S.B. 186 Charter School Modifications: transcript

Thank you, Mr. Chair. So today, uh, I'll go ahead and kick it off, and then I'll introduce you to my sidekick here. Um, Senate Bill 180 6 charter school-based funding amendments, um, has in its request, charter schools are requesting a one-time 15.995, uh, appropriation to help close the funding gap with similarly sized districts to support required reporting. This includes a one-time appropriation of 1,500,000 to create a charter school service center modeled after existing recess to improve efficiency and shared support. We are requesting funding from the education stabilization fund. Charter schools request that the SBE fiscal analysts and stakeholders conduct a comprehensive study of the funding disparities and develop a proposal to resolve these inequities. And with that, I'll turn the time over now, um, to my friend, Kim Frank, and allow her to introduce, introduce herself and this bill.

Good afternoon, Kim Frank with the Utah Charter Network. You should have all received a little packet of information. Did, did your intern Oh, Shoot. Um, she, she's, she's MII, but we'll, yeah. Okay. Thank you. Hopefully You'll receive a little packet of information, but I'll, I'll get started. I just wanted to give you a little bit of history, um, just for your information. Charter schools are, are celebrating 25 years in Utah this year, which is a very exciting thing. I remember 25 years ago when I was up here, uh, pleading for charter schools to exist. We wondered if we'd ever get to this day. So we're we're excited about that. You have probably heard multiple times, 25 years ago, somebody said charter schools would do more for less. Well, the other half of that sentence was, charter schools would be required to do less. The idea was charter schools would not have all the burdensome reports that district schools have. We would still have transparency and, um, health and safety and financial reports, but we wouldn't have to jump through all the hoops that, that all the districts have to. Well, that didn't turn out that way. Um, charter schools are required to do all of the reports. Each individual LEA is a charter school. A charter school is its own LEA. And each LEA has to do all of the reports a district has to do. There are two exemptions. We don't have to have, uh, certified principals and we don't have to have, um, separate libraries or we can have classroom libraries. So those are the only two exemptions that came out of the 25 years of charter schools. I would like to point out that in education appropriations the other day, they pointed out that, um, enrollment in districts is heading down and it will be going down for the foreseeable future through 2034. They also pointed out that charter school growth is expected to continue through 2034. So our tax paying parents are choosing charter schools. Uh, six years ago I was worried about the burdensome reports that I just was telling you about. So I asked then Senator Henderson to do a legislative audit and find out how many reports are required of all LEAs, not just charter schools, and how much does it cost to do those reports. Well, they came back after a year of study, said they stopped counting at 350 reports. And the reason they stopped counting is 'cause no two LEAs did all of the same reports. And they also said they had no idea how much it cost. They knew it cost far more than it should. So they kind of stopped counting and gave up. Since then, there are two committees. One led by Representative Thompson and one led by Representative MacPherson that are working with the Office of Education and Stakeholders to reduce the amount of reports. Over the last year, I think we've been able to reduce five or six reports. So it's not going very fast, but we hope to get there at some point. Um, while all all of this was happening, I Uintah the state board, um, finance team, and I asked them to help me discover how much charter schools received to do the required reports versus how much similarly sized small school districts got to do the same reports. They came back to me and told me that charter schools received $25 million less to do the same reports than the same size school districts receive. Well, that got me thinking. What about all the other charter school funding streams? And you can see on the, the paper, I think you just got it. Uh, there are four main funding streams in each one of those funding streams. Charter schools, um, are, there's a disparity between charter schools and small districts by millions and millions. When you add it all up, it's somewhere in the neighborhood at least of $50 million. So what we would like to have happen, as Senator Balderree stated, we'd like to have a study with the LFA, with the state school board and with charter school stakeholders to discover what the disparity actually is. Right now, that $50 million is 13.2% of charter school funding. You all know we've been asked to participate in the exercise to reduce our funding by 5%. Well, that would be an 18% deficit, and we're, we're cutting to the bone at that point. If we start, um, cutting further for charter schools, we don't want that to have happened. Um, Senator Balderree went through the three, the three things that this bill does. I'd like to point out a couple things on the flyer that we gave you. You can see on the front page, the blue and blue, it shows that charter schools are educating their students slightly better than district schools. I'm not here to say that charter, all charter schools are better than all districts, but we are educating our students. You can also see on the other graph, uh, charter schools are growing. We're in the green and district schools are in the red. So parents are choosing charter schools. I would like to point out one more thing. On the back page. You can see the charter, the continued charter school growth over years, but, um, facility and construction costs. I built a brand new school two years ago for a thousand students in Alpine School District. Uh, I didn't do it myself. Our, our board did, um, we spent $25 million to build that building for, for a thousand students. Alpine School District this year just passed a bond for $250 million to build two schools. One of them is a high school. I understand that high schools are far more expensive than elementary schools, but I think that's something that this study should probably look into as well. And I do wanna finally say, uh, two more things. I don't think the legislature ever intended for charter schools to be funded. Um, the disparities that we are, one of your colleagues said to me yesterday, so you're telling me that charter schools are kind of the wicked stepchildren of, of education. I said your words, not mine, but, um, some charter schools actually feel that way. And I, again, I don't think it was ever the legislature's intent to defund charter schools to the degree that we have, but we would like to have this study so that we can come back to you next year and tell you what we've discovered and come up with a plan to catch charter schools up. It's, it's simply unsustainable at this point. And I did wanna share with you, you have an in your packets, your individual, um, petition, for lack of a better word. We sent out a letter to charter school families asking them to sign a support letter for charter schools. Not, it's not really a petition, but more of a, they wanted you to know how much they support charter schools. So each of you have in your packet, uh, like I mentioned, we got almost 5,000 signatures in just over a week. You have in your packet, the, the folks from your district that signed that petition. And I'm here to answer any questions if you have any.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, where is this publication that says the State Board of Education calculations showed charter schools received approximately $25 million less? Is that a, a report somewhere that I can refer to? Uh, I don't think that they've written it down. I worked with the finance team at the Office of Education. I've been told it's, there was another bill last year, uh, that senator, that Representative Peterson ran that, that resolved some of the funding issues for small school districts. I've been told that because of that bill, this 25 million could actually be closer to 50. I can, I can ask the state board, um, finance team if they would put it in writing for you, if you'd like. This is just the number that they gave Me. Yeah, I'd like to see that in writing and see how that's broken down. 'cause that's the first time, well, I've heard this, but I've never really actually seen the numbers that would like indicate where this shortfall was. So I, I am kind of a little, um, skeptical To your point. I think that's what this Said. Excuse me. I'm sorry. Thank you. Um, I'm also wondering, um, when we talk about these Reese's and says RE'S are unavailable to most charter schools, um, I don't, I'm not certain if they're unavailable or you're, they're just not choosing to be a part of it. So, um, Reese's are open to every school that wants to be a part of it. And if you are living in that geographical location, you can definitely partake in it. So when you say it's unavailable, is that the only ones that are in Salt Lake County or are, are they across the state? Because it's my understanding of a Reese's that every school that's in that area has the ability to use those services, just like the state school board.

