S.B. 43 Land Trusts Protection and Advocacy Office Amendments: transcript

Well, thank you. That's kind of you, representative. Thank you for having us. I am, uh, glad to bring before the committee Senate Bill 43 Land Trust Protection advocacy, uh, office amendments. This bill's been in the works for, oh, almost a couple of years now. And it's a, it's a comprehensive response to a 2024 olag audit of the trust system. And I, um, I'm really proud of the team that was assembled to work on this. And, uh, which included attorneys, all of the beneficiaries in the trust system were at the table. Um, we met, like I say, maybe 18 months and many meetings. And what really strengthened the office. And one of the recommendations of the audit was the, the possibility of eliminating this office. But once we worked through, uh, all of our work and saw the need, it's the beneficiaries who would be hurt. They need this office. And especially, uh, like Dr. Douglas of the superintendent of severe school district, who he has a full-time job managing all of his students and teachers in the education system. He doesn't understand the trust system entirely. He has a great understanding for most part, but he doesn't see it day to day. This office is key to their survival. And the benefits that come to education are amazing. Um, we get a breakdown of that in each of our districts from the trust system. But I wanna make sure you're clear. This is not a trust bill. This isn't the trust that this is just about the office, the work that we've done there. I'm gonna let, uh, the, those who are part of the office understand it more, talk more about it. We have a few slides to share with the committee, and we'll take any questions after that. So, Liz, why don't you start.

Thank you. Senator Owens is a privilege to be with you this afternoon. Director Christie and I are from the advocacy office and get to work with these beneficiaries on a daily basis, and we've really appreciated the opportunity to work with Senator Owens. Representative Burton, could You, uh, tell your name for the record? Yes, I'm sorry. Liz Mumford from the Advocacy Office Program Manager. Thank you, chair. So it's Groundhog's Day, and I know some of you feel like you've maybe heard about this bill a few times, but we've really tried to keep you apprised of the process because the study group has really spent a lot of time evaluating the trust system over the history over the last year. And they've looked at best practices across the country. And it's important to see where this office fits in context of the full system. And so our role is to represent the trust beneficiaries that Senator Owens described largely public education, but all of the beneficiaries. There's 11 others that received distributions. The genesis of this study group, and the work that's happened over the last year really comes back to some OLA audits that happened in 2024. So one audit focused specifically on Umsla and their operations. And you'll remember last year, Representative Walter ran a bill and it resolved those audit recommendations for Cila. This is, um, this bill that's before you today is SB 43, and it's in response to the trust system audit, which addressed the advocacy office. Um, over the last year, the study group that was authorized by the legislature has been meeting consistently. It represented stakeholders from across the system, including the beneficiaries. And they met monthly, often, even more frequently, to start drafting changes and considered everything from a repeal to a refinement to possibly restructuring the office, placing it in different agencies, and really came to the conclusion that an independent office was essential to properly represent the trust beneficiaries. The key elements in the bill are in the policy sheet that was shared with you. It summarizes, um, the, the line numbers that correspond to each part of the audit. Um, it's important to note that, um, representative Walter's bill last year brought the important point that each beneficiary needs to be better articulated in statute. And so this bill lists each beneficiary, their modern agencies, how they tie back to the enabling Act. And we integrated other feedback from Representative Walter. It requires spend plans, approvals, acceptable use, um, lists, accounting and reporting from the institutional beneficiaries. You know, how strong the guidelines and rules are for public education in how they use their trust distributions through community councils. And the institutional beneficiaries had no similar guidelines. And so we've worked hard to create that transparency and accountability. One, um, we thought it would be interesting for you to know an, a unique example that, um, is a, an outcome of this bill. There was carry forward that the auditors found at these institutional beneficiaries, and there was no mechanism for addressing those large carry out forward balances. And the bill now creates an avenue that the state treasurer could approve, prove a reduction or a pause on distributions when a beneficiary has a large carry forward. It also addresses the at will nature of the trust advocacy office director's position, and creates an avenue to appoint or remove the director. And finally, there's no fiscal note attached to this bill. So it's, it's straightforward. There's no cost to taxpayers, and we feel like being strong stewards of these trust proceeds is critical. The final results of this bill, if it is to be passed, is better beneficiary representation, distribution, accountability, and trust system integrity. Um, knowing how important it is that we've gone through the process, we wanted just to bring to your attention the supporters of this bill. Every member of the study group unanimously supported the bill. We worked closely with Cifo and SLA and both of those agency directors have expressed official support for the bill. It's also supported by the state treasurer and the advocacy committee. Uh, all of the trust beneficiaries participated in study groups and, um, subcommittees to make sure that their agencies and institutions could comply with the requirements that are in this new bill. It had the official endorsement as a committee bill from your interim committee, and there's other statewide agencies that support this, that represent stakeholders like Utah, PTA, and the School Board Association and, and the superintendents. So we appreciate, um, you listening to this multiple times and kind of understanding the complexities. It's a long bill. Many of the pieces in it are conforming changes for TLA and cifo, and then the heart of the bill is really good changes for the advocacy office that strengthen the trust system. We just wanna end with these quotes from some committee members. Not all of them were able to be here today, but they express their strong support for the bill and the robust process that it went through. And with that, I'll turn it over to Senator VINs and Mr. Christie. Go ahead.

