S.B. 86 Firearm Safe Harbor Amendments: transcript

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate that. I apologize that I missed last week's hearing. I was, I was next door, uh, presenting a bill, so, yeah, no worries. Sorry about that. You bet. Well, I appreciate the opportunity. Thanks again for the chair and for the members of this committee. Um, fire Safe, safe Harbor Amendments. We, we have been, we've had a, uh, working group for I think a couple years now, working on what we can do to expand. I think it's a great program where individuals who are having, um, you know, maybe, you know, mental health crisis or haven't felt well, uh, mentally can take their firearms to a local, uh, law enforcement agency. And it's something that, uh, we, we, we've been talking about trying to figure out, number one, how many firearms, uh, how big of a program, who's utilizing it, the best of our ability. This is a very simple bill. It doesn't really change much except, uh, working with law enforcement really appreciate. They've been really, really great partners. Uh, we realize that what we want to try and do with this bill is start collecting information and data, uh, from law enforcement on how many firearms are actually, are, are holding for people. Um, we want to do everything we can to, number one, make sure that people feel, you know, that they can, they can take their firearms to a, to, to somewhere that will be safe, uh, until they're through, whether it's a mental health crisis or just what kind of crisis they may be going through. And then once we receive that data, uh, then that's going to be compiled by CCJJ and then they will be able to provide that information. I believe it's to the, uh, uh, uh, criminal, uh, cj. Yeah. And so, um, and then at that time we'll try and sign, find out if they have, if they need more resources, if they, in fact, we even had one, uh, one agency, uh, in a rural community. And I hope I can, uh, can share this with people. But had around 220 firearms. So this, once we started figuring out, you know, how, how, how this program has been used, uh, we think this has been, uh, a great bill. It also is one other thing. It does, um, I think it's very important. Uh, we started realizing that we needed to clarify the language that the record of which firearms their law enforcement has are not groundable that are private record. 'cause you can imagine if those are groundable and somebody knew that, then we understand the stigma that involves with, unfortunately today in our society with mental health and people are having mental health crisis, even though it affects every family. Uh, so that's kinda what the bill does. And if I can, Mr. Chair, I'd like to, uh, have David Tifo help me. He's here representing law enforcement. He's been just amazing. Wonderful. And again, I appreciate law enforcement's help with this.

Here. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Senator Wilson, thank you for asking, having me here with you. And when you, when you were talking about how wonderful I was wondering who you were speaking about. 'cause no one has ever said that to me in 50 years. Easy way to earn a hundred dollars. Perfect. I won't tell you who paid me. That's Right. Good. Thank you. 'cause you, you know that, that helps. Um, uh, over, uh, this last year, this part of Senator Wilson's working on this issue over the last couple of years, he asked us to try to collect some data, the Police Chiefs Association and oh, David Spa for Utah, chiefs of Police Association representing, uh, the chiefs, also representing the law enforcement legislative committee because we took a position on the bill yesterday. And, and so during, during our, our due diligence, we have 109 police agencies in the state. Uh, we sent out a, an ask, uh, for, uh, information. We heard back from about 30 agencies. And, uh, about two thirds of them have said that they either are safe harboring weapons today or have safe harbor weapons. And, and so as we, as we did some deep diving, we found out, and Senator Wilson did indicate it, that we do have one agency in rural Utah that has more than 200 weapons. And in the last six months, that's grown by 20% that agency. And so, you know, they, they're, they're pun intended, they're under the gun because their storage facility doesn't have enough room for all the weapons. But they know how important this program is for their community. So they, they, they're doing whatever they can, you know, with their, with their storage storage space. But that's why we suggested the two changes that are in this bill. First of all, if someone brings their weapons into a law enforcement, uh, uh, to police agency today, that record is ground marble. And that shouldn't be, that shouldn't happen. The second thing about the anonymized data, right now, if, uh, after the weapon is returned to the individual, that information is, is, uh, is uh, uh, is eliminated, they get rid of it. No, they destroy it. Thank you, Senator. And, and so what that has done is that has, uh, precluded us from getting more data on the program and the effectiveness and the results and everything. So that's why we're saying non non grandma marble on when, when your weapon is brought in. And then secondly, that once you take your weapon back, all the, all the information will be anonymized. Give it to CCJJ and let's have a longitudinal study as to how, as to the program, uh, police chiefs are supportive of this. Yesterday, law enforcement legislative committee took a position unanimously to support it. We encourage that this committee to adopt and move it forward. If I give a, just to make sure that everybody knows that, uh, the only information that CCJJ is numbers, it's not gonna have names or, you know, in any way to identify who, just the number of weapons. And it also has a, um, uh, a Sunset on it. Uh, you know, collect the information for a few years because we, we do know that there was one agency that received some, some grant money from C-C-G-J-J had available. And so, you know, it might be an area we need to expand that, you know, those grant monies a avail. So, like I said, we're just trying to get our arms around it. It's, it's really a, I think it's something that, uh, is, is very needful, especially with, with what's going on, um, with, with mental health crisis in the state. So I'd love to have your support.

