H.B. 531 Scarification Amendments: transcript

Welcome to our committee. Well, Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. Welcome. Um, I do, um, if it's appropriate, I do have a handout to pass that, if I may. Yeah, that's fine. It is folded in half because it's a little bit grody, so just don't look at it if you don't want. I saw it already. It's just, it's okay. It's, It's okay for nurses. I dunno. I know, but I am a nurse. So natural. Yeah. Um, So Madam Chair and Committee last year, um, this body passed a bill, um, where we gave, uh, department of Health, uh, health and Human Services, rulemaking authority over body art facilities. And, um, in those definitions, we included, you know, tattooing, microblading, um, and scarification. So for, um, when we were drafting the bill last, um, the LA last year, we, I don't think had a, an accurate understanding of what, um, some people were, um, were defining as, as scarification. Um, we, the, the, uh, image that we had in our brain was, um, was vastly different than what we were seeing in practice. And so over the summer, um, the Department of Health and Human Services had reached out and to just say, Hey, like, we, we have the ability to inspect these facilities and, um, and certify that they're safe. But this is above and beyond kind of what we feel comfortable with, because it isn't, um, it, we can't, it's, it's not a regulated practice. There's no license, there's no certification that's required to, um, to perform the, uh, the procedures that, that you guys are looking at. Um, and so we wanted to make sure that if, you know, if people want to be doing this, that's, that's fine there. That's their body. They can do whatever they'd like, but we wanna make sure that they're doing it with some guardrails for safety, um, to prevent infection and, and other things like that. So, um, what this bill will do is just kind of put, like I said, some guardrails around it. A couple things like making sure that, um, that this work is being performed in a designated enclosed room. Um, that there's, um, specifications as far as like single use tools and sanitation guidelines, um, giving, uh, verifying age. 'cause we obviously, we don't want, you know, 16 year olds, um, or, or, or younger, um, participating in this. Um, and I think, I think that's about it, but just, I'm happy to answer any questions. I do not proclaim to be an expert, obviously. 'cause I didn't know what this was when we were writing a law about it last year. So, um, but I'm happy to answer any questions that the committee has, and that's That. All

Thank you, Madam Chair. Um, so to be clear, you can't do this under age 18, is that right?

Um, with, well, right now it's not necessarily regulated at all, but in, in this bill, we don't want anybody under 18. Yes, correct.

Okay. So 18 is the Correct. Okay. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Um, I have a, just a quick question. Has the, was, has the health department seen any kind of infections or anything coming from these, or were kind of preemptively trying to get Ahead at the game? I know that they're online waiting to speak about this, so they would be able to answer that better than I, than I, when, when we opened up the discussion over the summer, I, it's my understanding that they hadn't yet. But I mean, as you can see, if they're scooping out globs of skin, we can imagine that there are instances where it's happened or, or is bound to happen if, if we aren't careful. So,

Thank you. Thank you. Chair and and committee. Uh, my name is Braden. Bradford. I'm the health officer for the Southeast Utah Health Department. Um, and I'm, I'm here representing the, uh, association of Local Health Departments. Um, so, um, I have appreciated, I've been in, involved in a discussion with the representative, and I know several other health officers have, have as well. Um, this is a pretty unique topic and, uh, I think presents, um, uh, us with, with some, uh, you know, questions that we, that are, that have been new to us as well. And, and in answer to, to your question, I think it's new enough that I don't know of any documented, um, you know, serious infection. We, we, we are worried. We've seen those same pictures and, and kind of worried about it. That's why we're, we're grateful. We, we think this, uh, bill is a step in the right direction to create some, some boundaries around, around this process and, and get us closer to where we, we would ultimately, uh, like to be. So, um, yeah, we we're supportive of, of the direction that this is headed.

Thank you Madam Chair. I'd like to make a motion to pass out favorably house Bill 5 31 Scarification Amendments. I think we might be waiting for an amendment. Oh, it's, oh, Okay. It's on now, so it lemme it just came, came on. So maybe let's, lemme refresh. Re Okay. How, Draw that motion and do a different one. Okay. I've, when I click on the click, the, it says page not found. So I, if I may miss Madame Chair. The, the amendment is what, um, adds that the age restriction in there. Okay. That we, that we kind of go, missed the first go round. So, Okay. So I'm just gonna call a point of order on myself then and say, since I can't see the amendment online yet, do we need to wait a minute or We, is the committee okay with me making a motion to pass the amendment? I can see it. I have refreshed it several times. Okay. It just keeps saying that the page is not found. Oh, wait, wait. There it is. I would like to make a motion to adopt amendment one to house bill 5 31 scarification amendments.