Okay. Thank you very much, Liz. Thank you Mr. Chairman, members of the committee. My name is Kim Christie, I'm the director of the Land Trust Protection and Advocacy Office. As both the senator and Liz have pointed out, this has been a very robust process that has engaged multiple stakeholders, and we're just so pleased with the outcome of what has come to pass. To just give you a little feel for the robust nature of this. First of all, I want to publicly express our appreciation to the good senator or Senator Owens, and also Representative Burton who co-chaired the study group. But I have to say, as Liz mentioned, there was a, a legal subcommittee that was part of the overall process. We went through literally 20 iterations of what you now have before you, before it ultimately was born and, and su and fully supported by the study group, as I mentioned. But, uh, this has been fully vetted and we're very proud of, of the, the process that we've gone through. I have to admit, you know, I'm one of the older guys in the room here, obviously, but, uh, I've had the privilege of working on and staffing, frankly, a lot of task forces and study groups over the years. But this one honestly takes the cake in terms of just the robust nature. And I'm very proud of how detailed we didn't leave any stones unturned. Um, let me also say too, that, uh, I think many of you are quite intimately familiar with the trust system and how it's evolved since the reset occurred in the early 1990s, beginning with the restructuring of SIT a followed by the creation of a very unique model. In fact, it's not even applied in any other state across the nation, but the community council concept followed by the fund office, the cifo, which was created in 2014, and then later our office, this bill, we really believe just adds to the overall quality of what we are respected as as a trust system here across the nation. But also, again, it's all about checks and balances. And we believe this bill just further clarifies the role of this office and the importance of the accountability that the beneficiaries have and how they spend their distributions from the system. Thank you, Mr. Mr. Chairman. Senator?

Yeah, I'll just wrap up. Um, thank you for your time. This has been quite a process. I went into this with, uh, the idea that, uh, Apollo, the audit and, um, consider the, uh, melting this office down it, that's not the, that's not the way to go forward. I can tell you that as fellow legislators, the beneficiaries need this and, uh, they rely on this office and we have gone to every extent we can of the recommendations of the audit. And it's much more robust now and transparent and more effective. So, and also, nobody got paid for anything on all of these meetings, including a representative and I, so it was, whenever you can get four attorneys in a room and four 20 iterations of a bill for free, that was a big win. I thought we, we got that disclosed that out of them, but they were so detailed and, um, so it, it's with a little pride that we bring this bill before you today take any questions.

Yeah. Thank you Mr. Chair. So, I remember when the bill came last session and when it originally came here, it was to, the proposal was almost to dissolve your office and just eliminate it mid audit, like before, while the audit was just still collecting data and just eliminate it entirely. And then we, uh, tweaked that, let the audit finish its thing and then let let it take its course. And it sounds like it's been a little bit of a refiner's fire as you sharpen the purpose of your office. I was wondering if you could, uh, maybe highlight some of the, um, things that have been refined and brought in with a, a better purpose into your office. And I just had, I, I've been in the energy industry, I've seen where they have an office of rate payers, advocates in some states where they're looking out for the rate payers or the beneficiaries. And so I've seen an industry where an office like yours has a beneficial purpose. I'd love to hear some of the, uh, like things that have been refined and Chair and where you guys are focused.

Thank you. Great question. We'll have Liz, um, itemize those. I think she could lay that out easiest for us.