Um, I would just, uh, off the top, I, uh, some of us here represent many, uh, counties and areas of rural Utah and saying, you know, the capacity of 200 plus weapons, I, we could probably each name a thousand of people. That that could be one person, you know, you Utah would like, could have a lot of weapons. One, so one person could turn in that many. And obviously that would overwhelm the, the storage capacity of one system.

Yeah, I'll, I'll move to favorably recommend SB 86 firearm safe Harbor Amendments to the full Senate.

Thank you Chair. Appreciate It. Yep. We'll move that on for you. Thanks.

Thank you, uh, Mr. Vice Chair. I appreciate that. I appreciate coming to the History committee today. Uh, I'm back to reminiscing what I was doing on the back in, uh, 1976 also. So it was great. Appreciate that. Thank you. Um, yeah, SB 86, Ophir Safe Harbor Summary. Lemme give you a little bit of background. First of all, we've been working on a, we've had a, uh, working group for, I dunno, a couple years or so. A number of, of stakeholders have got together to see what we can do to try and, number one, help people be aware. The Safe Harbor, um, uh, program is basically that somebody in a household, if they're having a mental health crisis or somebody in their home, they can voluntarily take their firearms to a, a local law enforcement agency. The law enforcement agency will hold onto those firearms until they feel their, their, uh, mental health crisis is, is over with. Now, the record that the law enforcement, um, agency has there, there's a little bit of questionable, whether it's a, a public or a private, um, record. This bill will clarify that it is a pub is a private record and is not groundable. So that's one thing that Bill does. We, we also, uh, as we were in this working group, we're trying to get our, our arms around how much, how many firearms are being held at law enforcement agencies throughout the state. We have some information, we have some data. Um, I, I think it's a great program and we want to do everything we can to try and help support it. And some of the, the other agencies that are, you know, some of them are the Utah Chiefs Association, the Utah Department of Public Safety in Commission on Criminal and Juvenile Justice, CCJJ have been on this working group. And I appreciate Dave's Dave's Stata for being here with me today. And, and I'll let him talk briefly after, after my presentation. Uh, what this bill does is we're trying to collect data on how many firearms are out through the state. We've got reports of a one rural law enforcement agency that currently has over 220 firearms in a rural setting. So, um, what we're this bill does is this will have the firearms collect data, and obviously that's just on the firearms. 'cause we know that it's a, it's a private record. Uh, by, by the way, once that individual picks up their firearm from the law enforcement agency, that record is destroyed. Um, they'll report back to the CCJJ and then they will receive and compile, uh, the data received from the law enforcement agencies. And then they will come and report to the law enforcement Criminal Justice Interim Committee. And so that's really what the, the bill does. Uh, it makes sure that it's a private record. It also, we're gonna collect data so we have an idea how many firearms, uh, Arthur are out in the state, and what we can do, number one, to promote this program. Uh, so people are aware that they have somewhere they can take their firearms for safekeeping. And, um, again, also, um, collect the data and what we can do to try and promote this, let people be aware of it. And also, if there's some grant programs, I know there's some grant programs already currently, um, but we can help with some of these smaller law enforcement agencies that may not have the capacity for 220 firearms or how many there have. So we're just trying to get our arms around this. And I'd like to turn some time over if you can, Mr. Vice-Chair to, uh, Dave Tifo.

