S.B. 45 Kratom Adjustments: transcript

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Lemme grab this iPad to, and, and I recognize this is a contentious bill today. I don't, I don't think it should be. Do you care if I pass something out? Each

And just so I signal, so you know who I have here present, there are a fair number of folks that do wanna present with me. Um, Ryan Sto worthy is an ER doc. He's trying to zoom in, so if we can find him, that will be good. Um, Dr. Michael Moss from Utah, poison Control Medical Director. Um, Dr. Brandon Forsyth, our Utah State Lab Director. He's here. I know the statewide of prosecutors. They're here. They wanted to weigh in the Utah Medical Association. Also wanted to weigh in. And then with me, I didn't have a chance to look. We were voting on bills in the other, the other, the other room. Um, Dr. Deidre Amro, DHHS, medical Examiner, me and Megan Meyer, DHHS, overdose Prevention Research Coordinator. Her research is, is fascinating and very, very helpful. There was a youth group outside. They also wanted to talk about this bill, um, online. I know there's a lot of folks who wanna talk about it. One person in particular I'd like to have his comments is Dean Francis. So he, he's online not necessarily part of my presentation, but, um, what, what I handed out to you right now, um, this issue has got a lot of attention. It got a lot of attention through the interim. We actually had a committee hearing in the interim. And, and I know Senator Vickers, you also Chair Vickers, you also had a hearing. Both of those bills were unanimous. Um, we have a problem in our state right now, um, with Raum, and I appreciate the hearing you had here last week. I, I know the focus was on seven oh h And I wanna put one thing on the record that I think is incredibly important. Um, I, I went out in the community and bought Kratom. I Uintah 15 different gas stations. And what I learned is that Kratom is easy to buy. There were places where they checked my id, there were places where they did not, um, I had the Kratom tested. Um, the test levels for the 7 0 8 were within the legal limits, but these were creds that were still incredibly potent, incredibly harmful. Um, I think the one thing that is missing from the discussion is that our bodies metabolize miroy, the other alkaloid, and they metabolize it into seven oh h And, and I think you had a very good hearing talking about seven oh h and the problems with seven oh h Um, as I bought Raum, one of the things I asked every clerk, I said, sell me what people buy. And I bought it. I bought, I had probably 20 samples, nine that I tested. And everything that was sold to me that people buy, um, was extracted and more potent than the pure form of Kratom. Um, we had a hearing about it. Uh, we talked about it at length. And one of the votes that I regret in 2019, we passed the Kratom Protection Act. I was told that Kratom was safe and it wasn't a problem. And, and I think what you're gonna see today with the witnesses here today, that that's simply not true. We've had substantial problems in the state of Utah. We've had loss of life, and, and I know there's gonna be an effort to focus the attention on 7 0 8 as if 7 0 8 is the only problem. Um, I, I would invite you to pay attention to the actual medical experts that talk today about their experience. That's just simply not true. Um, the document I handed out today is a, is a, is an unclassified document from the United States Navy as well as the United States Marines. And on January 14th of this year, if you look in paragraphs three and four, Kratom Ragy and seven Hydroxy are both banned, um, per per military order. Right. Right now, um, the, the Creto Protection Act was passed in multiple states, but it, it, uh, it has also, there's been a reversal in a number of states. A number of states have seen the, seen the problem. So, so with that, I'd like to invite some of, some of my witnesses up to talk about the problems with Creto. And I'm hoping Dr. St. Worthy is able to get on. And I'd like to start with Dr. St. Worthy. He is a medical doctor, er doctor up in Cash County. Yeah.

Um, if, if he is, if he's available online, I'd like him to start. If not, I know we've got some folks in the room.

Name is Dr. Ryan Sto.

Oh, I can, Can you see me?

You bet. I'm an emergency physician, uh, working outta Logan Regional Hospital. I trained in, uh, Southern California at Loma Lynndyl Lynndyl University. Uh, Kratom is something that we're seeing, uh, increasingly more frequent in the emergency department here. And the two main issues that we're seeing with Kratom. Uh, uh, we serve an area about 170,000 people. And the two issues that we're seeing with Kratom is overdose with Kratom, as well as withdrawal for Kratom. Uh, so we had one death, uh, I believe in the last four, uh, four months, uh, with a kram overdose. Uh, it was believed to be Creto. Uh, and, uh, the other Bel uh, the other thing that we're seeing fairly routinely now more frequently is, uh, withdrawal. A lot of the patients that I'm taking care of that are using CRE regularly, uh, d uh, are changing it or stopping it, not realizing, uh, that they're, the, the withdrawal is so severe, so they're having come to the emergency department, received IV fluids and, and medications to try to help them through the withdrawal process. So it's been really tricky, really hard. Um, I, I think one of the biggest concerns that we have is that it's so, uh, similar obviously to, uh, narcotic. It actually is reversed by Narcan, uh, which is the re uh, the antidote reversal, uh, for any type of narcotic overdose. Uh, so it's something, it's a big concern. A lot of the patients that I'm working with that use Kratom, they did not know that it was so potent or, uh, potentially toxic. And I think as alluded to by Senator Kel, one of the biggest issues is there's so much variability and it's potency and it's, uh, it's, it, it varies for every patient because there's no regulations in the way it's produced or the amount that's therein. Uh, does anybody have any questions?

Yes, I did. I'm just wondering, on the cranium death that you referenced, um, were there any other substances in the deceased body, or was it just exclusively kratom, or is it kre mixed with other things?

Yeah, the medical, uh, examiner has told us that it was, uh, just kratom.

Thank you. Maybe if I could have a follow up question, doctor. Um, you know, I've heard a lot of, a lot of times when we've, uh, done researching with the death, there's significant amount of, of, uh, seven hydroxy in, in that particular product. Do you know if the, that particular product or other products that you've, that you've researched the related in death? Uh, were, were high in seven hydroxy.

Yeah. I, I actually don't know the answer to that. I apologize.

Hi. Thanks for having me. I'm Mike Moss. I'm medical director of the Utah Poison Control Center. We're in the College of Pharmacy at the University of Utah. Uh, my background's emergency medicine as well, uh, but I spend my time doing medical toxicology and addiction medicine. So I take care of all things drug, whether it's overdose or, or withdrawal. Uh, we have seen an increase in cases reported to us at the Poison Center over the last several years. There was an increase when Kratom sort of came online in Utah. And now we've doubled that again in the last year or two, that our cases have doubled, uh, with regards to Kratom. And of course now we're also seeing the seven hydroxy cases. We get voluntary reports both from the general public, from healthcare professionals like Dr. St Stallworth, who might call us at the Poison Center for advice. And we're hearing of those same things, people who have an adverse effect from taking it, combining it with, uh, other medications that could be sedating. Patients experiencing withdrawal in the worst case, severe overdoses that have required hospitalization or in some cases even death, both from CRE and from seven Hydroxy. Uh, there are definitely two different pieces here. The purified or synthesized seven hydroxy is very potent, and we have people who are unwittingly having overdoses with just one or two tablets. Uh, creem is a bit different where we have people who may have, uh, developed quite a habit or addiction to cre 'em without necessarily knowing what it was, or maybe using it on purpose to come off of other opioids. But then finding that they are buying unlimited quantities at unlimited doses and spending also unlimited amounts of, of money and then ending up with a severe addiction to create 'em. Um, I don't think there's any reason for someone to have access to the purified seven hydroxy. This would be like selling oxycodone or stronger opioids in the gas station, which we do not do, uh, at, at all. Creto is also somewhat unusual. Uh, Utah's already taken the step to ban similar substances that other states have, like t Neptune. Uh, we haven't talked about t Neptune because we were good at getting rid of it and making it scheduled before it really reared its head here in Utah. Uh, but we've got Kratom to deal with both on the pure or the regular natural product as well as seven hydroxy. That's causing significant issues for us with both overdose and withdrawal.

Hello, I'm Dr. Brandon Forsyth, the director of the State Lab for the Utah Department of Agriculture and Food. Um, the division that regulates, uh, kratom in the state. Prior to working for the Department of Agriculture, I worked up at the University of Utah doing, uh, in the Center for Human Toxicology, doing opioid research, specifically in opioid metabolism. Um, and that'll come relevant here in a little bit. So proponents of this are, are proponents of kratom are making arguments that, uh, seven oh H is already regulated in the KCPA as well as your synthetic creto alkaloids such as pseudo and doxyl and others. And they're correct. Those are already regulated and are honestly not present in most of the products that are registered in the state. Well, any of the products that are registered, but even most of the products we find those aren't present. But we're still seeing Utah's being addicted to and having opioid like addictions to low 7 0 8 products. Research published in the a CS Central Science Journal has demonstrated that reine is converted to the highly addictive seven oh h by liver, by the liver ends. I'm three A four. And so even if a person takes tine, their own body basically works as a factory to convert that tine into the more addictive and more potent seven oh h and it'll go into their system and still cause that addiction. And any other negative health, health outcomes associated with seven oh h. Beyond that addiction, kram has been associated with liver damage. Um, your sips, uh, your digestive enzymes in your liver, three A four 2D six are responsible for breaking down reine and seven hydroxy tra Janine. And it puts a big toll on your liver and any other substances that you take at the same time as this are going to still be trying to work through those enzyme as well. Many, um, alkaloids get digested by three A four and if your body can't break those down, they spend longer time circulating your body and causing whatever negative health bene or health effects that they normally would and can ultimately end up to more severe reactions to those drugs.

Um, so that I was clear. So the, are you, so if we, if they just had just natural, um, creto, the body still converts to 7 0 8, which creates the addictive qualities that we're talking about.

Yes. Even if it's pure, natural No, no chemical enhancement. Yep. Just methyine your body's good at breaking down drugs and it converts it right over to seven oh h And

I'm gonna, just, just so you know, I have the study here, a CS, central Science. I've got it with me. This comes from Columbia and New York University and it, it's, it's here. And, and that's one of the concerns we have. The, the more the products are sold in Utah, the more they're extracted, the more potent they are. Whether they have high levels of 7 0 8 at the beginning, your body converts it into 7 0 8. And that's what the science says.

One more follow up question really quick. I just wanna talk about liver damage just for a quick second because there's a lot of different products that are over the counter that cause liver, ibuprofen. My wife, unbeknownst to her liver damage for ibuprofen Very true. And, and quit using it and reversed itself, but oh my goodness. Didn't think that that would happen. Right. So I'm not sure that that, uh, motivates me as, as much because you know, there's other products, but I'm gonna make that statement allow you to respond to it.

Yeah. If, if you don't mind. 'cause you can understand there's Absolutely a lot Of products that do That. The problem is that we're seeing kratom in poly substance use deaths. And so this is contributing significantly to outcomes of people who are taking kratom as well as other drugs. Um, opioids tend to, uh, harm people or kill people through respiratory problems. But this is a totally different way that it could be harming these individuals, taking that kratom, having their liver unable to break down the other drugs in their system and then resulting in their death.

Yeah. So I understand, um, that creto Max on some of the same brain receptors as opioids, but can we agree that krems not an opioid?

Kratom is a plant, so you extract the alkaloids from Creto and you get Reine and seven hydroxy reine as well as a few other, uh, am alkaloids. But creto itself is just a plant. It's just like saying a poppy is not an opioid. It's not, but it makes it

Okay. If I can follow up, Mr. Chair, please. Um, the, uh, the liver damage that you're describing that is different than the respiratory problems, have you ever seen that if it's, uh, solely crem or is it typically, like you indicated kratom combined with other substances?

So drug drug interactions require you to have polysubstance, but there are journal articles that have demonstrated that kratom itself is damaging to the liver.

Okay. And, um, have you, um, in your personal experience, have you seen heavy metals that, uh, like lead and nickel, uh, that have been found in Creon products?

We don't test all the Creon products that we get into the lab for heavy metals, so I haven't seen that, but we haven't checked.

Okay. Have you had any instances, um, um, of cranium contaminated with bacteria like salmonella?

We've seen some higher counts, but never like a pathogenic salmonella strain that I know of. It's possible that one or two, but it's not a common thing.

Alright. Has your office recommended a ban on Krato?

Uh, we support the ban on Kratom. Okay. Um, thank you.

Okay. Okay. Let's, let's keep moving. Let's, let's take, uh, Deidra Morro, Dr. Deidra Morro and Megan, um, Meyer, and I'm gonna move out the way for them.

Okay. Well, good afternoon. Thank you for having us. I'm Dr. Deirdre Amaro. I'm the Chief Medical Examiner for the Office of Medical Examiner here in Utah. And I have with me Megan Brockmeyer, our fatality medical examiner. So at the medical examiner's office, we are literally seeing the terminal results of public health and safety problems on a daily basis. And when we talk about krato related deaths, we're talking specifically about drugs or overdose deaths associated with two components of K*m, the Reine, and the seven hydroxy reine. And I'm gonna turn it over to Megan now to talk us through the numbers we see.

Thanks. Hi again, I'm Megan Brockmeyer. Um, so we had not seen any overdoses that involved Kratom prior to 2014. Since then, we have seen a steady increase in the number of deaths involving kra. Though that number is still relatively low, so it makes up between four and 6% of all fatal drug overdoses in our state. If they kind of move forward to the most recent five years that we have data, which would be from July 1st, 2020 through June 30th, 2025. There were 158 fatal overdoses in Utah that involved krato. Um, this includes accidental, which is the vast majority, 91%, where an AC result of an accident 5%. Um, the manner of death could not be determined, and then in 4% they were intentional or suicides. Um, the main difference that we see between Kre involved overdose deaths and overdoses from other substances is that people died on average six years younger. There is also, um, a higher disparity among men. So, um, males are much more likely to die by an any type of overdose. This disparity is even wider. When we look at, uh, deaths that involve raum, um, we've seen kratom involved overdoses in most areas of our state. Um, the, the, of course the highest concentration is in Salt Lake County. Um, and then we do see some higher rates, um, especially compared to overdoses involving other substances in areas like Utah County. Um, the majority of KRA overdoses involve multiple substances. Um, 94% of overdoses during this five year period had at least one other substance on average. Um, there were four substances involved in Accredo involved death, and then the most, um, common drugs during this five year period that were found in combination with krato were fentanyl, gabapentin, um, ethanol or alcohol, methamphetamine and amphetamine. I think that is all the data that I have presented, but I'm happy to take questions. Either one of us.

Well, you may have already discussed this, but, um, I just wanted maybe him to comment on the possibility of word dosing. If, if creto is, could you get to a dosing, uh, situation somewhere? Okay. If it does have medicinal purpose.

Let's see. Is that the right one? You may need bring, let's see. I get, there we go. Thank you for present presenting. I really appreciate you coming and, and there may be some questions for you in a second. Okay. Dr. Forsyth, did you catch that question? I did.

So there is no dose recommended by the FDA or any other body that would recommend dosing for this. So there's not, is it possible that you could get to a dose that's low enough that it would not cause liver da liver damage or be, um, uh, less harmful to a person? Absolutely. You can always go to tiny, tiny amounts of anything. But if we have lots of this out there in the community, people can always just take more. Uh, this isn't something they're taking under the care of a physician. Typically. They have complete control over their own dosing. Okay.

Thank you Mr. Chair. I wanna stay there for a second.

Yeah. Okay. You, you gave a list fairly quick and I, I didn't write down fast enough, but one of them was the, basically the compounds that are being laced, you're finding laced into it. One of 'em was gabapentin, I think. Did I misunderstand that? So,

Um, you did not misunderstand in that way, but, um, we don't know how the individual ingested the drugs that were in their system that would be found to have contributor cost to their death. Um, I'm just saying simply that, um, the other drugs that were listed on the death certificate included that, um, list. So Fentanyl, um, gabapentin, those are the two most common drugs.

Alright, so the second one's, my question does fentanyls, you can set that aside. I understand gabapentin, I think that's more of a nerve blocker, but, but is that somehow, what does that mean? What's that doing? What's the combination?

Well, it's primarily in combination. Uh, gabapentin we're finding that, uh, it can being combined with other, with opioids like fentanyl or you know, oxy and other things, that, and sometimes even a benzodiazepine and those types of things is usually the combination of drugs that get people, not necessarily just the single entity, but gabapentin is adding. That's why, that's why Utah took the position to, through the advise, uh, control substance advisory council to schedule it before the federal government did. We, we put it into a controls classification before the federal government did. Then later on they scheduled it to deem because they're, they're finding the same, kind of the same thing. So yes, used, used independently, um, it is, uh, you know, used in nerve pain. Uh, it was never actually an interesting thing there is that was not the original, uh, diagnosis, the, you know, the indication for it, but, uh, it was found off label, but it's become very effective and it's used for nerve pain. But typically when you find gabapentin added to other controlled substances, that's where you get in trouble.

So the reason I was asking that chair is to try to figure out is that coincidental? Because in this circumstance right, we were just finding is it coincidental or purposeful being added to it to, to either to an enhance a high or to make it more effective. And it sounds like yeah, based on what you're saying, your experiences, it's, it's purposeful. They're adding it People that by design people are abusing it and, and specifically when they do, they add it to other things. Alright,

Thanks. And I will just mention one more thing about gabapentin. It is actually quite commonly found in fatal drug overdoses. It's the most common prescription drug found in fatal overdoses surpassing like oxycodone and morphine.

Let me, let me invite two more, two more folks up. And then when we, when we go to the public again, and there's a gentleman by the name of Dean Francis, I'd like him to talk. Um, I, I'd like for, let's go to the Utah Medical Association, Michelle Comb and then the Statewide Association of Prosecutors.

Thank you Mr. Chair. Members of the committee. Michelle McCumber representing the Utah Medical Association, thousands of physicians across the state of Utah in all specialties. Our legislative committee reviewed this bill and the Kratom issue and we've actually had issues with, uh, Kratom in the last couple of years that we've really been concerned about. So just to quickly go over kind of some of the things that we reviewed. Kratom can produce opioid, like opioid stimulant like effects. As has been mentioned. There are no uses for kranium approved by the USD or by the USA or the US Food and Drug Administration. Serious effects have been reported and people who use K*M including psychiatric, cardiovascular and gastrointestinal and respiratory problems in a small number of deaths, obviously as mentioned, which are most often linked to creto with contaminants or other drugs since Creto is effectively unregulated, it's being sold in corner convenience stores and readily available to children and adults. The potency depends on the amount taken, the formulation of the product the way it is ingested. Underlying medical con conditions, an individual may have a person's previous experience with the substance or other medic medicines that someone may be on and other factors. Krato contains over 54 distinct alkaloids with, um, Mitra, should, I can't say this one. The two Dr that were already mentioned. Mi trata gene being the most abundant, other significant complex includes seven hydroxy and many others that are responsible for the stimulant and sedative effects of Kratom. People who use Kratom report, both stimulant light effects and effects that are similar to opioids. Inss CRE consumption can lead to addiction and all the attendant issues that go with addiction. In case reports, clinicians report seeing patients with a wide range of rare but serious adverse effects. ASSO associated with CRE exposure, including, again, mental and neurological symptoms, confusion, tremors and seizures, heart and lung problems, high blood pressure and slow breathing, gastrointestinal problems, nausea and vomiting, and liver problems. As mentioned, because KRA is not very regulated, has not gone through the FDA process and is indicated to become the new opioid like problem. And we all know where we are on and have been fighting, um, with opioids. The Utah Medical Association supports Senator ML'S bill that puts alkaloids found in or derived from Kratom as a Schedule one controlled substance. Thank you.

Carl, Carl Holland. And then I know there's members of the public, um, Walt Plum wanted to talk as well about his experience, but we'll, we'll get,

Thank you Mr. Chair, members of the committee. My name is Carl Holland. I'm the Executive director for the Statewide Association of Prosecutors. I'm not an expert in the science, uh, that all of the previous doctors have spoken to you on, uh, but what the statewide Association of Prosecutors did in looking at this bill and whether or not we'd support it, is looked at the effect of raum in our criminal justice system here in Utah, as well as what other states are seeing. Uh, and, uh, the committee may or may not be aware, there are seven other states in Washington DC that have also banned raum, uh, as Utah is now proposing to do through Senator Mikel, uh, in Utah specifically, some of the things that we're seeing is the interference of Kratom with the rehabilitation of those who are trying to become sober from other illegal drugs. Sometimes these people are intentionally taking Kratom as a different way to assist them in kicking their addiction of illegal drugs and then finding that they become addicted. Other times, uh, they're not understanding that this is going to become what, uh, those in our drug courts are calling a pathway back into addiction. And they're becoming addicted to kratom. They're experiencing the same sorts of euphoria that they felt on those illegal substances. They're experiencing some of the same withdrawal systems and then they're turning back to their addictions that they were being rehabilitated to, and that we believe is going to negatively affect, uh, the efficacy of our treatment and rehabilitation programs in courts to help addicts. Uh, another thing that is seen in other states, particularly in law enforcement around the nation, is the intentional targeting of minors and children with bright colors, sweet flavors, uh, and red availability of these crad products in corner gas stations right next to the same, uh, sodas and energy drinks that our kids are picking up in the gas stations. Now, I think Senator ml's experience was that some of the stores weren't even checking his identification when he was buying it. I don't think he passes for a minor. Uh, but it is troubling to think that these are products that, uh, children in our community might have access to. Uh, one of the other big problems that law enforcement around the nation has, uh, brought to others' attention and that I found as I was looking into this, uh, issue are the public safety issues that come with the lack of knowledge that people who are using these Creon products, uh, have, they don't understand the effects and the impairing effects on their bodies. Uh, and they're seeing an increase in creto related DUIs, which they're not really able to test for with our current lab science. Uh, and, and we are concerned about the, the impact of public safety on this, uh, for those reasons. Uh, prosecutors in the state support Senator ml's. Bill, I have, I'm open for any questions if you have any for me though.

