S.B. 21 Geothermal Amendments: transcript

Okay. And, and just, just what we're doing with Geothermals, we're setting our geothermal policy as a state, and we're, we're attaching geothermal to the mineral estate in general. The exception to that is in situations like TLA with federal, with federal law, federal lands control the mineral estate and, and geothermal. But for purposes of public and non-government ground, we're gonna attach geothermal to the surface estate. That's what the bill does. Um, I did have a substitute that is, that is online Substitute three. And then I know Representative Albrecht will have an amendment to that substitute. The substitute was language that came to me through sita. They just wanted further clarification. So we're letting SITA preserve their, their geothermal rights through the min through the mineral estate, and that's consistent with federal lands. But that's what, that's what the bill does, and I'm happy to answer any questions.

Thank you, Mr. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I, uh, understand the way it was presented, that, uh, if I understand correctly, that geothermal is considered a part of the mineral estate on federal lands. And, uh, on, on what about private lands?

Thank you. So, Mr. Chair, the answer to that is on PRI Private Lands, we would use a model where we would attach it to the surface estate. Um, as we've researched this, there, there are a lot of, a lot of variance across the country and how we do it. But so, so Representative Chew, we attach it to the surface of state, and we also have our, our state water rights run it. Um, Theresa, this is something that, this is actually pretty cool to point out. Um, with running it through water rights, she can do a permit in 30 days. It's the fastest that, that I've found anywhere in the country. She's incredibly efficient and we tied it to water rights to let them manage it. They've been doing it, and it, you've gotta use water to, to process that geothermal, and it just made sense.

So, I appreciate that answer, Mr. Uh, chairman, that's, that's, uh, exactly how I understand it. And we're not trying to change anything that's not just been the norm anyway. Just, uh, just recognizing the ability of the, of the estate engineer to do her thing, so to speak. So I appreciate that.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. No question, but a comment. Uh, the good Senator Vickers worked on this for a couple, two or three years at least. Uh, and, uh, I think we got the language right and, and how geothermal should be respected by property owners. It's a good representative from U Ena County mentioned, and I think it's in a good place, so I would ask you to support it.

And I will keep it brief. Mr. Chair. Uh, Wade Garrett, Utah Farm Bureau. Uh, we support the good Senator Vickers from Spanish Forks. Bill. Uh, I think it's a good bill. It helps, uh, our ag producers maybe, uh, a little extra revenue stream, and it just clarifies. So, uh, as is a good representative from Richfield would say, good bill, vote for us.

Favor you in a county. Um, having come from the oil and gas industry, I spent 35 years in this. This is a resource that is largely untapped. Uh, anything we can do to make that, make that happen needs to happen. Um, it's, it's green. It's 24 7, 365, and we just need to support it all the way through. Thank you. All right. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would make a motion to approve the third sub Yeah. Of SB 21.

Um, if Carl wants to, or I can, I would make a motion that we approve the house amendment number one to SB 21.

Representative Peterson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would make a motion that we approve that we move, uh, SB third sub SB 21 as amended out of committee with a favorable recommendation.

I don't know if I'd dare go to the in-laws this weekend down in Sanpete after that. Um, geothermal, you, You were Raised on the wrong side of the belt. Geothermal, let me pull up this bill. I had it up a minute ago. Uh, we've been work, we've been working on this and, uh, Theresa's gonna be here if there's questions of, you know, technical questions of what this bill does. But we're trying to, trying to resolve what, what's the state policy gonna be with geothermal? Um, I've worked with SIT l we're gonna reserve rights for sit l Um, I I've been persuaded. I pushed back on sit l for a year now and, and I really like geothermal tied to the surface and that, that's kind of the purpose of this bill. But the federal government, uh, federal land, they are able to tie, um, mineral rights to geothermal. And that's what we're gonna do for tla. Um, that's what the bill does. There's some language, there's a substitute that I'd like, I'd like to talk about as well. And I don't know how you wanna take it in order. I'm always confused by how the Senate and the House does it. When I was in the house, we would talk about the substitute. And in the Senate we move the substitute, then talk about it. And I'm in a committee with three former house members, so we

Um, I'm just gonna speak to it and, and then when you do get quorum, I'm next door. We've got a riveting discussion about the disability law center and it's a packed, packed house. And that's gonna go for another hour probably. So I'll be here. Um, the, the other part of the bill, we, we do have some protections for industry. I, I want geothermal to thrive in Utah. And one of the questions that I've been asking is how do we make geothermal thrive? Um, I'm just gonna give a shout out to Theresa at water rights. Our permitting process is the fastest in the, that I've been able to see. We can permit and do this within 30 days. I'm really appreciative to her division and the efficiency in which they do geothermal. Um, some of the unique things that you'll see in the bill, we have some protection, we have some protections for industry there. There's some privacy that happens when you go out and you secure a site and you do testing. It's very expensive and you've got a five year protection. When you abandon, when you abandon that, that well site, you've got a two year protection and, and that could change. There are some folks who would like to have a little longer, um, runway on, on the backend. I, I think if you're gonna abandon, I think you've gotta abandon soon so somebody else can take a look at it. But, but that's what the bill does. I don't know if you have quorum now, so, alright,

Thank you Mr. Chairman. I would make a motion that, uh, we delete title and body Senate bill 21 and replace it with first substitutes Senate bill. Second, Second. Oh, second. Second. Substitute 21. Thank You. Thank you for the motion motions that we delete Title on body Senate bill 21 and replace it with second substitute Senate Bill 21.