Welcome. Go ahead Dave. Uh, uh, thank you. Senator Wilson. Um, Mr. Vice-Chair, thank you very much. Uh, following the theme of this meeting today, uh, 50 years ago was my second legislative session that I was working. So you guys are all young kids, But any, anyway, uh, please introduce yourself. David Sp for speaking for the, uh, Utah Chiefs of Police Association and the, the Silver-Haired Caucus of Law Enforcement. Um, Senator Wilson came to us last year and, and we wanted to work very, very closely with him because our primary mission, as all of you know, in your communities, law enforcement, is to protect the public safety. And, and that's that's not only just to respond to crimes, respond to incidents, but also to, to serve and protect. And so, uh, we, uh, we surveyed, uh, our, our, our, our local chiefs, and we had more than a third respond, which is actually pretty good for us. And of the, of the 30 some odd agencies that responded, two thirds of them have in their last 10 years safe harbored weapons, uh, that not all of those have weapons today, but they had safe harbored them. Uh, and, and, and as, uh, Senator Wilson indicated, we have one rural police department that last fall had had 190 weapons, and now they're up to 230. And, and so that agency has gone, uh, way and above, you know, to protect their community and rep and, and protect the families within their community. Uh, and, uh, and doing this work, we found two things. First of all, until May 6th, if you pass the bill, uh, anybody who wants to go in and grandma the records, can get the records of whose weapons the law enforcement is holding. That's, that, that should not happen. And so that's why this, uh, this bill changed it to a protected record. Secondly, currently after the weapon is picked up, then, then, uh, uh, those records are supposed to be destroyed. And they are, but memories aren't destroyed. And that's how some of the chiefs responded. And that's why we want to keep the records, not of who the individuals are, but just what, what was the reason? Who turned, you know, what fam Was it the individual? Was it the family member? You know, so we can, we can get some longitudinal data to make decisions on this. We also sub after the bill's been drafted, have a couple of other issues. Some agencies are so concerned about their community after a certain period of time, they can get rid of the weapons, but they don't because they don't know if the individuals are coming are gonna come back for them. And so, down the road, what we wanna do when we get some more complete records is what is the best way? When can those weapons be, uh, uh, sold or eliminated or whatever, whatever, whatever you want to do as a policy, how best to do that and, and how long after the weapons have been been stored. So this is the first step, but the most important thing to this bill is protect the privacy of the individuals that are having the behavioral health crisis and their families. And then get longitudinal data to make the program better and, and, and provide our community become more safe. Thank you, Mr. Vice Chair.

Thank you. I think that'll conclude our presentation. Great. Thank you. Happy to answer any questions.

Chair. Uh, I, I like the direction this is going. I just have a couple questions that came to mind. I don't know that it, uh, changes my opinion of it, but what happens if a gun is turned in? This is pretty much a voluntary thing where somebody brings it in. What if that gun is not registered? Or what if that gun happens to be stolen? Uh, what happens from that point? That Yeah, if you, I don't have an absolute answer to your question, but, but word of mouth from some chiefs, they don't ask questions. Uh, because the policy of the state is you accept the weapon and you hold it. So we don't question where they got it. We don't question look at the serial number. We just protect the individual and their family. Okay. It, it is good. It is just exploring an idea. But, uh, yeah, I, I like that because people need to feel like they can, they can bring it in, drop it off, and be safe until they're comfortable coming back. Thank you. Thanks for the bill. All right.