Alright, Senator Vickers, just, just before you go to the public, um, there, there was a youth group from St. George, they were here and wanted to talk about it. I just wanna emphasize one, one more, one more, one more point, and I've, and I've said it before, um, high amounts of pure raum increase seven hydroxy in your body, it metabolizes it. Dr. Forsyth testified to that today. And, and that is the concern. We, and, and, and the other problem, um, using pure raum, you can make seven hydroxy a simple YouTube search will, will teach you how to do that. Um, if, if we want to resolve this issue, solve this issue, we we do need a ban on both. I know it's hard. You're gonna hear from people who are gonna talk about how they got off opioids and, and with all due respect, and I mean this with respect, replacing one opioid and one addiction for another is not truly getting off opioids or addiction. Um, with, with that, um, chair, I, I'm happy to take any further questions or, or I'll defer back to you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. So how, in the big picture, yeah, we banned this from convenience stores. How are we gonna ban it from everywhere else?

That's a great question. And, and actually chair, chair Vickers and I and Representative Hall, we're on a, we're on a, we were on a Zoom call with some law enforcement folks, and the question was, it was a very similar question. And the concern was, is it, is it bad if it goes to the black market? And, and the answer is it will, but it it'll be a small amount. And the law enforcement folks that we worked with, they felt like pushing it to the black market where it's a narrow, narrow market where you can't target kids the same way is much better than making it readily available in gas stations. It it's gonna happen. It's gonna happen like every, every other addictive drug, it'll happen. But we'll go from a big, a big targeted campaign and, and, and create 'em to a very small amount.

Okay. So my name is Austin Gardner. I am a senior at Crimson Cliffs High School in St. George. Um, this is Anna Huntington. She's also a senior from Crimson Cliffs. And this is Emma and she goes to Success Academy also down in St. George. Um, we represent the Washington County Youth Coalition, um, which is a coalition designed to, um, prevent substance abuse amongst youth in our county. Um, we'd like to have a few words about this bill. Um, we, uh, a lot of the medical and social aspects of this bill have been covered by, um, people previous to us, but, um, we'd just like to say that, um, the youth in our community, uh, do not want creto. We do not. It, it is negative. It does not help us and it is easily accessible. We, one of the kids in our coalition, he works with our local police and he goes into gas stations to try and buy illegal or substances as a minor. And K*m is one of those and he has a pretty good success rate. So it is accessible to minors it, and it's not the fault of the minor, but it's the fault of the gas stations. So, um, we do not want it. And, uh, that it, when considering this bill, please consider the future of our state's youth. And that's all we have to say. Thank

Yeah, I'm just curious, I mean, tobacco is addictive and it's harmful. Should we ban that as well?

Um, tobacco is considerably more regulated. Uh, that

Was my question. Should we ban it?

Uh, We should not ban it. What's the difference? The difference is tobacco has a lot more research and it has a lot more effects and there are already multiple prevention things going about. Tobacco cred has not had as much of, um, a widespread research and it has, um, considerably from what I've heard, more negative effects on the brain. The developing brain. Both of them are bad, but raum con considerably worsens the, um, developing brain in minors.

Alright. Thank you Mr. Chair.

Senator Ipson, I just want to commend you and you, I think you answered an cross-examined attorney very well, and I just commend you for having the courage to come up here and stand before this committee and make your presentation. You made it to me earlier personally, and I am, I just commend you for having the courage and the forethought and you presented yourself very well. Thank you for being

Here. Thank you. I I, I'd like to add a little more to the tobacco thing real quick. Are you, am I allowed to do that? I have, I have another, What's this, what's this called in a court case? Is it re re rebuttal? A rebuttal, yeah. All right. Um, I, I'd also like to say that there are more addiction recovery programs in place for tobacco. Um, but with Krato it's, um, from sources I've heard it's significantly harder to regulate, significantly harder to get off of. Um, and of course it's new so people dunno how to deal with it as well as tobacco.

Yes. I'm gonna stay outta the way, but again, just a couple people that I referenced. I know Walt Plum, Dean Francis here, they want to testify from the public. And I know there's mothers and others, but we can't be here all day and I recognize that.

My name is Amber Jones. I'm here today to expose the dangers of Creative Monas, the Senate Committees members to seriously consider and ultimately create legislation that will regulate the labeling, categorizing and accessibility of Kratom. I acknowledge and emphasize the things that have been stated about the Food and Drug Administration, the Drug Enforcement Agency, and also the National Institute of Drug Abuse and the opioid and stimulant like effects. But I'm not here to share the technicalities or expand on the scientific nature of Kratom. Rather, I am here to share the personal devastating effects Kratom has on families, more specifically my family. Um, three years ago, I didn't even know this substance existed. I had felt a change in the mood and tone of our home. There were the normal family struggles, but there was also this new and delicate balance of anger and fear. The first pains were felt by my young son and his mental health as his mental health fragmented. One day while I was out, I got a phone call from a stranger who was just found, who had just found my 9-year-old wandering cold, and crying. He had run away from home in fear, a short time later on, an equally difficult day. He tried to jump from our moving car while on the freeway what eventually came to the

Mr. Chairman, members of the committee. My name's Matt Salmon. I previously served as an Arizona State Senator and, uh, as a member of the United States Congress for 10 years from Arizona. Uh, incidentally, I was born here in Salt Lake City and, uh, my master's degree is from Brigham Young University. Um, I am now, now the chairman of the American Creative Association. There is so much information Mr. Chairman, I'd like to present. I, I'm not sure I can do it in in one minute. There's a lot of things that have been said, uh, and I'd like to,

Well, uh, the AKA has worked with, uh, American Creative Association has worked with legislatures across the country to promote responsible legislation through creative Consumer Protection Acts, which Utah was the very first state to pass these laws establish age limits product labeling, re requirements, manufacturing standards, and alkaloid restrictions designed to protect consumers while preserving access to lawful products. My testimony today is focused on ensuring that policy decisions before this committee are grounded in accurate science, current federal policy, and clear regulatory distinctions. Let me briefly address three key key issues that are central to this discussion. First, there's been confusion surrounding the FDA's Human Dose finding study on natural crem leaf products. That study concluded that crem was well tolerated at all dose levels. In fact, the worst thing that happened, there was no overdose, no respiratory issues. The worst thing that happened was two of the respondents got nauseated. It's important for the record to be clear, this study was funded entirely by the US Food and Drug Administration, not by industry. The results are therefore independent and should be evaluated on their scientific merits. Secondly, there's been a suggestion that the vast majority of Kratom research should be discounted because it's largely industry funding that claim is not accurate. There are hundreds of peer reviewed, published kram research articles that have been supported by more than a hundred million dollars in federal grants from the National Institute of Drug Abuse N Erda. This research based base represents one of the most robust federally funded scientific researches, uh, records for any product. Currently, under discussion, industry funded kratom research can be counted on one hand, relatedly public references have been made to independent institutional research on Kratom that upon review does not exist. While respected medical institutions have summarized or cited some now outdated FDA materials, they've not conducted independent CRE research themselves, including the Mayo Clinic. This distinction matters when evaluating claims of scientific consensus. Third, it's Es essential to distinguish between natural crate leaf products and chemically manipulated or synthesized substances such as seven oh, which we do agree is a very dangerous substance. These substances are not the same pharmacologically, chemically, or legally. This committee voted on the right solution last week in scheduling seven oh h and providing more resources to the Department of Agriculture to enforce the current KCPA natural Crate Leafs. Do not meet the federal criteria for scheduling under the Controlled Substances Act. If

Thank you. Well, let me just say in summary, I do have, um, a report that I would like to submit for the record and I'll, I'm not sure what that process entails, but I'd, I'd like to, uh, leave that for the record. You

I appreciate the opportunity. Um, I know that, uh, one of the things that came up during COVID, I hated COVID and I hated a lot of the policies that came out during COVID. One of the great things was the statement, follow the science. 'cause I think that makes sense and I'm hoping this committee will do that.

Okay. Alright. Thank you. Uh, Mr. Chairman and Committee. Um, my name is Lance Crump and I'm from Eagle Mountain, Utah. And I'm 52 years old and I'm, I'm a, I bet you'd think I you'd say I'm a recovering addict, but I'm not. I'm a widower. 'cause I lost my wife to this product. And, uh, in the beginning she was just looking for something to heal her. Her pain, her physical pain, her nerves, calmer nerves. She started about five years ago, and we found this product and into the credit of what it's been doing, it's, it really was a miracle drug. Um, but she didn't know. I didn't know. And because of this, I don't think it's, I don't think anybody knows, we would, we would consult with physicians time after time, and most of 'em wouldn't say they don't, they've never heard of it or they couldn't make an opinion on it because they didn't know have enough research. And so it, it ended tragedy in a tragedy for my family where I'm, you know, now having to raise, uh, two kids. I have a 17-year-old and a 23-year-old. Now, if she were here, she would vote for it, but she didn't know and we didn't know. And when you leave it up to the public to self-regulate, it's no good.

My name is Laura Romney. I'm from Layton, Utah, and I am a nine year crad consumer. I have a severe facial nerve disease called trigeminal neuralgia where I went through a myriad of things, um, to try to solve this and just get my life back. And I finally found that in Kratom nine years ago. So I'm a success story. I have incredible, um, help. I, I'm able to participate in life. I am able to take care of my family and my kids all because of this. The greatest thing about it is it makes me feel more normal and not altered in any way. Today, I feel like my life is on trial because if this were to ban, I literally will not be able to get out of bed. I spent six years rocking in bed in severe pain, and to see that this could be taken away from me is just devastating. There are ways crazy PA is the way to go, and there is regulation. I wholeheartedly support banning 7 0 8. It is very, very dangerous. But please do not abandon pain patients again, when they've been taken, all their options have been taken away. Um, like, like pain medicine. Thank you.

Thank you for coming. My name is Walter Plum. I'm the president of Drug Safe Utah. And I I purchased a bunch of products from stores, uh, to show you what's going on. Uh, this particular product, the Creighton Company, what it advertises on the back, energy relief, focus, mood and quality. This particular product, I guess this isn't Kit

I don't know if you're gonna be catching you, your Honor, I'm, I'm gonna sit down as soon as I put this down. This is what's sold. This is for kid approval. Kid kid attraction. I'd like to just say briefly, my own daughter had cardiovascular problems. She had ended up having a stroke. She was on regular Kratom, not 7 0 8. And I'm here usually to speak on, and I'm here today to speak on the teen perspective. Developing brains of adolescents are more susceptible to addiction. Let's not have this in our state.

Hi, my name is Michael White. Um, I was hit by a car in 2013 and developed a complex chronic bone infection, which I currently am still going through treatment, uh, 12 years later. Uh, I've been taking crem leaf crem for about 10 years now as a supplement to my pain control, uh, regimen. And, you know, in addition to other things like vitamin C and zinc and, uh, I, I firmly believe that Kratom does not fit the classification for Schedule One substance. It's just the science shows that it, uh, there are risks to it, but it is, um, simply not dangerous enough to be Schedule one. It's possible it could fit into Schedule two through five somewhere, uh, that's complicated by the fact that it is an herbal supplement, of course. Um, but I just wanted to speak out that criminalizing hurts businesses and citizens. Um, we currently have a functional Freedom Protection Consumer Protection Act. I believe that should be, um, Uh, Further, um, sorry. I believe that should be expanded and possibly even, um, we could have a situation where Kratom may be available in a dispensary system, uh, similar to how medical cannabis is. And that way we would Have a doctor's thank you for coming approval.

I'm Senator Vickers. My name is Amy Cooper and I'm here as a mother. Um, my son is a good kid with a normal promi, enormous promise. He returned home from a church mission and was playing collegiate volleyball here in the state and was building his future during a tournament. He and a friend stopped by a gas station and they came across a product similar to this. Um, it was marketed as natural calming energy and a, and a shot form like this. Um, it was something to help focus it, it looked like a harmless wellness drink. He didn't need to show id, so he assumed it was safe, and he recognized that it had kava, but he didn't know what Raum was. It was labeled herbal and sold next to energy drinks. And it seemed like no big deal, especially here in Utah. That single purchase turned into dependence, which turned into addiction. Over time. The substance changed how he thought and functioned. He lost his job, dropped out of school, and moved out of state. Thankfully, he's one of the lucky ones who's now 35 days clean, working with professionals to get his life back. But I lost my son for a year. It's not a harmless substance, it's a mind altering addictive substance being sold only openly in gas stations without age restrictions.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak. My name is Matt, and I'm a Utah resident. I'm here today because Krato has been essential to my health and stability. I'm concerned about the unintended consequences of Senate Bill 45. Uh, you know, I want to be upfront that, uh, I am a recovering addict. Earlier, uh, in my life, I was addicted to benzodiazepines, cocaine, and Oxycontin. I got clean in 2009 and, uh, protecting that recovery is of the utmost importance to me in 2013. So three and a half years later, I began experiencing severe anxiety and panic attacks to the point where I couldn't, I, it, it was, I was debilitated. I couldn't go to work. And, uh, I had a, a physician recommend that I go on benzodiazepines. And given my history, I knew that that was not a safe option for me. So, uh, while looking for alternatives, I found natural crem leaf. It gave me the ability to function in life again. And, uh, you, I I don't say this casually, it quite literally saved my life. I was considering going back to, to the, the temptation to go back to all the street drugs was, was so powerful when you can't even function as an adult without having a panic attack. So for 13 years I've used KRA responsibly. My dose has remained the exact same. I don't escalate. I think that's probably why I don't have any of the major side effects that people report. And I live a productive law abiding life. So I want to be clear, I support Senate Bill 48, that bans seven oh hydroxy ine. And my concern with Senate Bill 45 is that it, it fails to clearly distinguish between those synthetic products. And I looked it up because I was not aware that, uh, ine metabolizes into 7 0 8 in the body. And according to chat, GPT 0.01%, I need you

Gail Ika with Utah Eagle Forum. Um, I'm not an expert. I've done a lot of studying on this. I've listened to the experts today. I find it astounding, that expert. You know, you've got all the doctors in, you know, the association here and all the people that we've heard from today, from the poison control, from as all the things that I read about. I studied about things, we began to hear from people. And I can tell you that, uh, as I've spoken out about this in many places, I hear more and more from people, it's not good. Why are we even, why would we even allow it to continue to be sold and, and risk somebody's life addiction? Uh, it's, it's unbelievable to me that we, it, it, it isn't banned. And I hope that you will vote for this bill, and I hope you will ban this. And I just want to quickly say, uh, in, in listening to Mr. Plump's story, he didn't get to finish, but his daughter was only on a, something as innocent as tea, drinking tea. And she had a, a major stroke. And it's, it is completely changed her life all because this, this stuff was so easy to acquire.

Hi, my name is Stephanie Vandyke. I come here today as a mom. I come here today as a recovering opiate addict. I was addicted to pain pills for 15 years. Pain pills, opiates, completely. You

Um, opiates completely and entirely ruined my life. I was able to destroy my life over and over and over again in 15 years just because of opiates. I did find recovery 11 years ago in my first year of recovery was really, really hard. I had multiple relapses, struggled and struggled. I ended up finding Kratom and I have been clean and sober since then. It doesn't make me high. It doesn't make me wanna go out and get more. Most importantly, it doesn't, Manti doesn't make me feel like I wanna go out and rob a pharmacy to get more. I just wanna stick with some facts here and just say, in 2024, 7 million people died from tobacco. 3 million people died from alcohol. And in 2024, only 300 people died from Kratom. I'm saying, and I feel that it has saved my life and it has saved so many other lives. To straight out ban plain leaf powder would be a death sentence in my life.

Hi. Uh, my name is Corey. I was an alcoholic for eight years until I found Kratom. Uh, it, within the first dose completely took away my desire to drink. And I haven't had a single drink with one exception in the last nine years that I've been taking K*m every single day. It literally saved my life. I have two nieces that are emotionally dependent on me to be there because their father is currently handicapped by alcohol. And if this is taken away from me, I fear that I might fall back into that same trap. Um, I want you all to think about what the alternatives are. If you take away the leaf, I don't care about the process stuff. Do whatever you want. But if you take away the pure leaf that God gave us that can literally dry in the sun and that you can consume, you'll be forcing people to go buy stuff on the street from illegal drug dealers. Mm-hmm. That is the truth. And that's, people are, are in pain. They're gonna do whatever they can to get away from that paint. We all clearly care about this very much. We all care about each other. And I just hope you make a reasonable decision for this.

Okay. Go ahead. I'm gonna do even better than that. I'll just do a bullet point if that's okay. I had a whole stack of cards I was gonna read, but real quick. I was, I'm 63 in 2008, I Uintah the state fair and injured my back Severely, severely had, um, three surgeries, all that failed. I now walk with a walker. Um, oh,

Started. Oh, I'm sorry. Robin. Robin Bole. Okay. Thank you. I apologize. I I wanted to be quick and efficient anyway. Um, so yeah, I got, I went down the road of opioids. I was dependent on 'em for 10 years. I got myself on off of them on my own. Detoxed at home. Took over six weeks to get clean. I then, because of my family being concerned about my opioid use, and yes, they had a right to be. Um, I white knuckled it for six years, occasionally when the pain got so bad, I drank alcohol. I heard a couple things here today. I'm gonna skip the rest of my story. I heard a couple, couple things here today that I wanna be clear on. 7 0 8 and pure kratom are two different things. Remember that and don't just hear that. Uh oh. If you take purely Kratom, uh, it's gonna turn into 7 0 8 and then reference a YouTube video. Ridiculous. Um, go to the AKA, I think Dr. Forsyth was referencing a YouTube video. Go to the AKA, the American Credit as, uh, American Credit Cred Association. Go to the science. That's what they're there. The doctors and the scientists behind Kre. It's different than 7 0 8. Thanks.

Hi, my name is Elizabeth Alstrom. And, um, I have lived a life with chronic pain. The only reason that I am here to be able to have a voice for myself is because I found CRE eight years ago. Um, I have a non diagnosis, which is fibromyalgia. Every single muscle in my body hurts all the time. And when you live with chronic pain, there's nothing to stop that signal. And it just gets worse and worse and worse. And people who don't live with it don't understand what that's like. I spent 20 months begging God every night to let me die because the pain was just unbearable. And then I found Raum and it has completely given me my life back. I, um, was able to get off welfare. I work full-time. I support myself because of my life of chronic illness. I'm single support myself. I was able to buy a house. Um, with it. I was able to hike Mount Kelman Gerald last year, and without it, I can't even get out of bed. So, plain leaf and also as like a money burden, $20 a month is how much it costs for me to live.

Ahead. I'm Margie Berger. My story's a little different because I had two knee surgeries and I had a stroke in between those two knee surgeries. And I have to take statin my whole life. They will never take me off of it. If all of you know, statin is legal, I have to take it. I can't go off of it. Statin messes with my muscles. I wake up every morning, I can hardly walk. It takes everything of my power to walk. And when I go and take it within 15 minutes, my body can walk. I can function in life and I am grateful for it. And that's all I need to have to say.

Uh, as your pharmacist, I'd recommend you take coq 10 and fish oil.

Go ahead. Uh, yeah, I can begin here. My name is Chad Potts. I am from Salt Lake City, Utah. Uh, I'll start off that. I was a severe alcoholic. I tried kratom kind of just to have a replacement. Didn't know that it would help me, and it completely eliminated my desire to drink. I'm now very boring. I don't like to go out. Uh, I've actually quit re now and I've had nothing. But, uh, you know, it was much easier than quitting coffee. I can say that they've given me prescriptions, uh, for antidepressants, for gut problems that actually have black box warning that will kill me, that will gimme seizures. And yet, uh, you know, I hear these fear factors on re and I've had nothing but, uh, good things to say for it. And it's literally has saved my life. And I will say that and, uh, leave it that. Thank you. Thanks

Yes, sir. Thank you. Um, thank you for allowing me to speak. My name is Susan Cave and I'm from Florida. Um, I'm, I'm listening to all this and I'm hearing, uh, people talk about their pain, how it's improved their pain. They're no longer having to, you know, look at street drugs. But I can tell you that my son, 32 years old, died a little less than two years ago from raw raham. And my life has been totally changed. I completely support Senator Al's. Bill. Um, I want you to think about some things as you're trying to make this hard decision about Kratom. Uh, you need to know that bad actors are gonna always enter this market if it's regulated and left on the shelves, uh, with age restrictions. And label restrictions are always gonna be bad actors to look into a market and exploit a product. And that's, that's exactly what will happen with Kratom if you leave it regulated. Um, right now on social media, you can find links and websites with people giving step-by-step instructions on how to make 7 0 8 from raw kratom no re regulation, no matter how strongly written cannot stop, the industry's manipulation of alkaloids cannot stop. Thank you. Susan.

Well, let, can I ask one more question? How do you think people can be responsible crate consumers? If so little is known about how to safely cons consume krato, there's no legal dose established how it interacts with other drugs, a person may be taking what the long term consequences

Hello. Can you hear me? Yes, go ahead. Thank you for allowing me to speak. My name is Dan Gibbs. On, on December 6th, 2023. My 25-year-old son.

