H.B. 561 Use of Motorized Vehicles by Minors Amendments: transcript

Yes. Uh, which thank you for, remind me because I know that I will forget. Um, but, so yes, if the committee would move those at the appropriate time, I'll be speaking to the bill, assuming that it's already amended. Can you pull that mic up a little closer? Sure. Is that better? Yeah, Much better. Okay, perfect. Um, thank you Chair and committee. I know, um, it's growing increasingly more difficult to be in two places at once. So I appreciate your, your, um, flexibility. This morning I have with me Officer Old Angie, officer Angie Oldham, um, to kind of give the, uh, professional, I guess, um, experience for this. 'cause I know that last year we, we discuss this pretty, pretty in depth. And I know that a lot of, um, last year's version of this bill kind of sucked in inadvertently, like the e-bikes and, and motorized scooters and all these other things. So thankfully, because of the work of a representative Koler and, and all the work that he did in kind of creating the specifications of all those other pieces, um, our bill this year, I feel like is a lot more clean and straightforward. Um, basically what it does is it just specifies that even those little, uh, the mini motorcycle bikes, the pocket bikes that we've seen are all going to be categorized as motorcycles and treated as such by law enforcement. Um, which they generally are anyway. But this just kind of gives our officers, um, more of a mechanism and a tool to be able to enforce the laws that are already there. So, um, in, in my community, in our community, and in many of your communities, um, we have, you know, 14 year olds, 13 year olds driving around on these mini motorcycles on state roads and in neighborhoods. And they are, because they're not licensed drivers and they haven't been through driver's ed, they don't know, you know, um, traffic laws and, and they're, I mean, quite frankly, just a little bit immature to be, um, operating anything on state routes. Um, we just wanted to make it very clear for parents and for law enforcement of how we can, um, how we can treat these when we see mountain streets. So if you, do you wanna talk about kind of what the, the little biker gangs, I guess that we have?

So I'm Detective Angie Oldham with Unified Police. I'm stationed in Kearns. Oh, can you hear me now? Can I pull up, Pull up, sorry. You can just drag the mic up. You can just pick it up and move it. So I'm Detective Angie Oldum with Unified Police in Kearns, and we have several groups of pocket bike riders that like to post on Instagram, Snapchat, Facebook about them fleeing from police when they get pulled over. Um, there was one kid that was, that crashed at 65 miles an hour and has some serious road rash. Oh, I have a picture of the, um, road rash on my computer. I also have a picture of a vehicle where a mini bike was fleeing police and slammed into the, the car causing injuries. There is a group, um, that says getting ready for 2026, and it shows several of them blocking the road and driving down the road at high speeds, weaving in and out of traffic. They go to parks and they do burnouts. They go on the grass and they rip up the grass at the parks and the schools, they do burnouts on the cement causing damage. They slam into buildings causing damage. They're just extremely reckless. A few of them do wear helmets. Yes. But a majority of them don't. And when we talk to the parents, the parents are like, it's no big deal. It is a big deal because these children, these teenagers, juveniles are riding their bikes and they're going to crash and possibly die. And that is what we're trying to stay away from. That. I, I mean, that's really it. I know we, we exhausted it last, last year.

So I, I will just open us up to any questions if Okay. That'd be Appropriate. We'll, we'll go to the committee for questions.

Yeah, thank you. As you know, I am very interested in this, as many communities struggle. Mine does as well. Um, I appreciate you bringing this forward once again. So I love that we're giving tools to officers. Um, are the, um, let's see, I think it's an infraction, right? For a child who violates mm-hmm. Um, is this a may or a shall or how, how are officers, um, once, if they, if they encounter a child on a bike, how does that interaction look? So, um, because of the discussions we had, um, last session, I know that we have, um, members of our body that, um, that are supportive of, you know, kids being able to, to raise these to school in the more rural communities. We did everything as a, as a may. So we are not, um, we are not instructing officers to utilize these tools. We are just giving them these tools to use if they, if they deem it to be appropriate. Thank you. I appreciate that. I think the, um, the feedback we got is, we did the mini motorcycles and the e-bikes, was that officers do need more tools, and I think giving them these tools is valuable for the communities that need it. Um, and for those that don't, it is a may. Um, so I appreciate you working with stakeholders and, and using the feedback. And I, I'm supportive. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. So, um, I I, I like this idea of, of amending the, the definition of motorcycle to include the mini motorcycle. Mm-hmm. So I'm trying, I'm I'm trying to understand, uh, are, are the, are the, uh, so a, a a a 15-year-old that got pulled over on a regular motorcycle versus a mini motorcycle versus a car, is this a, is this the same penalties for all of them? Or is it, have we just singled out this mini motorcycle? Does that make sense?