Thank you, Mr. Vice Chair. Uh, did you mention something about storage? I mean, there's a rural county that had a hundred and what'd you

Say? There is a rural agency, uh, that, that, uh, as of whenever we ran the bill and the Senate committee was up to almost 230 weapons, they're storing Where they store all. Uh, That's the problem. That's the problem. Um, and this agency is, is storing weapons for more than just its own agency, because sister agencies in the surrounding area do not have a stor, uh, do not have the protected storage area. 'cause it has to be under, under surveillance, has to be protected, has to be locked, has to be kept secure. And so this agency has stepped up and, and, and, and, and, and protecting, you know, uh, holding the, the weapons. CCJJ gave them a grant of, I'm gonna get, I'm gonna estimate about $80,000 a year ago to improve their storage facility because of what they're doing for their community. Still not enough, you know? And so down the road, we may want to take a look at how best, particularly in rural Utah, you know, uh, some of our larger agencies have the, have the storage capability. That's easy. Some of our small rural areas don't, but that doesn't mean we, we want, we, it doesn't mean we don't want to protect the safety of our, of our constituents. So yes, the weapons are kept stor, uh, are kept safe. Representative Albrecht, they're, they're kept secure. And, and that's one of the agencies that that could, could, if there's a, if there's a, a grandfathering of how long you keep the weapons. They've had some of these weapons for more than 10 years. But knowing that community the way I do, that doesn't mean those weapons aren't gonna be asked for at a certain period of time. If that makes sense. Yeah.

Thank you. Uh, I like the bill. I, I think it's a, it's a good thing considering where we're at in society.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, this is fascinating to me. I've never heard of, heard of this situation. And, um, I just have a co couple questions if I may. I'm not sure you can answer them, but, so with this Safe Harbor program, it's typically a family member that takes the weapon from another family member, correct?

Not necessarily. I'm sorry. Is that Mr. Chair?

No. Um, not necessarily. Uh, there are weapons where the individual brings them in himself or herself. Right? They, they, they, they understand there's a situation that they're going through and they know they're at crisis. So it's, it could be an individual, could be a family member, it could be a family member that, that's residing in the house, a family member that's not residing in the house. But anyone who cares for that individual and, and realizes there is a, a situation that needs to be, um, under control.

Okay. Thank you. And then, um, the next question I have is, so let's say a person's family member takes the weapon in, then the person that's going through this mental health crisis knows that they've take, they could just go ask for it back. I mean, what if they're still, who makes a determination that that person is now well enough to have his weapon back back? Or does anybody do that?

That's why we need to get long, uh, get longitudinal data. Mm-hmm. Because once the weapon gets, gets returned, all, all the information is, has been, is, is, is eliminated. Uh, typically what would happen is if, if a spouse brings a weapon in the individual wants to get it back, law enforcement will give it back to him because it's his weapon. But they will make sure that the family still feels protected in some fashion. But, but we don't know. We can't tell you because we're not supposed to keep the records after the weapon is returned. Uh, all, all of the various intricacies to what that return looked like. Mm-hmm.

Well, I think this is well worth studying. It really is. Thank you. Great. Bill by a great senator. I can see that.

Uh, Willis Lafe you in county, uh, for myself. Um, anesthesia's tough. I can't hardly remember yesterday. Anyway, um, to this, speaking to this, uh, question. Uh, I, I like the bill. Thank you. Uh, mental health is a, is a real challenge in the event. It's, it's brought in by an individual. Um, and the circumstances, they never make it back. Um, heirlooms, antiques, you know, those kinds of things. Uh, do you designate that? Can they designate that to someone to pick it up in the event that they, um, are unable to return? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Vice-Chair. I would make a motion that we pass out SB 86 firearm safe Harbor Amendments with a favorable recommendation. Thank

Yeah, I would. I think, I think this is, I think this is a good idea. I, I like it. I, I am acquainted with a family member of mine who, uh, ended up with bone cancer and it was extremely painful and I was outta the country when it happened. And so I called his son and I says, you need to go get your dad's firearms out of the house. And his son told me, he already asked me to do that. So when you talk about mental health crisis, sometimes you can just be in so much pain that it's not worth it. But because the safe harbor was with his son, you know, when he passed away a few weeks later, um, you know, those heirloom firearms were distributed around the family. But this is for cases where maybe there's not a sun handy to come take possession of those. So anyway, I support the bill.