I'm in Ohio. I'm an Ohio resident. Wow. Al Austin did not die from fentanyl, heroin, or prescription opioids. He died from cranham toxicity. This is the official finding of the Montgomery County Ohio coroner. The, the cause of death was intoxication by my tra genine RA's primary alkaloid. My tra genine only his autopsy showed pulmonary edema and findings consistent with opioid type respiratory depression. My son died because KRA was legal, normalized and sold as safe. You've heard opposition from industry groups like the American Freedom Association, global Freedom Coalition, claiming Regulation works, and pointing to a so-called FDA study. That claim is misleading. There is no FDA approval, no safety determination, no accepted medical use. I also wanna address a concern raised by members of this body about a potential black market with, with respect. We already have an unregulated market. Kre is sold in smoke shops with no dosing standards, no medical oversight, and wildly inconsistent potency. Keeping it legal has no prevented harm. It has legalized it.

Uh, my name is Tia. I'm from Boise, Idaho, and I'm here to support the Senate Bill 45. My perspective comes from a loss. No parish should ever experience. My daughter Kylie, um, died March 1st, 2025 of my dry Juab overdose. She was only 23. Because she was so young, they had to do investigation after autopsy and to screen was performed. My dry genine overdose was determined to be the factor. Death cred took my daughter's life. She trusted the word natural. Kylie used natural CRE powder. She believed it was safe to use because this is how the industry markets it. She was not using extracts or seven oh h the leaf itself killed her. My dine and seven oh h both bind to the same opioid receptors as morphine. I did that. Natural powders harmless. While only certain extracts are dangerous, is not supported by what is happening in real families. Both farms are taking lives. The industry is already developing new derivatives like MGM 15 and 16. A full ban is the only approach to close loopholes and keep opioid acting substances outta your community. I know bands are not an easy decision, but I also know, uh, what it feels like to stand in my daughter's empty room and wonder how something sold is natural, um, killed her. I'm asking you to support this band, so no other family has to learn through the lives of a loved one. Thank you for your time.

Hi. Can you hear me? Yes. Hi, my name is Amanda Rainer. I live in Nashville, New Hampshire. Um, I'm calling in because calling to let you know, I was on pain medication at the early age of nine. I live with 10 out of 20 of the most painful conditions to live with trigeminal neuralgia being one of those that's also known as the suicide disease. I was basically told by my doctor, there's nothing more we can do with you. They've exhausted all options because pharmaceuticals just are not working for me. And that does happen. Almost nine years ago, I found Kratom. I've been able to get out of bed. I've been able to get my life back. Um, I was able to attend my son's graduation, which I would not have been able to do. Simple things. Being able to get outta bed after living as a disabled woman for the majority of my life has not been fun. So I'm asking you to please follow the science. Do not ban any of all of these alkaloids. Putting a ban on it stops all studies on it, and that does no good for anybody. We need regulation, and that is key. People need to be accountable for anything and everything they do. Alcohol is legal, cigarettes are legal. Freedom needs to be kept legal. Thank you for your time.

Hi. Can you guys hear me okay? I can, uh, can you turn your camera on? Yeah. It, It shows it's on on My end. Oh, there we go. Yeah. I'm sorry.

My name is Misty Brown and I represent myself. I am from Colorado. I would like to say that, um, I would like to disclose some conflicts of interest going on here, including Senator Mikel, who is trying to represent a client from Crem and some anti crem people that are on this call also, or involved in lawsuits. Um, here's my testimony. From 2008 to 2019, I was prescribed FDA approved pain pills, benzos, and muscle relaxers for degenerative disc disease over 11 years. That began as pain management slowly turned into dependency and addiction. In April of 2019, I was dismissed from pain management after failing and required pill count, I was 11 pills short off pro from prescriptions. I turned to the streets in desperation and briefly fell into cocaine use while searching for another doctor. In June of 2019, during cocaine withdrawal, I watched the documentary, a Leaf of Faith. The very next day I began using regulated whole leaf kratom, not synthetic. Seven oh HI purchased it legally and it was secured in a locked case. And I was carted, raum quieted the cravings that had controlled my life for over a decade. It gave me stability, clarity, and the ability to address the root causes of my issue.

Hello. Can you guys see me? Yes,

All right. Awesome. Sorry, just gimme one second. Okay. Good evening. My name is Dylan. Um, I'm a father, a chronic illness sufferer, and an advocate for natural health. Where

I I live in, um, Kingston, New Hampshire. Okay. Before discovering whole Leaf Kratom, I lived with severe physical and psychiatric disabilities. In 2018, I was diagnosed with neurobras, an infection from the bacteria that causes Lyme disease that affects the brain and nervous system For over a decade, I suffered chronic pain, fatigue, anxiety, depression, insomnia, and digestive distress. I was hospitalized for over a month, placed on disability and unable to work for many years. I'm also in long-term recovery from alcohol and prescrip.

Hi, my name is Sheldon Bradshaw. I'm testifying on behalf of, of Botanicals for Better Health and Wellness and opposition to Senate Bill 45. Where do live

I currently live in Virginia, but I spent, uh, many years in Utah. I was a, I'm a graduate of Brigham and University and worked for many years at Geneva Steel and, uh, outside Provo. Uh, I am an FDA regulatory attorney and previously served as the Chief Counsel of the United States Food and Drug Administration, and as a Deputy Assistant Attorney General at the US Department of Justice. And I wanted to speak in opposition to the bill and raise just several quick points. First, the FDA has already gone down this road. And considering the question of scheduling Kratom, it came to the conclusion that Kratom does not constitute a warrant being scheduled under the eight factor analysis to schedule, uh, a product. Uh, instead, in July, the FDA and the HHS held a press conference and announced that they were going to ask the DEA to schedule seven hydroxy mitro gyne, it made it very clear and, uh, was a pains denote in both the press conference, which I attended, and in a press release that its focus was not on natural freedom because it did not warrant being scheduled. And in addition, every time the FDA commissioners talked on the subject, he specifically reminds people that products containing 7 0 8, uh, bear no resemblance to the botanical kratom that people have consumed for centuries.

Uh, an opposition to the bill. Okay. Thank you. It Should not, should not be scheduled.

Hi. Yes. My name is Jennifer Gillis. I'm from Tennessee. 20 years ago, I was diagnosed with transverse myelitis and became a lifelong chronic pain patient After losing access to prescription medications. Through no fault of my own, I spent years struggling to manage chronic pain until I discovered Holy Cradle powder. It truly gave me my life back. My story is not unique, and Cradle has been a lifeline for so many people like me who just wanna live a meaningful life. It provides pain relief without the mental impairment associated with traditional opioids. Comparing cred to opioids ignores both the science and the real experiences of responsible consumers. Please don't take away a tool that gives people like me a chance to live a better life regulate, age restrict, and most importantly, enforce it.

Hello, chair and members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to speak. My name is Dr. Heidi Kora, a doctor of nursing practice with decades of clinical and leadership experience. Um, I volunteer as a Chief Scientific Dr. Sra. Um, I, I actually, um, work for the, um, international Plant and Herbal Alliance based in Salt Lake City. Okay. Um, I volunteer as their Chief Scientific Officer. And, um, I actually live in Illinois and Wisconsin. Thank you. Mm-hmm. I have no financial ties to Kratom. My goal is simply to support an informed practical public health decisions. Safety concerns are understandable, but the risk, as already mentioned, is adulterated and unregulated synthetic products. Um, there are hundreds of peer review studies that now describe ca kratom's chemistry pharmacology public health impacts. Natural kratom leaf does not activate the biological pathway responsible for dangerous opioid type respiratory depression. This is lifesaving for millions, uh, or, um, I should say thousands of people that use it for as a harm reduction tool. National surveys show that most adults who use natural kratom leave do so for chronic pain, and the majority do not have any history of, uh, of addiction. At the same time, many adults in recovery also live with chronic pain.

Particip. I would like to point out that, um, that the, uh, proponents of this bill had their scientific, um, experts, and yet the proponents or the opposition of the bill had no scientific experts that were able to testify. Thank you.

Hi. You can see me? Yes. Go ahead. Okay, great. Thank you. My name is Jen. I'm from Kingston, New Hampshire. Um, I, I think it's important to be clear about who con uh, creative consumers actually are. Not all creative users come from the addiction world. Many of us come from chronic pain wellness and traditional herbal communities who use plant-based tools responsibly. I lost my father to alcohol. I understand real harm, uh, and also pharmaceuticals and other substances, but that experience also makes something very clear to me. I do not have the right to control the choices of other consenting adults, especially based on weak or misrepresented evidence. Um, I'm currently not using kram yay me. It means I'm not in pain. I, it's one of those things that I can take it when I need it and not when I don't. For every person you believe you may be saving through prohibition, you'll be criminalizing and destabilizing the lives of hundreds, if not thousands of responsible adults. Adverse event reports generate signals. They do not prove causation. Policy should be proportional, evidence-based and focused on standards and transparency, not fear. You are a leader in that. And I'm, I'm, uh, completely disheartened that this is even on the table. There is no high quality clinical evidence showing that kran independently causes liver damage. The reports are often cited or isolated case reports, not controlled studies, and they cannot.

So good. Uh, yeah. I'm Seth Stewart from American Fork, Utah. Utah. Uh, so I have a friend, Utah, who used to work with a, uh, a, a freedom distributor. And, uh, the market for this thing has grown enormously. As was testified previously. There are millions of users in the United States, and at the time it was very much downplayed as far as any safety considerations we're concerned. Um, his, his, his boss would, would say it was totally harmless when he knew that there had already been a fatality of among his own, uh, immediate, uh, contacts there. And, uh, the number has grown very significantly since then. This is something that does need to be studied more. Um, I'm having deja vu from, uh, proposition two and the marijuana regulation here in the state of Utah, which was originally, um, proposed as a as medicinal, uh, but ultimately had all these, uh, back doors for, uh, recreational use. I am firmly in the camp of, uh, the, the recreational use at, at a minimum should be barred because that's introducing problems where there were none. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, I'm just asking if, uh, we're wondering if the good Senator, um, from Utah County could tell us why. Um, Rhode Island banned Kratom and then came back and unbound it a few years later.

I, I can't speak to Rhode Island, but there are seven other states that'll authorize it then banned it like Louisiana, just, just in the last year.

Okay. But don't, don't you think Rhode Island discovered some problems with the ban?

I I have no idea honestly, what they did in Rhode Island. That's not curious

to you. I haven't, I've looked because it's really fascinating to me. I,

I honestly have not looked, I've, I've seen the states that had it legal and seven of 'em have now banned it, including Louisiana. I think Rhode Island was one of the first to band it, and they, they, they, they saw it fit to unban it. So, yeah. I don't know. Good question.

Senator Musselman, I, uh, I'll move that we pass out with a favorable recommendation, SB 45 Creative adjustments.

Um, I was just gonna say, you know, listen to the public comment and testimony. I think there are, you know, potentially some legitimate reasons to have a regulated access, um, to freedom. Um, I'm gonna vote for the bill, but ask the sponsor to look at, you know, medical options and see if there's not a way that we can, you know, learn from Rhode Island's mistakes. So, thank you.

Yeah. I probably won't surprise anybody. I'm not gonna vote against the bill. I have some serious concerns about selling freedom in gas stations. Um, but there are so many substances, um, that we, that are helping some people that we've regulated and we have it banned. I, I don't know why we would single out this one to ban, especially after we just legalized, um, cannabis, um, recently. It's my understanding that Rhode Island brought, uh, brought it back because people were buying crem on the black market. Um, and that they found it was a bigger problem to ban it than it was, uh, to, it was a bigger problem by banning it. And it, it created, uh, more chaos than by, uh, making it, not banned, but, but regulating it. I think what we need is more regulation and less ban. So I'll be voting No.

Thank you. And, and I'm gonna be brief. There was one comment that stood out to me. Um, a lot of the opposition described a drug when they described why they were taking it, and they described a drug. But one of the comments actually stood out to me. It was the chat GPT comment about how the ma that ragy converts to 7 0 8 and 0.01%. Um, I'm gonna read an ingredient from a, this is a preferred vendor on the American Creative Association's webpage. And it says, you've just found our strongest cred shot. Super k extra strong. Every bottle features 1,250 milligrams of a broad spectrum extract. This shot contains a total of 1,250 milligrams of cranium extract with a total of 375 milligrams tragedy. And it's $30 a bottle. And, and when you put that formula together,

You. And I'm gonna invite up, um, Dr. Forsyth and Kelly Pearson from the Department of Ag with me. Go Ahead. Um, And, and lemme just say thank you, thank you to the house we've been working on this, this bill that, that I'm running actually started as a complete ban. And, and while, and while I think that that's probably the best policy, I understand that we work, we work in two bodies at the legislature. We work with the House and the Senate. And I, I appreciate the input I've received from the house. I appreciate the input I've received from some of your colleagues in, in negotiating this bill. I've had a lot opportunity to do that. And I know that your colleagues are sincere in some of their concerns. And one of those concerns was we've, we've got to find a way to be able to purchase pure crem leaf and nothing else. And, and we're gonna talk about what Pure Crem leaf is and what it's not. Um, I know there's gonna be an effort as this bill, you know, I assuming this bill moves forward, I hope it does. There's gonna be an effort to continue to amend this bill and to include extracts. And I want you to pay close attention to what extracts are. Um, we've got Dr. Forsyth here, and he's gonna be able to talk about what extracts are and help you understand why that would be very, very concerning to put that back in the bill if this, if this moves forward. But I do have a, I do have a third substitute. That third substitute came from some of the concerns, not concerns from DPS, but it, it's drafting, it's a drafting issue. And the other thing the third substitute does, it's clear in the language that people who possess the pure K*m leaf don't get prosecuted. So I wanna make sure that we, we move that third substitute at some point. And it also repeals the title Crate and Protection Act. But I'm happy to move forward with her substitute now, or I'll follow your lead, Mr. Chair.

So let me just tell you what the bill does, and then I'll, and then I'll move on to the presentation. We are allowing pure c cred and leaf only to be sold in the state of Utah. Everything else would, would no longer be allowed. They would be sold in tobacco, retail, tobacco specialty stores. Um, we would have provisions that relate to penalties and fees, um, penalties up to $5,000. We bumped the age up to 21. And all of the language that you saw in Senator Vickers dealing with seven Hydroxy, we have included that. Um, I've had a chance to work with Representative Daley Provo, uh, Senator Vickers, and we've been incorporating this language. But, uh, for the presentation today, I wanted to include, um, some folks with me to talk about their experience. Um, I've asked Kelly Pearson to come speak. I I know he has an opportunity to do that from the Department of Ag. And then we'll go to Dr. Forsyth and I do have a few other folks that wanna speak. And I know your time is limited and it's late in the day.

Go ahead, Kelly. Yeah, my name is Kelly Pearson. I'm the Commissioner of Agriculture for the State of Utah. And I can tell you right now that I fully support the ban of Kratom. Kratom is something that keeps me up at night as the regulatory, uh, division that we have to do for K*m. But I'll tell you why. I get asked all the time, well, you oversee hemp and and cannabis. Why doesn't that keep you up at night? Well, they are in a, in a, their science behind those, they have, uh, a controlled area like pharmacies. Raum is what's getting to our kids. Um, it's that gas stations, um, there is no science behind it. Every time the lobbyist firms come to our division, which they've been there 10 to 15 times trying to tell us, you know, KRE is safe, KRE can be mixed with kava. You ask, where is the science? And not one of them can provide it. It's so new. Um, so I appreciate the sponsor and what he's done. Um, the day with, we tried to do some rules to restrict the create kava, the agency was sued for $8.1 million saying that we are, are hurting their industry. So that's what we're dealing with. So I appreciate this Bill. I hope that you will support it. Um, we have one employee right now that over goes around and regulates Raum. So that tells you what we're battling. Um, there's other bills this session that rely, uh, on us getting funding to, to go over and regulate it. But I just want to tell you that that's what keeps me up at night is regulating Kratom because it's new, because there's no science. So, thank you.

Um, before I go to Dr. Forsyth, Mr. Chair, are there, do you have any questions for Mr. Pearson with our Department of Ag? I, I, I'd hate to have him go down 'cause I've got a few other folks that I'm gonna bring up. I've asked everybody to be brief, but I'd hate for him to miss his opportunity. Obviously you can call him back, but

Thank you. So let me introduce Dr. Forsyth. Dr. Forsyth works with our Utah State Lab and he's, he's gonna provide his own testimony, but I also asked him, uh, because I anticipate an effort to, to to claim the extracts are pure crate, I've also asked him to address that issue today. And, and following Dr. Forsyth, I'm gonna invite Megan, um, Meyer up from our drug overdose prevention research and look at the state numbers, see what we're actually learning about Krem in the state of Utah.

I'm Dr. Brandon Forsyth. I'm director of the UDAF laboratory, as well as the specialized products division that regulates Kratom. So today, and probably through the session, you might have heard from Kre advocates who talk about Kratom as though it's a miracle drug that cures chronic pain or opiate and an alcohol addiction. And I do feel for individuals who are using K*M for that purpose, I would hate to take away an effective treatment option from these individuals. Unfortunately, that isn't the whole story about Kratom. I've been directly involved with the regulation of Kratom for a few years now. And the most popular products that we see out in the marketplace are extracts and concentrates. Um, sometimes com compounded with other substances like kava. They're marketed as energy supplements and in some cases as very thinly veiled alternatives to opium. Flat out, these high potency products can contain 300 to 500 milligrams of tine in a single shot, a single dose of this material. And that's compared to about five to 10 milligrams of INE that is typically contained in one of these little half gram capsules that you might see out in the marketplace. That means you're gonna need to take 60 to a hundred of those little capsules to get the same dose of INE that you would get in one of these shots. And crem advocates might argue that this is a benefit because tine is the safe creto alkaloid and they're gonna point the finger at seven hydroxy and synthetic creto alkaloids like pseudo and Doxyl or MGM 15. But our department has already taken action on these products, and they cannot be legally sold in the state of Utah. They, they might be present in the state if people are buying them online, but they're not legal for sale. These products that we hear heartbreaking stories of addiction and death about are concentrates that mostly just contain tine. And there are two big reasons for this. One, our own bodies convert tine to the more addictive and dangerous seven hydroxy tine and pseudo and doxyl. And this is according to peer reviewed studies published in the a CS Pharmacology and Transitional Science Journal just a few years ago. And this work was funded by the NIH. The more a tragedy a product contains, the higher the dose of seven hydroxy and pseudo doil, the user will experience effectively, um, activating their opioid receptors in their body just like heroin or another opiate. Number two, CRE alkaloids are potent inhibitors of major in liver enzymes like CYP 2D six and CYP three A four products contain large amounts of reine compromise. Our liver's ability to metabolize other drugs potentially leading to overdose deaths when taken with otherwise safe doses of drugs like diphenhydramine or as it's more commonly known Benadryl who hasn't taken some Benadryl. I still have concerns with CRE leaf to be clear. I don't necessarily like that it's being told cons to consumers as there's still some potential for harm there. But if that's a compromise that can provide relief to chronic pain users or people seeking relief for from addiction, I think we can manage those risks much better than we can manage the risks from extracts and concentrates. And I'll conclude there. Yes, thank you.

Um, I I do have a question. Were you, so you're saying that the concentrated mitragynine is just, can be, if I understood you correctly, it can be just as bad or addictive as the seven hydroxy matine.

Yes. Because it can be converted by your body into seven hydroxy. Your liver metabolizes it to seven hydroxy and then to pseudo and doxyl, which is even more potent. Got it. Okay. Thank you.

And, and, and he referenced actual research. I have the research here too. This is, this is just Columbia University. It, it's important to point out that the more you know, this safe creto, this safe pure crem that you take your body, I mean, again, I I it's, it's important to emphasize this, your body metabolizes into seven oh h and this, this idea that we're, that the industry is gonna remove the seven oh h on the front end to keep it safe is, is just, it's not accurate. That's not what happens when you take high doses of extracted crate, your body metabolizes seven oh h and that's the exact science. I I just wanna emphasize that Mr. Cherry. That's a, that's a, that's an important point. Um, I know that there's a push to say we're gonna have to take care of seven oh h on the front end. It's horrible. It is horrible. But if you take large quantities of creto, your body is gonna produce it on its own. And that's the important point. Okay.

I, I actually have Megan, um, Megan from DHHS Drug Overdose Prevention Research. Um, Megan has done a lot of research, uh, about deaths in the state of Utah, and I asked her to come and speak to this bill. And after that I've got just one gentleman who's online, Tim Millard, if you can look for him. And he's gonna provide a statement as part of the presentation, and then I'll just wrap up with some comments.

Hi, good afternoon. My name's Megan Brockmeyer. I'm the Drug Overdose Fatality Examiner in the Department of Health and Human Services Office of the Medical Examiner. Um, and as mentioned, I'm here to provide, um, information or epidemiology around kratom involved deaths in our state. So one of the most important pieces of information that our physicians who are especially trained in forensic pathology use in, um, investigating and determining a drug toxicity death is postmortem toxicology. Um, and one of the things that we're looking for when, um, in this toxicology testing is for metabolites or components of creto called INE and seven hydroxy matine. So when I talk about the deaths, we are talking about, um, deaths that have involved those metabolites or components. So in Utah, um, there have been no creto involved deaths prior to 2014, but since that time, we have seen a steady increase in the number of deaths involving kra. Um, we, um, the number of deaths peaked in 2023 at 40 deaths though in 2025 are, are data's, um, still incomplete, but we are still on track to exceed or match the highest number on record, um, for kre involved deaths. Um, so just to stay consistent with, uh, presentations that I've provided in other committees, I just wanna kind of, um, highlight a specific five year period. Um, so between July, 2021 and June, 2025, we saw a 43% increase in the number of deaths across this time period. Um, there was a total of 158 deaths during that five year period. Um, we had the majority of these deaths, excuse me, were ruled as accidental. Um, and then there were fewer deaths, um, that were intentional or suicides, and then also a few deaths where the manner of death was undetermined. Um, so just to look at a few demographics, to give you an idea of who is dying, um, we do see that males account for over two thirds of overdose, of CRE involved overdose deaths, excuse me. Um, that's higher than the neuro than what we see in general drug overdoses. Also, um, people are dying, um, from CRE involved overdoses about four or five years younger than people are dying from, uh, overdoses from another substance. Um, we have seen creative involved overdoses in most areas of the state. Um, some of the highest rates in our area in our state are in the Tri-County Health District, Southwest Health District in Weber Morgan. And then we also have, um, higher rates in Salt Lake and Utah counties. Um, so the majority of overdoses involving Krato, um, also have multiple substances. So on average, there are four drugs involved in a kratom involved overdose. And this just means either, um, that the combination of these drugs caused death. Um, we all have, we also have seen kratom only deaths. Um, while that number is, is lower, we have seen an increase in the number of deaths involving only Kratom. Um, in fact, 50% of Creto only deaths have occurred in 2024 and 2025. Um, and then just for a little bit more information, um, fentanyl is the most common drug that we see alongside, um, Creto. That's it for me. Okay.