I think if I, well understanding, I, I didn't dabble in, um, in the section of code where would, where it would be a minor operating, like a regular vehicle. So I can't speak to that. But, um, from my understanding that yes, a 15-year-old operating a regular, like full-sized motorcycle would be treated the same as a 15-year-old operating a mini motorcycle with this bill. So, so if we, if we just add mini motorcycle to the motorcycle, why do we have to add any infraction kind? What, what, and there already, uh, uh, consequences for riding a motorcycle illegally. He, You might know better than I would, is What those look like. Um, a 15-year-old would have, um, excuse me, depending on his, their age, they would have to have a learner's permit and they would have to have someone riding with them.

Let's say a 13-year-old then. Okay. Yep. A 13-year-old still illegal riding a, there's, there's already penalties for a 13-year-old riding a, driving a car or driving a, a regular motorcycle. Why not just have the, the penalties for driving a 13 for a 13-year-old riding a mini, mini motorcycle match, those other things. Why, why is this sort of singled out?

I dunno what the penalties are for a 13 riding, We would impound the vehicle. So if a 13-year-old is riding a minibike or a motorcycle or a car, then we impound that vehicle and we talk to the parent.

So I'm not understanding Question. I apologize. So does this match, does match, does this match exactly what would happen in, in the other circumstances? Yes. That's perfect. Thank you. Sorry about that. I was gonna say, so thank you. Oh, yeah.

More to know I represent the Utah Association for Justice. And looking at the bill, it looks like when the parents that, um, if their child is riding one of these pocket motorcycles, then the parents can be convicted of a up to a Class B misdemeanor, which includes jail time. Does that mean that we're going to be, uh, arresting adults for their, for the kids that ride the electric motorcycles? Would be my main question.

I would say, um, so we have had discussions with members of this committee, and unfortunately that is something that, uh, is addressed in one of the amendments. I, if it were up to me, it would stay in. And yes, absolutely. If, if I am allowing my 14-year-old kid access to a mini motorcycle and they're driving around, I, I should be responsible. I'm responsible for my kids ultimately. So, so while that's something that I wish was staying, um, I don't believe that it is, uh, the appetite of this committee or the body at large, so that, um, from my understanding will be removed when it moves forward. But, So amendment two would take that out. It depends on the action of the committee. So we'll see how that goes.

And then my other question was with, um, the definitions by Senator Cutler's, bill for electric motorcycles. He has a specific definition for electric motorcycles versus a motorcycle, whereas these mini motorcycles, um, it would seemingly lump it together because it has the, the verbiage irrespective of what engine power it has electric or, um, internal combustion engine. It's still going to be defined and considered to be a motorcycle. So have you consulted with Senator Cutler on the definitions to make sure that they are all consistent? Because I, I worry that we have a couple of inconsistent definitions inside of these bills, such as that one. So

Mr. Chair, if I may, I think, um, as serendipitous, um, as it would be, I think the attorney that drafted both of those bills happens to be in this room, and maybe they might be a more appropriate for them to answer that question than, than Me. I appreciate that and, and I can put a fine point on it. Um, so the question's a little bit clearer, but the definition of motorcycle in your bill includes any mini motorcycle, regardless of the power of the engine. Whereas in Senator Cutler's bill, it says, if it's an electric motorcycle powered by electric power, then it's, um, has a separate definition and ramifications for it. Alright. So sometimes, and then sometimes in different bills, there are different, uh, definitions for the same thing. And so as it applies in this bill, it may also apply in his bill. Uh, and so if you're using an electric bike as a mini motorcycle, if it qualifies as a mini motorcycle, it would be subject to these, um, these regulations, uh, in other conditions that may be subject to the regulations are in, uh, representative Cutler's bill. That's the way I understand that. Is that, does that, does that sound right? I'll ask our legal analyst here.

Sorry. Rachel. Rachel Brooks, Paul's analyst with the Office of Legislative Root Legislative Research and General Counsel, um, not speaking for or against the bill. Um, I mean, I think I would just say that as bills go through the process, they often have definitions that conflict. And this is something that we figure out, uh, through the process. And I don't think, um, that should necessarily be a factor in the committee's weighing of Representative Matthews bill today. If there is an issue that needs to be resolved between her bill and Representative Cutler's bill, um, we, we will work that out.

And Mr. Chair, if I may, I, I think part of the reason why we're seeing this bill later in session, even though, I mean, we reopened the bill file as soon as, as soon as we were able to, but I, we knew that Representative Cutler was, was putting in the work, creating definitions and, and different classifications of things. And so that's why we kinda waited until afterwards, so, so that we didn't inadvertently cancel out what he was doing and, and vice versa. So we, we, I feel like we did a really good job of, of keeping them separate so that anything that didn't fall under, uh, the classifications that Representative Cutler put forward would, would fall into our category. But, But again, two different sections of code can have, uh, different definitions of the same term. So we can work that out. But I think, I think it's pretty clear for this, uh, this code that it can be powered. It doesn't matter how it's powered is, uh, the definition of mini motorcycle. Is that right? I that's my understanding, yes.

Yes. Thank you. Um, so my final concern is with the impugning negligence onto the child or the adult for a violation of this section in our, in our other laws that we have for infractions specifically, it will usually have a clause that says a violation of an infraction.