You're absolutely right. Okay. The problem for charter schools is along the Wasatch front, there is no Resa. We don't want to take funding from the resa. We want to look at their model. They've been very efficient. We want to look at what they've done and what they've been successful at, and have one along the Wasatch front front. For charter schools, we're asking for one time 1.5 million to establish that center. And then we won't be asking for ongoing funding. Charter schools will pay dues to cover the rest.

Okay. Thank you. Um, so we have a state school board that actually helps our smaller school districts as well. Why, why would you need a re reso? Why can't you just use the charter, uh, the state school board or, you know, um, get together with those charter schools at the Wasatch?

On the Wasatch front, I think the, the, I can't speak for the state board, obviously. They, they are very helpful to charter schools. Um, I, there's a gal here that would like to come and testify as a member of the public. That's kind of become a fixer of charter schools. Mm-hmm. The state charter school board staff is tapped out and they're helpful to the degree, degree that they can be, but because charter schools are down to the tune of somewhere about around $50 million, like I said, it, it's cutting to the bone. And we don't have the funds to train our principals the way they should be trained and train the finance administrators the way they should be trained, which is why we'd like to have this resource center.

Thanks. And I just have one last question. Go ahead. This, uh, equal expectations required equitable support. This graph here that says Utah Charter Schools versus district, um, where, how did you come up with this graph? Because I'm very familiar with the data gateway, this graph, and, um, as I've looked at all of my neighborhood schools and I compare their scores, because I, I've done this frequently. I actually, uh, wrote a paper when I was getting my master's that talked about the, um, the scores of my local school districts and the scores of our neighborhood school districts. And I picked random spots. Like, I literally almost like threw a dart at a map. And I picked one neighborhood school and then charter schools that were close to it. And in every instance, I didn't see charter schools outperforming their local schools. So, um, I've done this numerous times, so I don't know where that would come from. Did you use the gate wait gateway tool?

This came from the Utah State Charter School Board. Uhhuh. And to your point, um, I'm not here to tell you that every charter school is better than every district school. Uh, I don't think that's the case. Yeah, I think parents choose charter schools because it's a good school for their individual student. Um, there are many very successful district schools as there are many, um, successful charter schools. This was not my chart. It was, it was from the Utah State Charter School Board.

Thank you, uh, chair and members of the committee. Thank you. My name is Maurice Stinson. I'm the Interim Executive Director of the Utah State Charter School Board. But I'm speaking today in my personal capacity as an 18 year licensed public educator and administrator, a former charter school executive director, as well as a parent of two Utah students attending amazing local public charter schools. I'm supporting Senate Bill 180 6 because it makes smart, practical improvements to how charter schools are funded. The bill helps smaller schools cover essential fixed costs, creates a balanced study group to examine long-term funding equity, and allows for the formation of educational service agencies so schools can collaborate and operate more efficiently. Senate Bill 180 6, strength and stability, clarity and sustainability for the over 85,000 students served by Utah's growing public charter sector. I respectfully ask for your support of this bill. Thank you.