Um, my, my last presenter, he should be online, Tim Millard. I'm gonna let him make a statement. Um, Tim, Tim actually sold some, some products that are manufactured in Utah, a product called Feel Free. Hopefully he's online. If not, I'll, I'll wrap up with a statement and then open up for questions.

Can you guys hear me? We can hear you.

Oh, my name's Tim Millard. I currently live in Virginia as a former pratum addict. I wanna say I'm in favor of this bill, and I'd like to testify to two things today. Um, one being my addiction to a very popular Kratom and Kava drink called Feel Free. That's made by Botanic Tonics and two, my sales training while working at Botanic Tonics. This Kratom Kava drink, uh, was originally presented to me in 2023 as a healthy alternative to energy drinks because it was all natural. Um, when I took it, I felt amazing and I felt so good that I decided to apply for a sales job in the, in the company. I quickly found myself increasing from one bottle a day, uh, to four to six. I eventually was dependent and was taking over 20 bottles a day. My, my life rapidly fell apart. So in May of 2025, I reached out for help. I had, I had a doctor who treated me like an opiate addict and prescribed me nine different medications to help with the withdrawals. The withdrawals were an absolute nightmare, just to say the least. Um, I was, it took me 10 days just to be able to get out of bed, and it took me a about a month before I was able to get back to work. But I don't know if I'll ever get back to normal. I struggle with the aftermath of this addiction to this very day. It has affected me and my family in ways I can't describe to you. I worked at Botanic Tonics and Sales for almost two years. When I first started, I had no idea how addictive this was, and also decided to share it with my wife. At some point, she became an addict just like myself. And this product nearly destroyed our lives. There are two things that, that were beaten into my head when I worked in sales for Botanic Tonics. First was that the average customer buys six bottles a day. Keep in mind, they're about $10 a piece. This bottle warns you, you should only take one a day. But everyone knew that once you got people started, they wouldn't stop or couldn't stop and would steadily increase their dose. They encouraged me to give out free samples at every stop. I've made up six bottles per store, and I was visiting 150 stores a month, sometimes multiple visits to that store. The other things they beat into my head to were to emphasize how feel free was much like an all natural alternative to five hour energy. I rarely use the word creto when presenting this product. They were, I was told to present it as a kava forward product. And in my opinion, they know exactly the company knows exactly what they're doing. And I believe the same is true for most other crem companies. I believe it is wrong and people need to know the truth about this stuff. Thank you.

Oh, I'll just wait until,

Thank you. Let me, let me just wrap up by thanking this committee for hearing this bill. We've heard a lot about create this session. I appreciate the work that that has happened with Representative Daley Provo, um, Senator Vickers, um, Representative Bolinder. We, we've met regularly. We've met with the Department of Ag. We've tried to craft a bill that was, that, um, respected those folks that wanna use pure Creto leaf. Um, while, while I started with a ban, while my, my hope is that we would do a full ban, um, that that's where the bill is today with a regulatory structure. I think it's important to point out that in this language, the Department of Ag is going to have those resources to be in those tobacco shops. To make sure this is done appropriately, I just want to end with a statement from United States Navy and United States Marines, um, the Department of Defense, uh, under the Secretary of Defense Band, raum for, for those folks. But this is a statement that came out, um, right before we came into session. And it was a band for our United States Navy and our United States Marines create a Trony seven, seven hydroxy trony use possess poses significant health risks, including seizures, tachycardia, hypo, hypo toxicity, hypertension, and death. Sev, several countries and states have classified kratom as a controlled substance to its high potential for misuse the drug enforcement agency classified kratom as a drug and chemical of concern effective immediately. Sailors and marines are prohibited from eng from engaging in the use possession, distribution and or manufacture of any substance product compound or item containing or derived from creto, including, but not limited to a tragedy and seven hydroxy without. I'm open for questions.

Yeah, thank you Senator for the hard work on this. And we, we've seen a couple of these bills already, so I'm, I'm trying to get my head around. Does the, the, the extract, yeah, it converts. It sounds like it converts your, your body metabolizes it into seven oh h does it do it at the same level of toxicity? Like is it as bad as regular old seven oh HC?

Can I phone a friend and have Dr. Forseth go answer that?

Thank you. Um, it's the same compound. It's exact like the chemical structures. Your body doesn't know the difference between the two.

Okay. So it has the same impact ally. It is the same thing. Correct. Okay. And then I know we've gone back and forth with the different bills on the regulatory structure or in, you know, which product we're gonna regulate and which one we aren't. Juab. Is there precedent with other states in how we're doing it in your bill? Like do other states ban the leaf and, or excuse me, keep the leaf regulated, but ban these other two pieces? I'm just trying to get some context. I guess.

So, so one of the, one of the votes that I regret was in 2019 when we voted for the Creative Protection Act. We passed it here, 34 plus states went and passed it out in the country. Then a bunch of states started to ban it. And it, there is a patchwork of regulation right now. Iowa's trying to ban it. Ohio's trying to ban it. Um, Louisiana just, just did, did a, did a ban. But I, I think ours will be a little, a little bit unique in between where we're really scaled it back. I know the bill in Virginia said, you can't have more than 1% 7 0 8. I think they're missing, I think they're missing the science that Dr. Forsyth just talked about. I think it's important to get, to get those extracts and get that down as much as possible. But it's a, it's a patchwork right now. Um, I, there was a time that states were passing the Crad Protection Act. Now states have seen the damage, the devastation, and they're going backwards on that. And unfortunately, we were kind of ground zero. It kind of started here and I think it needs to stop here.

And the last question, Mr. Vice chair. So you have, does the leaf, you, you regulate the leaf, does it just get regulated at the rts bs? Or where can you like legally sell and distribute the leaf?

Let me pull up the Department of Ag 'cause they're gonna be part of, part of that regulatory structure. So maybe I'm gonna, Kelly, can I ask you to kinda respond to that one?

Yeah, I'll respond to it. Yeah. The intention is to only have it available at our TSPs.

What stops us, what I worry about, we go through the regulated channel, but it somehow ends up in a vape shop and they got a box in the back and, you know, the kids know that they're selling it. How do we enforce it so that it doesn't just get submerged into the black market via the vape shops that aren't the R TSPs.

It's certainly going to be available in the black market. It's available enough in the United States and all over the world that it's gonna be impossible to root out at this point. It's the natural product it comes from. Can you bring your mic a little closer? Oh, thank you. Pardon? It's gonna be out there. And so the most we can do, I think at this point is prevent companies from marketing to individuals who are at most risk of becoming addicted to it. And that means getting it out of common retail places, at least at our TSPs, it's not on brightly colored displays that appeal to children. Um, R TSPs are more used to carding their customers. And so we feel that that's a more appropriate, I agree. It's not an ideal solution. I would still like to see a complete ban, but as I said during my presentation, I do feel for those individuals who use this for, to treat chronic pain and addiction. And that's really the only reason I'm on board with the compromise.

Thank you, Senator, for the hard work.

And let me just say one thing. To your point on the vape shops, I think that's a concern. It's a concern we've shared in the legislature. Um, you've got a, a person here in the house that's not a committee member. Otherwise, I'm sure she would say something, but I, I think the, the representative to, to my left has some really good, um, legislation dealing with that, with that issue that, that I, that I hope that, I think there's a lot of wisdom in passing that and seeing it move forward.

Thank you. My, my question is for the medical examiner, um, Megan, I didn't catch your last name. I apologize. Thank you. Can you, uh, clarify some of that information you shared with us, uh, earlier you said we have a number of, of deaths that we can attribute to Crate 'em alone,

Correct? Yes.

And what does that look like again?

So, um, it's a relatively small number. Um, so it's 9% of all kratom deaths in Utah involve only one drug. Kratom the vast, if I can just say this, the, if we, you know, took out crem, most overdoses involve multiple substances.

Right. So that's not unique to Creto?

No, that's been the case across the board forever.

Um, okay. So make sure I understand. So 9% of all, of all deaths that involve Kratom or CRE alone, what is that out of? Can you gimme a number? Like what does 2025 look like?

So, well, 2020 fives still, um, preliminary, but to date, we've had 41 deaths, which is the highest on Recomme that

Have involved Kratom confirmed Correct. That your office has been able to prove. Correct. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Mm-hmm.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Wow. We, how lucky are we got another creative bill. So, um, you'll have to forgive me. I didn't have an opportunity to read through this whole substitute. I'm not sure when it came on, but could you help me, um, figure out, I know, um, there's a $5,000 fine in here that I see for, for people that are selling it, that aren't supposed to be, who is, um, inspecting or, or going, is this just when like law enforcement reports to, oh, sorry, Mr. Sheriff, I may ask that question. Sorry. Can You speak to that? Yeah.

So, so we're given that regulatory authority to the Department of Ag right now, they have one employee. And, and I think what Mr. Pearson said is, it's been difficult, is I think he's been frustrated. I think it's been six years of frustration. Um, the language of the Creon bill that I have, as well as Senator Vickers does have as well as, as JDP, has some funding attached to it that would help, help provide some additional resources. They, they need resources to do this, but the Department of Ag has the expertise in the space right now and that, that, that handle the regulatory burden.

So, follow up question, if I may. So is, does this bill, is this bill counting on the other Creon bills passing in order to fund the provisions, uh, and, and the mechanisms in this bill?

Yeah, so this bill has taken language from Senator Vickers and, and, and his, his language, kind of the catchall 7 0 8 and, and banning all of those, those additional alkaloids. So we've worked, we're, we've worked together and this is the vehicle that our, our work group chose to move forward.

Okay. Thank you. Thank you.

Yeah. My name's Spencer Hanson. I'm an addiction psychiatrist, and over the last four years in my outpatient clinic have learned a lot about Kratom from people who use it. They come in and ask for help to get off of it. And so after talking to them over the, the last four years, I've learned that it works very similar to fentanyl and heroin. And by and large, most of the treatment choices that we use to get them off raum are with medications that we use for fentanyl use disorder and heroin use disorder. And it's a significant burden on the body and the brain. And it's a pro procedure that lasts quite a few months, if not a few years. My latest case is a mother of five marathon runner, very strong runner, just ran the bus marathon last year. She says this has really kicked her butt, and she came in asking for help to get off the product. I probably just finished with my clinical opinion that with the current products available in Utah, probably about one in 10 individuals are at really high risk of a kratom use disorder. I'll leave it at that.

Gail Zeki with Utah Eagle Forum, Oh, sorry, sorry.

To the therapist? Sorry. Over here. Uh, question for you. I, I'm still learning about this raum, but I've heard stories like you've just said, that it, it creates an addiction and I've heard other stories that it helps cure an addiction. And I'm wondering if you could address that from your professional standpoint.

Yeah, I think, I think there are a number of individuals who are able to move away from other substances with cre and I really applaud and congratulate, you know, their, their ability to do that. But I, I still think there are a, a significant number of individuals who will be crippled and disabled trying to use Creo to get off another substance.

Gail Ika with Utah Eagle Forum. Many of you, and I think all of you received invitations from us, uh, last week to, uh, attend a documentary on, on Kratom. And I just wanted to quickly mention what went on in that documentary. It was not a documentary of propaganda, but it was a documentary of individual stories, stories. Every single story was told by a mother or father, a brother or sister of their family member who became addicted to Kratom thinking that they were taking a, a healthy substance that was gonna help build their muscles and make them feel well better after they've exercised. And each and in each story, their, their family member had died. And I, I always wanted to do a little show and tell today, because I have here just three products. I have lots I could show you that were purchased in the gas stations here in, in Utah. This one's called Donuts Creto Extract, raspberry Jelly, something that would definitely, you know, appeal to children. This one's called, uh, cry cryptic crem Extract. And that is, of course, the capsules that are filled with the Kratom. But this one, this one is called CR A Shot. And, and as we watched that documentary, this was the, the type that most of them had used. One mother said she found her son's nightstand who had, after he passed away full of these little bottles. Each one of these are extract. And this is a pineapple orange Crave shot. Thank you.

Ryan Del with Diversified Botanic. You'll see in front of you a potential lead behind for the members of the house that is supporting, uh, scientific data that will share facts around my testimony. Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, I'll be brief and stick to the facts, to the best of my ability. There's been a large amount of theatrics around this situation, this conversation, and a lot of conjecture. My goal is to cut through that and just present the facts. It has been cited that there's been approximately 160 stated deaths that have creto involved over the past five years that has a 43% increase. What's not been told to you is that the vast majority of those deaths have involved fentanyl, methamphetamines, alcohol, and other drugs. The CDC has conducted their own level of research to show that 92% of creto positive deaths consume multiple other lethal substances. When you correct for that, you're looking to two or three ar arbitrary arbitrable deaths out of 3.4 million people, which is still too many, but a relatively small number. Now, if we consider the global context of this, over the same five year period in conversation, the Krem consumer base in the United States has grown from roughly 2 million consumers to 20 million consumers, a tenfold increase. So if you look as a percentage growth, the industry is growing 10 times quicker than the amount of stated Kratom involved deaths. The facts are not exactly what is being presented. This is not an epidemic. It's actually declining rate in percentage deaths overall. There are more people consuming kratom now than ever before with a lower percentage of them having any adverse effects. You've been told that kratom's a narcotic and is addictive just like an opioid. That isn't exactly true. There's been multiple studies conducted by N Erda, by any number of regulatory bodies that have been governmentally funded to show that in a an eight factor analysis, which is the gold standard for determining the abuse potential of any consumable product, the RAUM does not meet the standard for an eight factor analysis to go through schedule one, two, or three, meaning it's not stated to be harmful. This has been proven multiple times with more than a hundred case studies. And in 2002, 2022, sharing from the frontier for, Uh, Don't wanna misquote it, it's in the packet. I'll just make sure I don't mis misquote. So I know I'm at time, I can continue on. But even if we look at the, the conversation around 7 0 8 and the conversion, I think it's very important to state how this actually works. When, when you consume Kratom full spectrum, all present kratom, at best, you have 30% bioavailability. That 30% bioavailability your body, metabolizes it as it processes through your body. Like everything else, a small percentage. Converses 7 0 8.

Mr. Chairman, I have three pictorial exhibits in the room. Can can you bring that, that closer to you? Uh, Mr. Chairman, I have three pictorial, uh, exhibits that I have with me, and I just wanted to know if I had permission to Same Walter Plum from Drug Safe Utah.

So My, uh, CRE not only is addictive, but it affects other organs in the body, including the kidney, the liver, and the circulatory system.

I have a daughter, my oldest daughter, about 54 years old, four years ago, three and a three, actually three and a half years ago, was told to use this as an energy booster. And she started in a tfor. It wasn't an extract, it was reine. She, um, had preexisting high blood pressure, her blood pressure, Uintah 180. I took her to the University of Utah Hospital. We met with the, uh, physician and in the process of their interview, they asked her, are you using k*m? She said, yes. She was using creto. She was unable to stop it. It resulted in a stroke in about four months of rehab at the, uh, university of Utah Hospital Center. This is dangerous if you go into a gas station. It's marketed as just like five hour energy with no warnings about addiction or any of these other issues. This bill should be supported, extract should not be allowed in the state of Utah. Thank you.

Thank you. Um, appreciate that. Uh, that was your name, Ryan as well. Okay. Yes. Uh, can you tell me, I got a couple questions actually, Mr. Chair. Um, first one though, just you just tell us a little bit about your testing, what kind of a testing process you're going through.

Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. So we believe that the product should be tested not only when it arrives in our facility in Draper, Utah, where we have roughly a hundred full-time employees have been in business for 14 plus years and have generated in between 85 and 90 million in annualized revenue to, to add to the tax base in Utah. So we, we test rigorously when products land in our facility, we test for not only third party contaminants, but also for the proper alkaloid profile that should be in naturally occurring kratom. Those products are quarantined and not able to be moved through our facility until the testing comes back from a validated third party confirming the fact that there's no contaminants, no solvents, no lead, nothing that could be harmful to a human being. Plus that it makes the, the standard, um, alkaloid profile that should be found in naturally current creto. As the product then moves through our production facility, when we pick it off the shelf to begin to turn it into a consumable good. When we blend products together, we retest them to confirm the fact that there's been no potential adulterant added to the process, because we do make both extracts and powder and capsule based products during that process. Once that testing comes back as validated with no contaminants, no adulterants, then we go through our production process where we take inline retains at five bottles per hour, every hour we're producing to confirm the fact that nothing's inter interacted with the product during that process. We're still not done with our testing protocol yet because it's required that we then retain not only those for intra production testing, but also finished good testing that has lock codes that are validated end to end. So that product doesn't leave our facility until the final testing comes back from a third party yet, once again, for alkaloid profile, contaminants, anything that could be harmful to a human being.

So the testing primarily is focused on, um, really what you're producing, I guess, here in Utah? That's correct. Where your Draper at. Okay. So it's, it's focused on that, but then it's also included, you said third party testing. Can you tell me a little bit about what that is? Who, who's the third party?

Yeah, so we have used multiple different third party arbiters before. We currently are using, uh, a combination of a RL as a third party testing facility, as well as Cambria analytics. Those take, um, two to three days in transit to get product to those individuals, their FDA, uh, registered third party testing facilities for any type of consumable consumable good. So they're running their own analysis on not only what's in the product, but also the alkaloid profiles and anything that could have entered into the product during production. So then that takes roughly 14 days between shipping the product to them, their seven day process, because it takes time for it to cure then for them to give us back the results for us to take it off of quarantine hold and to make it available for retail sale. Okay. I think where the real issue becomes is not having a standard serving size across the board. If you want to take a concentrated extra strength Tylenol, I don't think that extra strength Tylenol would necessarily be bad, but it should have its own serving size associated with it. We believe inside a diversified botanics, there should be a standard serving size across the industry to allow a consumer to say, do I want to take 10 grams of leaf material or do I wanna take two droppers of an extract product? As long as the alkaloid profile would be consistent, I would make the argument that extract is a more consistent and predictable experience than leaf leaf material.

Are you familiar with, uh, super K extract strong? I am. Um, what is the standard recommended whatever amount that a person should take of that?

Yes, absolutely. So Super K extra strong is our largest, um, concentrated product by volume, right? So it's a 30 milliliter bottle that we produce. All of our product comes out of our facility. It has metered servings, so droppers that are associated with it and has standard serving sizes of 25 milligrams of mitragynine no matter what product leaves. So inside Super K extra strong, a serving size we recommend is 25 milligrams and 25 milligrams on Super. Kay. Extra strong, if I recall, might be two droppers worth.

Okay. So would it surprise you to know that that looks an awful lot like a, uh, 24 hour energy shot and people might be drinking the whole bottle all at once?

Well, I, I would, I would leave that up to interpretation. Our super Kay extra strong product is sold behind the counter, very clearly is in a box that says 21 and over is a purple based product is in a glass bottle and has a dropper on the top. So I don't know that someone would naturally confuse that with five hour energy. That's a small bottle, that's plastic that's sold in front of the counter. If someone does, I wouldn't know exactly how to help solve that because we very clearly put 21 and over on every product. Yeah. And, and clearly have warnings of not to consume more than 150 milligrams of sad consumption in a 24 hour period.

Okay. So, so you think it's not safe to take more than 150 milligrams in a 24 hour period?

I think we would have to determine what safe ultimately means. And I, I'll refer to the single sending dose study that the FDA conducted on Creem itself. During the single sending dose study that the FDA conducted, which came to the marketplace in late 23, they did a single sending dose study up to 12 grams of consumption of Kratom in 12 grams of consumption of kratom. With a 1.25% mitragynine content per volume, you end up with about 150 milligrams of mitragynine in your, your body in one serving size. So what we've taken is a stance of saying if the FDA saw no adverse effects whatsoever in 12 grams of consumption, that would stand within reason, that if someone consumed that much in one day of extract product, they would also see no adverse effects. So, to stay safe versus, uh, an established metric for, uh, lack of harm as it pertains to the fda, a single sending dose study, it makes sense to us that 150 milligrams of consumption should be the max recommended in a day.

Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank, thank you.

Hi, my name is Matt ac. I represent a manufacturing company based out of Lindon, Utah, and we manufacture products that contain Kratom in it. Um, my, my testimony here today is pretty simple. I am in support of this bill to an extent that we are allowed to continue manufacturing the products that we manufacture as the way that the bill is currently stated. We will not be able to manufacture the products that we, that we produce today. Uh, we represent about a hundred employees, and we also represent nearly a hundred million dollars. Um, Creto represents about 40% of our business base. And if we are unable to produ produce here, we've already taken action to determine if we will leave the state, uh, along with the business that we have with us. So my ask of the committee today is that you table this conversation so that we can agree upon what is the definition of raum, what is the definition of crem leave? 'cause the way that it's proposed as of today, it would make my operation illegal.