Hold, hold on a minute. There's a point of order. Uh, yeah. My Understanding of the process, um, Mr. Chairs, we don't answer questions from, he can state what he's thinking and, you know, have concerns, but it's not our role to answer his questions.

Mr. Chair, I'm not, I'm not in a debate of person here. All I'm saying he can ask all the questions he wants, but this isn't a, an ongoing conversation between us and the, and the individual who's participating. Okay. Thank you. Which Is the only reason why, Um, yeah.

Okay. Sounds good. Um, so the, the final point of concern was that in many of our other, um, laws that we have an infraction that we'll usually have a clause that says, um, violation of an infraction is not proof of ne or evidence of negligence per se. I just didn't see that in this, um, this proposed bill and wanted to, I guess, ask that that be included to say, a violation of this infraction isn't evidence of negligence per se, but it can be admitted for consideration of negligence. But, um, that's the clause that is typical in the other criminal statutes. If we can just make sure that it is included in this one. That's all. Okay. Thank you very much. Thanks for the time.

I would like to move, we adopt amendment one. I would actually like to move amendments one and two, but I probably, somebody will call point of order if I try to do that, so, Okay. One at a time. Okay.

Yes. Yes. And just for the committee's clarification and anybody else listening, um, what that amendment does is it, it includes a section on there, um, specifying that the parent needs to be notified if your kid's getting in trouble, basically.

uh, summation by the make a motion. Yeah, I think that's an important part of this. That's, that's part of the toolkit as the law enforcement officers. And this isn't, to me, this is shall that if, if you're gonna deal with somebody's kid, you need to let the parents know that you're dealing with their kids so that everybody's on the same page.

Uh, move that we adopt Amendment two and see how this goes.

Yeah. So Amendment two, uh, then the chair's name removes, um, the liability, the, the criminal liability of a parent for their child's acts in this specific case.

I think, uh, I think everybody knows kind of how I feel about that. It's, if it's, uh, necessary to, to pass it outta this committee, then that's appropriate. I think I, I take comfort, I guess, in knowing that either way, if, if, uh, I'm giving my kid access to something they shouldn't have access to and they get a ticket, I'm still gonna have to calm my butt down and, and pay the fee or get it out of impound and pay all the necessary fines. And, and so if that is their parents' punishment, then I guess that's better than nothing.

Thank you. I, I'm, I just wanna clarify again, so if a 13-year-old today was driving the parent's car, would the in, would the infractions that amendment that the second that the amendment two would take out, would a parent be held liable today if a 13-year-old Dr. If a 13-year-old kid was driving mom's car? I can't speak to that 'cause I, since I wasn't in that section of code, I dunno. But found my friend. So you're asking If I I, I know it doesn't, I know this doesn't change what happens in a car. I'm wanting to know is are we making this worse than driving a car by, by, by a kid driving a car? Or, or No, it would be The same other vehicle. Is this the, is It, uh, I, so he's asking, I'm not sure they understood the question, because if you're driving a car, Kids driving a car. So he's asking If looks like they're discussing that this part out Is everything Else. My point is this, I, I don't wanna make, I don't know that I wanna make this worse than driving a parent, than driving a car. I don't wanna be adding new, new penalties. So I want, I, I want to just make sure that the child is treated the same as they always have been and parents have been in the past. I, I do agree with making this a, uh, I like including this in the motorcycle, uh, category, but I don't want, I'm not looking to add new penalties.

Yeah, if it would be no different if the child was driving the car versus a minibike, the parents would still be notified. Um, depending on the situation, the minibike or the car would be impounded. The parents would have to get it out of impound. They would have to take their child to the court to deal with the citation. There would be no change,

But without the sec, the amendment two. 'cause the amendment two adds possible jail time, remove, that's, that's new stuff, right? It removes it removes it. New stuff. It removes it. Yes. But, but if we didn't remove it, that, that's a new penalty, right? It is. Okay. Thank you.

So I don't know if this is accurate because I'm asking the internet and chat. Um, it seems like if a child, if if a parent knowingly allows a child to take a car, then it is a Class D misdemeanor with a fine up to a thousand dollars and potential gel time. So it would, so it wouldn't be apples to apples. If so, that's just knowingly. Um, which is something we could, we could add knowingly in, but it's difficult to decipher, but, so it wouldn't be the same with the amendment.

So if, and so if what Representative Defay says is correct, we wouldn't need to add this to this because it's already in code. What happens if a child is riding a motorcycle? 'cause we've added this now to the motorcycle category. There's no need to have this here then the penalty's already outlined under the code for riding a motorcycle when you're not supposed to. I dunno if it's back to me yet, so I dunno.

Representative Romero, Mr. Chair, I think we're getting hung up on some stuff that could be figured out after. Right now we're, we're voting on an amendment, either vote no or yes. And so I think what your amendment's saying is like, if a parent willingly, um, knows that their child took this bike, then the bite could possibly be impounded. There's no other kind of infraction. That's my understanding of the amendment. Correct. Right. Okay. That's, that's what I wanted to clarify.