Yeah. My name's Nathan Marshall. I'm the executive director of Providence Hall down in Harriman, Utah. And just wanted to speak to, um, the proposal for the, the base funding equity. I think it's really important. Um, you know, we've had those fundings in the past, and just making sure that those funds are continued and available for charters can be really important. Um, and to speak to the Utah, uh, potential charter resource center, um, there's a lot of, uh, functionality that the resources provide, which are really, really important. And, uh, in working with other charters and, and discussing some of the needs that they have, um, those service centers could really provide a lot for charters. Uh, from literacy training to, uh, specific things like, uh, you know, BCBAs and rbs, as well as support with, uh, administrative and, uh, business, uh, administrator support and networking. Um, also along the lines of IT and services that that could provide some, uh, additional support for charters, um, in areas that, uh, uh, that collectively as a cooperative could really, really assist charters. Um, in addition to that, it would also provide the opportunity for charters to, uh, to co-op in terms of purchasing and provide, uh, uh, purchasing power for, for charters to collectively, um, uh, do some of those things. So, appreciate.

Thank you. My name is Cynthia Phillips and I am currently as, uh, Kim Frank suggested a fixer of, um, uh, meaning, meaning a trainer of, uh, interim directors, executive directors at charter schools, boards of directors, and also, um, at times, uh, supporting teacher licensing. Uh, I have been a member of the state Charter school board, um, for eight years. And I'm now currently just coming to you as a citizen, as a teacher of over 42 years experience, because somehow I am still in the classroom, even though I continue to try to retire. And, uh, wanted to mention the following things. And this is something I've actually had an opportunity to speak with Senator rere about on many occasions. But, um, we have in our charter schools, particularly smaller, uh, to mid-size charter schools, sometimes only one administrator, sometimes 1.5 in terms of FTE and sometimes two. And these charter schools are not just these administrators, not just acting as the principal or assistant principal, but they are also the district office for that LEA. They are doing both jobs. They're often undertrained, uh, under experienced, um, to do all of those jobs. Often they've come up through the teaching pathway and they are really good teachers and curriculum advisors and even behavior specialists in some instances. Um, but they are not the, not trained to be the district office, which they are then required to be. And so, um, in conjunction with people like me, the state charter school board, the associations who provide training, they, they muddle through as it were. Um, I remember coming up last year and saying, and, and being very sympathetic to a one among your erudite body who said to me, why do you keep coming back and asking for this money? And it's because it's always one time, it's always needed. And one of the great things about this bill is that it gives an opportunity to actually study what is really needed, what is the right thing to do, and to resolve with a plan ongoing money, uh, if it, if it suits the legislature to support really good reporting from charter schools so that we are accountable, we are doing a good job to meet USBE rule and law from this body, and that we have an opportunity to raise student outcomes in an appropriate way.

Hello, friends. Um, Royce Fan Tassel Utah Association of Public Charter Schools Happy Charter School on the day or on the Hill Day? Um, I think, uh, the most important thing, especially in the current fiscal year, um, I think we all recognize that funds are tight. Uh, but we've spent, uh, a lot of time over the last several years trying to figure out what the right district, small district based funding and nest funding ought to look like. And what Senator Baldry is, uh, saying here is, Hey, this ought to be something we ought to, we need to put the same brain power and make sure that we know what those numbers ought to look like. We can't afford, uh, to use some back of the napkin math. If you're gonna put your name to millions of dollars that are gonna go to schools, um, let's make sure that we know what that is. And you've heard me before say that, um, a uh, a, uh, AA for charter schools would make sense. I don't know that there's money for that this year. I hope that there is, but I am not holding my breath. Um, but I appreciate what Senator Baldry is doing and saying, Hey, let's do this right, and let's make sure that we understand what those numbers are and should be. And so we hope that Senate Bill 180 6 moves forward. Thank you.

Hey, what, while you're there, I want to ask a question, please. Okay. And that is, you know, last year I ran a bill to actually look at the Authorizers 10 Bill 2 67. Yeah. And, and you know, I didn't, and we had an agreement to, to do it. The problem is there's no funding to do it the right way. And, you know, in, in my mind, wasn't that originally one of the roles of the authorizer? I mean, wasn't that kind of, you know, what they were going to do is help these schools be successful? And, and that's why I'm wondering, do we, do we just restructure that like we started out to, or, or this, I, and the reason why I ask you is because I know you know a lot about the history of this stuff, so just kinda wondering.