Based out of Lindon, Utah. Lindon.

My name is Mac Hatto. I'm with the American Creative Association. When I sat in your seat 45 years ago in this body, I heard a witness sitting in this seat say, if there's anything I say in the next couple of minutes that you don't agree with or don't think, think is correct, ask me. And I'm in that position because they don't have a lot of time. I can tell you first that there is no such thing as a legal product of a concentrate in hundreds of milligrams in the state of Utah because the current Cranium Consumer Protection Act bars, it, you can only use food grade solvents, which have limited extraction capability in order to produce the, the concentrated or extracts properly produced at under a hundred milligrams. It just doesn't exist, and it can be enforced. Secondly, seven oh h conversion, as been described in the liver, is vastly different with the natural plant in small amounts. It does convert. When you take a seven oh H product, it's like hitting your liver with a freight train. And it's, it's significant impacts or different to the point that seven oh H manufacturers are now doing sublingual tablets and strips in order to bypass the liver entirely, because they want to go right to your bloodstream. Seven oh H is unstable. And so when a person dies, you're not gonna detect it in a post-mortem investigation unless you do it rapidly. And that's the problem. There are KPAs that are, are being enacted today in the United States, including in Wyoming. The Senate just passed it, not a ban, A-K-C-P-A Nevada, Arizona, Colorado, and Oregon have already passed the KCPA and I'm gonna be in Idaho tomorrow testifying on A-K-C-P-A bill. So it's inaccurate to suggest that this material is not being done, control this at the point of sale, not not banning consumers in Utah who responsibly use credit products.

Hi, excuse me. Hi, my name is Laura Romney and I'm here as a consumer. I'm a nine year consumer of, um, natural holy freedom for my, uh, facial nerve disease called trigeminal neuralgia. It's truly been life changing for me. I'll, I'll tell you, it's been really hard for me to sit back here today. Um, it's been very emotional because I've heard a lot of half truths and a lot of, um, things that have been twisted to make it sound like it's a fact. Um, the one thing that was very alarming to me was the fact that they were saying there was no science behind this. I just last week was invited as a consumer advocate and, um, to go to a symposium in Florida that was three straight days of the top scientists in the world that, uh, testified for eight hours a day. And in fact, Nora Voco, the director of n Erda, was one of the presenters She presented for one hour, and she presented a ton of science and, um, explained how safe natural krato is in addition to, to actual extracts, which she used really high potent extracts in the science that she actually, uh, presented for the first time at that conference. So to say there's no science is absolutely untrue. Um, another thing I wanna bring up is a lot of these deaths, there was one thing that was very much missing, the fact that there's never 7 0 8 that was brought up. Um, if you notice, they said that the, the deaths had skyrocketed or whatever had gone up in 2024 and 25. That was the year when 7 0 8 became in existence. And so, again, if you actually look at those deaths, just like Mr. Hato said, you know, those, um, those deaths are 7 0 8 deaths. That is why they increase. And, and it's a very unstable element. And so it, it washes out of your body very quickly. And so what is leftover is mitric gyne. And so thereby you're there, and again, we've, it's already been addressed how fentanyl has been the cause of like 96% of those deaths. So again, that was inaccurate. Um, uh, one thing to note too, that, uh, there was a Department of Agriculture employee that was actually at that three day science event. So he, he can actually tell you what he saw. But again, I just wanna say that, um, Creon has been life changing for me. I don't wanna go to a smoke shop to purchase it. Um, there should be extracts available for patients that literally cannot take the leaf powder. They have things like Crohn's disease, and they cannot, they can't tolerate the actual powder. So for them, extracts are lifesavers, especially a lot of those that are coming off of hard drugs to use the extracts to taper down.

You. Um, just tell me, can you tell me a little bit more about what it means to be patient advocate? Is that a paid position? Do

You, no, no. So, so yeah. So I actually work full time as, um, as the treasurer, or I'm sorry, as the president of a nonprofit that does education. I have volunteered for the last, oh gosh, 10 years as, no, it's been nine years since I've been taking it. So I volunteered for about eight years. So

You, as a president of the nonprofit, you don't get paid or you

No, I, I get paid a on nominal thing, but that's, I've only had that position for the last year because I now where I wasn't before, but I've been volunteering for the last, like, eight years with, you know, doing a patient advocate. But the reason why I went is because I wanted to learn, because I teach people about Kratom and teach localities all over the United States.

Okay. Thank you. Thanks.

Uh, my name is Danny Bordeaux and I'm an attorney, but I come here with a unique background and I wanna talk a little bit from a lay person's point of view. So my unique background is that I've worked for three different drug rehabs. And the, the interesting thing about addiction and a lot of these substances is, and what I also learned from watching the Kratom movie is when you take Kratom, people testify, they feel like a million bucks. It feels great. That is similar to all of the other drugs that people get addicted to. And so if somebody's going to be, get addicted to it, what usually happens is they start out with small amounts and then they start noticing that they're not getting the same impact. So they start taking a little bit more and a little bit more. And that's for people who are going to be addicted. That's what it feels like. There's never in their minds, especially something that's not labeled, that is not known to be harmful. They, they don't know. Um, what was also interesting to me is I talked to a young person who struggles with addictions, who is in recovery right now. And I asked them, when I first heard about cre, I asked them, what about? I said, do you know anything about Kratom? They go, what, what's wrong with Kratom? And so those people know it's on the shelves. They know it's there. They know nothing about the dangers. Thank you.

I guess I'm next. My name is Judy Jepsen. I live in Saratoga Springs. Um, I appreciate your time. I know it's late in the evening and I appreciate the opportunity. I have to talk about Kram. I'm going to give you my personal experience with Crem, and it's actually involves my husband more than myself. Um, he worked for Delta Airlines for 40 years, and most of those later years he was involved in, in the luggage department. And at 62, he went out disabled. He had multiple surgeries, two back surgeries, neck surgery, carpal tunnel surgery, uh, rotator cuff surgery, elbow surgery, and replacement of both of his knees. He was in constant pain. And as a disability, it meant that he could not sleep, he could not have any quality of life. He was introduced to Kratom after, um, a relative of ours who had had a knee replacement, or excuse me, a hip replacement. Introduced him to it. And he had been taking, um, harder drugs up until the time he tried. The Krem Krem offered him the ability to not take any more of the opioids and other, other drugs that in were giving him some help. He, he appreciated that opportunity and, and lived for, for a lot longer with, without the pain that he had been experiencing. My concern is that we enforce the purity standards control, uh, the substances. 'cause I don't want the seven HO, uh, available and make sure that the, the dosages are, are controlled and also age verification, uh, proper labeling and that sort of thing. Um, I'm not willing to go to a smoke shop to purchase it though. And I think that that's the wrong venue to be able to allow people to access the access it.

Thank you, Mr. Vice Chair. If a smoke shop where it's regulated to make sure that, uh, uh, only 21 and over can have access to it, if that's not the right place to sell it, where would the correct place be? Excuse me. You, you just made the comment that you said you do not want to go to a smoke shop to have to buy this. So if a smoke shop where it's regulated, where it requires you to have a proper id, a valid ID to be 21 and over to purchase it at the smoke shop,

What are the regulations on cigarettes at a grocery store? You don't, you still have to show id. So why is it limited to just a smoke shop?

Well, I'd like another alternative. I mean, I Do you regulate online purchases of certain things.

Got, I got it. Okay. Thank you. Is it, is it possible to reg to do a regulation, but make it available online? Sure.

My name is Joel Badger. Um, I live in Lehi and I have, um, a shop here. We are a Kratom shop. Um, we're called Grow Kratom in Salt Lake. Uh, we're the only kratom shop that I know of. And, um, I am against this bill for a few reasons. Um, this will require me to sell tobacco to sell Credo. I think that's honestly absurd. Um, I I worry that, um, smoke shops are actually the place where the people most at risk of addiction will be purchasing. Um, a couple other points. Um, I haven't seen any evidence that credit is being sold to kids, uh, from anybody in any of these meetings. Um, I would really like to see that or have that discussed. Um, colorful packaging, I don't think is, um, quite meets the, that requirement. Um, if we're saying this is being sold to kids. So I, I want to know if there have been arrests made. We've been extremely careful here. Um, all the companies that I think we've kind of, uh, you know, like say feel free, uh, we rejected them. The first sample they sent us, because they didn't tell us how much product was in it. They didn't tell much. Tell us how much Creon was in it. Um, a shot, like, you know, say this, um, hush shot by weight and volume has less a tragedy than pure leaf creto that needs to be discussed. All that's happened with this, if they've pulled out the fiber and they've added in a liquid instead. So 15 milliliters, which this is, is, is, uh, gonna be less met reine per milliliter than actual Kratom is. Um, you know, same with, you know, these shots. These are Kratom and Kaba shot. They tell you exactly how much is on them. This has about a teaspoon of Kratom in it, but it's, you know, 45, 60 milliliters. So I would just, uh, ask that we are kept in consideration here. Uh, we've been doing things correctly. We're not a big company. We've been around for 10 years. Um, I, I, uh, I really don't wanna see Cran Moldies sold in smoke shops here.

Okay. Is there my doctor's, Sorry about that. It took me just a little minute to get, um, the permission, the panelists permission. I'm Marianne Christensen. I'm executive director of Utah Legislative Watch, and I'm speaking in favor of the bill. Contrary to what Kratom producers are saying, every single testimony that I've seen of people who have lost family members to Kratom and cre a addictions and krato deaths, they've all been associated with just kratom, not kratom mixed with other drugs. I think it's very dangerous. Um, it's, it's viewed by our young adults. Like it's just another energy drink in con in concentrated form. And so it's being used by them in that way, and it's very, very dangerous. I think that it's closer to playing Russian roulette than it is to just taking an energy drink. So I supported the ban. I would love to see Utah ban it, and yes, people will buy it online, but at least we won't be, we won't be making it available to people through our Utah law, our Utah law. So, um, thank you very much. And we Oh, yes.

And I had originally intended to have Dr. Sto as part of my presentation. He's an ER doc up in, up in Logan, but he couldn't get on before. And, and now that I say that, he won't be able to get on.

If, if not, and just as we're waiting to get him up, I just remind the committee that we do have a third substitute. I, I explained it before and I can explain it again.

I move that we adopt the third substitute.

Number three. I want, I want three. Three.

I would briefly. I, I actually think the third substitute is, um, not, it's less than I want, but I understand that the senator has to get what he can get. So, um, just so people know that I would actually prefer a stronger bill than the third substitute, but I think the third substitute puts us on a path in the right direction to be able to provide some balance between some access and some regulation. So with that, I appreciate the adoption of the third sub.

I, i, I support adopting the third substitute.

Uh, thank you, Mr. Chair. Uh, I'll make a motion that we pass out, uh, Senate Bill 45 third substitute with a favorable recommendation.

Yeah, I would just briefly, um, you know, looking up some of these things and the bills that we've had in front of us, FDA says there's no no evidence of safe medical use. Safety concerns remain National Institutes of Health research ongoing pharmacologically complex, possibly promising national institutes of drug abuse, potential therapeutic compounds exist, but the risks are real. And, and they put it in the category of pharmacologically active compounds with cannabis psychedelics and herbal opioid substances. I just don't think that should be dispensed from a gas station or even a smoke shop. I think dosing and control, if I've gotta go to a pharmacist and show my IAD to get Sudafed to keep my nose from running, we've got people self dosing and using this as medicine with hardly any control. And from medical professionals, we hear the risks and the deaths and the harm and the complications with other substances over and over and over again. I think this is a step, I think it's a good step. I think, uh, in talking to my colleague here, we're gonna keep seeing more and more on this and we need to get it right, but I think we need to take this step.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have three questions if I could, um, that have come up as we went through the testimony. Um, and I apologize if it may have been covered. I had to testify in a different committee, so I missed some of the testimony, but can you speak to how seven oh h uh, in several testimonies, it was discussed that it leaves the blood as you do blood tests on how people have passed away. Is that

I I'm actually gonna phone a friend to make sure you get. I have Medical Examiner and Dr. Forsyth e either of them can answer that question.

All of the data that I presented today, um, was from testing, um, for a tragedy. We just recently started testing for seven hydroxy Alpine late last fall. And so I don't have the data prepared for seven hydroxy, or we don't have that data available to us yet.

But does it leave the body as was testified?

So Meine is, oh, sorry.

Thank you. Of course. I'm Megan Brockmeyer. I'm with the Utah office as a medical examiner.

I'm Dr. Brandon Forsyth, director of the Specialized Products Division at the Department of Agriculture and Food. So Matine is converted in the liver to seven hydroxy, but seven hydroxy is actually very short-lived in the body, as was testified to. What they didn't say is it actually is converted to pseudo and Doxil, which is an even more potent form of a Crate am alkaloid.

And you can test for that in an autopsy?

We can, uh, we don't do autopsy tests at our laboratory. We test the products themselves, but we can identify it. Yes.

We only text for INE and seven hydroxy matine.

Okay. Sorry, that was one of my questions. That's a good question. Um, is there a safe level of cranium extract from your perspective?

Is that one for me? Sure. No. Um, not that there couldn't be a safe amount as was testified to there. You don't have to make a super concentrated extract. You can, but you can also make it very dilute. The bigger question is, should we, like, is there reason to have these things on the shelf where people can take large amounts of it very easily? It's a very addictive substance, and people can start with a single dropper full, and then they can graduate to kicking back multiple shots. Um, it just seems like too big of a risk to me.

And to my third question, which goes to the good representative from West Valley, Jordan. What? West Jordan. West Jordan. That's close. It was west. Um, I, I feel like this may have a place, but I, if we pass this bill, does it effectively shut down manufacturing of this product that could be done in a different environment that maybe does have a more safe checks and balances on where it could be sold and, and purchased?

Let, let, lemme respond to that. Um, this, this would ban extracts Adulterations and the synthetics there. There's not a single manufacturer here that couldn't manufacture, produce and sell pure cradle leaf. That's, that's what this does. If, if they wanna continue selling creto in the state of Utah, it would need to be pure, pure crate leaf. They'd have to change their business model.

I guess my question though is could they still manufacture it? Just not sell it here in the state?

No.

Yeah, Mr. Chair. I, I would, I would hope not. But any, any of these companies could, could produce pure CRE leaf, they could change their business model in the state of Utah. Um, I, I work down in an area where there's lots of nutraceutical companies that manufacture a lot of different products and, and companies, companies evolve and they, and they change. And certainly this, this would be a restriction. But, um, as I've negotiated this bill with, with your house members, the goal was to preserve and protect pure, pure raum leaf and they'd be able to do that.

Um, let me, let me just read, I'll be really quick. Um, I, I know this issue on extract is gonna continue to come forward, and I suspect it'll be an issue as it moves forward if this bill forward moves forward. And I appreciate that. I'm gonna read just two labels from two products that are, that are preferred vendors on the American Creative Association's webpage. One is from Mint 45, 1 is from OPMS, um, one of them you saw Mint 45 Super K extra Strong. You've just found your strongest creative shots, super k extra strong. Every purple bottle features 1,250 milligrams or a broad spectrum extract. This shot contains a total of 1,250 milligrams of Creto extract with a total of 375 milligrams of Gyny. Um, I, I think the testimony from the experts today is that Gyny converts into 7 0 8 and that, and that is very, very dangerous. Lemme read a warning from OPMS. This is also a company prominently featured on the American Cranium Association's website. It says this crem. This is crem extract not raw leaf. The miy and other alkaloid content in this product are multiple times greater than that of raw leaf, resulting in increased potency and extract product. As with all CRE products, do not use them without first consulting with a healthcare professional, using trony can be dangerous. There have been reports of adverse health effects associated with u using CRE products, using some publications have suggested that KRATO may be associated with serious potential side effects, including seizures, liver damage, withdrawal, addiction, abuse, and death. This product has not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product has not been deemed fit for US consumption by the FDA. That's directly from the website, OPMS, which is a preferred vendor for the American Freedom Association. With that, I would urge support of the motion. Thank you.

Just briefly. I think this bill makes it marginally safer. I want to be very clear. I don't think this makes it safe. I think it makes it marginally safer. And for that it's a, it's a step incurred for the motion.

No, that was for the previous motion, but I guess I'll motion to adjourn now.

the Credit Protection Act. This is something that we voted on in 2019, and, and unfortunately that was something that, that I voted for, and it came through the house. It actually, it actually passed with a 39 vote. And I think that was a mistake. Um, since we passed the CRE Protection Act, we have had deaths in the state of Utah skyrocket. And I think what we've learned is that Kratom is a significant problem in the state of Utah. Um, I'm gonna read a, a label this, this is from a company called OPMS. This is a preferred vendor on the American CRE Association's webpage. And I think it's important to point this out. This is what the disclaimer says. It says, this product has not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. These statements have not been evaluated by the FDA. This product has not been deemed fit for US consumption by the FDA. The warning goes on to, to read this crem extract not raw leaf. As with all CRE products, do not use them without first consulting with your healthcare professional using nitrogenous, OSIS can be dangerous. There have been reports of adverse health effects associated with using, using Crem products. Some of these publications suggest Kratom may be associated with serious potential side effects, including seizure, liver damage, withdrawal addiction, abuse, and death. Um, what this, what this bill does is it, it simply takes us back to where we were before. And I, I think there probably is some benefit to raw Leaf. I think we need to ban Crate 'em right now and start over. But we had some really good testimony in the committee. This bill was supported by the Utah Medical Association. They were there to testify. Our Department of Agriculture was there to testify in support of the bill. The statewide Association of Prosecutors was there to support the bill. Um, since this, this Cradle Protection Act has passed in the state of Utah, we've had upwards of 160 deaths in the state of Utah. With that, I'm open for questions,

Now, you, you talked about natural. Does this include, uh, synthetic in any way? Or is this an outright band on it? Senator Mikel?

Yeah, a great question. This does, this would ban the synthetics as well. And those are some of the problems the Department of Agriculture has had. They've, they've struggled to regulate synthetics, but it would ban the synthetics as well.

No, thank, thank you for that. Thank you.

Sir. Thank you, Mr. President Proti. Uh, I'm wondering, uh, the sponsor said, uh, talked about, um, what could be done next, what type of programs could be done next? And I know that that's not in the bill, and I'm just wondering what that means.

Yeah, a a great question. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. President Pro. Um, I, I think we need to look at a model and find a way to control it in a, in a, in a way that's appropriate right now is sold in smoke shops and gas stations, if this product is going to remain available to folks. Um, similar, similar to the warning on this website called OPMS, again, one of the vendors on the American Creative Association. It's very clear that even the industry itself recognizes the need to involve doctors and pharmacists. Um, we've built some type of regulatory framework with, with marijuana. We need, we need to find a way to do it in an appropriate way. And I think the best way is, is probably to start, start over. Um, we're still early in the session. I am looking at, at what that model could look like as well. But Right, right now I think it's important to get it away from kids, get it outta gas stations, get it outta smoke shops. This is a very harmful product.

No, thank you. Um, Mr. President Pro tem. I, that makes a whole lot of sense to me.

Thank you. Uh, Mr. Um, president Pro Tem. I'm assuming the sponsor is yielded.

I'm just wondering if this ban went into effect, uh, this year as proposed, how many businesses would this impact in the state of Utah? Utah?

Thank you for the question. I don't know.

Yeah. I'm just wondering of the deaths that have been mentioned in Utah, um, do we know how many of those were from natural crate mal alone as opposed to Crate 'em being mixed with other, with other products?

You. Great question. So we've had about 160 deaths. So a death that is mixed with another drug is called polysubstance. Similar to opioid deaths, there are a number of deaths that are polysubstance. And that that's somebody who dies from some form of opioid, but also has a drug similar to Gabapentin in the system. The state hasn't broken those out. They've confirmed to me that we've had multiple CCRA only deaths. The state of Florida, there was extensive research done, and in their research they found 46 out of the 500. So, so just under 10% of the deaths they had in their state were create 'em only. Thank

Um, I, I just, uh, I don't have any questions, but I just wanted to say, um, this bill came out of, um, business and Labor Committee. I was, I was the only no vote. Um, uh, which is fine. Um, I am not necessarily pro crem. Um, I'm not a consumer, uh, per se of Kratom. Um, but I am concerned that, um, um, that we're going to ban it. I I, I tend to agree with a good senator from Utah County that it shouldn't be sold in gas stations. Um, and, uh, I tend to agree that, um, uh, it, it needs more study and that we should be studying it and looking at it. There's a lot of, uh, products that we know that are harmful, uh, that we, uh, we allow adults to, um, choose to consume. I think there's no better example than nicotine. We know it co it contributes to, to cancer like lung cancer. And, and yet we haven't banned it. Uh, we regulate it. Um, I am concerned, um, that if we ban Kratom, it's not gonna leave the state. We're gonna force it into the black market. And, um, I think that's one of the reasons why, uh, after Rhode Island banned Kratom, they came back and they unbound it, um, a short time later. And so, um, I just wanna say the science on Kratom is still evolving. We know it's not an opioid, but it interacts with opioid receptors in some complex ways. And, um, I think that what we really need to do is to study it and get some, um, science so that we can make a data-driven decision rather than a, um, an emotional or a knee-jerk, um, decision. So, Mr. President, I actually have a, a substitute online, uh, that I'd like to move. Um, first of all, what the substitute would do is it would raise, uh, the age to purchase creative in Utah, uh, up to the age of 21, which we have done with, um, some other products. Um, so it's kind of taking it out of, uh, you know, teenager's hands. And we have a committee, um, that is already formed, um, in the state of Utah called the Controlled Substance Advisory Committee. Um, and this bill would, um, uh, ask the committee to review the scientific, medical and regulatory information related to creative products and to evaluate the safety profile patterns of use and appropriate regulatory framework for creating products. And then submit a written report including recommendations for legislative action to the Health and Human Services interim committee no later than January of next year. And with that explanation, um, Mr. President, and this is not a friendly sub, um, but I, I am trying to be friendly 'cause I have a great respect for the sponsor and for his passion on this issue. I would like to move that we delete Senate Bill 45 in Thailand and body and replace it with first substitute Senate Bill 45. That motion is appropriate. Uh, Senator Vickers, uh, that, that, uh, substitute is online. I'm gonna go back to the sponsor. Um, and then we'll take questions after that. Yeah.

