot in the mail, but you return it to a Dropbox with your id. And the third way, if you opt in for nothing, is to show up to the polling station and vote as we've always done with your id.

Thank you. I appreciate you, uh, running this bill. It opens up many more options for people to be able to vote. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair with the sponsor. Yield to a question, please. Representative Burton, will you yield to a question?

I will, yes. Representative Strong,

Thank you. Uh, so what are the different ways to opt in? I know you have to opt in every eight years, but what locations or ways can I do that?

Yeah, we've tried to make it as simple as possible, Mr. Speaker. Um, you can opt in when renewing your driver's license or state ID card. You can opt in when buying a hunting or fishing license. That was the third sub. Uh, you can, you can go to the county clerk's office. Uh, so, and, and I I will point out that these provisions take effect, uh, in 2029 following the next, uh, general presidential election. So, uh, folks have plenty of time to prepare for this.

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Uh, I support this bill. Uh, it gives an option. It's not mandatory, it's an option. And for those who are concerned about the cost of this, you know, it used to be when you voted in person, it was way expensive. Nobody seemed to complain about that, but, uh, but this, uh, this fiscal vote I think's a little high too because I, I'm pretty sure that it, it, it, uh, calculates having to hire people to watch the, the, uh, voting boxes. And I think that the cities and the county are gonna get creative and do what was done in the past where they, uh, where they train volunteers to do that, and it cuts the cost way down. So I think they'll be inventive about that. But in case they don't, I, I think the sponsors, uh, of the bill has made arrangements to fund that. So I support the bill.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the sponsor yield to A question? Representative Burton, will you yield to a question?

I will, Yes. Representative Cutler, thank, thank you.

I appreciate the, uh, the efforts the sponsors made to keep, uh, vote by mail available. Uh, my question is in related to in-person voting, in the past, some, uh, some counties have had challenges where the number of voters checked in, uh, using some form of ID does not match the number of cast ballots. Is there anything in this bill that will help us improve the differences we've seen, uh, and the challenges we've seen for this in-person voting and where the number of voters checked in does not match the cast ballots?

That's a very good question. I'm not sure I have the answer to it, but I can tell you, uh, representative that, uh, what this bill will do is improve some of the numbers from the audit in December, 2024. And if, and I, and I cited those, I encourage you to read it. I'm sure knowing you that you have, uh, but, uh, some of the problems that we have with, uh, people with, with dual voter ID numbers, people sharing driver's license numbers, voting in person would solve that. It would also solve, uh, the issue we have with deceased voters receiving ballots and, and voting packets. So for that reason, I think this bill makes some sense.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Uh, I think, uh, I appreciate the good sponsor its efforts to improve, uh, voter security and elections in Utah. I, I think reasonable people can disagree on whether the, the cost of doing this in terms of time and money is, is worth the small incremental, the, the incremental improvement, uh, on, on, uh, to our elections. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I, I just wanted to take a moment and, and rise in support of this bill and Mr. Speaker, if I could maybe revive remind the body of a few key facts. We, we live in a system for whatever reason where there has been doubt interjected into our elections. Now, I personally think every election in the state of Utah has been fair and transparent, but our system only exists if people believe that when they vote that it counts. And that only that each person who is entitled to vote only votes once. Now, the good sponsor has been, you could really say, oh, a year plus on navigating this policy. And we have seen the question related to the, the provisions in this bill asked among the public. And among those polled, 53% supported this policy in the broader world, in this state, 80 plus percent support having some form of voter id. This bill gives us a runway to absorb or figure out the costs not coming into effect until 2029. These are the things that our constituents are asking of us colleagues. They're asking us to be reasonable, which is what the time allowance gives us. They're asking us to be fair, which is what the voter ID provisions allow us. And they are, they're asking us to be transparent, which is what all of these provisions in totality give us. So I, I appreciate the good sponsor's work on this. I appreciate the time that he has spent to this, uh, finding a way through this policy. And I would encourage the body to vote. Yes. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I don't know if anyone knows this, 'cause I haven't mentioned it a few times here on the floor, but I used to work in Utah County and I worked for the commission, and I actually, uh, our portfolio included the clerk, and I was able to spend a lot of time in the clerk's office reviewing and seeing the processes and considering improvements. I wanna just mention about the time, the amount of time it takes to do this signature verification process, the amount of time that it takes for the entire process. This will eliminate where people choose to come in. And we called it Fast cast in Utah County. It will, when they choose to come in and drop their box, because I've done this, I've done it twice, and some other members of my family have done it too. I know that I'm contributing to savings over at the county. I know that I am presenting my ID and I'm able to just turn my ballot in and it eliminates all the backend cost. So I really want you to consider that, uh, as a good representative from Centerville mentioned that there was a little bit of an issue in one of 'em for, I think it was 17. It might have been 17 ballots, uh, that was resolved. Uh, and they made fixes on that for the process later. So I have used this fast cast method and I greatly appreciate it, and I'm really grateful that the good sponsor from Spanish Fork Area was able to take care of this and put this in, in this bill. So I'll be supportive of it. Thank you very much.

Further discussion to the bill Representative Monson. Thank You, Mr. Speaker. Um, I represent a district that's very rural and very remote. And initially, when, when hearing about this bill and, and learning of it, I, I was, um, concerned that there would be some limitations to voting. But after, after being able to read the bill and, and understand what's going on, I, I rise in support of the bill. I think that this is a good option to provide multiple options for people to vote. If, if anyone wants to stay voting by mail, they, they can do that. If they want to go in person, they, they get to do that. But the key piece to me is that we provide confidence in our, in our elections. And if we don't have confidence in our elections, if they're, um, not trusted, we, we can't move forward. We can't have the buy-in of the people. So the, the piece that's the most important to me is the id, regardless of of how you vote, you still have to provide your id. And I think that that's critical and I thank the sponsor for, um, working on this and providing options so that people can vote how they want as long as they provide an id. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Thank you, Representative Monson.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. And, uh, thanks to my colleagues. You know, this is, uh, we have a lot of emotional issues on this, uh, house floor. I appreciate the free flow of discussion, uh, the opinions. But I will just say off the top, uh, we represent all of our voters, not just the ones we agree with. And, uh, based on, on polling here in the state, it's been mentioned 53% of all voters in this state believe you should show ID when you vote. So it, uh, was a no-brainer to make an opportunity for those who want to use that option to do so. I do not categorically deny, uh, when I hear this voter suppression stuff, uh, this bill does not do that. It allows people to vote the way that they choose, but it increases the number of folks showing their ID and reducing some of the challenges we had in our last, uh, audit. And I think all of us want to do that. And so with that, uh, I would encourage you to support this bill. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.