H.R. 4 House Rules Resolution - Legislation Disclosure: transcript

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Oh, here. Okay. Thank you Mr. Chair and members of the committee. Um, so yeah, the, a pretty simple proposal, uh, for rule, uh, change with no, um, uh, with no requirements or penalty associated with just a, uh, a request that we suggest. One of the concerns that comes up, uh, we hear a lot both from, uh, house and Senate leadership and from the governor's office, is the intense number of bills that come through the legislature every year. But one thing that is sometimes a little frustrating, uh, to some of us is, is the number of bills that the, um, executive branch sometimes asks us to run. And so, one of the things that I've, uh, long asked for is whether or not we could have some clarity. And so this rule recommendation would just simply be that a, uh, bill, if it was materially requested by, or, or is sponsored by essentially an agency head or a cabinet member or an executive branch member, that it'd just simply be disclosed so that we can have an idea of, of where these bills are essentially originating from. And that's, that's it.

Thank you, uh, representative. I understand that, um, trying to, trying to sort through all of the different, uh, bills where we've had similar conversations many times, including conversation yesterday. It's not from an agency head, but it's from their staff. It's from, in fact, because of the internal, this will be funny if the governor watches this because of the internal rules with their budget requests and the restrictions that they put on what they can officially say and not, it doesn't mean that those conversations are never had, it just means that they're kind of under the table, right? Like, they're not of official, they don't have official permission, but it's a problem. And then by the time they bring it to us, we're like, oh, yeah, you're right. We need to solve that. Whether or not X head of a given department, you know, wants to do it, how do you propose that we deal with that as far as disclosure?

Yeah, I appreciate that, and that's why this has, again, no enforcement mechanism, no penalty associated. I simply was hoping that this could be more of a best practice, is that we essentially are informing under rule that, look, if this bill is originating from, in any way, shape, or form from an agency or from the executive branch, just let your colleagues know. Just, it would help us to, to understand where that's coming from, leaving it to the discretion. I know it's written in here as a shall and it's under rule, but again, without any of the, uh, penalizing or any of the, uh, requirements that would come along with it, this is, uh, in intentionally in intended to be something that every representative could, um, um, potentially just use their own best judgment on.

Okay. So we're not required to, sorry, to follow up please. Okay. Not required necessarily to disclose who or what or when. Some of those cases, it does feel like a whistleblower conversation when we're having those. Um, and if, certainly if we file a bill, we probably went down that same route to how they got there. Um, so just, it would only apply to executive branch agencies. Mm-hmm. Not necessarily any other, um, I'm thinking the universities, right. This stuff will happen a lot in those scenarios or other entities in government. You're not, we're not going, you're not contemplating including any of those. Well, I guess what I'm, what I'm hoping to identify is, is that all of us have our own, um, ideas of bills we'd like to work on. We are a lot of times brought ideas from, um, perhaps people in our communities or from companies or from organizations or lobbyists or from agencies. It could be, uh, other issues that, that come up. And I think it would be helpful for us to understand, um, when we're talking about our bill counts in particular, you know, where are these essentially coming from? Is, is this something that materially is mostly requested from our communities, or is this mostly coming from the government itself seeking to, um, change laws for whatever reason? Um, and again, I, I'm, I'm only suggesting clarity on that.

Mm-hmm. With, uh, just asking for it to just simply be disclosed the manner and the method and the, the specific type of disclosure is not listed here.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. And I think, uh, Representative Wilcox got one of my questions answered. My, I guess my concern is, you know, every bill has its genesis, uh, you know, and, uh, what I, what I would not like to see, you've, you've tried to narrow focus this, but I, I don't think it'd be, uh, good or or appropriate for this thing to expand out, uh, to where, because I get questions about where I got bill ideas all the time. Um, I'd rather not, uh, out folks that came up with a good ideas. So, do you see this as, uh, opening a door to, to more of that?