Sure. I would say, I think, um, the concerns the committee has is valid. We don't wanna make it different. But I believe with the bill that was passed outta this committee earlier this year, pertaining to unlicensed drivers, I think anybody that allows somebody access to their vehicle, knowing that they're unlicensed, already gives law enforcement the ability to charge that person. So even if we, if we take it out of our bill, I think the bill that we passed earlier will already cover that. So as a parent, if I give my kid access to something and they don't, don't have a license, then they're still going to be charged whether or not this amendment goes through. But I, that's my understanding, so,

Yeah, I, yeah. On this specific amendment, I, I do think, 'cause we have several bills that are out there. Representative Cutler's bill, the unlicensed driver bill, and there's other bills out there. I think for the sake of simplicity, it's better to pass amendment two. Sure. And let look to those other things for parental liability. And I think the sponsor mentioned, what I think is important is that you're, it's gonna be a hassle. You're gonna have to go down to get that thing outta impound. You're gonna, the kid, the 13 year old's not gonna pay the 50 bucks. Well, my kids would be made to pay it somehow later. But you're gonna have to go down, you're have to pay the 50 bucks, get the thing outta impound. You're also gonna have a, a face-to-face visit with a law enforcement officer or a phone call. Mm-hmm. They're gonna be talking to you about your kid and they're gonna be like telling you what a punk they are and, and how you need to be a better parent and stuff like that. So it's gonna be a hassle no matter what. So I think, I think with Amendment two, it's, it's, it's enough to cause parents to reflect on their situation if that's what we really want.

Representative Romero. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I had it too many times. Sorry. That's okay. No, thank you Mr. Chair. I think we've, um, had long discussions about this bill. So I move that we pass out. Um, HB 365 61. 5 61. I have my reading glasses on now. 5 61 as amended.

I waive, Uh, to the committee for discussion.

You waive I'll waive. All right.

Thank you. Chair and committee. I apologize. I was gonna wait to see if I could vote, but I think they're running too behind. Okay. Um, thank you for letting us be here today. This bill's very easy, I think, but usually whenever you say that, um, I was gonna say, don't One senator in particular, I think sitting over there has a really good way of, of making easy bills. I, I had, I had a se I had a Senator Cullimore one time show up to a house committee that I was chairing say, this is the perfect bill and there's nothing you could do to mess it up. Oh, that's a dare. I would never, it didn't, I would never, yeah. It did not go well. Yeah. There you go. So, um, essentially what, um, HB 5 61 does, um, if you'll remember, we passed a similar bill to this last year and it died at midnight on, on the senate board. Um, and so we were just going to refile that same bill last, last year. But, um, there was a bill that came through earlier, um, that representative Paul Cutler had done. And thankfully he actually did a ton of legwork that made this bill much simpler than, than in its form last year. Um, when he pulled out e-bikes and electric scooters and all of the other pieces that we were inadvertently pulling in, um, with our, with our bill last year, it kind of got a little muddled. So this bill, um, for all intents and purposes just, um, asks that, um, mini bikes or pocket, pocket mini motorcycles or pocket bikes, sometimes they're called, um, are, are kind of governed the same way as regular motorcycles. They're classified the same way. And law enforcement, um, has the ability to, um, enforce the rules the same way if they do so choose. Um, they are, we, we listed everything as, as maze and not shells, um, as it pertains to the minors. Um, 'cause I, we understood last year some of our rural, um, colleagues had some concerns with whether or not their kids could ride their minibike to school. And so we wanted to be, um, cognizant of that. But that essentially is the bill. I'm open to any questions.

Senator Bram. Uh, I, I'm just curious, you had 13 members of the house vote no. Mm-hmm. On third reading, can you tell me, do you, do you have any understanding as to what their objections or concerns were?

The, uh, from the ones that I talked to, if you look at 'em, they're, they're mostly the, they're rural, they're rural folks. Um, they, they were worried that if, if, uh, an officer was having a cranky day and, uh, there were, there were 14 year olds that were driving their mini motorcycles to work or to school or to their friend's house, that, that they could be used against them. But, um,

That's, and can you tell me how you believe that your bill accounts for that and addresses it?

Um, well by, by putting things as a may and not a shall, we were hoping to give law enforcement a tool to be able to, to utilize it when necessary. Um, I know in my community and, and in a couple of our other communities, um, we have, this sounds ridiculous, I don't laugh, but like biker gangs of kid, like 14-year-old kids on these mini bikes, um, driving around in the parks and on streets, they're fleeing from officers. They are, um, destroying like the parks ripping up the grass. And, and, um, and so for, for law enforcement, you know, they're, they're trying not to, um, they're not going to pursue a a 14-year-old that's fleeing from them 'cause they don't wanna cause an accident or, um, or injure the minor. Um, but they did wanna wait to, to kind of let the parents know that it, that it is a big deal and that what they're doing is an Oh no. Um, we, we were seeing out in, in Kearns, um, UPD was, um, they were, um, citing the minor with an infractions. In some cases they were confiscating the bike. Um, and the parents would go and they would pick it up from the evidence locker and, and the same kids would be out back on their bikes three or four days later. So

Do these biker gangs have a name? Are they the warriors Or something like that?