Thank you, Senator, and I appreciate the question. Um, I think, uh, you, you're, you may be conflating a couple of different important roles that, um, schools have to evaluate. So an authorizers job in, and, and perhaps, uh, uh, Marie can give you more detail here, but I think that this is a gonna be a fair, if succinct, uh, summary. The authorizer job is to evaluate whether or not, um, a given board a given application is, uh, can give enough confidence that they know how to run a school and then say, yep, here's the imper. We're gonna say that's good. But then it's also to take a look when the school is running and saying, oh, maybe you're not doing something right. Um, and maybe we need to close a school that was an experiment that didn't work, and let's, uh, so that is it though, can be related to providing sort of the ancillary services that we're talking about with erisa. Um, and certainly the state charter school board, um, in its supportive oversight role has, uh, tried to provide that with funding from the legislature. There's been about $400,000 per year in training funding that's been, um, provided to, uh, contractors to do, uh, help schools with some of that. But it is inevitably a, there's a little bit of tension in saying, we are going to give you assistance, but we're also gonna be the one who says you might get closed down. Um, you know, you build it, you, you have some obligation to make sure that it, it works. And, and you may not feel the same obligation to say, oh, that's a failed experiment. We need to close that. So, um, it's a delicate balance. It's a not unfair question, it, um, but I, I look forward to the discussion that I hope we, I expect we'll have this year about what that relationship ought to look like between all of the authorizers. I think right now we have roughly six three that are, I think, particularly active, but Granite School District is looking at it like peaks, um, is looking at it. But obviously you've got Utah Tech and the State Charter School Board Center for the School of the future that, uh, Senator Johnson, you're obviously very close with and appropriately so. Um, but that, that is an important question that we all need to figure out. And it does have some fiscal implications. As I say. I don't know that we'll be able to solve that this session, but I hope to next year.

I would love to. I move that we recommend Senate Bill 180 6 to the full body of the Senate.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, I'm looking at this fiscal note of, uh, $30 million, and, um, when I looked in the budget really quickly for what our Reese's cost, it's a $2.1 million for four Reeses across the state. So that's, that's a big difference between equity of what we're doing for our public schools and what we're doing for a charter school potentially. Uh, on February 27th and 2018, Howard Stevensons had an article in the paper that said charter schools are not the, uh, we're not the, we were disappointing. I think that was the word that he used in that article. And Howard Stevenson was the person that ran the bulls to start charter schools. When we think about the authorizer that was part of it to the, uh, the chair's, um, statement, they were supposed to provide these resources for their charter schools to be successful. Um, you also, uh, Roy Van Tassel mentioned contractors, and this is part of the problems that we have with charter schools. There's so many contractors out there that we can't really follow the money as quickly as we can with public schools because there's so many independent contractors out there. The next thing is, um, when we think about, um, how we are working with charter schools and public school and public neighborhood schools, public neighborhood schools have been put on turnaround because we are obligated to have a school that's close to where people live. But now we have charter schools, which are also public in turnaround. And these are the, these are, um, I'm not gonna say extra schools, but when we're thinking about creating an alternative for parents to go to a different school, we were thinking that we, they'd be given an opportunity to go to the school that had more resource, not more resources, but innovative thinking. That was the word that we all used when we started charter schools. But now we have charter schools that are in turnaround. So, um, I struggle with having two parallel programs running and funding both of them because they should be working together and not trying to separate because we, we are, I, I don't believe this chart that all the charter schools are outperforming our neighborhood schools, because I do have turnaround schools that are charter schools. So I, I think that this is a very large fiscal note for, um, what you're asking, because your counterparts that you're trying to emulate are only spending $2.1 million for four centers. So I think that this is a really, uh, difficult ask in this lean year. And, uh, I would make a sub, uh, substitute motion that we table this until we get those reports back that they said they were gonna study the difference, because I don't see where these numbers are coming from. So that would be my substitute motion that we table this and find those reports.

I'll hold.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm, I'm going to, I'm gonna speak against the, the substitute motion, and, uh, this does have a fiscal note. It's a big fiscal note, but we're early in the session and we we're working on budgets, and, and I think there does need to be some, some equity. I understand some of those concerns, but as this moves forward, ultimately if, if the, the good Senator can't get it funded, it's, it's not gonna move forward. If she can get it funded, it'll move forward. And I want to give her an opportunity to do that. This is early in the session, and we have asked all of our agencies to, to do, to prioritize and look at, look at possible budget cuts and, and, and, and address what's important across the board. So I'm gonna speak against it. Um, I think this should move forward. I understand it is a lot of money, but let's, let's give her, give her a chance to, to make her pitch

Okay. Thank you. Um, I thank you, Mr. Chair. So I would just say, as mentioned earlier in this presentation, charter schools are known for building schools at significantly cheaper rates than district schools. Um, so in this instance, um, the senator mentioned that the, that the Charter School Service Center would cost more than the Reese's that exist. And I would say to that, the difference is that unlike the, the district funded risa, the charter school service center would be, would only require one time funding, where the district, uh, risa's receive ongoing funding. So actually, they're cheaper in the long run because the charter schools pay the dues. So I don't know if you missed that in the presentation, but they would pay the dues for any money to keep it up and going.

Thank you. As we are asking all of our districts and LEAs to cut their budgets by 5%, we are asking $30 million for our charter schools. They represent 10% of our population to 12. And, um, when I, there's one story that I'd like to share before I, uh, relinquish the microphone is, I, I work in neighborhood schools and we have a school where we had four kids from the same family. And I don't know, I think about this family all the time because it makes me wonder what's going on in our schools and how it's happening and how we, what we're doing. So there were four kids and they had one child with severe learning disabilities who was at the neighborhood school, and her peers all Uintah, the charter school. Now, was it that the neighborhood school was providing better services for people with disabilities? And if we were doing such a great job with that child, why weren't all the other kids coming to that school? But then I'm like, so when you think about a family like that, it just makes me curious, like, who's welcome in our charter schools and why aren't all of our kids welcoming in charter schools? And what services were we providing in our neighborhood schools that we're not providing in our charter schools? And so the equity in that question makes me question the equity for this question. So that's my answer to why I think we should be holding this until we get better data.