Uh, no. I'll wave. All right. Okay.

Explained it. Oh, no, I appreciate, sorry, I forgot about That. No worries,

I do. Thank you. We'll get this right. I apologize. Representative, I would like to make a motion to pass favorably house Bill 5 31 as amended scarification amendments.

Um, I appreciate you folding this before, giving it to me and the warning beforehand. Um, this is, there is so much potential for harm in this, and I really appreciate you being present to it and carefully crafting policy that is not overly burdensome, but recognizing, recognizing the risk. And, um, thank you for sponsoring the bill.

Nope. I appreciate the support of the committee.

Oops. Thank you. Chair and committee. Um, I'll actually be speaking to the third substitute.

Um, I'll be speaking to the third substitute.

Well, thank you. Um, so the legislature, a couple years ago, we passed, um, we passed the law pertaining to body art. Oh, I'm so sorry. Better there it is. Um, which, uh, gave the Department of Health and Human Services, um, the ability to create some minimum safety standards for, for body art, which included, um, tattoos, um, microblading, scarification. Um, and as the local health departments went in and were, um, inspecting these facilities, um, they found that that, um, in some instances, um, scarification, uh, was being performed in a way that was different than what we had, um, imagined it when, when, uh, when we put it in the body art category. So, um, for those who aren't familiar, so a tattoo, they, you know, you, you have a needle that is injecting ink and, and makes a beautiful picture in your skin. Um, but for our brothers and sisters that have darker skin, ink doesn't show up. So, um, in, in a lot of cases, they'll use, um, a blade to, to kind of carve in the design that, that, that they want to have. So the scars show up and, and you can see the picture. But, um, anyway, so because the health departments don't really, um, don't really manage the, the people that are performing these procedures, they're just inspecting and certifying the spaces. Um, they thought it would be more appropriate if we had, um, more specific, um, standards for this practice within, within these facilities. And so here we are. HB 5 31. Um, there was an amendment, uh, or excuse me, in addition with the third substitute, um, by Chair Grover, um, that just included that the, um, the Office of Professional Licensure will review. Um, we will review the practice and break back recommendations to the legislature, um, if they feel that a certification or a license is appropriate to, um, for those people that are performing these procedures. So that is my presentation. I'm open to any questions.

Um, Mr. Make a motion that we favorably recommend third substitute HB 5 31.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Um, folks, last legislative session, we passed a bill related to body art, um, where we gave rulemaking authority to the health departments to, um, create some basic sanitation standards. Um, and in with tattooing and microblading, we had included scarification, um, in, in that, uh, umbrella of things that were to be, um, inspected and, um, and watched. Um, but what we found over the summer, um, I was reached out to, um, by the, uh, local health departments and as they were inspecting these facilities that are performing body art, um, what the interpretation of what our interpretation of scarification was, um, was not what was being practiced in real life. Um, and the health departments felt like they were not, um, that what was being performed was kind of outside of the scope of what they were able to, to manage. Um, I did have a handout, but because it is right after lunch, and I don't know who's squeamish or not, um, I don't have that for you, but if you would like to see photos, um, I'm happy to show you what the health departments are, are seeing. Um, so anyway, what this bill does is it, um, it moves it out of the body Art umbrella gives its its own set of rules, um, and says that if people are going to go in and, and get this procedure done, that's fine. That's, that's totally up to them. But, um, it, it will have its own set of sanitation guidelines to follow. And I, I think I'm open to questions.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Motion to adopt. First substitute.

I'll waive. Thank you, representative Arthur.

I did not realize that we hadn't already done that, so I appreciate the help from a friend.

Let me look what it is first and then Yes, I would love to. Oh, oh, sorry. Yes, I remember now. Um, all we did was we, um, and I swear we did this in committee, I apologize. But what we did was we just, uh, specified that this is not to be performed on people under the age of 18 specifically. Um, and there is, we changed it, um, the, the penalties to be more in line with other sections of code and similar, similar instances.

of, on your motion to adopt first substitute HB 5 31. Thank You, Mr. Speaker. All waive.

Thank you Mr. Speaker with the sponsor yield to a question.