You know, I will send you, um, this Van, the Van Buren Boys, the Buren boys, The, uh, They call Billy clubs and do stuff. Yeah. I think I saw something about Brammer twins. I don't, I don't know if that was, but, um, but there are, there are social media accounts. They are, they are very proud of themselves.

Like do they literally have a name?

I'm, I'm, I don't have it with me, but I will forward you,

That's something I would love to, to learn the name of the mini biker gang senator.

I would be so happy to send that to you. Alright. As long as you promise not to laugh.

I, I will likely laugh, but, but yeah. Thanks. Yeah.

you, Mr. Chair. I don't see anything in here about speed, uh, of a mini motorcycle. So this would include, uh, anything that has a motor that you sit on. Um, I maybe a cycle means it only has two wheels. I don't know. Um, I mean, a cycle kind of means anything with a wheel. Uh, so a, a seat that's low to the ground, um, it does not include a moped and it does not include one that's designed for off highway use. But I, you know, I live in a neighborhood with some kids and some of them ride around on something that would fit this definition. Um, you know, they zoom around the neighborhood, they use it to get to their friends', houses to play, you know, I mean, you say that this doesn't include like a motor assisted scooter. Mm-hmm. Um, and you know, ISII picture a motor assisted scooter as something that you stand on. Lots of the kids in my neighborhood have those too. But it looks like I'd be making a criminal here outta my neighbor's 8-year-old boy. Uh, and that's a concern for me,

I would say. Are you referring Senator? Oh, sorry, Mr. Chair. Um, is the question pertaining to like line 7 0 8?

No, you're right. That's already in code. So Yeah, so we, well that's dumb. He already is a Criminal. So it says motor vehicle.

Motor vehicle does not include a motor assisted scooter. No, I get that. So, So yeah, we're, we, we try not to, not to mess with that. We don't wanna, we don't want our jails to be full of 14-year-old kids, of course. You know, but, um, but yeah, we we're just trying to make sure, or maybe we are, I don't know. But we just wanted to make sure that when appropriate, the law enforcement has the ability to, to follow the same set of rules and to treat these minibikes the same way as they would a regular motorcycle. So that, um, so that we don't have 14 year olds on them. Um, so that they're people that are, that have a driver's license, that are wearing a helmet when they're driving 'em around on, on, on the road. Um, and, and that they, that they have a license. Another thing that we saw out in my community, um, we had a couple individuals, more than one unfortunately, um, who had had their license revoked, um, for, for DUIs. And so they felt like this would be, um, an appropriate way to travel to and fro, um, because this was not, uh, a car. So they, they could, um, go to the bowling alley, to the liquor store such and such, um, legally because this wasn't a car. So, and it didn't require license. So we, we wanna make sure that they were not doing that. So

Thank you. Mm-hmm.

Okay. Alright. Lemme see if I can out brammer brammer. Just kidding. Um, on lines seven 11 through seven 16 is the definition of motor. There's new language in your bill that says, regardless of the mode of power generation. Mm-hmm. So we are extending this to e motorcycles, e-bike motorcycles.

Right. Uh, I, that's not the intent, so I hope not. Um, from my recollection, the clarification that we put in there, um, was because as I mentioned earlier, the, the bill that came through before, um, that Representative Cutler did, that created a framework and structure and the different, um, classifications for these powered vehicle for e-bikes and for scooters and all these types of things, um, that those were all sucked into that framework, into that category. So we were just specifying that. Yeah. It the, for these many motorcycles and any motorcycles, if they are run by, by gas or, or battery or whatever other ways that you can power, power, such things that tho they would all be incorporated. Yes.

Yeah. I was trying to find, um, in this bill is Representative Cutler's bill this year?

Yes, it was, um, gosh, I'm sorry. I feel so unprepared. I don't have that number, but, but it, it passed, I wanna say the first three or four weeks of session,

Let's see, I'm looking at House Bill 3 81, it's currently on the second reading calendar in the Senate.

I was like, I am pretty good at about remembering some things. And that wasn't a thing that I remembered I was gonna

I was looking at his, and I'm like, I'm not loving his necessarily either. So thanks for drawing that to our attention. I'm just kidding. Just kidding. Uh, so, okay. Um, anyhow, that, I mean, that's a interesting question to deal with there. And then the other part I was looking at was line, let's see, where was I? Line one one 1072 says, if the I empowerment was made under and talks about the impoundment pay an administrative impoundment fee of $50 plus pays all towing and storage fees to the place where the vehicle or vessel outboard motor is stored.

I'm so sorry, what line was that? I'm still

Scrolling. 1072.

