S.B. 115 Child and Animal Abuse Cross-reporting Amendments: transcript

Yes, please. I would like to, uh, have us replace in, uh, title and Body Senate Bill one 15, substitute one.

Chapter two, picking back up where I left off, uh, the sub was to get those, um, kind of clarifications that the folks in the DCFS and DHHS admin space had requested. Um, and back to what the bill is, the bill really is trying to help us build some bridges between spaces where there might be information that could help one another, but that there isn't necessarily a natural pathway for them to communicate. Other states have built these cross reporting laws into their codes. Illinois, Illinois, Ohio, West Virginia, Maine, Florida. There's, how many did I count on there? I think there were two, three, like 12 of them that have done it. And they've done it in different ways. Some, a little more heavy handed than others. And my goal was not to be heavy handed about this. My goal was for us to look for ways where there were logical buildings and then where there maybe was nothing to start breaking that seal and start some of the connections happening. What we came to find was that actually reporting the animal abuse piece to the human welfare space was going to be easier because, and I think I started to mention this, but there's a statewide system, uh, for DCFS cases, if I'm a doc working in St. George, I'm gonna report to the same system as a teacher working in Brigham City. And so there will be a, a database that collects all of that information that makes it really easy. If there's been a conviction, uh, for someone of an animal offense, the courts will be required to report that into the DCFS system. So this isn't an allegation. This isn't a, my neighbor complained this, this is, there's actually been a conviction. And the courts will make that report into the DCFS system. Now, say there's a case that's already open, uh, that information may actually help them as they're deciding the next best steps for this kids. If there's not a case open on someone, it doesn't like make them open a case, there'll be a repository of those that then they can be pulled from. But I don't want anyone to think this is like a, and I know that there's often this feeling, but that there's some sort of a hunt. There's not, we're really just wanting to get the information in the places where it may be beneficial. Now, when it comes to the human side reporting to the other, it's a little cha more challenging because there is not a statewide repository for animal related information. I work in the er, there's a, a, a child bit by a dog or a cat or something, and I wanna look up a rabies certificate, certificate or see if they've had a radio shot. There's nothing across the state that has like that gathering of information. So there's not really a way to do that reverse. Um, so we thought, all right, well, what, how can we start building those bridges? Well, we're gonna start encouraging and giving permission for the local health folks and the animal control folks to, to have dialogues and to see what that looks like. I'm not gonna pretend that I know what it looks like in any community, and I don't think someone maybe in, uh, Vernal is going to think they see the same thing as someone in Cedar. I'd like those locals to kind of figure it out amongst themselves. And I'd like them to feel like they have permission to do that without requiring, forcing heavy handing them on it. Everything in this bill when it comes to that, is may, these are may share informations now the court will, but the rest is May. And I really ultimately am hopeful that given the link that we know between child abuse and animal abuse, that this will help build relationships from within the safety spaces. And I hope it will also encourage community members when they have those thoughts, like, oh gosh, I notice such and such going on at the dog park. I notice such and such going on over at that house down the street, and it's just a dog. Or it's just a whatever. Just maybe to have the thought that sometimes it's more than that, just to start making that bridge in our minds and to hopefully start building in systemic responses to that. Again, none required, no heavy hand, but I want that to start being built. And it is truly because I, I believe, and I have seen enough cases over the 20 plus years that I've been in the emergency department, I know how real this connection is. And sometimes it's that an animal has been abused to harm a child. This is their most beloved. Sometimes the threat of an abuse is also a way to harm a child. If I can stop it before it, the child is the victim, even though the other part is really awful too, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take that as a step in the right direction. So with that, um, I'm certainly open to questions open

Thank you, chair. May I address the witness?

Uh, do you have any, do we have any data on how many convictions there are on animal abuse in the state?

You know, that's a great question. And I did engage, um, Michael Drell from the courts to make sure this would not be like an overwhelming proposition for them. I didn't ask him the actual number, though. I bet we can get it. I bet we can get it. And, and it isn't necessarily the most easy conviction to get. Um, there are a lot of things that have to go into that. So that, for me feels like a threshold that we could feel pretty certain that something, um, had transpired there if we put it on the conviction as opposed to just the allegation. But I'm, I'm glad to try to get those numbers for you. It would be interesting to also, if we're doing, getting the numbers, understand how many allegations there are as well. I wonder if the courts would have that. And again, because there's not really a state that, I mean, this I think is an area that there's maybe gonna be more, um, more to learn. Right? I, I, I'm not even sure who we would ask that because it is so many municipal and local authorities that are handling those kinds of allegations. Like you said,

You could step back and if a case is filed, but there's not a conviction, oh, you know, maybe that's That. Yeah. That's Start. How many case has been filed and what are

The convictions? Oh, I'm glad to dig into that and see what we can come up with. Yeah.