Okay. Yes. Representative Cutler,

This appears to, uh, provide additional protection for, for minors when it comes to tattoos or other scarring modifications. Is, is that, is my understanding correct.

Um, from, well, my interpretation and my intent. So hopefully this is what is, uh, being applied here. Um, scarification should be under its own set of, uh, of rules and, and guidelines. So tattooing is still in its own body art category, um, or excuse me, within the body art category with microblading and other things. And then scarification would be in its own category. Is is the intent? Yes.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. For those of us who aren't familiar with scarification, what's the difference between scarification and tattooing?

Sure. So, um, tattooing is done on the very first layer of skin and where they're just inserting ink. They're, they're putting ink into your body. Whereas scarification, the pictures that we have, um, they're carving out, um, several layers of skin, um, exposing the under layers. It's very, um, it's a very niche thing. I think, um, like I, the pictures that I have will describe it much better. Um, but, but it is, it, it's actually removing flesh with the intention of creating a scar in whatever design or pattern it, uh, the, the person is, is requesting.

Okay. Thanks. Bye.

Uh, no. I just, uh, this is something that the health departments had had asked that we incorporate just to help, um, keep, keep people safe. If they, if they want to go in and have these procedures done, they're more than happy to do it. But, um, for risk of infection and nerve damage and other things like that, they just wanted to have minimum basic safety protocols, um, to protect people. So I appreciate the support of the body.

I'll waive. Thank you, representative Arthur.

Let me look what it is first and then Yes, I would love to. Oh, oh, sorry. Yes, I remember now. Um, all we did was we, um, and I swear we did this in committee, I apologize. But what we did was we just, uh, specified that this is not to be performed on people under the age of 18 specifically. Um, and there is, we changed it, um, the, the penalties to be more in line with other sections of code and similar, similar instances.

You, Mr. Speaker. All waive.

Thank you Mr. Speaker with the sponsor yield to a question.

This appears to, uh, provide additional protection for, for minors when it comes to tattoos or other scarring modifications. Is, is that, is my understanding correct.

Um, from, well, my interpretation and my intent. So hopefully this is what is, uh, being applied here. Um, scarification should be under its own set of, uh, of rules and, and guidelines. So tattooing is still in its own body art category, um, or excuse me, within the body art category with microblading and other things. And then scarification would be in its own category. Is is the intent? Yes.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. For those of us who aren't familiar with scarification, what's the difference between scarification and tattooing?

Sure. So, um, tattooing is done on the very first layer of skin and where they're just inserting ink. They're, they're putting ink into your body. Whereas scarification, the pictures that we have, um, they're carving out, um, several layers of skin, um, exposing the under layers. It's very, um, it's a very niche thing. I think, um, like I, the pictures that I have will describe it much better. Um, but, but it is, it, it's actually removing flesh with the intention of creating a scar in whatever design or pattern it, uh, the, the person is, is requesting.

Okay. Thanks. Bye.

Uh, no. I just, uh, this is something that the health departments had had asked that we incorporate just to help, um, keep, keep people safe. If they, if they want to go in and have these procedures done, they're more than happy to do it. But, um, for risk of infection and nerve damage and other things like that, they just wanted to have minimum basic safety protocols, um, to protect people. So I appreciate the support of the body.

Senator Kwan. Thank you Mr. President. This was a, uh, issue that the health department brought to us and last year we put in safety stand, uh, safety standards. This year we're putting additional safety standards on the facilities, uh, for safety. It this bill also makes it unlawful to perform scarification on a minor and it directs LER to review the practice. That concludes my presentation. Thank you. Looking for discussion to your bill.

Thank you. Will the sponsor You'll do a question. Senator Kwan, will you yell? Yes, I am. Go ahead.

Senator Ml, I'm genuinely curious. What is scarification?

Senator Kwan. Thank you. I'm going to answer that with a, with a question. I'm wondering, uh, if he really wants to know there are pictures, but I will. Senator, Senator ml, do you really wanna know? I'm gonna take this conversation offline clearly.

Thank you. I waive And call the question. Thank you.

McKay. Motion to circle. Motion

Senator McKay. Motion to circle.

Senator McKay. Thank you Mr. President. Motion to substitute Motion to substitutes an order.

Thank you. We're gonna substitute with,

You Mr. Speaker. Motion to concur.

Sure. Um, the Senate felt more comfortable given the, uh, nature of the beast, so to speak, if, uh, LER would take a look at this profession and see if it's something that needed, um, additional guardrails.