Thank you to the Substitute. Thank you, Mr. President Foram? Yeah, this is unfriendly. This, this is an attempt. Um, I, I, I know this is, is a a, an attempt to slow down this bill to keep Kratom. If we wait a year, we're gonna have another a hundred deaths. I think it'd be inappropriate to do that. But the good sponsor mentioned Rhode Island. And I wanna be clear what happened in Rhode Rhode Island. I've had a chance to reach out to lawmakers in Rhode Island and Rhode Island. Uh, their law has not gone into effect the Creative Protection Act, but it was lobbied heavily. Um, it was heavy, heavily lobbied. And the bill was run by the President pro tem Brian Patrick Kennedy, who is of dear friend with one of our former colleagues here in this body who lobbied Kratom heavily in that state. And it, and it concerns me, I think Rhode Island is a bad example. I know in the state of Rhode Island, as I talked to lawmakers in Rhode Island, that the state agencies opposed the Kratom Protection Act as well as law enforcement. And they felt like it was a bad idea, but it was, it was pushed by, I I think a lot of, you know, Brian, Brian Patrick Kennedy, speaker Pro Tim from Rhode Island. I think it was a step in the wrong direction. I know the lawmakers in that state are still, are still fighting that issue, but the idea that the law wasn't working is inaccurate, talking to lawmakers in Rhode Island, they, they were concerned and, and the state was concerned and the state agencies were concerned. But despite that opposition, it, it did pass. But this, this would be unfriendly, this would be another year of deaths in the state of Utah. This would be another year of having this, this type of creto in gas stations and smoke shops around the state able to be sold at age 18.

Yeah, I, I would also speak against it. I think we, we made a big mistake in 2018 or 2019. That was one of the first votes that, that I had. It was, uh, I was against it in the committee. I was against it on the floor of the house when I was, when I was in the other body. Uh, it's time to go backwards. It's time to reset. I, I don't wanna see anything that would weaken, uh, that, that reset. Uh, you know, and we can, we can study whether there's benefits and how that should be done, but we don't use our people as a Petri dish, especially out of our gas stations. And that's what's happening with CRA right now. It's time to, it's time to end the, the use of this product. It's time to study it effectively. It's time to, to do it safely. Uh, it's a new product. It's still an opioid. It, it acts like an opioid. It binds into the body's receptors like an opioid. We need to understand what's going on because I have yet to see an opioid that is, that is safe for gas station use. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. President. Uh, this has been a very interesting kind of policy journey to watch both as someone who was not elected when it went through and now as someone who's elected and in the body. And I think that there's some really unique challenges in trying to figure out the best policy in that space, in that we have a product that is regulated as a food item. So we can't look at our typical medication or substance type strategies to keep people safe. So with a a medication, you could make it, you know, a controlled substance class one, and then it can't be put out there or two harder to get, three harder to get. This is a food product. So we don't have those levers. We also have the unfortunate situation of, of realizing that a product that potentially had shown benefit to people got taken over by an industry that unfortunately was and has been reckless in the way that it's been put out into communities. I do believe that looking at the data on the Pure Leaf product, there is something there that has been helpful to people. People will tell us it's helpful there, anecdotal evidence is out there, but then it got put in spaces where instead of just being that it was amplified by being an extract, the seven hydroxy has absolutely zero place in our society. And I know there's another bill addressing that, but even the products that aren't specifically that end up being metabolized to be that. So I find myself trying to think of what a regulatory structure would look like that could try to dwell that somehow. And I don't find one, it's a food, not a medicine. I don't find a way for us to do that. I don't find a way for our agencies to be able to regulate it. Well, I don't feel that we've demonstrated strong regulation with products here thus far. So while I actually really do appreciate what the good sponsor of this sub is trying to do, I don't see a pathway for that to be done safely at this time. And I think that the, the poll plug has to be pulled and it has to be taken back out. And maybe in the future there's a way to build a safe structure, but I don't see how you do it now. Thank you, Mr. President, the sponsor.

Thank you, Mr. President. Um, I would speak against the motion to substitute. Um, this is, this is an area that we, you know, we've had great discussion about, uh, for, you know, a number of months going back probably about 18 months now, and trying to figure out what's the right policy and what's the best way to move forward as we approach Now we've got a couple of options out there, and one is, uh, Senate Bill 48, which is circled on third. And that's, and that was the one, if you remember that bill that, uh, that I ran that is am running that schedules, uh, seme seven hydroxy metrology and, and a couple of related alkaloids. Uh, Senator ml's bill is a little different approach. And now my bill would still allow for some trace elements of CRE in it. So you could sell CRE products. The challenge is with that one, it does not have the regulatory piece in it with Senator ML'S bill currently as, uh, in the, in the original bill, it would, uh, um, schedule all of the related METR gene alkaloids. So essentially it would take, take all of them off the market. Uh, I don't disagree that we need to study Crate 'em and, you know, and center Senator Weiler substitute. I don't disagree with that. I don't know what the right, where the right place to do that is. It would be probably, if we did it on a state level, it would probably cost somewhere between 250, 500,000 to do it. Uh, if we, going forward, the policy discussion I think we need to have in the legislature is do we wanna allow some of these freedom products to be sold and if so, under what circumstances and what regulation, the substitute really just takes, kind of takes that off the table and just puts it into a, a study. So I think going forward, you kinda have to think of it that way. Do I, do I support completely taking them off or, you know, taking off the table or do I con to support keeping some of them on? And if so, how are we gonna regulate it? Uh, as we move forward and make that policy decision, then we can start implementing there. I think there's tools out there to implement the, the regulation piece, but it's still, the worry I have is that we have seen situations where the door is open and, and people drive a truck through it. And so there's some challenges with that, that approach. So like I say, at this point I would speak against the substitute. Not that we don't need to study, in fact, I, I, no matter what policy decision we need to make, I think we choose to make, I think we need to study, uh, CRE and its potential good and bad. Dis dis, pure crate. We already know what seven oh H does. So, you know. Anyway, with that, Mr. President, I would speak against the motion to substitute.

Going back, uh, I think Senator Weiler for summation on the motion to sub. Thank you. Uh, appreciate the good discussion. Um, again, um, the substitute bill would do two things. Um, it would raise the, uh, the age of sale from 18 to 21, which would make it, uh, the same as liquor, which we also know is a dangerous, uh, product that people consume, but we don't ban it. And it would ask our already existing controlled substance advisory committee, um, to study creative and come back with a report next year. Um, and, um, I, I think that this, uh, I think good data, uh, drives good decisions and, um, rather than, um, banning something that's been legal in this state for seven years, uh, I, I think that this is a good intermediary step and I would ask the chamber to support the first sub. Thank you.

Thank you. I, now back to the underline. Thank you president. Um, I, let me just wrap up with just a few comments. I, I actually kind of phoned a friend. I looked in my emails. One of the questions was asked, I said, about 10% of the deaths are crate only. Um, I've got the data. And I looked in my email. Megan Brohi, she is DHHS, drug Overdose Prevention Research Coordinator. She actually testified in the committee, and I've been asking for that data. And we, I went back and looked in the email. I said it was about 10% and the number, it was 15, which is about 10%. And that's what we're seeing across the nation. Um, I wanna just talk about science. It needs to be studied, but it needs to be studied. Right. I'm gonna put something on the record. Um, the Cred Association has come to the capitol with some studies from, from a group called Piney and Associates. And I've done my homework and I've also looked at the nine nineties from the groups associated with the CRE Institute and the Piney Association, um, has paid for a lot of the CRE association through the Piney, through Piney And Association has paid for a lot of research. Um, in 2024, they paid $156,998. In 2023, they paid $360,089 in twenty twenty, a hundred fifty 6,000 9 59 for a total of 673,000. Some of that research is floating around. I think they're distributing it to many of you. But I wanna be clear on the record. In, in the committee herein, there was a gentleman that came from the association and said, said that I was inaccurate. The CRE Associa Association was paying for the research. That's the research that they've brought to Capitol Hill. Um, the research that's important. I, there's some really good research out there and, and I, I want to end with, with this research. And that is, this is research from the University of Columbia, not paid for by industry on other, on either side. And that is the, the research is clear that ragy, which is the main alkaloid and k*m, when you ingest it into your body in high amounts, it metabolizes into seven oh h And, and, and it's important to recognize that we need to get seven oh H out of the picture. It's very, very dangerous. But the more kratom you take, the more extracted, more adulterated kratom you take, the more your body produces 7 0 8. And, and I really think it's important to recognize that with that, I would, I would urge support Mr. President. And, and, and I don't know if questions are closed, but there you go.

Senator Spery Lewin Rammer Bus Comore Illa Fillmore Grover Harper Kins Ipson Aye. Johnson Aye. Juab McKay. Mikel Aye. Milner Husman Owens Pitcher Lum Re, sandal Stevenson Stratton Bickers Weiler Wilson Winterton, president Adams Aye.

Yeah. Yes. President, I've been working with, with the house, and this doesn't go as far as I, I would've liked, but it, it's a compromise that I've been working on with the house. So, just, just some of the changes. Um, we've, we've had a bunch of committee hearings. We are gonna allow some pure leaf crem to be sold. Um, it's going to be very, very narrow. This is going to eliminate, um, hopefully, you know, 90 plus percent of our problem in the state of Utah. But we are gonna allow for some pure crem leaf to be sold in the state of Utah. That's going to be done in specialty shops. We'd, we'd explored pharmacies, we'd explored some other places that just didn't make any sense. Um, this, this bill also gives the Department of Agriculture some new tools that they haven't had in the past, but that, that's the purpose of, of the substitute is, is to make that change. Um, other than that, it's, it, it's great Bill, and I'm happy to explain it further, but I'll go to that point.

In support of the second sub. I, I agree. Um, with the premise of, uh, taking this product out of gas stations, which this will move it into vape shops. Um, and, um, I like the idea of, uh, allowing the pure CCRA to be sold. I, um, I think a lot of the problems that we've heard about, not, maybe not all of 'em, but a lot of them have been with the, the items that it's been mixed with. So I'll be supporting the sub. Thank you.

Yeah, I actually do not like the substitute. I'd prefer to just be done with raum, not have a regulatory environment related to it. Um, I think it's gonna be more expensive to regulate. I think that the fiscal bill, the fiscal note, probably, you know, I haven't seen one come through for the second substitute, but, uh, I would guess that it goes up. Um, when you just say you can't use, you can't sell crem. It's a lot easier to regulate than if you say you can, you can sell certain types of creto but not others. And then there's a whole testing regulatory environment. So I would speak against the substitute. I, uh, I like the original bill and I'd like to see Crem out of our stores, all of them. Thank you.

Yeah, and, and, and I appreciate those comments and, and I, and I don't, I don't disagree with what Senator Brammer is saying. Um, my preference would be, would be to ban it entirely. Um, I, I've been working, working with the house hard, and, and there, there's some concern to make sure there is, is a framework to sell at least some of this pure Kratom. Um, this will eliminate the, the vast, vast majority of the market, 90 plus percent of the market. Um, I've, I've told a lot of you in my experience, I went and bought Crate. I asked every clerk, sell me, sell me what, what people are buying. Everything I bought was extracted or adulterated. This would eliminate all of that from the state of Utah. I think it's a good compromise to be working on with, with the house. But with that, I'd urge support of the substitute and then have a chance to talk about the bill.

Thank, thank you. And I, I appreciate that discussion and, and I appreciate the concerns. It, this is clearly a product that's problematic. Um, we, we've talked about this a lot. I don't wanna, I don't wanna beat a dead horse. This has been, this has been banned by the Department of Defense. This has been banned by the Marines. This has been banned by the Navy. This product is not safe. Um, one of the votes that I regret the most, and, and, and I've said this on the record, I'm gonna say it here today, in 2019, I voted for the CRE and Protection Act. And I think, I think that was a mistake since we passed the CRE and Protection Act, our deaths have continued to increase. We have upwards of 200 deaths in the state of Utah. And, and, and let me tell you, I I'm really concerned about some of what I see from the Kratom industry itself. Um, there, there's a, there's a false dialogue that continues to be spread that nobody dies from pure Kratom. That that's, that's not true. About 10% of the cases are pure Kratom and the adulterated Kratos, the extracted Kratos, the Kratos, that we make more potent metabolize in our bodies into 7 0 8. I, I appreciate the work that's been done. I appreciate Senator Vickers kind of taking the lead on this as well. Um, I think he's got a, a very good bill as well. Getting rid of 7 0 8. Um, the lowest standard I can see in the country right now on 7 0 8 is point is 1%. His bill takes it to 0.4. So it goes even below that. And I think, I think collectively we're, we're moving in the right direction. But with that, I would, I open up for questions on this bill.

You, Mr. Thank you, Mr. President Pro tem. Um, I do rise in support of this. Uh, this is not, this has been a challenging topic to get your hands around. We've been talking about it for, well, I've been working on it, you know, through interim that for like 18 months and trying to find what's the, you know, the right balance. Um, Senator McKell with this substitute is, is Blanding those ideas together. So he's taking my bill, which, uh, which would be Senate Bill 48, which is circled on third, would have banned all seven hydroxy products and some additional alkaloids. Um, there's a re if you know, there was another bill coming outta the house that was a re regulatory piece that would, if we chose to allow some forms of creating to be sold, how we would regulate that. We actually have a pattern in place because we are modeling that simply after the, the hemp products that are being regulated right now, currently in, in stores. So he's merging that. So the policy now is saying, you know, and we've had the discussion about do we allow some type of creon to be sold? Uh, do we ban it completely? And I know that there's a strong sentiment about that, and I could certainly live with that. Um, on the regulatory piece, what he's proposing now is that it's, it really does narrow it down to, to raw crate, which by definition has a very small trace amount of 7 0 8, and you'd have to consume a significant amount of that, meaning a lot in order to get to a therapeutic level. And he's pulling in also, you know, we recognize that you've been working in this. If you just think back at the other substances, we've dealt with spice, you remember the Spice Wars? Every year we came back with a new version. We finally kind of found some language to kick take care of that in perpetuity. He's incorporating that component into the 7 8, 7 0 8 and the, and Theum alkaloids because there'll be another one out there sometime. There's gonna be something else that we're gonna be dealing with. And so we're trying, I think that I applaud the efforts in working with the drafting attorneys and others to get language in that'll kind of help that going forward. So, and then the next question was, okay, if we're going to allow products to be sold, what narrow type of product can be sold? How's it gonna be regulated? And where, and that's, that's become a big question. We explored a number of different options. Um, it would now be sold only in a tobacco specialty shop. So it would pull it out of convenience stores, gas stations, those kind of things, and allow it to be sold there under very strict guidelines behind the counter and, and 21 years of age. So, like I say it this, or I think this after all the discussion we've had and the discussions that even started up bef shortly before the session and now coming together, it's kind of that time in the session where we gotta kind of focus on what we want to do. This, this is the proposal going forward. And I, I think at this point in time, it's the right one. And, um, and we, I think it's going to put things in place to, to allow it, but to be regulated and, and highly controlled. So if you think about a, a big bundle of stuff that's being sold currently out there in the market, when you, when you start thinking about the drinks and the, and the other products that are out there, this is gonna narrow it down to a, just a small sack that's gonna be able to be sold. And then it would be tightly, tightly. So because of that, I applaud the efforts of the, the good sponsor and, uh, and urge your support.

Thank you. And, and I appreciate the comments of the good Senator from Cedar City. It, it, it's been a lot, a lot of work and, and I, I echo the sentiments of the, the good representative from Alpine. I, I, I kind of see it the same way, but, but I also, sometimes to get a mile, you gotta give up an inch or an inch or two. And, and right now I think this moves the policy in the right direction. This, this fixes the 95% of our problem right now. Um, and, and you know, I hope we don't have to come back and continue to work on it, but I'm suspicious that, that we may need to do that. But with that, I would move this bill pass.

Thank, thank you. And I, I appreciate that discussion and, and I appreciate the concerns. It, this is clearly a product that's problematic. Um, we, we've talked about this a lot. I don't wanna, I don't wanna beat a dead horse. This has been, this has been banned by the Department of Defense. This has been banned by the Marines. This has been banned by the Navy. This product is not safe. Um, one of the votes that I regret the most, and, and, and I've said this on the record, I'm gonna say it here today, in 2019, I voted for the CRE and Protection Act. And I think, I think that was a mistake since we passed the CRE and Protection Act, our deaths have continued to increase. We have upwards of 200 deaths in the state of Utah. And, and, and let me tell you, I I'm really concerned about some of what I see from the Kratom industry itself. Um, there, there's a, there's a false dialogue that continues to be spread that nobody dies from pure Kratom. That that's, that's not true. About 10% of the cases are pure Kratom and the adulterated Kratos, the extracted Kratos, the Kratos, that we make more potent metabolize in our bodies into 7 0 8. I, I appreciate the work that's been done. I appreciate Senator Vickers kind of taking the lead on this as well. Um, I think he's got a, a very good bill as well. Getting rid of 7 0 8. Um, the lowest standard I can see in the country right now on 7 0 8 is point is 1%. His bill takes it to 0.4. So it goes even below that. And I think, I think collectively we're, we're moving in the right direction. But with that, I would, I open up for questions on this bill.

You, Mr. Thank you, Mr. President Pro tem. Um, I do rise in support of this. Uh, this is not, this has been a challenging topic to get your hands around. We've been talking about it for, well, I've been working on it, you know, through interim that for like 18 months and trying to find what's the, you know, the right balance. Um, Senator McKell with this substitute is, is Blanding those ideas together. So he's taking my bill, which, uh, which would be Senate Bill 48, which is circled on third, would have banned all seven hydroxy products and some additional alkaloids. Um, there's a re if you know, there was another bill coming outta the house that was a re regulatory piece that would, if we chose to allow some forms of creating to be sold, how we would regulate that. We actually have a pattern in place because we are modeling that simply after the, the hemp products that are being regulated right now, currently in, in stores. So he's merging that. So the policy now is saying, you know, and we've had the discussion about do we allow some type of creon to be sold? Uh, do we ban it completely? And I know that there's a strong sentiment about that, and I could certainly live with that. Um, on the regulatory piece, what he's proposing now is that it's, it really does narrow it down to, to raw crate, which by definition has a very small trace amount of 7 0 8, and you'd have to consume a significant amount of that, meaning a lot in order to get to a therapeutic level. And he's pulling in also, you know, we recognize that you've been working in this. If you just think back at the other substances, we've dealt with spice, you remember the Spice Wars? Every year we came back with a new version. We finally kind of found some language to kick take care of that in perpetuity. He's incorporating that component into the 7 8, 7 0 8 and the, and Theum alkaloids because there'll be another one out there sometime. There's gonna be something else that we're gonna be dealing with. And so we're trying, I think that I applaud the efforts in working with the drafting attorneys and others to get language in that'll kind of help that going forward. So, and then the next question was, okay, if we're going to allow products to be sold, what narrow type of product can be sold? How's it gonna be regulated? And where, and that's, that's become a big question. We explored a number of different options. Um, it would now be sold only in a tobacco specialty shop. So it would pull it out of convenience stores, gas stations, those kind of things, and allow it to be sold there under very strict guidelines behind the counter and, and 21 years of age. So, like I say it this, or I think this after all the discussion we've had and the discussions that even started up bef shortly before the session and now coming together, it's kind of that time in the session where we gotta kind of focus on what we want to do. This, this is the proposal going forward. And I, I think at this point in time, it's the right one. And, um, and we, I think it's going to put things in place to, to allow it, but to be regulated and, and highly controlled. So if you think about a, a big bundle of stuff that's being sold currently out there in the market, when you, when you start thinking about the drinks and the, and the other products that are out there, this is gonna narrow it down to a, just a small sack that's gonna be able to be sold. And then it would be tightly, tightly. So because of that, I applaud the efforts of the, the good sponsor and, uh, and urge your support.

Thank you. And, and I appreciate the comments of the good Senator from Cedar City. It, it, it's been a lot, a lot of work and, and I, I echo the sentiments of the, the good representative from Alpine. I, I, I kind of see it the same way, but, but I also, sometimes to get a mile, you gotta give up an inch or an inch or two. And, and right now I think this moves the policy in the right direction. This, this fixes the 95% of our problem right now. Um, and, and you know, I hope we don't have to come back and continue to work on it, but I'm suspicious that, that we may need to do that. But with that, I would move this bill pass.

Clerk for items on the house. Served reading calendar. Third substitute Senate Bill 45 Freedom Adjustments by Senator Mikel. This bill was served in business and labor with a vote of 13 0 3. The House sponsors Representative Hall.

Representative Hall. Thank you Mr. Speaker. Motion to adopt. Fourth substitute.