Yeah, thank you, representative Shellenberger. You remember that well. And we appreciate the legislators who were willing to, um, entertain that substitution last year that let this process play out. Um, you bring up a really excellent point that an audit's never fun for an agency to go through, but we feel like this office is positioned to be stronger because of the audit. A few of the key takeaways besides a lot of the structural changes that you see in there, and the interagency dynamics that were addressed through this bill, is we see a reduced risk for litigation because of some of the mediation and other responsibilities that have been assigned to the, to the office. There's also a, a role that the office takes on as becoming an, an official notice, um, the conduit for official notices. And that creates a, a consistent way for beneficiaries to know when they're getting information that's accurate and timely about trust transactions. There's a lot of turnover at these institutions, and we find, especially in higher ed on a very regular basis, offices aren't aware that they're receiving distributions. And so our office can be that continuity to ensure smooth processes. We also take on a role for training on fiduciary principles and creating training that's available to the beneficiaries, to the advocacy committee and to the trust agencies and just the advocacy in general. We take on a little piece, um, in the bill that says, we are have a responsibility to educate the public. And we feel strongly that when the public and community councils and members of the community know about the trust, then they take ownership of these, um, the lands and take stewardship of that as well. So it's an important part of the integrity of the trust system. One last thing I would add representative to that is, uh, part of this too is that the director's position now is at will. So if you have not that director Christie to be that person, but you have a rogue director that comes in and just is not in line with what we want, then that position, um, which gives me some comfort as a legislator, it's, it's at will. And you can make that change without major litigation.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I was, uh, uh, interested in making a comment and, and asking the, uh, making a comment about what the, the Senator Vickers, um, said. I, I intended to ask if he felt like he'd learned anything, but I think he kind of, uh, alluded to the fact that he had, since this started, learns a few things. And I appreciate that. I I was gonna mention that, uh, uh, it's been fascinating me 'cause I've kind of kept tabs on what you guys have been doing and, uh, I've learned a lot more about, uh, other beneficiaries besides the school. Uh, everything. Um, you know, I've, uh, been on a community, uh, committee and, and helped, uh, with the distribution funds in my area. And, uh, we always think more of the, the school, uh, the school sections, the school and, and there's a lot more to it. And it's interesting to think how that's evolved from statehood to where we're at now. And actually, it's been interesting to me to think how many people have not got as good understanding, but I think we've got a lot better understanding because of things that are done at the office and things that have been brought out, especially during this, uh, this period that you guys have been working on this. And, and I appreciate the time you've put in and stuff and, uh, and the information that you've shared with me. So, uh, I think that, uh, this is a good, a good step forward.

Okay. Sorry. Don't fall down. I hope not. Um, Sherry, mad Utah, PTAI, um, Utah, PTA has taken a position of support on Senate Bill 43. We believe this bill strikes strengthens the oversight and accountability within Utah School and institutional trust system. Um, Utah, PTA support is grounded in longstanding resolutions. The first Utah PTA resolution on trust lands was, um, brought by a woman named, um, now Sandra s Schon, scen from down in Monticello. And back in, she started the process in 1989. Anyway, Utah, PTA adopted a resolution, um, encouraging the state to, um, take care of the trust lands for the beneficiaries in 1990. And, um, Utah, PTA has had an interest in this ever since. Um, and we just updated our, our Trust Lands resolution just last month, it was, um, ratified and also there is a national PTA resolution on trust lands. And so we urge you to support this legislation to help ensure that Utah's trust lands continue to serve their vital purpose, supporting and enriching public education for generations to come. And I wanted to say that I usually agree with Otto von Bismarck that the two things you don't wanna see being made are sausages and laws. But as I attended all the meetings during the summer of the work group, um, not the attorney part of the work group, but the public meetings, um, I would disagree with that quote because it was good to see all the collaboration that went through and how they, um, worked together. And I do think this is good, and I wanted to thank you all for your service and your commitment to Utah's children and urge you to vote in favor of this bill. Thank you.

Thank you committee. My name's Michelle McConkey. I'm the Director of the School and Institutional Trust Lands Administration. So I am over the agency that manages the land and make some money from the trust lands. I wanted to express our appreciation as well. We were able to be involved in the process, and I think where we landed, um, is a, is a much better place. It cleans up and clarifies the roles of the different parts of the organizations, and it is very helpful to us to be able to have one organization, um, to be able to reach out and contact and work with directly our to, with our beneficiaries. So we know that they're getting the information and that we can have that one contact so we can keep managing the land and making money and have the, that organization doing their jobs. And so we would urge, uh, the committee to support this. Thank you.