Um, good afternoon, members of the committee. My name is Christina Pulsifer and I am a licensed social worker. I worked for the Utah Division of Child and Family Services for several years, and I currently work in a community-based crisis services program, supporting families and their animals. Throughout my career, my focus has been family safety, stability, and early intervention. I am here today in strong support of SB one 15. In my work during the past 25 years, I have seen firsthand that child abuse, domestic violence, elder abuse, and animal cruelty rarely occur in isolation. These issues often overlap, and when one form of abuse is present, as in the link, others are frequently occurring in the same household. Animal abuse is often one of the earliest and most visible warning signs that something much more serious is happening behind closed doors. Cross reporting is a practical evidence-based tool that helps professionals respond more effectively. When veterinarians, animal control officers and child welfare professionals are able to share concerns appropriately, it improves safety for everyone involved. This bill does not create new mandates to investigate outside of one's role. It allows trained professionals to communicate when they see red flags that may indicate broader harm. Research consistently shows shows strong links between animal cruelty and interpersonal violence. Studies have found high rates of pet abuse in household where children are physically assaulted. In some cases, animals are harmed in front of children as a means of control or intimidation. SB one 15 strengthens coordination supports professional discretion and reinforces collaboration between systems that already serve the same families. From my experience as a social social worker, these connections matter. They save time, reduce risk, and can ultimately save lives. I respectfully urge you to support SB one 15 and help Utah coordinate, um, building a more trauma reformed depo response for families and animals. Thank you.

Hi everybody. Um, my name is Alexis PTIs. I'm the Executive Director of the Humane Society of Utah, based in Murray. Um, I also, uh, am coming to support this bill and echo what, uh, Christina had just outlined. Um, this bill really strengthens public safety by promoting formal interagency communication between child welfare and animal welfare agencies in abuse and neglect cases. Extensive evidence shows a clear link between animal abuse and child abuse, with harm to one, often signal signaling risk to the other. When agencies share information, coordinate responses, and cross report concerns, they're better equipped to identify danger earlier, intervene more effectively, and prevent escalation of violence. Encouraging collaboration ensures that warning signs aren't overlooked, reduces duplicated efforts and leads to more comprehensive investigations and safer outcomes for vulnerable children, animals, and families. This legislation is a practical approach that per, that improves case outcomes, supports frontline professionals, and enhances overall community safety. Thank you.

Yes. Uh, thank you. Sorry for, uh, my microphone there and for the, the challenge. Uh, I, uh, yeah. Chair and members of the committee thank you for the opportunity to speak. Uh, I am Ian Williams and I'm the president of the Utah Animal Control Officers Association. Uh, and we're here in, uh, star, uh, in support of, uh, Senate Bill one 15, Ian, sorry. Lemme see.

I'm in a hotel room where, uh, I'm actually with the, uh, animal Control Officers Association in St. George, right now at our annual conference in training. Okay. So I'm down here with about a hundred, uh, animal control officers and law enforcement officers assigned to animal care, uh, from across our state. And, uh, we had a chance to meet this morning and discuss Senate Bill one 15. And, uh, I want to sincerely thank Senator Plumb for her support and, uh, just as important her vision and recognizing, uh, that better interagency communication is not a nice to have. It is a public safety necessity. Okay. As Senate Bill one 15 strengthens that connection between child welfare and animal welfare in a way that is practical, responsible, and grounded in what frontline professionals see every day. In our work, we often encounter the same homes and the same crisis, uh, crises, you know, the neglect, violence, instability, and risk factors that impact both children and animals. When agencies operate in silos, warning signs get missed, opportunities to intervene safely and early could be lost. Uh, SB one 15 helps close those gaps by supporting that cross reporting and collaboration while emphasizing appropriate safeguards and limiting the sharing of sensitive information to what's necessary for an investigation. The bill will help DCFS animal control law enforcement, veterinarians, and local partners work together more effectively to protect vulnerable lives and respond faster when there's danger in a home. So I respectfully urge your favorable recommendation of SB one 15. And again, thank you Senator Plumb for advancing a thoughtful solution that improves coordination and strengthens protections for Utah families and their pets. Thank you.