Um, yes, this substitute adds in, um, some carefully negotiated changes to allow, um, some of the creative producing companies here in Utah to continue to produce for, for another year.

You. Thank you Mr. Speaker, about the sponsor yield? Yes.

In the fourth substitute, we are allowing them to produce specifically what types of products?

Um, thank you. So it will allow them to prepare, prepare, possess, distribute, and sell creative products that are not pure Leaf Creon products until March 6th, 2027. So long as the sale happens outside of Utah and does not exceed 0.4% of the seven hydroxy reine.

Thank you Mr. Speaker. A follow up if I may.

Yes, yes. Representative.

So just to make sure I understand. So these are people who are producing extracts in the state of Utah. Those extracts would not be available for sale in the state of Utah. We're just gonna allow them to produce and export and only for one year. So that gives them time to figure out their business model and other, otherwise the bill goes, has the same requirements that are in the, the third sub, which is Pure Leaf only. Is that correct?

That is correct. That is correct. Um, giving them time to ramp down or change into the production of the Pure Leaf Kratom only.

Thank you Mr. Speaker. I would encourage adoption of the four sub.

Thank you Mr. Speaker. Would the sponsor yield Representative Hall, will you yield?

Thank you. Um, there's been a lot of chatter about this bill and there's a lot of concern that there's been kind of a failure to have conversations with the industry. Can you speak to, um, the, the actual meetings that have happened with the underlying sponsor and the industry?

Uh, thank you Mr. Speaker. Um, I cannot speak to the, I can't, I can't speak to that. I'm not sure all of the conversations that has happened with the industry and the sponsor. I know we've had a lot of conversations with UDAF, with the poison control, with physicians, with, um, the other stakeholders that have come to the table on this with the Department of Health and Human Services, drug safe, Utah Statewide Association of Prosecutors and the Utah Medical Association. Um, as far as the industry, I am not, I'm not sure on that.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I, I have concerns with the process. I appreciate the motivations behind this, but I also have concerns with the process. The Utah way is to include all parties as we're discussing, especially, um, shutting down or potentially shutting down a business that, um, that is a $20 million business in the state of Utah. We generally pride ourselves in being business friendly. And while safety is important, and I wholeheartedly agree with those conversations, I think there also needs to be conversations with the business.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Um, I would like to take the opportunity to address the previous question. Having myself been a big part of the conversation in this issue, not just for the past year on this policy development, but for several years. Um, my experience has been that every time that we've engaged with the industry, we've been told no, that there was no compromise, there was no opportunity for movement. So much so that, um, every policy that had been passed, or pre, I'm not sorry, not passed, but presented in the past, had been stymied and undermined by the industry itself, leading to lawsuits against the state of Utah, the tune of several million dollars every time our, uh, regulatory agencies did their very best to reasonably regulate this industry. And so, I like the pon the floor sponsor of this bill. Can't speak to exactly to the conversations that the Senate sponsor had with industry, but this is a long time, um, conversation that has, um, not been productive by many of the stakeholders who oppose this resolution. And so, um, because of that, I believe that this bill and this substitute moves the state in a positive direction and does give very reasonable concessions to make sure that the industry has an off ramp to comply with a policy that we believe is best suited to the health and wellbeing and safety of Utahans I'd support. Uh, I would strongly support, uh, the motion to substitute and the underlying bill.

Um, yes, I, I appreciate the conversation and I wanna say that this substitute actually reflects conversations that maybe not with the specific Senate sponsor, um, and industry. It reflects conversations with a lot of people in this body and industry. And I would encourage the adoption of this as it does allow for, um, some, some sort of an off ramp for, for the industry. Thank you.

Thank you Mr. Speaker. I'd like to move, um, amendment one. Um, in my name.

Yeah. So, um, I appreciate the, the work, uh, to get to this, to, to a position that it's in. Um, the amendment that I'm proposing allows crem to continue past that March 6th, 2027 date, um, and allows, uh, manufacturers to stay in the state of Utah, uh, but cannot sell their crem products in the state of Utah. So that's, uh, that's what my amendment does.

Okay. Uh, would you like to, well, let's see.

I don't have an amendment on the fourth sub. Um, but can I move the circle?

Um, I would reject that motion. I think we're ready to go on this, but I'll leave it to the body.

I'm in favor of the motion to circle.

That motion is in order. Would like to speak to it. Um, yes, this substitute adds in, um, some carefully negotiated changes to allow, um, some of the creative producing companies here in Utah to continue to produce for, for another year.

You. Thank you Mr. Speaker, about the sponsor yield? Yes.

Representative Hall, will you yield? Yes. Yes.

Representative Thurston. So In the fourth substitute, we are allowing them to produce specifically what types of products?

Um, thank you. So it will allow them to prepare, prepare, possess, distribute, and sell creative products that are not pure Leaf Creon products until March 6th, 2027. So long as the sale happens outside of Utah and does not exceed 0.4% of the seven hydroxy reine.

Thank you Mr. Speaker. A follow up if I may. Representative, will you continue to yield to a series of questions or to a follow up question?

Yes, yes. Representative.

So just to make sure I understand. So these are people who are producing extracts in the state of Utah. Those extracts would not be available for sale in the state of Utah. We're just gonna allow them to produce and export and only for one year. So that gives them time to figure out their business model and other, otherwise the bill goes, has the same requirements that are in the, the third sub, which is Pure Leaf only. Is that correct?

That is correct. That is correct. Um, giving them time to ramp down or change into the production of the Pure Leaf Kratom only.

Thank you Mr. Speaker. I would encourage adoption of the four sub.

Thank you Mr. Speaker. Would the sponsor yield Representative Hall, will you yield?

Yes. Yes. Representative Blaby.

Thank you. Um, there's been a lot of chatter about this bill and there's a lot of concern that there's been kind of a failure to have conversations with the industry. Can you speak to, um, the, the actual meetings that have happened with the underlying sponsor and the industry?

Uh, thank you Mr. Speaker. Um, I cannot speak to the, I can't, I can't speak to that. I'm not sure all of the conversations that has happened with the industry and the sponsor. I know we've had a lot of conversations with UDAF, with the poison control, with physicians, with, um, the other stakeholders that have come to the table on this with the Department of Health and Human Services, drug safe, Utah Statewide Association of Prosecutors and the Utah Medical Association. Um, as far as the industry, I am not, I'm not sure on that.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I, I have concerns with the process. I appreciate the motivations behind this, but I also have concerns with the process. The Utah way is to include all parties as we're discussing, especially, um, shutting down or potentially shutting down a business that, um, that is a $20 million business in the state of Utah. We generally pride ourselves in being business friendly. And while safety is important, and I wholeheartedly agree with those conversations, I think there also needs to be conversations with the business.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Um, I would like to take the opportunity to address the previous question. Having myself been a big part of the conversation in this issue, not just for the past year on this policy development, but for several years. Um, my experience has been that every time that we've engaged with the industry, we've been told no, that there was no compromise, there was no opportunity for movement. So much so that, um, every policy that had been passed, or pre, I'm not sorry, not passed, but presented in the past, had been stymied and undermined by the industry itself, leading to lawsuits against the state of Utah, the tune of several million dollars every time our, uh, regulatory agencies did their very best to reasonably regulate this industry. And so, I like the pon the floor sponsor of this bill. Can't speak to exactly to the conversations that the Senate sponsor had with industry, but this is a long time, um, conversation that has, um, not been productive by many of the stakeholders who oppose this resolution. And so, um, because of that, I believe that this bill and this substitute moves the state in a positive direction and does give very reasonable concessions to make sure that the industry has an off ramp to comply with a policy that we believe is best suited to the health and wellbeing and safety of Utahans I'd support. Uh, I would strongly support, uh, the motion to substitute and the underlying bill.

Um, yes, I, I appreciate the conversation and I wanna say that this substitute actually reflects conversations that maybe not with the specific Senate sponsor, um, and industry. It reflects conversations with a lot of people in this body and industry. And I would encourage the adoption of this as it does allow for, um, some, some sort of an off ramp for, for the industry. Thank you.

Thank you Mr. Speaker. I'd like to move, um, amendment one. Um, in my name. Thank you, representative. I have that amendment. Uh, would you like to speak to it? Yeah. So, um, I appreciate the, the work, uh, to get to this, to, to a position that it's in. Um, the amendment that I'm proposing allows crem to continue past that March 6th, 2027 date, um, and allows, uh, manufacturers to stay in the state of Utah, uh, but cannot sell their crem products in the state of Utah. So that's, uh, that's what my amendment does.

I don't have an amendment on the fourth sub. Um, but can I move the circle?

Um, I would reject that motion. I think we're ready to go on this, but I'll leave it to the body.

I'm in favor of the motion to circle.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, um, colleagues for me, this, this conversation started about three years ago when a constituent mentioned something to me about Kratom and a concern he was seeing in his neighborhood. He was one of my delegates. Um, I had never heard of Cranham before. I started looking into it a little bit, and about a year ago, I heard from an emergency room physician friend of mine up in northern Utah who, uh, asked me what was going on at the state that we have allowed this kratom to be sold in, in gas stations. And over the counter as he had had, um, he had just had a death, um, come through his emergency room, and he was also seeing more and more patients withdrawing from Kratom. Um, then I received a couple months later a call from a nurse practitioner in my district with the same concerns. And then I had a delegate, not a delegate, sorry, a constituent friend that reached out who was a former opioid addict who had been clean for seven or eight years when someone gave him an, an extracted form of creto that from the grocery store that he tried. And he said it was a familiar feeling, but he rationalized it because it was in the grocery store in Utah, in the, in the gas station in Utah. And so he rationalized it, even though he felt that familiar feeling of when he was addicted to opioids. He said he felt really good, um, didn't think much of it, went back and got one the next day. He said within two weeks he was taking eight to 10 a day and that's it. $10 a pop became a very expensive habit for him, and he tried to get off four different times. He said before he finally checked him himself into rehab again. This, this has become an issue, Mr. Speaker. And the reason that, that, especially I think opioid addicts are former opioid addicts are susceptible, is that creto acts on the opioid receptors in the body. It creates a dependence, meaning that at a certain point you need more and more to get that same feeling. Many in the Senate and the House have been working on this issue, and we've had many conversations with experts including U daf toxicologists poison control. They've confirmed that this is a problem and that this story is not unique. Since 2019, there have been nearly 200 Kratom related deaths in the state with approximately 15 of them involving krato mal alone with no other substances detected. And even more concerning is about half of those ones were between January 20, 24 and June of 2025. Raum is widely accessible in Utah since 2019 when the Kram Consumer Act or Consumer Protection bill was passed here in this body, and it was passed with only two, uh, with 39 votes, only two votes more than, than was needed to pass. Again, Kratom, in fact, does act on the opioid receptors in the body, and we have heard testimony from people who say that the natural creth of LA Natural Leaf Kratom has helped them get off of opioids. There's a reason for that. It's because it acts on the opioid receptors. So when people say it's not an opioid, it's just not true. Um, most of the products currently on the market are CRE extracts rather than these natural leaf products. And the extracts are, can be increased in potency, um, and increased the, the risks of addiction and overdose and serious adverse health effects. For this reason, the bill focuses on restricting the manufacturing of an extracted and adulterated CRE products while still allowing access to that na natural crem leaf. So what the bill does is it's, it's, um, schedules seven hydroxy, reine and Mitragynine, pseudo and Doxil as Schedule one substances. It provides an exemption to the scheduling in within, with the form of a natural leaf, pure natural leaf creto, which is a defined term, and among other things, pure Leaf Creto product cannot create, cannot contain a creto extract, can't be mixed with non-REM substance and can't contain 7 0 8 at a level greater than 0.4% of the total CRE alcohol aid composition of the product. The bill requires that a CRE processor and retailer, the ones that will produce the natural leaf raum that they register with the department and allows businesses to register as a RAUM retail if they're also registered as a retail tobacco specialty business. So it can be sold in the tobacco specialty stores. It raises the age for buying it from 18 to 21 and increases some financial and criminal penalties for violations. Again, this bill has been highly, highly and carefully negotiated the, I wanna remind everybody, the original bill of this was an outright ban pe We have come to the table with all of the stakeholders to come up with this, including the last substitution, which would allow for the processors that are here in the state to continue to produce, just not sell here in Utah, but they can sell out in other states for a period of one year. And that was highly negotiated. Um, I've already mentioned, um, earlier all the organizations that are supporting it. Um, I wanna also mention again that, um, one of our representatives sent out to everyone a couple of weeks ago how the under Secretary of Defense and the military has banned Kratom for across the military. Raum products are not regulated by the FDA and and they have banned them for all the military. And I wanna note that they have not banned cigarettes. They have not banned alcohol, but they have banned kra. Um, I know this is a, I know this is a sensitive subject and I know there's a lot of, um, debate and, and conversations about it, and that is the bill. If anyone has any questions, I'm happy to answer them. Thanks.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. So I think this time I got it ready. Um, I'd like to move First Amendment on the fourth substitute in my name.

Yeah. So as I've mentioned before, um, this, this, uh, amendment allows manufacturing to continue past the, the March 6th, 2027 date. Um, but it does not allow for raum to be sold in, in retail stores, uh, outside of what the, the Good sponsor has, has outlined in her four substitute. So, um, all it does is allow manufacturing to continue, um, in the state, um, for an indefinite period of time just by way of information for the body. We do have 49 manufacturers of created 'em in the state. That's tens of millions of dollars invested in, in facilities, uh, with long-term leases that they've, uh, they've garnered because of the Crate and Protection Act. Uh, in 2019. That's tens of thousands of jobs. It's a half a billion dollars in annual revenue to this, uh, to, uh, the businesses in the state. And some of these businesses only manufacture Crate as part of their, their, um, their business. They're, they do other supplements, but in, in, uh, restricting krato, uh, if this passes the whole operation that they have, we'll probably need to move to other states. And so, um, I'm mindful of, uh, what Kratom does. Um, and I'm mindful of the impact that it has on individual lives, which is why I applaud the efforts of the, of the sponsor to restrict retail distribution, um, to certain locations. But I think, um, manufacturing K*m, uh, to be sold in other states and other countries, um, because that's what their laws say. Um, it's, it's, uh, it's businesses, it's families, it's uh, it's taxpayers that we're, uh, putting under the, um, under this restriction if we, if we don't pass this amendment.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Um, Oh, I apologize. Uh, I need to go back to the underline, uh, bill sponsor before I go to discussion Representative Hall on the motion to amend, uh, uh, adopt amendment number one under Representative Hawkins name.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Um, while I appreciate the, the good sponsor from the Utah County, um, I would ask that, that we not support this amendment.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Um, I have, uh, screenshots of one of these products manufactured in Utah that is for cell. Uh, these products come with a disclaimer that clearly state that they're not regulated by the FDA as being fit for human consumption. Um, and if, if that's okay with the speaker, there is a section I would like to read and I, and I ask permission because it's just me summarizing it isn't going to get the full effect across. Yes, that's Go ahead, representative. It says, warning, this is a crem extract, not raw leaf. The matine and other alkaloid content in this product are multiple times greater than that of raw crem leaf, resulting in an increased potency. With this extract product, treat accordingly and proceed with enhanced caution. As with all krems products, do not use them without first consulting with healthcare profess with your healthcare professional using metra, speciosa can be dangerous. There have been reports of adverse health, a effects associated with using Kratom products. Some publications have suggested Kratom may be associated with serious potential side effects, and that it includes a list of those potential side effects. Uh, colleagues, I, I would urge opposition to this amendment. Um, if they're putting disclaimers and warnings on there, I, I think it's something that we shouldn't be okay with shipping to neighboring states then, you know, I know this is intended for adults, but our kids is getting ahold of it too. So if we're not okay with our kids having access to these products, we shouldn't be okay with kids in Arizona. We shouldn't be okay with kids in Evanston, kids in Wendover. Anyone is going to go across the state line and get these. And just because we're not okay with them doesn't mean that we should be okay shipping them out. And so I would urge opposition on this amendment. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I, I don't like this amendment. Um, for a couple of reasons. Representative Stoddard has already mentioned the ones, my primary ones, but I did want to add that part of this has been a discussion about give and take, give and take, allowing them to continue to produce for a year and allowing them to continue to market hold crem. Originally there was not supposed to be any crem sold in the state of Utah. There's been a lot of give and take going on here, and this is too much give with not enough take. So if the amendment had said, okay, that's fine, we're gonna have a complete ban in the state of Utah, that maybe that's a little bit of a give, but that's just not the right policy. The right policy is what my colleague from Salt Lake County mentioned, which is we allow them for a period of time to figure out their business model, decide how they're gonna adjust, but they're not gonna be producing something that we as a legislature determine is harmful to children. And we're not just, we're not gonna let 'em make that here. We just, we would rather forego the revenue. Those are not good jobs. This is not something we want people engaged in our state. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Yeah, thank you. Um, I also am in opposition. I circled it originally thinking, uh, not quite understanding as I looked into it in the last few minutes and over the last year or so. Um, I, I don't like the product. In fact, after learning a little more about it, I reached out to my children. I have one in particular that goes to health food stores and works out and, and I said, Hey, hey, have you used this product? And he goes, no, dad, never. And I was so grateful to hear that. So I'm, I'm opposed to the, uh, the amendment and in favor of the underlying bill. Thank you.

Ms. Thank you, Mr. Speaker call The question,

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Um, I appreciate the discussion that's been, uh, had here. I would want to point out to my colleagues, uh, Mr. Speaker, that we have substances that we allow to be sold in our state that have FDA warnings, uh, that kill a lot more people than Kratom does. Um, and we still allow them to be sold in, uh, specific places thinking of alcohol, thinking of tobacco. Um, this is just, uh, you know, I understand that the effort of, of trying to protect our, our citizens, but I also think that if we're gonna look at one specific, uh, uh, substance, we probably ought to take a look at, uh, all the substances and treat them the same way. So, thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Motion to adopt fifth substitute.

You know, I would. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. So there's been a great amount of discussion here about, uh, the dangers of, uh, Kratom. For example, the number of, uh, deaths, um, you knowumm has been sold in this state since 20, I think 14 before it was regulated. We started regulating it in 2019, and as the good sponsor pointed out, most of the deaths from that, uh, from Raum only, have only occurred recently, mostly due to the synthetic, um, uh, 7 0 8 that has been, uh, proliferated and is it's bad stuff. We need to get rid of it. I'd also like to point out that, uh, in this state, um, in a far greater degree, we have massive numbers of individuals that say in this state, that consume alcohol. Um, I think about a quarter of the state of Utah consumes alcohol and the number of deaths related to alcohol far exceed, um, the deaths in, uh, Kratom. It's a very, uh, enticing product to minors as well. And it's been a big problem. And in fact, it contributes to many of our road accidents, um, estimated that 30% of all of our violent crime comes from alcohol consumption. Um, also estimated when you look at the homicides, suicides, domestic violence, child abuse, and the amount of those cases and include alcohol consumption, uh, I think we can all agree that this is a, a significant public health risk. Same as well, when you look at tobacco, tobacco users in the state, dwarf the number of Creto users in the, uh, current fatality rate in the state of Utah, we're think we're seeing about 1300 deaths a year, uh, in Utah from, um, tobacco use. And so what I think has become apparent to me at least, is that, uh, one of the roles of the legislature is that we, um, that we, um, impose moral health codes upon the citizens of Utah. So rather than taking small little bites at this and kind of playing whack-a-mole and every new product that comes on the market, I just assumed we would just go all the way and, uh, put into effect a health code that's already been adopted, uh, you know, in vast areas of, of Utah. Um, and, you know, you know, it, it really just impart the wisdom of the legislature, uh, uh, upon the, the masses, uh, on the streets that just don't have the same moral clarity we do. And so with that, I'm open to any questions.