Yeah, I'll give, I'll give you that. Um, k Douglas Severe School District Superintendent. Um, I just wanted to jump on really quickly. I was a member of the study group. It was a great process. I, I really feel like it was a great example of the Utah way. You know, we, we had a lot of healthy, what I would call healthy debate, a little bit of unhealthy debate. There was a lot of debate. Um, some processes, lots of meetings for a year and a half, like Senator Owens said. Um, wanted to thank Senator Owens, Representative Burton for all of their work. Um, I always say trust lands in schools are the funds that we use for Inno Innovation and Intervention, and they're a major part of why Utah is so successful in our public education system. They're, they're a lifeline to us. Super important. This, this bill does what everyone says has already said. It does. It, it strengthens the advocacy office, which allows them to continue to communicate with us as beneficiaries so that we can advocate for ourselves. It, it's a great, this has been a great process, um, representing our joint legislative committee, which is all, uh, su su all superintendents throughout the state, business administrators and school board members. We, we fully support this bill and, and urge your support of it as well. Thank you.

I'd like to make a motion for a positive recommendation on what is this Senate Bill 43 to the house.

Um, yeah. End of, uh, quite a process here. And that's okay. We're not afraid of work. Um, I think for the first a hundred years, we squandered our trust of the system, uh, as a state. But, uh, 20, 30 years ago, we made some changes and have become the envy of most states in the country with this system. And under the direction of Michelle McConkey, I had just seen nothing but great things ahead for all the beneficiaries. So, like I say, I was not on board to begin with, but at the end of the process and seeing the benefit this brought to the beneficiaries who need this and want it, um, I'm proud to be a part of the work. So thank you.

to the motion Representative Chew. So, um, I appreciate those comments, but I, I, I, I, uh, I don't hesitate, but I wanna, uh, not totally agree with you on, on a comment you just barely made. Uh, you said that you think that for the first while we squandered, um, I, I think that's a little strong. We were under a different, a different purpose of our, of our trust lands. And and I think many people don't really understand that. I know you do. And I know, uh, that part of our purpose, of our trust lands was another opportunity to, to get hands into private over ownership, because many of our, our settlers that came here did not have the opportunity to homestead. And, uh, I don't want to keep harboring on that, but, but they had may have, we only had, citizens only had one opportunity. And so they, uh, may have used that up before they came to Utah and they would not. And so it gave our, uh, citizens another opportunity. But it did, I do agree with you. We had too big of a lag between when that was important and, and when we arrived at, at Create and Sitler. So, uh, anyway, thanks for that. But as you know, you and I have, uh, don't, don't hesitate if we, uh, feel we need to butt heads, we might do it. Amen. Anyway, I I, I, I appreciate what you said, but I, uh, wanted to make that clarification.

response to a 2024 alle, uh, audit of the trust system. Although this is really not a sitler bill, uh, it does have some conforming changes to the sit l section. Uh, what it does is, uh, addresses a couple of audit, uh, gaps that the audit discovered. Clarity of roles and responsibilities and accountability for trust, uh, distributions. I, I do have president, um, some technical just spelling error and, um, moving of a apostrophe. I have an amendment in my name, uh, would like to move to adopt amendment one in my name. Thank you. That motion's in order? Uh, again, any further explanation on the amendment? Yeah, these are just, uh, instead of reservoirs, it puts an a, a capital on and public buildings adds an apostrophe. So just a couple of minor, nothing that's consequential to the policy.

You. Uh, Mr. President, uh, there are A few bills like this one that you pass unanimously in an interim committee in one state and are are receiving, you know, technical, you know, they don't really change the policy. Um, but there are, we'll hear a couple of these that are gonna be substituted or amended with minor changes, major changes we sent back to committee. This we felt was fine to go forward. I just bring it up so that the body knows that they've been vetted. Uh, it, we may want to just send this to third reading rather than straight across. Um, I suppose that would be up to you, Mr. President as a, as a presiding officer, we've already suspended the rules, but just to add, uh, just some context, uh, typically we wouldn't, uh, uh, amend a unanimous committee bill on the floor. We would take care of that in committee, but there, there were a couple of bills with very minor technical amendments like this. One of those is actually mine, right? Where just we're changing a reference number to be the right reference. Um, so, uh, I just leave that for the body.