It's okay. Ooh, 1000 1072. Oh, I Overshot it. There we go. Oh, yes, yes, yes. Um, so one of the things that we, um, from, that we had carried over from last year, um, so this is another, another issue that we had from, from last year, we realized that some of these bikes, um, they, they can't all be impounded because they don't all have VIN numbers. So the tax commission does not have the ability to impound something that does not have a VIN number. So for those mini motorcycles that do have a VIN number, those would be stored at, at an impound lot. And the mini motorcycles that just have like a, a, a barcode, just a generic barcode, um, those, um, as of right now, law enforcement is just storing them in their ev like an evidence locker, and then the parents just go and, um, and, and do that that way. So that's why we were, um, clarifying the two, that if you, if it's impounded and you're, your mini motorcycle has a VIN and it's sent to an impound lot, then it would be, you'd pay your $50 impound fee that way.

Okay. So, uh, the VIN number, so me and my bike are gang buddies. Mm-hmm. Um, when we hang out on our minibikes mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, our, our impound, your impound fee, if you're towed it's like $270, $250, something like that. Um,

I think in code, I think it's, uh, it's $425 for the administrative impound fee. Yeah. I don't know if, if that, if that's required for everything, um,

Yeah, that's the administrative administration fee. But when you, when you look under 10 74 and it says, pays all towing and storage fees to the place where the vehicle vessel are out. So my my concern is these bikes are retail 400 to $700 ish.

They're outta my tax bracket. Senator, I'm not sure. So

Me and my biker buddies, we, we price these all the time. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. Um, but, you know, looking at the, looking at the price, I'm a little bit concerned that the impoundment itself, if we take the statutory rates that are guaranteed to tow trucks and that kind of stuff for, you know, for impounding, I'm a little bit concerned that the price of the impoundment is going to exceed the price of the vehicle. Mm-hmm. And we're gonna end up owning a whole bunch of minibikes. Mm-hmm. Hmm. We, Which the trooper back there is really excited about. Uh, he's, uh, you can tell he rides 'em all the time, but, uh, yeah. Maybe he's got a lot of kids on his Christie shopping List. Exactly. Maybe that's it. Yeah. But I'm just wondering, you know, as you, as you look through this Yes. You know, that's a, that's a concern because I just know we've dealt with towing fees a ton. Mm-hmm. And the idea of, you know, uh, uh, an officer calling a tow truck for one of these little things, uh, when a parent or guardian, you know, could pick it up instead, um, you know, I, anyway, I'm just trying to, I'm looking at that and I'm wondering if we have the policy right on that administration of, uh, of that component. Um, so, um, that, that part makes me a little nervous that we've got our impound fees out of whack with the, with the cost of the vehicle.

Well, if I may, I think, and I apologize, I think I might have misunderstood your question at first. So the $50, um, the impoundment was made, and, and maybe I might have to defer to if there was an attorney in the room that could help to clarify. So I'm not speaking outta turn, but the intent, and if it's not correct, I'd be open to amendment The $50, um, for the impound fee is for in the instances where the vehicle is impounded, but it can't be sent to an impound lot, it's being stored in the evidence locker. So that $50 impound fee that you're referring to is, um, we wouldn't be, those bikes aren't being sent to like the tax submissions, uh, um, impound lots. Those are ones that are impounded, but that are stored on the premises at, at, at the police station. So we wanted to make sure that there was some sort of monetary penalty when the parents were going, um, and, and retrieving them from, um, from the evidence locker so that there wasn't, so that they, I guess, were thinking twice before they were giving them, giving access back to the minor.

Okay. That the intent. And if it's not that way, then I would, I would be, yeah. 'cause I don't see a separation. I don't see a separation for towing based on vin, not vin, um, sorry, I'm just flipping through and I was trying to find, but I didn't see the segregation in the policy between vin, no VIN as to where they're impounded versus can't be impounded. So that's my, sorry, I'm just c can't follow it to the end of the road, you

Know what I mean? Oh, no, you're fine. I totally get that. And it's much easier in my defense when we present this in transportation because in the person who, who drafted the policy is on site and I can phone a friend. So since, since this isn't, uh, can't, don't have that luxury here, so that, that is the intent. Um, yeah.

Okay. Uh, I think I've, I think we've beaten the dead horse a little bit. Um, I know our staff can help me look that up and see if we can find where the VIN designation is, uh, in the bill. Um, anyway, with that separation, I don't know if Senator Harper iss the transportation king, I'm wondering if he knows more about that component or not, but Ask the question. We're trying to figure out, uh, we're trying to figure out the classification for where the impound and what the impound fee would be if it is a vin, you know, if the, if the bike has a VIN as opposed to not having a vin.

I've got like four mics on over there. I'm just not sure which one is, Oh, there we go. Got it, got it. Now. Yeah, if, if it has a VIN on it, it's much easier to go through and, uh, find the owner in that. If not, you have to go through and take a look at a serial number on a block or something like that to try to track it out.