We have a substituted bill before us. Yeah. And I'll just conclude and open up for questions.

It, it came out today.

Stricken? Yeah. Yeah. And we, we've been trying to grandfather people in and there's a period of time where folks will have to reserve their rights if, if they wanna stay grandfathered in. And some, some, some of that, you'll, you'll see down in line 1 31, 1 32 where they, where they're gonna have to go reserve, reserve those rights. But we are trying to grandfather people in.

Thank you, chair Owens and members of the committee. Uh, my name is Terry Camp. I'm the Vice President of, uh, public policy for the Utah Farm Bureau of Federation. Uh, we're very supportive of SB 21, uh, with the second substitute, our members support recognizing that the surface owner of land also owns, uh, the geothermal resource beneath their land unless they choose to convey it. Um, this bill moves Utah law toward the principle, this principle, while providing clearer, more predictable rules for landowners and developers. Uh, we believe it respects private property rights and creates opportunity for new energy investment. They can benefit rural communities and agriculture. And just want ask that the, the committee, um, favorably recommend the bill. Thanks.

Thanks, Mr. Chair. Mike Johnson, general counsel for sit a just wanna thank Senator Kel for his careful study of this issue over the last year working with SIT A and other affected parties. Uh, to bring some clarity to this, as the senator mentioned, it's got some protections for SIT A that match those that the federal government enjoys, uh, which we think are important. It's been the policy of this legislature and state law since 1919 for over a hundred years, that the subsurface values are reserved by SIT a when it sells the surface estate to others so that, uh, the public and, uh, the school trust can enjoy, you know, benefits that would flow from the mineral estate. Um, this would carry that forward for geothermal. And, uh, I think one of the goals of the bill is to make it easy for industry and to encourage development of geothermal resources. And TLA is very active in leasing those resources and, um, very easy for industry to work with. So, uh, we're open for business for that and think this, uh, will encourage development. So yeah, we're very supportive of the bill.

Hi, my name is Sam Herney. I'm the regional Government Affairs manager for Zanskar, geothermal and Minerals. It's very odd sitting on this side of the desk after six and a half years with you all up there. I bet it is Sam. Um, but I'm happy to be here. Um, we first of all wanna thank Senator Mikel for bringing this bill forward. He's done a lot of work on this and, and we've had the opportunity to discuss, um, our overall support for the bill. The policy direction is something that we're very interested in. Um, we do have just some brief concerns with the second substitute that just came out, and we're looking to continue to work with Senator Mikel on that regarding that the grandfather clause that we mentioned. Um, we're just concerned that it might not adequately protect some of our existing leases in the state that we've signed. So we just wanna see if we can keep having that conversation and keep working towards, uh, an adequate solution for all of us. So thank you so much.

Ahead. Thank you Mr. Chairman. Good afternoon Committee members. My name's Kim Christie. I'm the director of the Land Trust Protection and Advocacy Office. For those of you that are not aware, of course, when you look at the trust system structure, the Trust Lands administration or sit a of course administers the land assets of the trust Cifo, the fund office administers the investment portfolio. My office is the office that represents the 12 different beneficiaries that are tied to the trust. Oftentimes, of course, we think of trust lands and we think specifically of schools, but there are literally 11 other trust institutions that also tie into the trust. Um, as you probably know, uh, the US geologic survey has recognized the geothermal fairway. Um, and within that fairway, we understand that there's over 200,000 acres of split estate that tie into these beneficiaries that I, or many of these beneficiaries that I've referenced. And I just want to, again, express appreciation also to Senator Mikel for his sensitivity and also for the proactive nature of sit a as they have worked with the state engineer to try and move this in a direction that clarifies where we feel very good about where it has landed with this second substitute. And we, again, urge your support and thank you for the opportunity to comment.

Mr. Chair. Thank you for the opportunity. Uh, I'm Brandon Yardley, Beaver County Commissioner. I think as everybody is aware, there's lots of geothermal energy going on in Beaver County right now, and if anybody's dealt with mineral rights, they know how difficult it can be. Um, we deal with this, uh, on our own property throughout the county. This will clarify who owns the right and how to develop further. Um, I think it's important to move forward with the development of it, of geothermal throughout our county, especially. Um, this makes it a little easier. Um, I, and I think it's important we, we work with these energy developments, make it a little bit easier on the permitting. Uh, we need to be careful on the water rights and how we we use those, but I think this bill is a good bill. And Beaver County would be in favor. Thank you.