Seeing none, we'll have you sum. Thank you. I'll wa Okay. And you are the maker of the motion, so you can sum too. Okay. I will waive. Okay.

Good morning Chair Committee members. Um, First of all, I just want to start with this huge packet that I have on my hand right here. In less than a week's time, um, we received over 5,000 parents who signed a letter in support of this bill. And this, these are coming in, I'm not even gonna tell you the ones that aren't from the members' districts here, but cities like Camas, Oakley, Henefer, Park City Ship, Syracuse Layton, Clearfield, Kaysville, Hurricane New Harmony, salt, Salt Lake South, Salt Lake, South Jordan Holiday, Smithfield, Logan, Trenton, Hyde Park, Tremont and Willard. Brigham City Perry, uh, Mantua Garland, Bear River, Corinne Honeyville, Nibley River Heights, uh, Richmond, I Bend St. George Payson, spring Lake and Santaquin. And I'm not even naming my cities. Um, so this bill has broad support from parents. Um, SB 180 6 addresses a real funding disparity between charter schools and district schools. Charter schools are held to the same reporting compliance and accountability requirements as district schools, but historically receive significantly less funding to meet those requirements. And this bill does three things. Um, first, it would fund a comprehensive charter funding study with the, uh, USBE, the fiscal analyst and charter school stakeholders to compare the charter school funding with similarly sized districts and to come back to the legislature with recommendations on moving forward. The second thing it would do is it includes a one time investment from the Education stabilization fund to stabilize charter schools support and train staff to fulfill these required reporting obligations. I would like to note that while, um, while we requested, um, that $15 million number myself as the Senate Chair of Public Education Appropriations, um, due to, you know, the skepticism of some who don't believe the numbers that big, chose to cut that number by one fifth. So it's now one fifth at 3.6 million. And not because I don't think that we don't need the 15 million, but until we have the results from this, the, the study which this would fund. And so please know that in case you're looking at that number, it has been reduced by my own request as the Senate chair. I chose to prioritize it lower until we get those numbers. I actually believe it's much higher. In fact, according to, um, fiscal analysts from the Utah State Board of Education, they estimate that the per pupil funding for districts was 1,446 higher than charters. And if you multiply this difference by the number of charter school students, you actually get $118,400,000. So the disparity is much greater than even we anticipated. And, and the study will get exact us to those exact numbers. So I would just have, you know that, um, as you consider this request, also included in this request is a one-time, one and a half million dollars investment, which would help establish a charter school service center modeled after existing recess, which would help them improve efficiency and share services. And the nice thing about this is that these ongoing operations would be funded after, um, after the three years of $500,000 for the first three years. To, to build that to, to pay for the building charter dues would cover the ongoing costs. So recess currently are funded at the tune of 540 some odd thousand dollars ongoing every year, where this, the, the similar thing here that we're helping to build for charter schools, um, would be taken care of and not cost anything after that initial investment. And another thing that people ask that I think is really good is, you know, they say, well, we have these four res, um, that anyone can use. That's true. But these Reeses are not located, uh, in the, the most populous area. So we don't have one in Utah County, which is where this one is being proposed to being built. So I think that would be a great resource, um, for, for those along the Wasatch front. And, um, and so I just wanted to bring that up. Um, this funding would ensure that, uh, charter schools can maintain operations and meet compliance obligations as policy makers evaluate these long-term solutions. And it does not divert funds from school districts. And I, I could say more, but I wanna turn the time over to, um, Kim Frank, who I believe is online, if you could please promote her. Thank you.