Uh, my name is Trevor Nelson. I'm the general manager of the Bear River Canal Company. Um, I would come up and speak in support of this bill. We've had a lot of issues with individuals using these type of motorcycles to use the canal as a conduit to move from town to town in Box Elder county. And then the issue has been as they've been vandalizing and they're not obeying traffic signals, so they, when we do hit paved road coming off the canal road, there's been several instances where someone's almost been killed. In addition, um, I've had them almost run into farm equipment as well as we, uh, had, uh, uh, someone go into the canal and we had to shut down a 300,000 gallon per minute canal in the middle of July. Um, that results in millions of dollars in crop losses, if that is sustained, because we, luckily, we found the kid, he'd rode the seat right into the ground and he was downstream about a mile and a half. But it does cause a lot of problems. And so we would just express our support in allowing law enforcement officers to treat these the same because, uh, when they do run from the law, um, it, uh, you know, it's causing private property owners like ourselves issues. So we'd speak in support of the bill.

Okay. Um, I would move to hold.

Um, I, I like the work that's being done on, uh, the section about evading the officers. Um, and, and I like being able to tag their license for a year where they can't get their driver's license for a year. Um, but I, there's a lot of other stuff going on that's outside the real scope of what you're trying to get at. And so I just am uncomfortable that the bill is not tailored to the problem you're trying to address. So that's the reason for the hold i, the, the work being done from lines 9 0 8 to nine 12 is great. The rest of it I, I'll shake you on. Thanks.

Um, thank you, Mr. Chair. And I'll speak against the motion and when, uh, when, uh, adequately I will like to make a substitute motion that's An order. And, and I'll just say as we're seeking more info on the, on the fees, we just pass a major bill giving opportunity for the sponsor to clean it. I know the good, uh, representative can clean this bill and get it to the place where I think most people agree. I think she's worked really hard. It's an issue that needs to be addressed because we do need, I think, more framework on how to manage this situation to start new things as technology changes, we're gonna be dealing with this type of situations. So I will, um, respectfully request my colleagues to provide the same, uh, courtesy that was provided to the first presenter in this committee with regards to fixing a massive bill with millions of dollars attached to it to give that same courtesy to the representative.

Rachel Brooks. Sorry, I just went over here. I'm policy analyst with the Office of Legislative Research and General Counsel. Um,

I'm not speaking for or against the bill. Just hoping to help provide some clarification. And I'm sorry that I missed what the questions were.

So my question, uh, my question was, uh, on the fee, yes. Um, we charge a $50 fee, but then it says, you know, the ordinary and customary towing and, uh, and I'm trying to remember what line that was. It was seven, maybe it was thousand. What, 1,072 if I remember right. Yep. There it is. Thousand 72. If the impoundment was made under, you know, that subsection, which is the part that refers to not letting the parents off the hook. So it convicts the parents just as much as the, uh, as the child, which I'm really glad my boys are over the age of 18 now, uh, pays an administrative impound p of $50 and all towing and storage fees. So I was trying to figure out, I know we have statutory requirements or caps on what those fees are when they're, when the, it's an impounded vehicle as part of the, uh, you know, law enforcement action. Do you know what that fee is?

Um, I don't have it, uh, off the top of my head, but you're correct that those fees are set. Um, so if it's a police, uh, impound, those fees are capped.

I'm sorry. Um, so this would be $50 in addition right. To those impound and storage fees specifically for a violation of this section?

Yeah. Okay. That's what, that's what I needed. Yes. I'll, uh, Mr. Gasser might be able to get us a, uh, uh, gosser. I think I'm always saying that wrong, but maybe he can get me where that, uh, code section is on, on what the cost is, but yes. Okay.

And then that's awesome. Was there a question about VIN impounding with VINs as

Well? Yeah. VIN versus not impounding with vin.

So my understanding, and is the tech the tax commission here? No. Okay. My understanding is that, um, so since all these vehicles are required to be, mini motorcycles are already required to be registered, to be operated on the highway under current law. So if they either have a VIN or a serial number already, and if they don't have a vin, they just have a serial number, then in order to register them, the tax commission can assign them a VIN to register them. So all of these vehicles, if they should have a vin, um, and be able to be impounded with a vin.

Yeah. And just to clarify, you know, in addition, what, uh, Ms. Brooks went and stated there, there are impound fees, there's an administrative fee, there's a, uh, tow fee, there's a bunch of fees. Those are all set by MVED in the tax commission. And, uh, that's part of the fee schedule that we approve each year. I haven't seen any changes to that, and I don't remember what they are, but there's a, uh, there is a daily rate, and if you, and the, the fee for calling out, uh, you know, somebody, if the police call is a higher fee than what an individual, if they want to go through and call out and get a tow or something like that, that fee's higher if it's, it's through public safety. And I just looked up on U DOT's website what the maximum fee is for non-consent police generated removal or impound. And I assume this would qualify for light duty, but the administrative fee for non motorcycles is $43. So motorcycle, this would be a more expensive, uh, fee. And then the tow truck service is $205 an hour, so 205 bucks to come pick the vehicle up. Yeah. I can't imagine going up to Box Elder County to pick up a, a vehicle, but, you know, maybe that's a thing. Uh, you know, um, and so 205 bucks plus the $50 administration fee, and then a minimum of one day of storage if it's outside is $41. So we're talking about a $300 cost, uh, for that.