I would, I would certainly hope not. And I'd be willing to even include that, uh, that we have, we, we are allowed to keep our, our, um, genesis, so to speak, confidential. And I don't think this is intended to breach that, even if you're just saying, you know, this came from, uh, an executive branch agency, um, which I'm pursuing that, that I think they would prefer for all of us to be aware of. And if it didn't, then simply keeping that confidential, I think is in the best interest potentially of, uh, many of the parties involved, because then you sometimes worry about the individuals where these came from rather than the policy.

Okay. Thank you. And, and having served on the executive branch a couple of times, and I think, uh, my good colleague from, uh, Davis County, Weber Davis County, uh, kind of alluded to it, but when you work for the executive branch, uh, sometimes, um, you need something done that may not fit in the governor's budget. And so the one, the other concern would be that some of these folks need, need anonymity to some point. Um, and we wouldn't want to, uh, get any of them in trouble. It would be their fault for violating the policies of being part of the executive branch. But I've seen this happen before, so that was just another concern that I had, have the utmost respect for you and your brain power. Thanks for bringing it. Just a couple of concerns. Thank you.

So, um, thank you. So my question is always, with every bill, do we need a bill or can we just do this? And, and, and nothing precludes a chair right now from asking you, where did you get this bill idea? And does this come from an agency? That is, That's my question. I, I appreciate that question, and I will disclose freely that it came from my own brain, and it was from a few years of, uh, frustration in, um, not necessarily knowing sometimes, uh, as the phrase is used, the genesis of some of these bills, where they're coming from, what, what's, what's driving them. Um, and, uh, I, I try to be, and, and I don't think everyone has to be, but I try to be very transparent about where, um, where bills are coming from and what problem I'm trying to solve, um, and who's involved. And, uh, I think it would be great if, if they all did that, but I can understand there may be some nuance there where we need, need to navigate around. Uh, I, I'm not trying to make things too terribly complicated. I'm not trying to create a very specific or, um, enforced rule. I'm just hoping to create more of a best practice of understanding, um, that, that I think that we, we tend to view bills when there's, um, at least I do, when there's a constituent with a legitimate issue that they're trying to solve. Those to me are very important when I have an agency that has a frustration that they love to see fixed, to me, I, I, I see that in a separate category of something we need to get to, but has perhaps a separate, a separate sense of urgency, um, depending on the situation, because I, you know, I represent the people that elected me and not necessarily the agencies that I work with. And so I, I at least think that there's, there's, maybe there's some way to, to solve this. I try to find the, the easiest way that has the least impact on what we do in our processes. If there's a, a better way of doing this that can protect all parties, I'm absolutely open to that.

Um, I just have a couple questions and I just wanna state for the record that I love all of the ideas that you come up with. Oh, Wow. So, um, just a, a couple questions. Um, as I looked at this, the first one was, when you say disclose the nature of the request, what, what are you looking for there? Like, what would you expect the responses to be like? Um, I, I, and, and if this seems to be clarified, again, I'm trying to make it as as general as possible. If it was me and if it was, you know, I have a bill right now that I was approached by, um, uh, LELC on, on potentially running, um, from one of our agencies. And I would just simply state, you know, I was asked by a, the sheriff's, um, to run this particular bill. This is the problem they ran across. And, um, and this is what we think is the right solution. And I indicate all the stakeholders I worked with, and I'm running another bill, for example, for a constituent who lives in my neighborhood that's also in the law enforcement space. And I've been very upfront with everyone that, you know, that this particular bill came from, from a constituent with a specific need. And lemme tell you exactly the problem that's going on, and I don't think that is covered under this bill. I don't, wouldn't, wouldn't say that you need to disclose these types of natures, but I would say, in my opinion, if I am running a bill because the governor's office asked me to, or the goo or, um, you know, the sheriffs, uh, if, if there was some agency that has a request for a change in our law, uh, I think it just behooves us to Juab understand that that's where it's coming from and, and knowing that we wanna look at these policies in a vacuum, but I think that that's also important context. Okay. That makes sense. Um, another question I had, and I I, I mean, I get that you're trying to say this is a best practice, but I'm thinking through kind of, you know, when we put it in rule, what I don't think I can make a best practice in rules. That's what, what makes it difficult? So when you say at the request, what does, what does that really mean? I mean, if, if you're having a conversation with an agency and at the end of it you're like, Hey, you know, I want run a bill on this, or, um, you're in another committee or meeting and someone brings up a problem and then you decide to file a bill. Is that at the request? I mean, if they're just involved in some of the conversation, at what point does it become the request of the, And, and perhaps that would need some clarity on how this is written.