Thank you. Kim Frank with the Utah Charter Network. I, sorry, I'm sorry I couldn't be there today. I am at a bonding conference in Florida, but I appreciate the opportunity and I will be brief. Um, as we looked over the interim at the charter school funding there, there are four main funding sources for charter schools. We discovered along with the State Board of Education finance team, these are not my numbers, uh, these are joint numbers. We discovered that charter schools are underfunded to the tune of 20 to $50 million in each funding stream. So this study is so important so that we can look at how charter schools are funded as compared to districts. Again, our intent, as Senator Balderree said, is not to reduce funding to districts. We would like to know what the funding, uh, differences are so that we can begin to work on that for charter schools. Um, and I won't belabor the point of what the bill does, except to say that the study is extremely important. Um, I also wanted to point out that charter schools are in our 25th year this year. It doesn't seem possible, but we're in our 25th year and charter schools was pointed out in, um, education appropriations are the only sector in education that is in, at least for the foreseeable future, expected to grow. So our parents are tax paying parents. Those 5,000 families that signed the petition that Senator Balderree spoke of are very supportive of this bill and want to know what the funding disparities are. I will also point out that I don't think it was ever the legislature's intent to underfund charter schools to what could potentially be $120 million that were underfunded. Um, which is again, points out the, the ne necessity for the study. We wanna find out what that, that number actually is. It doesn't matter to me what the number is, just that we find out what the number is and that's what the study will do. Um, and then I wanted to point out that, um, representative Oxy asked a great question and I, that I wasn't able, didn't have time to answer. In one of our previous committee meetings, she asked if you get the funding and which, which we're not going to get the, the full 15 that we've requested. But had we gotten all of it, even with whatever we get, she asked what would this funding be spent on it's onetime funding for the most part. So I went back to my school and asked what would we spend it on? And the first thing they mentioned was this U Sims is coming online. We don't have an SIS system that integrates with U Sims that costs about $40,000. We need a, a financial system that's upgraded. Um, we're working with Polaris to get that upgraded. That's another 35 to $40,000. Um, and we need to integrate our HR and payroll with U Sims. So this is, this is something that, those are just three examples that the money could be spent on, which would be over the a hundred potential, a hundred thousand dollars that the schools could receive. So this, this, what funding we do get, we're grateful for. And it is highly necessary and I will leave it at that. Thank you for your time.

Representative Bald, or sorry, Senator Baldy. Thank You. That concludes my presentation.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. So, um, I love the idea of having the, you know, the service center type RESA type of thing. Um, and also think the study is needed. One question about the study. So, um, I mean, charter schools that, you know, the idea when they started was, you know, to be innovative, you know, they could find ways to do it for less. Should there be differences? Like, like are you just looking at what's the difference between, you know, a district school and a charter school and should they be funded the same or do you think there's areas where they should be funded differently? I do think there are areas where they should be funded differently. That's kind of right. 25 years ago, that was kind of the understanding. Um, this is, but this is the same, right, for compliance district schools have multiple, sometimes multiple FTEs to handle compliance. Where charter schools currently, you've got an administrator, um, wearing multiple hats to do the same work that they're not being funded to do. So to me, that's, that's not part of the original, uh, understanding this is asking them to do the same work without the same help. Thank you. Thank you.

Yes, thank you. So again, as Senate Appropriations chair of the Public Education Committee, I did this and took it down, you know, significantly to address my friend, my fellow colleagues who have skepticism about that. That number isn't that high. And like I shared with you from the numbers from the USB, it's actually much higher than we think already. But, um, it's a bandaid and, but it will also fund the study. It will also help for the first year and it will help to build this, uh, charter resource center. So tho that's why we chose those much significantly smaller numbers.

Yeah, on house Bill two will, uh, will address the, the differences of what EAC decides to fund.

Um, thank you and thank you senator for this bill. But, um, when we created charter schools, we made decisions about what they would look like and we wouldn't provide transportation or, um, big administrative costs. And I'm not opposed to studying this, but, um, to give extra funding now to administration really goes against how they were structured in the first place. And, and being on public ed approaches, as you know, we had to make cuts to almost every program. So, um, this fiscal note really is dependent on what happens in EAC, is that correct? That's Right. But could you just answer that question about, you know, why now you're asking for money for administrative costs when that wasn't part of the initial charter school organization?

So I'm going because, um, I have someone who's smarter than I am and has been in the charter school space longer. I would, uh, defer this question to, um, to Kimberly Frank.

Great questions. Um, Representative Moss, you are 100% correct when we began this experiment that we called charter schools 25 years ago. Um, And in order to get the bill passed, We, someone said at one point that 20 ish million dollars less to do the same things that are dis that districts are required to do. The other half of the sentence that doesn't ever gets get mentioned is that we'd be required to do less, not just receive less. So for the 25 years that we've been exist in existence, we have to do everything that a district has to do. So, for example, my school until two years ago, only had 200 students, but my little school with 200 students had to do the exact same reports as Jordan School District or Al Alpine School District. So the deal kind of was you'd do more for less, but you would be required to do less. We would love to look at that opportunity to do less. Representative Thompson and Representative MacPherson have, um, bills and task force that are looking at lowering those requirements, not just for charter schools, but for districts as well, which is necessary. So we applaud that, but I think that the study will tell us what we're actually looking at as far as what requirements are. Maybe there are some areas where charter schools wouldn't be required to do as much, but to this point we've had to do everything that the districts have had to do with quite a bit less funding.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. And, um, I think maybe part of my clarifying question here just got somewhat answered, but maybe some clarity, 'cause we did run a bill last year that created a, a, uh, a task force that is looking this year now, um, on the reporting requirements. Um, some of the data we got from last year included that many of our districts are expending upwards of 30% of their administrative budget and staff on the reporting requirements that are in place right now. Um, and that's pretty significant when you consider districts that are pretty large. Um, and then that disproportionate effect on charters. So, um, I guess my question is still though, as when this study moves forward, will it also be able to identify if those reports and reporting requirements are loosened? Um, will that be factored into the, um, cost requirements and, and, uh, and the expected, um, appropriations requests that come in? Uh, if, if in fact that we can get more, um, uh, either parody between, uh, districts and, and charters as far as, uh, how we're funding reporting or just removing reports that are completely unnecessary that we know are unnecessary at this point?