Sure. Well, I, um, if we're able to move this forward, I, I know where you are and I know where you are and I think we can clean it up. It sounds like it should be a really easy clean up and Rachel knows where we are too. So I think we can get to that here pretty quickly. Yeah. And I can support the, the substitute motion. I think that's fair.

Here would be the things, your objective is that when these little punks and the Kearns Band and the Kearns Mini biker gang, The Van Bureau voice Evade the police, you want to give the police the ability to do something about it. Correct. Keep the definition really limited and don't take in more than what you're talking about. Just do these little mini bikes. Okay. Define it narrowly, take out all the other stuff, or be a little more prescriptive on the impounding so that it's right size to that. Um, I don't know the exact way to solve that, to solve Senator McKay if he has suggestions on that. Um, but there's just a lot going on that creates a lot of definitions that are really broad. Just get a narrow definition and then keep those working lines of 9 0 8 through nine 12. And that's, I think that's the heart of your bill, um, is let 'em go. You define it, and when they run away from the police, then the police can go get 'em and do something about it. I think that's what you're after. Perfect. But you're doing all, you've got like this huge change and all this, I mean, it's not huge, but there's, there's a lot of bill to this mm-hmm. And I don't know that it needs that much, so just go narrow. Okay. Solve your problem and leave the rest for other people.

I's, uh, I, uh, mentioned the speed thing earlier. Mm-hmm. Uh, I've asked your attorney to prepare an amendment to add a speed to the definition of a mini motorcycle in the same way that we've done to differentiate e-bikes. Uh, if you'd work that into your substitute, I think we could solve a problem of catching my 8-year-old

Neighbor for, just to clarify, and I apologize. So you're, you want specification for how fast they're going before they can get in trouble

Or? No, the definition of a mini motorcycle should include something that goes faster than like 15 or 20 miles an hour.

Oh, I see. Okay. Okay. Okay. Thanks.

Yeah. 'cause you, what you'd hate to do is, um, those nine bot or whatever those, you know, segue or whatever, those little scooters, you know, those go 15 miles an hour and granted they don't have a seat, but, you know, I've never put it past kids into a duke dumb Things. I remember my neighbor has one with a seat, so, Okay. That's my concern. So, you know, they're, these are kids' bikes these days, and so, you know, my, anyways, just be aware that I think that speed thing is, uh, they have to go at least, you know, 20 miles an hour speed rated for 20 or something like that.

I do have a one thing that I was gonna add, but I don't wanna add first. Um, I just so you know, I struggle with prox with proxy liability or proxy crime, criminal behavior. Okay. So when we assign liability to, or we're gonna create a misdemeanor liability for their parents, and the reason I say that is with Utah, having so many military personnel, if you add a misdemeanor conviction to this parent's record, you, you may jeopardize their security clearance and their ability to perform their job on either hill or one of the other bases around the state. So I I'm a no, but I'm a no because of the, not the other issues sound like they're solvable. My problem is the parents being guilty of a crime. And I've got, unfortunately, way too many kids that have done way too many dumb things that I'm not super interested in being liable for their crimes. I think the court is set up with a process to hold individuals accountable, including juveniles through that process. And it is important for them to learn the lesson, uh, and take and learn to take responsibility through that process rather than creating, you know, proxy liability or prox proxy crimes or proxy criminal behavior. So I'm a know on the bill just for that reason. Um, but if you deal with that in the sub, uh, then I'm, I'm happy to support the bill in the future. So,

Yes. Um, just because that same question had been brought up in the house committee, um, and what we'd, because in it's already in statute that if you knowingly let somebody that you know, to be unlicensed to operate a vehicle, you're already, you're already in trouble with that. So that's where this language is. It, it just kind of makes clear that it's, it's the same whether you let somebody drive a motorcycle or a car if you know that they don't have a driver's license and you still allow them to operate a vehicle that you own that, that you are liable. So that's, if that is helpful, that's where that language comes from. So

Telling me that we're offending that principle in other parts of code does not necessarily make me feel better. But at the same time, I appreciate that we do, you know, it's like we reserve the right to be hypocrites at any moment. Right. Um, but, you know, anyways, I just throw that out there as that's my issue with the bill, but, um, but there we are.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I, I know the good sponsor will work on the language and we'll make sure we get information for the good Senator from Utah County on the on the bike, the bike gang name. And thank you for the consideration as we've done for other members in the legislature. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

You got it. Thank you. It may not fare

Thank you Mr. Speaker Pro Tem. Um, this bill is very easy. All it does is it puts, uh, pocket bikes or mini motorcycles in the same category as regular motorcycles. Um, so that law enforcement is able to, um, regulate them, I guess, as, uh, the same as any other motorcycle.

I'll waive Summation is waived.