My, my assumption again, in, in leading back to the earlier question was, is that I would like this to be in the, in the conscience of the legislator to just say, if you believe this bill or the major components of it is materially, uh, um, generated by an executive branch agency, just let your colleagues know. But, um, uh, if there's a way to do that more broadly, that doesn't, I'm not trying to define it too tightly. I don't want it to be, again, I, I'm not looking for a hard, fast rule. I, I'm just looking for a best practice and I'm open to the chair of the rules house rules committee to help me identify if there's another way to get to the same issue.

May maybe to that, that point, let me just say I, the one, one real fear I have about this is, even though you say there isn't really a penalty per se, if you violate a law or violate a legislative rule, you know, it could go to the ethics committee. I mean, there could be something, and I don't wanna put any of our colleagues in a a gotcha type situation, you know, maybe they to fully intend to disclose who it is, but they get up to present and they forget that to disclose it or something. Have you considered, um, possibly just as you request a bill, maybe adding the field that says, was this, um, requested by an agency, you know, check here what agency, and, and that way they're proactively being asked that they would disclose at the very beginning, it shouldn't change, you know, throughout the process, and then you'd get to the reporting requirements that you were, you were looking for.

Absolutely. And the reporting piece actually may be even more helpful in that regard. Um, so absolutely. I think that would be, I'm, I guess the, um, and, and I'm not worried about those little minor changes. If, if, if you've got a substitute or if you've got, you know, a stakeholder that's asking for input that changes maybe some portion of the bill. I'm, I'm really looking at, um, and again, trying to get to the underlying argument that we have a lot of bills, where are they coming from? Um, if, if we're solving problems in our individual communities, that's one thing. If we're solving, uh, problems for our different agencies, and that ends up being the bulk of our issues, it might be important to know that. Yeah.

Yeah, I move that we recommend favorably.

Um, yeah, I, I, I do understand how like the, the questions from you, you know, chairman and how this can potentially have a lot of, well, what is actually coming from someone of a different person, you know, a different branch of government or whatnot. But I do appreciate that we're trying to create some clarity in this and some transparency behind where a lot of the bills are coming from. I, you know, we have a separation of, of, of branches of government for a reason. And I would like to know that if one branch is trying to essentially create laws, and if it's blatantly obvious and it's a big bill, then I think this is a good way to just disclose it.

Thank you. I, I can appreciate the problem you're trying to solve here, but I, I still probably have three outstanding concerns. The first is, I don't know that we've got a clear definition of what at the request or nature of their quest means. And I think words matter when we put them in law. Second, I'm not totally sure we need a rule. I feel like we can just ask people. I mean, and the third is having been on the other side, sometimes you talk to a legislator about a piece of an issue, maybe you're not requesting, but you're just kind of having a conversation. They open a bill file and then they start telling everyone that you ask them to open it and you actually don't like how they're solving the problem. And then now it looks like the agency supports something the legislator is doing, but the legislature's doing on their own, and they have the prerogative and right to do that. But it does sometimes pull agencies into this weird position where you've got a legislator saying, I'm doing this at the request of them. And, and they're actually not, but their prerogative, they can do it anyways. I feel like that's gonna catch more people in that situation on both sides, on both agencies and with legislators who might feel like, well, we had a conversation. So of course I'm telling people about it and them feeling like it was just a conversation. So anyways, those are my concerns. Thanks.