So, may I answer? Oh yes, go ahead, Kim. Well, I just, I just wanted to, uh, applaud, um, Representative MacPherson for his bill last year and say that I 100% agree, and I know the districts agree we need to reduce the reporting requirements. It's overburdensome not just to charter schools, but to districts as well. And yes, as part of the study, I think we ought to look at what was the intent of charter schools in the first place? What are areas that that we can, um, tell, allow them to not have to fulfill, obviously safety and financial and all those kinds of things, but maybe there's some reports that charters wouldn't have to be re required to do. Again, we are not looking for parody necessarily with districts. We're just like hoping to get in the right ballpark so that our schools, as we're currently constituted, we're having to take funding from the classroom to do required reports. That seems crazy to me, as much funding ought to be able to stay in the classroom as possible.

My name is Cynthia Phillips. I'm representing also the Utah Charter Network, but also myself as a individual in trenches working with boards of directors of charters, as well as executive directors and administrative teams. And I thank, uh, chair Walters for allowing me to speak as well as committee members. Uh, first of all, we're very grateful for the sponsors, Senator Baldry and Representative Pierucci for bringing this bill forward. One of the things to note is that, uh, I was for many years a member of No, uh, as a result of my, um, position as an executive director in a rural charter school. And I saw what great benefits these Reeses have for, um, economies of scale for, for tiny smallish, uh, districts as well as charter schools. And although you're in an urban area with Wasatch Front, to have those economies of scales addressed for small and smallest charters, even though they're not in a rural area, would be a significant support for reports requirements, and just basic improvements in the delivery of services to students in those charter schools. I also applaud the study, which will allow for an understanding of the actual administrative costs and what it would mean to bring charter schools into a little bit more parody for apple's to apple's reporting and administrative function. And then I just wanna say that for the last, uh, couple of years as I retired from the classroom and administration, uh, specifically I've been helping charter schools to try to, uh, learn how to better do the functions of an administrator with a very tiny staff. And I just wanna remind committee members that whatever money is provided through whatever fiscal note will allow a tiny charter, smallish, small, smallish charter school that the administrators on that team who sometimes are only literally a director, perhaps an assistant director and an office, a front office individual to perform the functions better, of not only a school, but a district, which is what they become as a small charter, LEA in a way that will please the legislature more, but also, uh, produce an opportunity to develop administrators within the charter schools who that can continue on as retiring administrators leave. This is something the districts have with their, with because of their large and they have more funds, uh, they're able to do that. They're able to grow their administrators from within and they're able to, uh, have a wonderful, uh, pipeline of people who really know what they're doing. Uh, this base funding allows for charter schools to have more of a system that allows for better reporting, better administrative function, and the development of administrators going forward, which is something I think we wanna also see. Thank you so much for your time.

Um, no substitutes or amendments on this. Very straightforward. Okay.

And I'm gonna make a motion that we pass out favorably senate bill 180 6 Motion is that we recommend favorably Senate Bill 180 6 charter school based funding amendments.

You Mr. President and thank you Senator Winterton looking out for me. I appreciate that. This bill, uh, Mr. President is Senate Bill 180 6 charter school base of funding amendments and the State Board of Education, along with charter schools, has identified a structural funding imbalance of $50 million when comparing charter schools to similarly sized school districts. I do not believe the legislature has intentionally underfunded charter schools, but the gap developed gradually over 25 years as funding requests went unaddressed and disparities compounded over time. SB 180 6 does three things. First, it's a comprehensive charter funding study, uh, with the State Board of Education fiscal analysts and charter school stakeholders to compare charter school funding with similarly sized districts and to come back to the legislature with recommendations on moving forward. Second, it includes a one-time appropriation or an investment from the education stabilization fund to stabilize charter schools support and train staff to fulfill required reporting obligations. Third, uh, included in the request is a one-time one and a half million dollar investment to establish a charter school service center modeled after existing recess to improve efficiency and share services. Ongoing operations would be funded through charter school dues. Um, and just for, by way of comparison, so the current, the current recess are receiving $540,000 ongoing every year. And with this one and a half million dollars appropriation, it would, uh, pay for itself after three years. And the remainder, there would no be no more ongoing funding after those three years, it would be $500,000 for three years because the charter dues would pay for it after that and it would be self-sufficient and sustaining. Um, the SB 180 6 funding would temporarily ensure that charter schools can maintain operations and meet compliance obligations as policy makers evaluate the long-term solutions. It focuses on analyzing the data to inform thoughtful conclusions and guide responsible evidence-based decisions moving forward, and it does not divert funds from school districts. So, um, with that I will conclude my presentation and, um, I'm open to questions.

Thank you Mr. President. Um, can a charter school join a visa right now? Senator Baldry, will you yield?

I yield, yes, Go ahead.

Do do you understand the question?

I did understand the question. I don't know the answer. Uh, I'm sure if Senator Fillmore was, was here, he would know the answer to that question.