Hi. Sunday's Hunt. I represent, uh, humane Society, United States, uh, actually formally Humane Society, United States. We are now Humane World for animals, and I'm the Utah State Director, and I just really want to appreciate Senator Plumb for bringing on this important legislation, and I really hope all of you will support it. Thank you.

Thank you Chair. I would move that we pass Senate Bill one 15, child and Animal Abuse cross reporting amendments first substitute with a favorable recommendation.

I would, yes. Appreciate the sponsor's work on this. Uh, I'm really intrigued with the, I'd like to get some more data. I think that's gonna be helpful for us, that the number increases to 88% when the abuse is physical. The abuse is physical of the animal. I'm assuming that that 88%, uh, that data point would indicate there's challenges for the child abuse. And that is really the heart of what we're trying to address here. I wonder if, uh, on the other hand, if, if there's, uh, what, what the percentage would be, we probably don't have the data of those, you know, that have animals where there's physical abuse in the home. Maybe is that a hundred percent then the animals would be abused? I don't know. But I, I do, uh, uh, appreciate, I appreciate the, the correlation here and I think we need all we can to help and protect our children. So I think it's a worthwhile to continue the discussion on this legislation.

Well, thank you all. Um, I, I know it's not an easy topic, but I do think it's such an important topic, so thank you for the consideration.

Okay. And back to the make of the motion. I Will waive. Thank

Oh, Thank you, Mr. President. I, I get nervous. I, I've been Okay. Thank you all for hearing me out on this. Um, this is a subject that is not necessarily one that I think anyone looks forward to thinking about or talking about, but the importance of it is, is really crucial. And that is finding ways to protect some of our most vulnerable our kids, uh, in the spaces where they are at risk of neglect, abuse. Some of the other things that are really hard, like I said to talk about, and there's something that we have known about in the child welfare spaces and the child spaces and where we take care of kids. And that's the link between animal abuse and child abuse. There have been some reports that have shown, uh, the presence of animal abuse in a home increases the likelihood of child abuse by over 640%. If we can find ways to identify risk factors for our kiddos before that happens, I think that's the goal for any of us. So this bill patterns after multiple other states that have looked into such a way, and that is to require cross reporting between our animal welfare and our child welfare spaces. Um, it's a lot easier into the child welfare system space than it is vice versa, because we have a child, uh, statewide DCFS system that's set up. And this system essentially allows, uh, any reporters from across the state to report concerning cases. And there's a statewide way they can access that. It's not quite so easy the other way around. There's not a statewide animal database. You might be, I dunno if interested is the right word, but if you wanted to find out if an animal, say you worked at an ER like I do, and you wanted to find out if an animal that had bitten, somebody had been vaccinated for rabies, there isn't a clear way for you to do that. So this bill sets up a way for there to be reporting of convictions from animal abuse into that DCFS space. This will happen via our courts. Um, Senator Stratton happened, asked a great question when we were in committee, and that was about how many of these cases are we looking at, uh, talking to the, the courts, it looks like there's probably about 150 convictions every year of the reportable offenses. And those will go into the DCFS system. Does it open a whole new case? No, it doesn't. But it goes in as a piece of information that can possibly be used for child welfare investigations in, in the future. One example out of Connecticut where they have passed a bill similar to this, they showed that in the prior two years from this study that they were describing that 47 cases of child endangerment had been identified by animal prosecutions. So there is kind of a track set for this to happen. My hope here is that this is a seal break, uh, when it comes to the child abuse and child welfare space talking to the animal spaces, there's an opportunity for them to work together. I worked with our DCFS folks and our ags office to find out the best wording for that, because at first I thought it would be MOUs and ah, no, it actually turns out that that's more problematic for them. So this bell sets up a weight for the DCFS space to say, we have a concern about something going on with an animal in a home where we were investigating something about a child and opens again, that kind of communication space to happen. People's privacy. I get it. That's something that I think that we all think about and should be thinking about when we look at these bills. But I think the opportunity to protect our kids is so important that, I hope you see it like I do, that building these bridges and making that connected link to protect our kids is worth it. Uh, with that being said, I'm open to any, um, additional questions or thoughts from my colleagues.