Um, I just wanna add some concern as well. I, I think that the concept is there. I think you've identified an issue. I'm just not sure if this is the right vehicle yet. And I feel like it's still rough enough that I'm, I'm not comfortable moving it to the floor. Um, and so I'd be open to, you know, if you want to work on some other substitutes coming back into the rules committee or if you wanted to kick it out to the legislative, um, what do we call it? Process, process committee. Mm. You know, that's what they work on. All interim is, is how can we improve our rules and then get it in the, the main rules bill next year. But I, I just think there's a little more work that needs to be done on this before it's ready for the floor.

Thank you. And I appreciate that. Uh, I'm more than willing actually, and I, I like the discussion. I'm happy to actually look at, uh, perhaps whether we can do this, uh, through a different process. I actually really like the idea of perhaps, uh, including it in our bill, um, uh, release, uh, portion. Um, perhaps it would give us some better tracking anyway. So I, I would actually appreciate, take the time to go look at that and see if I can turn it around maybe potentially quickly. And, uh, so if it, uh, does not go to the floor where I can adjust it there, then I'm happy to try to do it and bring it back to you.

I'll waive. All right.

Like I said, more than happy to agendize it again if Absolutely.

Thank you. And thank you Committee. Uh, I'll be speaking to the first substitute. If you recall, we were here speaking to the original bill a little while ago. Um, the, uh, only real difference here is, is that now this is a request, um, that to, uh, add a field, um, into our bill tracker. So when you insert a bill, there'll be an optional location where you can, if you so choose, indicate if that, uh, partic particular legislation may have come from a particular state agency or, uh, or similar location, and then provides that O-L-R-G-C can track that information and compile it together and provide it to caucus staff members upon request. And that is the bill. Alright, thank

Uh, I'd like to move first substitute of HR four.

Would you like to speak to it? Yeah, I appreciate the sponsor working with us, listening to some of the things we talked about last time. I think that's great. I like it.

Thank you, uh, Mr. Chair. Motion to, um, favorably pass out. First substitute house resolution four.

As a friend of mine says, A colleague of mine says from Southern Utah. It's a good bill.

to the bill sponsor. Appreciate The committee's, uh, work on this, uh, and, and helping me, uh, come up with maybe a, a very simple tweak here that might allow us to at least gather some data on where these bills are all coming from. Since we get a lot of complaints, it seems like, from, uh, some of our, uh, staff, uh, some of our, um, uh, leadership and some of the executive branch, and even from the public on bills. And it would be nice to know, um, if, if we so choose to disclose that, and perhaps we can get some more information, insight into where that's happening. So appreciate the opportunity.

I will waive. Okay.

Let's go Mad reading clerk. Our Substitute HR four House rules resolution legislation disclosure by Representative MacPherson. This bill was heard in the rules committee with a vote of 7 0 1

Thank you Mr. Speaker. Um, this is a pretty simple rule change. It would, uh, create a definition for agencies, uh, heads and, uh, state agencies. And when we would create a bill file, um, here in the house, it would have staff create a new, um, field that would be totally optional, that you could fill out, for example, that the legislation came at the request of a particular agency or a particular group. Um, that information would then be trackable and it could be sent to the caucus staff. Um, the purpose of this is so that as we've had discussed now for a number of years, that there's, uh, some concern about the number of bills that come out of, um, uh, the legislature. And those, uh, concerns sometimes come from the governor's office. They come from our leadership, they come from the public. And so this might provide some clarity, um, to us if we choose to use it, um, on where many of these bills are originating from. Um, and that would, uh, I think provide some helpful information to perhaps those that have concerns, uh, on where, on where these, uh, bills are all coming from. And that is, uh, the end of my presentation. Mr. Speaker.

You, Mr. Speaker. I will waive