Uh, thank you Mr. Speaker. I, while I really do love the representative from this West Valley area, um, and I appreciate the, the lightheartedness of this, um, to me, I'm sorry this isn't a lighthearted issue, um, until you've had to see opioid addicts at work and how their addiction affects everything in their lives, including the pain control that they have when they're going into surgery, including the, the withdrawals that they have, including having to be on other opioid drugs to stop the pain that's happening when they're addicted. I don't think you understand it. It's different than alcohol, it's different than tobacco. It's an opioid. I fully reject this. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Um, I wasn't going to speak twice on issues around this bill today, so I appreciate your patience from a population health perspective. And, and for context, I have spent much of my career in this area, and that has to do with risk as a whole population. And the significant issue that is left out of the, the sponsors present, the subs sponsors presentation is the significance of a denominator in these equation, in these equations in the aggregate, yes, alcohol harms that is well known in the aggregate tobacco harms that is well known. And for the record, if we wanna have a discussion about tobacco and the risks to society, I am here for that conversation. If we wanna have a conversation about alcohol and the risk to society, I am here for that conversation. This is about credo. This is not an issue that should be made in parallel to other dangerous subjects. This all by itself is a dangerous product. We have, as the under the sponsor of the underlying bill said, we have made concessions. We have worked for a year to find a place where we can reasonably expect that people have access to medication that they find beneficial, that we reasonably understand is relatively safe. That does not include extracted products, that does not include compounded products, that does not include adulterated products that are unregulated. This is a compromise, bill. A lot of people have come a long way from where they started on the goals for this. But to misappropriate the conversation and compare it to completely different subjects with completely different understandings about overall risk is makes light of a very, very important discussion. And I too, and I hope you'll agree, fully reject this amendment and the spirit in which it's been brought. Thank you, representative Daley.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I call the question

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I appreciate this conversation. And while I try to be very, um, you know, direct in my presentation, I try to make, uh, no light of the underlying discussion. Um, and I am trying to bring up what I think is a, a good discussion about the, the direction of this legislature, the actions that we've taken in previous years and in this year as well. Um, and I just asked the body one rhetorical question. When we are talking about alcohol and tobacco and other items, we currently, what we do with these products is we regulate and we tax. So I ask the body to ask yourself for far more dangerous products that have far greater effects on the totality of the state. Why is regulation and tax the appropriate, uh, way forward? And why is ban, uh, the way forward on other products? And with that, I conclude,

Uh, thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to rise in support of the bill and, and maybe even take a minute and answer the question because it's, uh, asked by the sponsor of the previous substitute. It's a fair question. Why, why would you regulate this different from other substances? Well, different substances have different properties, and this substance is an opioid. And we do not allow manufacturers outside of a medical setting to produce and sell an opioid in vape shops or really anywhere. We have a different way that we do opioids. And there are no opioids allowed to be produced outside of, uh, medical guidelines right now because of how dangerous they are and how addicting they are. I'm just gonna echo kind of, it's the same story, right? It was too weak that kind of told by Representative Hall, uh, being by the goods bill sponsor rather. Um, about two weeks before the session I visited, uh, with an individual who had a long history of opioid addiction. And to his credit, he had gone through rehab several times and gotten to an point where he was back now off of opioids. He went through, or four years he was functioning, and then he saw a natural product advertised that it would help his anxiety, and it was at the gas station for him as well. And he, he bought it. And that went on for a couple of months. And, and before too long, he was no longer able to go to work. He lost his job again. And at the time I visited with him, he was spending a hundred dollars a day. He said, well, I'm okay for right now because I have some inheritance money, but I'm really worried what I'm gonna do when that runs out in a couple of months. I mean, his life was back on the verge of falling apart, be because this was available to him and presented to him as a thing that you could easily get. And he and all of his previous efforts kind of had been, um, undone by it. Um, I think historical context for, we, we, we've gone through this discussion before, it was just 150 years ago, 150 years ago, we had a real problem. People used opium and everybody knew you got opium withdrawal, and what were we gonna do about that? And we came up with a couple of solutions for, at first we tried to said we got a new substance. It can treat, it can treat opium withdrawal, except that it was morphine. And at first that seemed like a good idea, but then before very long, we realized that it morphine came from the natural opium. It was in there, but you could magnify it up to higher levels. And when you did, then it was even more addicting. And so we went through that for a couple of decades, and then we had it happen again. There was another product that came along and said, Hey, we, we can treat morphine addiction and this will treat morphine addiction and it will be better. And it was heroin. We sold heroin over the counter for two or three decades here in the United States. Uh, and heroin occurs in opium. It's a natural product, but when you amplify it up, um, it, it is where it doesn't have a medical purpose and it damages people. Um, and, you know, the private market is faster than government so people can figure out how to make these other addicting things, uh, that damage folks. Um, but, but when they do, it is incumbent on us to make rules about it so that our constituents aren't damaged, so that people can go through their lives without accidentally picking something up on a off a shelf that does take away their free agency. They can't, you, once you're stuck on it, you do not have a choice about whether or not to use it, or at least if you need to go through the day without a splitting headache, without horrible anxiety, without all your energy suck out of you without nausea and vomiting. If you want to go through your day without those things, then you don't have a choice. You need to go buy it and use more once you get stuck on it. So I think the bill is a move in a good direction, and I hope you'll support it.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker with the sponsor yield to a series of questions. Representative Hall, will you yield to a series of questions?

Yes, yes, representative.

Thank you. Uh, Mr. Speaker, um, do we know how many items have raum have been sold since the year 2020 in the state of Utah, or roughly how many?

Uh, thank you for the question. Mr. Speaker. Uh, cannot say how many items, sorry, That number is around 33 million. Uh, Mr. Speaker, do we know how many deaths are directly attributed to Krato since 2020 in the state of Utah? Uh, thank you. Thank you for the question. Yes, I believe I said that in my opening that there has been, uh, about 200 since 2019 deaths. And unfortunately, while we are tracking the deaths, we are not tracking all of the addiction.

Uh, thank you, Mr. Speaker. Uh, were all of those deaths from Kratom only kra, or were there other underlying issues that were also part of the reason for those deaths?

Thank you for the question. As I said in my, um, explanation at the beginning, about 15 of the deaths were kratom alone. And again, that does not constitute any that were started with Kratom, where they had an addiction and then they went onto something else like fentanyl.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. One more question. Is there, or are there any good uses for Kratom? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Um, as we've discussed, there have been some people who have said that the natural Leaf Kratom has, has potentially helped them get off of, of opioid use, um, in some cases. Um, so again, that is why in the bill we have created a path for that natural leaf Kratom.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Uh, I, colleagues, I I, I look at this bill as the clear result of the big hand of government in an industry that is not even remotely close to other products that are out there on the shelves that we have chosen to tax and regulate and have hundreds, if not thousands of deaths every single year. And it looks like we are picking on an industry that has sold over 33 million products in the last five years. And we clearly understand at this point what the underlying problem is. It is not krem, it is 7 0 8, it is the synthetic version that is the issue. And I'm not aware of anything else where we say, Hey, we know what the issue is, so we're just gonna get rid of anything that has to do with this instead of the actual problem. And I believe it is unfair to the producers of this, it is unfair to the manufacturers, and I don't believe they're getting a fair shake and, and spot as it pertains to, uh, what are the good outcomes of this. While we are simultaneously regulating other things that actually kill people by the thousands every single year in our state. And so with that, um, this is not a bill that I can support. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker call the question.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Again, I appreciate all the comments that people have said. And again, this represents a balanced approach that focuses on public safety. Make no mistake that Kratom is just another part of the wave of the opioid crisis that we've been seeing over the past however long, even 150 years as we heard from one representative. Um, and recently there has been big, huge settlements over the opioid crisis with, with regards to Oxycontin and other things. And again, this is just another thing that people are getting addicted to, that it is time that we take a step. The good Senate sponsor said that this is one of the votes that he re regrets from six years ago. And, and I think, I think there are many in this body that would like to change their vote on that as well. So I would ask for your support in this bill. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Motion to adopt fifth substitute.

You know, I would. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. So there's been a great amount of discussion here about, uh, the dangers of, uh, Kratom. For example, the number of, uh, deaths, um, you knowumm has been sold in this state since 20, I think 14 before it was regulated. We started regulating it in 2019, and as the good sponsor pointed out, most of the deaths from that, uh, from Raum only, have only occurred recently, mostly due to the synthetic, um, uh, 7 0 8 that has been, uh, proliferated and is it's bad stuff. We need to get rid of it. I'd also like to point out that, uh, in this state, um, in a far greater degree, we have massive numbers of individuals that say in this state, that consume alcohol. Um, I think about a quarter of the state of Utah consumes alcohol and the number of deaths related to alcohol far exceed, um, the deaths in, uh, Kratom. It's a very, uh, enticing product to minors as well. And it's been a big problem. And in fact, it contributes to many of our road accidents, um, estimated that 30% of all of our violent crime comes from alcohol consumption. Um, also estimated when you look at the homicides, suicides, domestic violence, child abuse, and the amount of those cases and include alcohol consumption, uh, I think we can all agree that this is a, a significant public health risk. Same as well, when you look at tobacco, tobacco users in the state, dwarf the number of Creto users in the, uh, current fatality rate in the state of Utah, we're think we're seeing about 1300 deaths a year, uh, in Utah from, um, tobacco use. And so what I think has become apparent to me at least, is that, uh, one of the roles of the legislature is that we, um, that we, um, impose moral health codes upon the citizens of Utah. So rather than taking small little bites at this and kind of playing whack-a-mole and every new product that comes on the market, I just assumed we would just go all the way and, uh, put into effect a health code that's already been adopted, uh, you know, in vast areas of, of Utah. Um, and, you know, you know, it, it really just impart the wisdom of the legislature, uh, uh, upon the, the masses, uh, on the streets that just don't have the same moral clarity we do. And so with that, I'm open to any questions.

Uh, thank you Mr. Speaker. I, while I really do love the representative from this West Valley area, um, and I appreciate the, the lightheartedness of this, um, to me, I'm sorry this isn't a lighthearted issue, um, until you've had to see opioid addicts at work and how their addiction affects everything in their lives, including the pain control that they have when they're going into surgery, including the, the withdrawals that they have, including having to be on other opioid drugs to stop the pain that's happening when they're addicted. I don't think you understand it. It's different than alcohol, it's different than tobacco. It's an opioid. I fully reject this. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Um, I wasn't going to speak twice on issues around this bill today, so I appreciate your patience from a population health perspective. And, and for context, I have spent much of my career in this area, and that has to do with risk as a whole population. And the significant issue that is left out of the, the sponsors present, the subs sponsors presentation is the significance of a denominator in these equation, in these equations in the aggregate, yes, alcohol harms that is well known in the aggregate tobacco harms that is well known. And for the record, if we wanna have a discussion about tobacco and the risks to society, I am here for that conversation. If we wanna have a conversation about alcohol and the risk to society, I am here for that conversation. This is about credo. This is not an issue that should be made in parallel to other dangerous subjects. This all by itself is a dangerous product. We have, as the under the sponsor of the underlying bill said, we have made concessions. We have worked for a year to find a place where we can reasonably expect that people have access to medication that they find beneficial, that we reasonably understand is relatively safe. That does not include extracted products, that does not include compounded products, that does not include adulterated products that are unregulated. This is a compromise, bill. A lot of people have come a long way from where they started on the goals for this. But to misappropriate the conversation and compare it to completely different subjects with completely different understandings about overall risk is makes light of a very, very important discussion. And I too, and I hope you'll agree, fully reject this amendment and the spirit in which it's been brought.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I call the question

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I appreciate this conversation. And while I try to be very, um, you know, direct in my presentation, I try to make, uh, no light of the underlying discussion. Um, and I am trying to bring up what I think is a, a good discussion about the, the direction of this legislature, the actions that we've taken in previous years and in this year as well. Um, and I just asked the body one rhetorical question. When we are talking about alcohol and tobacco and other items, we currently, what we do with these products is we regulate and we tax. So I ask the body to ask yourself for far more dangerous products that have far greater effects on the totality of the state. Why is regulation and tax the appropriate, uh, way forward? And why is ban, uh, the way forward on other products? And with that, I conclude,

Uh, thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to rise in support of the bill and, and maybe even take a minute and answer the question because it's, uh, asked by the sponsor of the previous substitute. It's a fair question. Why, why would you regulate this different from other substances? Well, different substances have different properties, and this substance is an opioid. And we do not allow manufacturers outside of a medical setting to produce and sell an opioid in vape shops or really anywhere. We have a different way that we do opioids. And there are no opioids allowed to be produced outside of, uh, medical guidelines right now because of how dangerous they are and how addicting they are. I'm just gonna echo kind of, it's the same story, right? It was too weak that kind of told by Representative Hall, uh, being by the goods bill sponsor rather. Um, about two weeks before the session I visited, uh, with an individual who had a long history of opioid addiction. And to his credit, he had gone through rehab several times and gotten to an point where he was back now off of opioids. He went through, or four years he was functioning, and then he saw a natural product advertised that it would help his anxiety, and it was at the gas station for him as well. And he, he bought it. And that went on for a couple of months. And, and before too long, he was no longer able to go to work. He lost his job again. And at the time I visited with him, he was spending a hundred dollars a day. He said, well, I'm okay for right now because I have some inheritance money, but I'm really worried what I'm gonna do when that runs out in a couple of months. I mean, his life was back on the verge of falling apart, be because this was available to him and presented to him as a thing that you could easily get. And he and all of his previous efforts kind of had been, um, undone by it. Um, I think historical context for, we, we, we've gone through this discussion before, it was just 150 years ago, 150 years ago, we had a real problem. People used opium and everybody knew you got opium withdrawal, and what were we gonna do about that? And we came up with a couple of solutions for, at first we tried to said we got a new substance. It can treat, it can treat opium withdrawal, except that it was morphine. And at first that seemed like a good idea, but then before very long, we realized that it morphine came from the natural opium. It was in there, but you could magnify it up to higher levels. And when you did, then it was even more addicting. And so we went through that for a couple of decades, and then we had it happen again. There was another product that came along and said, Hey, we, we can treat morphine addiction and this will treat morphine addiction and it will be better. And it was heroin. We sold heroin over the counter for two or three decades here in the United States. Uh, and heroin occurs in opium. It's a natural product, but when you amplify it up, um, it, it is where it doesn't have a medical purpose and it damages people. Um, and, you know, the private market is faster than government so people can figure out how to make these other addicting things, uh, that damage folks. Um, but, but when they do, it is incumbent on us to make rules about it so that our constituents aren't damaged, so that people can go through their lives without accidentally picking something up on a off a shelf that does take away their free agency. They can't, you, once you're stuck on it, you do not have a choice about whether or not to use it, or at least if you need to go through the day without a splitting headache, without horrible anxiety, without all your energy suck out of you without nausea and vomiting. If you want to go through your day without those things, then you don't have a choice. You need to go buy it and use more once you get stuck on it. So I think the bill is a move in a good direction, and I hope you'll support it.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker with the sponsor yield to a series of questions. Representative Hall, will you yield to a series of questions?

Yes, yes, representative.

Thank you. Uh, Mr. Speaker, um, do we know how many items have raum have been sold since the year 2020 in the state of Utah, or roughly how many?

Uh, thank you for the question. Mr. Speaker. Uh, cannot say how many items, sorry, That number is around 33 million.

Uh, Mr. Speaker, do we know how many deaths are directly attributed to Krato since 2020 in the state of Utah?

Uh, thank you. Thank you for the question. Yes, I believe I said that in my opening that there has been, uh, about 200 since 2019 deaths. And unfortunately, while we are tracking the deaths, we are not tracking all of the addiction.

Uh, thank you, Mr. Speaker. Uh, were all of those deaths from Kratom only kra, or were there other underlying issues that were also part of the reason for those deaths?

Thank you for the question. As I said in my, um, explanation at the beginning, about 15 of the deaths were kratom alone. And again, that does not constitute any that were started with Kratom, where they had an addiction and then they went onto something else like fentanyl.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. One more question. Is there, or are there any good uses for Kratom? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Um, as we've discussed, there have been some people who have said that the natural Leaf Kratom has, has potentially helped them get off of, of opioid use, um, in some cases. Um, so again, that is why in the bill we have created a path for that natural leaf Kratom. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Uh, I, colleagues, I I, I look at this bill as the clear result of the big hand of government in an industry that is not even remotely close to other products that are out there on the shelves that we have chosen to tax and regulate and have hundreds, if not thousands of deaths every single year. And it looks like we are picking on an industry that has sold over 33 million products in the last five years. And we clearly understand at this point what the underlying problem is. It is not krem, it is 7 0 8, it is the synthetic version that is the issue. And I'm not aware of anything else where we say, Hey, we know what the issue is, so we're just gonna get rid of anything that has to do with this instead of the actual problem. And I believe it is unfair to the producers of this, it is unfair to the manufacturers, and I don't believe they're getting a fair shake and, and spot as it pertains to, uh, what are the good outcomes of this. While we are simultaneously regulating other things that actually kill people by the thousands every single year in our state. And so with that, um, this is not a bill that I can support. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Again, I appreciate all the comments that people have said. And again, this represents a balanced approach that focuses on public safety. Make no mistake that Kratom is just another part of the wave of the opioid crisis that we've been seeing over the past however long, even 150 years as we heard from one representative. Um, and recently there has been big, huge settlements over the opioid crisis with, with regards to Oxycontin and other things. And again, this is just another thing that people are getting addicted to, that it is time that we take a step. The good Senate sponsor said that this is one of the votes that he re regrets from six years ago. And, and I think, I think there are many in this body that would like to change their vote on that as well. So I would ask for your support in this bill. Thank you.

Uh, thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to rise in support of the bill and, and maybe even take a minute and answer the question because it's, uh, asked by the sponsor of the previous substitute. It's a fair question. Why, why would you regulate this different from other substances? Well, different substances have different properties, and this substance is an opioid. And we do not allow manufacturers outside of a medical setting to produce and sell an opioid in vape shops or really anywhere. We have a different way that we do opioids. And there are no opioids allowed to be produced outside of, uh, medical guidelines right now because of how dangerous they are and how addicting they are. I'm just gonna echo kind of, it's the same story, right? It was too weak that kind of told by Representative Hall, uh, being by the goods bill sponsor rather. Um, about two weeks before the session I visited, uh, with an individual who had a long history of opioid addiction. And to his credit, he had gone through rehab several times and gotten to an point where he was back now off of opioids. He went through, or four years he was functioning, and then he saw a natural product advertised that it would help his anxiety, and it was at the gas station for him as well. And he, he bought it. And that went on for a couple of months. And, and before too long, he was no longer able to go to work. He lost his job again. And at the time I visited with him, he was spending a hundred dollars a day. He said, well, I'm okay for right now because I have some inheritance money, but I'm really worried what I'm gonna do when that runs out in a couple of months. I mean, his life was back on the verge of falling apart, be because this was available to him and presented to him as a thing that you could easily get. And he and all of his previous efforts kind of had been, um, undone by it. Um, I think historical context for, we, we, we've gone through this discussion before, it was just 150 years ago, 150 years ago, we had a real problem. People used opium and everybody knew you got opium withdrawal, and what were we gonna do about that? And we came up with a couple of solutions for, at first we tried to said we got a new substance. It can treat, it can treat opium withdrawal, except that it was morphine. And at first that seemed like a good idea, but then before very long, we realized that it morphine came from the natural opium. It was in there, but you could magnify it up to higher levels. And when you did, then it was even more addicting. And so we went through that for a couple of decades, and then we had it happen again. There was another product that came along and said, Hey, we, we can treat morphine addiction and this will treat morphine addiction and it will be better. And it was heroin. We sold heroin over the counter for two or three decades here in the United States. Uh, and heroin occurs in opium. It's a natural product, but when you amplify it up, um, it, it is where it doesn't have a medical purpose and it damages people. Um, and, you know, the private market is faster than government so people can figure out how to make these other addicting things, uh, that damage folks. Um, but, but when they do, it is incumbent on us to make rules about it so that our constituents aren't damaged, so that people can go through their lives without accidentally picking something up on a off a shelf that does take away their free agency. They can't, you, once you're stuck on it, you do not have a choice about whether or not to use it, or at least if you need to go through the day without a splitting headache, without horrible anxiety, without all your energy suck out of you without nausea and vomiting. If you want to go through your day without those things, then you don't have a choice. You need to go buy it and use more once you get stuck on it. So I think the bill is a move in a good direction, and I hope you'll support it.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker with the sponsor yield to a series of questions. Representative Hall, will you yield to a series of questions?

Yes, yes, representative.

Thank you. Uh, Mr. Speaker, um, do we know how many items have raum have been sold since the year 2020 in the state of Utah, or roughly how many?

Uh, thank you for the question. Mr. Speaker. Uh, cannot say how many items, sorry, That number is around 33 million.

Uh, Mr. Speaker, do we know how many deaths are directly attributed to Krato since 2020 in the state of Utah?

Uh, thank you. Thank you for the question. Yes, I believe I said that in my opening that there has been, uh, about 200 since 2019 deaths. And unfortunately, while we are tracking the deaths, we are not tracking all of the addiction.

Uh, thank you, Mr. Speaker. Uh, were all of those deaths from Kratom only kra, or were there other underlying issues that were also part of the reason for those deaths?

Thank you for the question. As I said in my, um, explanation at the beginning, about 15 of the deaths were kratom alone. And again, that does not constitute any that were started with Kratom, where they had an addiction and then they went onto something else like fentanyl.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. One more question. Is there, or are there any good uses for Kratom? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Um, as we've discussed, there have been some people who have said that the natural Leaf Kratom has, has potentially helped them get off of, of opioid use, um, in some cases. Um, so again, that is why in the bill we have created a path for that natural leaf Kratom.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Uh, I, colleagues, I I, I look at this bill as the clear result of the big hand of government in an industry that is not even remotely close to other products that are out there on the shelves that we have chosen to tax and regulate and have hundreds, if not thousands of deaths every single year. And it looks like we are picking on an industry that has sold over 33 million products in the last five years. And we clearly understand at this point what the underlying problem is. It is not krem, it is 7 0 8, it is the synthetic version that is the issue. And I'm not aware of anything else where we say, Hey, we know what the issue is, so we're just gonna get rid of anything that has to do with this instead of the actual problem. And I believe it is unfair to the producers of this, it is unfair to the manufacturers, and I don't believe they're getting a fair shake and, and spot as it pertains to, uh, what are the good outcomes of this. While we are simultaneously regulating other things that actually kill people by the thousands every single year in our state. And so with that, um, this is not a bill that I can support. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker call the question.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Again, I appreciate all the comments that people have said. And again, this represents a balanced approach that focuses on public safety. Make no mistake that Kratom is just another part of the wave of the opioid crisis that we've been seeing over the past however long, even 150 years as we heard from one representative. Um, and recently there has been big, huge settlements over the opioid crisis with, with regards to Oxycontin and other things. And again, this is just another thing that people are getting addicted to, that it is time that we take a step. The good Senate sponsor said that this is one of the votes that he re regrets from six years ago. And, and I think, I think there are many in this body that would like to change their vote on that as well. So I would ask for your support in this bill. Thank you.

Senator Fillmore, Mr. President the House, uh, inserted a provision that would, uh, require potty training to enter first grade in and second grade honestly and every grade in the same way that we currently require kindergarten, uh, potty training to enter kindergarten. I move to Concur.