Yeah, just, uh, I support, uh, the motion, but I, uh, the, the commissioner brought up a good point is, uh, in many of our families, I'd have to say with mine, you know, some of these, uh, firearms are like heirlooms in the family. I have firearms that have come from my, uh, grand, my grandfather that I was instructed when I got them. These are always supposed to stay in the family. Don't you ever get rid of them? And so I think it would be very wise to somehow figure out a way that those could be identified so that, you know, if something happens and they don't have at least some family can get those. 'cause they're pretty valuable as far as heirlooms are concerned.

If I could. Mr. Vice? Yeah, I'd like to have, uh, uh, Dave, uh, mentioned, uh, you know what he, what was told commissioner, is that what he said?

Uh, thank you, Senator. Thank you, Mr. Vice Chair. Uh, word of mouth, because we're not supposed to keep records. Uh, we've heard of a couple of situations like the heirloom weapon, like what you were talking about, Representative Shipp. And because in it's, particularly in the smaller communities, everybody knows who everyone is. When the individual who, who either brought the weapons in or the weapons were brought in to protect that individual, when that individual has passed away, the heirloom weapons or, or any weapon is offered back to the family. And, and so that go, it goes back. And we make sure that, because that's what we want the weapons to do, you know, we don't want to keep them, we don't want to, we don't want to, you know, keep them in perpetuity. We want to make sure they're brought back to the people that, that, that, that own them, that deserve them. If I can finish some appreciate. Yeah, good comment. And this is something we've been working on except for a couple years. So these are some of the questions that we were looking in for policy. You know, how long should they keep 'em, you know, how, how, how hard should they look to try and return their weapons, which we obviously know they should, but I think the main thing is, is, is I think it gives us an idea. Even many members here of this committee weren't aware of this program. And so I think we need to do a better job letting people know that this is an, an option for people, that they can take 'em in, you know, to a, to a law enforcement agency and, and hold them during this time. So that's kind of what we wanna do, is we, we wanna try and, uh, make sure people are aware of it and, and I'm sure we'll have another bill next year. We'll continue to work on it, how we can make it better, more accessible from people, and that, that they feel, um, you know, we still think there's a little bit of maybe a stigma involved with somebody, Hey, I gotta take my weapons into the law enforcement. If you've had a history with him, you may not want to do that. I don't know. But we've looked at federal firearms as a possibility, some other things that we've just started to look at a little bit. So I appreciate the support. I think it's a great bill, looking forward to try and get that information that we can move on from there. Thank you so much. Um,

I just got thinking about this in rural Utah, that one community, whatever, had 170 guns that might've come from five families. I, I, I probably shouldn't say this is on record, but most of 'em were one individual. A lot of 'em were one individual.

I waive. Thank you. All right.

Uh, I, yeah, I think it's a good consensus bill that could qualify for the consent agenda and, uh, you know, they've been working on it a long time. And if a sponsor explains the bill, well, I mean, I, I'd make that motion.

I, uh, already have.