Motion. You president, I appreciate, uh, good colleagues, um, explanation of this and, uh, yeah, it wouldn't, I've been presented, uh, as that without these just being technical. So with that I got, I got ahead of myself.

Thank you President. And, uh, this, this was, uh, adopted as a unanimous committee bill in natural resources, agriculture and Environment. After extensive work of about 14 months by, uh, uh, uh, committee, uh, many stakeholders, it strengthens the trust system for future in, uh, generations increasing distributions and beneficiary impact. Fully resolved all audit findings and approves the accountability, clarity, and trust governance. That's what the bill does. I would be open to questions.

Senator Vickers. Baldry. Lewin Aye. Brammer Aye. Bus Comore Escamilla Fillmore Grover Harper Kinins Ipson. Johnson. K Juab McKay Aye. Mikel Milner. Musselman Aye. Owens Aye. Pitcher. Plum Rebi. Sandal Aye. Stevenson Stratton Vickers Weer Aye. Wilson Aye. Winterton Aye. President, president Adams S and i

of the president. Madame Reading Clerk Senate Bill 43, land Trust, protection and Advocacy Office amendments by Senator Owens. This bill was assert in Natural Resources, agricultural and Environment with a vote of 9 0 5. The House sponsors Representative Burton, Representative Burton.

Thank you Ms. Speaker. Senate Bill 43 is a comprehensive response to an OLA audit of the trust system. It identifies the roles and responsibilities and the gaps that were, uh, need in need of repair. And it fixes those. It's not a sit a bill and language is developed after a, a, a year long and interim study, uh, with, uh, a robust committee and all the key players, uh, that work in this field. Uh, this what this bill does. It directly addresses each legislative audit recommendation and defines advocacy office roles and responsibilities. And it also further defines the executive director position and, uh, clearly points out that's an at will position. Uh, it requires spending plans, accounting and oversight standards. And it was accepted, uh, by all stakeholders, uh, by acclimation. The impact of this bill is it fixes those audit findings. It repairs that it strengthens the trust system for the future. And, uh, it, uh, protects the legislative fiduciary role in, in this, uh, endeavor. And, uh, finally no fiscal note at all. No, no cost to taxpayers With that, I, I'd appreciate your support of Senate Bill 43.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise in support of this bill. Um, our, um, trust funds are such an important part of a important source of funding for our schools and the Land Trust Protection and Advocacy Office has played a key role in helping watch out and protect our beneficiaries. But there were, um, there did need to be a lot more clarifications and more structure around the role of this office and appreciate the work of the working group over the past year, um, to do the, the deep dive to ensure that the office is effective. So thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I, I'm noticing that in this commission that there are people from the industries and because I wasn't in that particular committee, maybe I'm a little bit ignorant of this, but I'm wondering why we don't have somebody who is kind of represented representing the educational interest in these lands as well. That are you asking sponsor To yield? Oh, yes. Can, yeah. Can May

I will. Thank you. Yes. Yes, representative Pat.

Okay. Thank you. Mr. Speaker, I'm just wondering why we don't have somebody who represents the educational interests on this commission as well. Can you answer that?

Yes, of course. There was somebody on there. And if, if that's not listed, that's an omission because we had an education representative there for all of our meetings.

Thank you. I'm not seeing it, so if you could show that to me, that'd be great.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Uh, appreciate the opportunity to speak in favor of this bill. As, uh, many of you know, last year I had a bill to actually, um, uh, essentially Sunset the Land Trust Advocacy and Protection Office. Um, I was, uh, uh, very much involved in this negotiation and the, um, trying to work through a good long-term solution that would help this agency, um, operate in a capacity that allow them to cooperate very well with Cifo and sit a, um, the board composition is, uh, structured in such a way that the number one beneficiary here is the schools in the state of Utah. And, um, they have been huge in, uh, uh, advocating for this particular outcome today. And so, um, I would just wanna make sure that the body knows that the, that this entire bill is designed to, uh, support the interests of public schools and the remaining bene and the, and the other beneficiaries. There's a total of 14, but it's designed to, to support public schools and those beneficiaries, um, in their specific interests and they are wholeheartedly supportive of and, uh, behind, uh, this particular bill. So thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Oops, go Ahead, speaker. Um, again, I think this bill is very important as a state, we do this very well. We protect these trust lands and we try to get maximum value, uh, from them for on behalf of the students of our schools. And I just appreciate your support on the bill. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.