you, Mr. President. Uh, this isn't really a question, but this is a big concern, Mr. President. In line 33, this bill file says, an animal control officer shall notify the Division of Child and Family Services. If the Animal Control Officer one receives a report of animal abuse or neglect, we are getting the cart before the horse here. If someone just by chance thinks that their neighbor is abusing an animal, the animal control officer then has to report to Department of Child Family Services. Now, that person is on a list before there is ever an a really a, a crime that's been committed before anybody actually has investigated. All this says is that if they receive a report, they shall pass that report on to Department of Child and Family Services. This could be a disgruntled neighbor. This could be anybody that wants to use this tool to alert Child and Family Services for anything. I just think this is way too broad and I think that this bill file, quite honestly, needs some more time to try to figure out, to make sure that there's actually confirmed abuse of the animal before we just go starting to report. So that's an interesting hold

Senator Weiler. Hold it. Let me make sure your, your mic's on. There you go. Senator, Senator Plumb. Will you yield?

Yes, of course. Uh, go ahead, Senator.

Thank you. I'm just wondering if the good sponsor from Salt Lake has talked with DCFS about that provision. This is a space I work in. Um, they are required to go out whenever there's a report and interview parents and children and things like that. About 85% of their investigations come back unsubstantiated. But it is an incredible burden on them to go investigate everything. I know that they're usually looking for bruises and broken bones and, you know, you know, uh, just clear evidence of abuse or neglect, maybe an under severely underweight child. So I'm not even sure what they would do if, if a neighbor said, I think they might be abusing animals. And I, I understand the concern. I understand most of our serial killers that we see on tv. It started off with animals. I get the crossover. I'm just wondering if she's talked to DCFS about this Senator Plumb?

Yes. I, I spoke with Ms. Meyer as well as with the ag that works with them when we were constructing this and making sure that there was clarity around the language that they felt they could implement. Uh, and that also would help them have, um, you know, a lot of times people need permission, uh, from within the code to feel like it's okay to actually act on something. So yes, we did talk to and work with, um, the director, uh, and I think that first substitute in fact was addressing some language and, and wording concerns that they have.

Thank you, Mr. President. And, uh, I'd just like to say, you know, our, uh, family home, uh, child services and stuff is kind of overburdened as it is trying to take care of children and stuff in our rural areas and stuff like that. And just to add something more to 'em, like this is just a little bit much, I think. And, uh, on, uh, line 55 where it says cruelty to an animal. You know, I, I butcher animals, I eat 'em, and I just don't see where, you know, some people, they might be pets to them, but to me it's, uh, dinner. And so I think that's completely how this got outta committee. I, I'll never know because I, if it Uintah natural resources, I don't think it would come out of our committee. But I'm, uh, completely opposed to this

On the bill. Yes, I, I'd love to address some of these concerns. Um, Senator Hinkins, it's only a convicted crime. It's not a, a charge or a, it's a conviction of it. Uh, and then the courts would do the notification. So that's, that's the clarity that's in there. But I can certainly change wording too, if that would, if there's way to make that clear.

On Oh, no, I appreciate that, Mr. President. And, and I think that, um, this is part of my, my favorite process of when we do these bills, right? You, you have things brought up in committee that you address and you make hopefully better. And then here we are on the floor with the opportunity to address concerns that are brought up and make better. Um, I think that, um, both of the all three actually of the concerns reigned by raised by my colleagues are worth looking at language. And, um, I am committed as well to exploring that with them. If, if there's appetite to pass this on outta this reading, I won't advance it forward until there has been a conversation there. I also think that, again, like I said, a seal break is what I'm shooting for here. And if that means that we need to carve back some of it, I'm open to that as well. Understanding that everyone's comfort zones are different. Thank you. Uh, now I need a motion if I can.

Uh, yes, Mr. President. Thank you. Uh, again, um, with gratitude for the opportunity to make this better and trying to get my ears honed forward a little bit here. Yeah. Um, I would call the question and like I said, commit to improvement before there would be another reading.

Senator Owens. Thank you, Mr. Thank you, Mr. President. Um, I, I just wanna stand and I totally admire the sponsor's heart. Um, uh, for me, this is just becomes way too subjective and then puts into the middle of investigations. And, and, and where are we going? Um, if, if I lose an animal, I know this happens, I have cattle and, you know, or even a service animal is lost, I, I just worry that we're getting out there a little too far with policy. Be are we gonna have Amber alert for animals? Uh, would that be held against me if I didn't call that? And so I, I'm worried about that. And, um, I'm, I don't see this as being Necessary. So I'm no