Uh, we've had a, a great working group for the last couple years on things, how we can not only promote, but also help expand the firearm Safe Harbor Amendments. We've been working with the, uh, Utah Chiefs Association, the Utah Department of Public Safety, and the Utah Commission on Criminal and Juvenile Justice, among other, uh, stakeholders. What this bill, SB 86 is going to do is, is first of all, when an individual has the opportunity, feels like they may be in a, a crisis, a mental health crisis, or somebody in the home, they can voluntarily bring their firearms to the local, uh, uh, enforcement, police, uh, uh, law enforcement agencies to store those firearms until they feel, uh, like they can handle the firearms in their homes. Currently. Mr. President, uh, there's a little bit of question whether those records as they take those firearms to police agencies, whether they're public records, and we just want to clarify the language that those records should be a private record. Uh, knowing that if they were a public record and grable that we believe people would not be willing or want to take and worry about the stigma, uh, about taking firearms to local, uh, law enforcement agencies. This also, we, we are not quite sure how many, uh, firearms are being, uh, taken to these law enforcement agencies. We have one rural agency that currently is carrying or holding almost 220 firearms. So what we'd like to do, this bill will also, uh, um, with the support of of the law enforcement, uh, agencies to collect data. Uh, that data will be collected, um, uh, for the next three years. They, they will re, the CCJJ will report back to the, uh, um, well, I can't remember which committee, law enforcement committee on and how many, uh, weapons are being held currently. And in the future, we would like to try and maybe look in the future and try to provide resources to law enforcement agencies and provide lockers and other storage facilities for that many firearms, especially those that, uh, don't have the capacity in our rural areas. So that's what the bill does, Mr. President, it allows for collecting of, of data, which again, is supported by the law enforcement agencies. Also make the, the records a private record. It also, we, we want these, these firearms, um, obviously taken out of homes where people that are in a, uh, mental health crisis and also when they get the firearms back from these firearm, from these law agencies, the enforcement agencies do a background check to make sure that the individuals have not had either, you know, some kind of charges in the meantime. So that's what the bill does. Oh, Mr. President Pro tempt,

I appreciate that Mr. President Pro tempt, uh, a motion I'll, I'll waive summation and I'll, uh, motion that SB 86 firearm safe Harbor Amendments. Be read a third time.

Senator Vickers Baldry Lewin Aye. Brammer, thus Colmore as Camilla Fillmore Grover Harper Aye. Kins Aye. Ipson a Johnson Aye. Quan McKay? Aye. Mikel Milner Aye. Musselman Aye. Owens Aye. Cher Plum Rebe Sandal Stevenson Stratton Vickers Weiler Aye. Wilson Aye. Winterton, president Adams I two Bill,

Senator Plumb. Thank you Mr. President Pro Tem. Um, this bill is actually something I'm, I'm really kind of excited about Utah moving forward in the space of

The Safe Harbor Storage Program has been a program that, uh, if somebody either themselves or someone in their home, uh, is in a mental health crisis, they can take their firearms voluntarily to the local law enforcement agency. What this bill will do is it will have the enforcement, the law enforcement agency, will collect and report anonymous aggregate data regarding the use of the firearm Safe Harbor program to the CCJJ. And then it requires the commission to receive, compile, and provide data received from law enforcement agents to the law enforcement Criminal Justice Interim Committee. It also provides that the record created by a law enforcement agency under the firearm Safe Harbor program is a private record until the law enforcement agency disposes of the record and provides a Sunset date for the collection and reporting of the firearm Safe harbor. Aggregate data this way, Mr. President Pro temp, we will be able to have a letter better, clearer idea of, of how many firearms are being held throughout the state and if there's resources that we can, uh, give to law enforcement, Mr. Gilbert

Thank you Mr. President Prote. Uh, a motion that, uh, Senate Bill 86 pass And the question is, shall Senate bill 86 pass Roll call vote.

Senator Vickers Baldy Aye. Lein Aye. Brammer Aye. Bus? Aye. Colmore Aye. Escamilla Aye. Fillmore Aye. Grover Harper Aye. Hankins Ipson Aye. Johnson Quan McKay Mikel Milner Musselman Owens pitcher Plum Rebe Sandal Stevenson Stratton Bickers Weiler Aye. Wilson Aye. Winterton President Adams

for its consideration matter. Meeting clerk Senate bill 86, fire Safe Harbor Amendments by Senator Wilson. This bill was heard in public Utilities and energy with a vote of 9 0 3. The House sponsors representative Stevie Liston, Representative e Liston.

Uh, th Thank you Mr. Speaker Pro Tem. Uh, this bill concerns the safe harbor, uh, for firearm storage. This is a legislation that we passed a number of years ago that is on a completely voluntary basis where an individual can take a, a, a firearm into, uh, a law enforcement agency. This bill updates the collection of data and, uh, also clarifies that it's a, a private record and that record needs to be, uh, disposed of by law enforcement after a certain period of time. Um, basic Bill that has had strong support. Thank you, Mr. Speaker Pro Tem.