Yeah. Thank you. Yep. Other questions?

Uh, thank you Mr. Chairman. I would just make a motion that we pass out Senate Bill 21 second substitute favorable recommendation for the full body of the Senate. Thank you. Motions in order that we favorably recommend passed out. Senate bill 21, uh, uh, per substitute. Second substitute. Second. Thank you.

Yeah, I'm just gonna read it. A person who owns Surface of the Land owns titled The Geothermal Notwithstanding Severance or Conveyance Mineral Estate. Unless the person that owns the surface of the land expressly conveys or reserves the geothermal resource by recorded deed or other instrument conveying title. So I've been working with stakeholders. This was the language they, they gave me. And what we're trying to do is set the policy in the state. We're trying to tie the geothermal to the surface, but we're also trying to protect those who have gone out and, and secured this research, this resource. And this is the language that they feel, feel is most helpful to that need.

Alright, and just to, just to the bill, I'm, I'm happy to answer questions. Uh, just brief what we're doing is we're tying the geothermal to the surface owner, but we're also reserving set setler rights to the mineral estate that's Similar. I'm sorry, let me, I did not call the, the vote on that motion to amend.

I got ahead of myself. Sorry.

Um, again, what we're doing is just adopting our policy for geothermal. So in a normal circumstance, it would be tied to the surface. Um, the exception of that are groups like Sila and they're, they're able to reserve geothermal to that mineral estate that's consistent with federal, federal, federal grounds. With that, I'm open for questions.

Uh, I move this bill pass And the question is, shall second substitute Senate 21 as amended pass roll co vote.

of the president, Madam Reading Clerk Third substitute Senate Bill 21 Geothermal amendments by Senator Mikel. This bill was heard in public utilities and energy with a vote of 9 0 3.

Thank you Mr. Speaker Pro. Tim, I, uh, make a motion to move the fourth sub That's in order. Would you like to speak to that motion? Sure. Uh, it takes out, uh, the amendment that we passed earlier in the process, amendment number one, and, uh, just goes back to the language before. So made everybody happy.

I'll waive That motion is now up.

Thank you. Thank you Mr. Speaker ProAm. What this bill does is it, it updates our geothermal resources law to clarify ownership and strengthen the framework for geothermal electricity development in the state and refines regulatory requirements. So it establishes that a person who owns the surface of the land also owns title to the geothermal resources unless they've been expressly conveyed or reserved. It provides clarity for investors and developers who are trying to unlock, uh, the geothermal energy potential in the state of Utah. Um, it requires, uh, water rights for geothermal fluid use, which aligns geothermal extraction with Utah's water laws framework to protect existing water users. And, uh, why this matters. Uh, for landowners, it provides clearer ownership rights regarding underground geothermal resources for energy developers. It reduces uncertainty and supports investment in future geothermal energy. And for Utah's energy future, it supports responsible development of a reliable domestic energy source, which is 24 by seven. Mr. Speaker ProAm and I'll take any questions. Thank you.

I'll waive Mr. Speaker ProAm

Fourth substitute Senate bill 21 passes this body with 67 yay votes, one nay vote and will be sent to the Senate for further consideration. Madam Reading Clerk

Thank you. Thank you Mr. Speaker ProAm. What this bill does is it, it updates our geothermal resources law to clarify ownership and strengthen the framework for geothermal electricity development in the state and refines regulatory requirements. So it establishes that a person who owns the surface of the land also owns title to the geothermal resources unless they've been expressly conveyed or reserved. It provides clarity for investors and developers who are trying to unlock, uh, the geothermal energy potential in the state of Utah. Um, it requires, uh, water rights for geothermal fluid use, which aligns geothermal extraction with Utah's water laws framework to protect existing water users. And, uh, why this matters. Uh, for landowners, it provides clearer ownership rights regarding underground geothermal resources for energy developers. It reduces uncertainty and supports investment in future geothermal energy. And for Utah's energy future, it supports responsible development of a reliable domestic energy source, which is 24 by seven. Mr. Speaker ProAm and I'll take any questions. Thank you.

Um, I'm gonna move to Concur and I'll explain the amendment Motion to concur to, uh, four substitute Senate bill 21, not 12.

Yes. So at, at the last minute, without speaking to the, the sponsor of this bill, somebody in the hallway added, uh, an amendment before committee and that amendment was unfriendly and has been removed from the bill. And the bill is the same that we passed over here. This is just our geothermal policy and it it's a great policy. It's sets our standard for how we deal with geothermal in the state of Utah and we empower, we use state water rights and it's really efficient, but without I'd urge support.