Yes, thank you. Um, I am very aware of what Reese's do and I know how these regional service centers work and I know how they work in conjunction with the state school board. Um, I believe that us any charter school and any school district can ask for services from a regional service center, I'm pretty sure. Um, and if you can't get those services from a regional service center, you can reach out to the state school board, which is what many school districts do. Um, I currently hear and frequently hear that, you know, we have to create equity amongst our charter schools and our public schools, but then we have carve outs for our charter schools when it comes to teacher evaluations and also how we are we going to deal with, uh, building their schools. So, um, if you're asking for equity, I already believe that there's equity in this program, and so that's why I'm opposing this bill.

Yes. Thank you. I'd like to speak to the equity charter schools educate thousands of Utah students between district and charter schools. Charter schools are currently the only schools that have, uh, increasing enrollments while our district schools are declining. And so this, uh, this is an important area that I'm happy to address. As a matter of fact, when we, when we talked with the State Board of Education Finance members, they actually estimated that the disparity was not only 150 million that they thought it was $118,400 or higher, which is what the, the study will actually show the actual numbers. So I'm happy to address that. And also lastly, uh, if you can see the stack of papers here, these within one week, uh, these are letters of support from all around the state of citizens who support this, uh, this. And it's from Honeyville Salt Lake Holiday Fountain Green E from Nephi, Hurricane, uh, Monroe Redmond, Central Valley, Salina, Provo, Salem, uh, all over the state. Santa Clara St. George Enterprise, Springville St. George Ivins Spanish Fork, 5,000 in one week of letters of support that came in, um, once people knew about this. And with that, I will conclude my presentation.

Senator Vickers Baldry Aye. Lewin Brammer Aye. Bus Colmore Aye. As Camia Fillmore Grover Aye. Harper Kins Ipson Johnson. Aye. K Juab McKay Aye. Mikel Aye. Milner? Yes. Owens Aye. Pitcher. Plum Bie Sandal Aye. Stevenson Aye. Stratton? Yes. Vickers. Weiler Wilson. Aye. Aye. Wilson Winterton. President Adams Aye.

Uh, I'll keep this brief because, uh, I was not brief last time. Um, but this is the, the bill that will help us to determine, uh, how we can best help our charter schools that, um, currently do not have, that they have the same reporting compliance and accountability requirements as district schools, but have, uh, received significantly less funding to meet those requirements. And without I'd conclude my presentation.

Senator Ipson Baldy Aye. Blew in no brammer bus Comore Escamia Fillmore Aye. Grover Harper Kins Ipson Johnson k Juab Mc McKay A Mikel Aye. Milner Musselman Owens pitcher Plum Rebi Sandal Stevenson Stratton Bickers Weiler Aye. Wilson Winterton.

Senator Wilson. Thank you Mr. President. Uh, yesterday, uh, we had a quite a discussion and I'm gonna be a little, uh, less long-winded.

Thank you Mr. Speaker. Motion to adopt the I believe the second sub.

Yes. Colleagues. Uh, this is actually just adding in a couple of pieces that this body already voted on that weren't controversial. Controversial that have to do with the charter school board members taking an oath office and then just replacing the charter school revolving account with the charter school revolving funds. Those policies already passed out of this body. We're just helping make this Senate bill better. And when you adopt this sub, the bill will turn green.

Thank you colleagues. Uh, this bill is really important and has been worked on over interim carefully to try and address the funding disparity that we have between charter schools and district schools. Over time, charter schools have had added reporting and compliance and accountability standards, uh, similar to our district schools, but are con continuing to receive less funding to meet those requirements. Now, this bill is not proposing a new formula or a radical change, um, but it is trying to give some one type stabilization fund to help support, uh, these charter schools meet existing legal and accountability requirements so that we can continue working on this policy to make sure we have made the right adjustments to move forward. Um, this helps promote equity without reducing district funding. It is temporary targeted, and I would say very fiscally responsible and helps level the playing field without taking from anyone else. And I would ask for my colleague support on it.

I'll waive. Thank you. Summation has been waived.

Yes. Colleagues. Uh, this is actually just adding in a couple of pieces that this body already voted on that weren't controversial. Controversial that have to do with the charter school board members taking an oath office and then just replacing the charter school revolving account with the charter school revolving funds. Those policies already passed out of this body. We're just helping make this Senate bill better. And when you adopt this sub, the bill will turn green.

Thank you colleagues. Uh, this bill is really important and has been worked on over interim carefully to try and address the funding disparity that we have between charter schools and district schools. Over time, charter schools have had added reporting and compliance and accountability standards, uh, similar to our district schools, but are con continuing to receive less funding to meet those requirements. Now, this bill is not proposing a new formula or a radical change, um, but it is trying to give some one type stabilization fund to help support, uh, these charter schools meet existing legal and accountability requirements so that we can continue working on this policy to make sure we have made the right adjustments to move forward. Um, this helps promote equity without reducing district funding. It is temporary targeted, and I would say very fiscally responsible and helps level the playing field without taking from anyone else. And I would ask for my colleague support on it.

I'll waive. Thank you. Summation has been waived.

Ahead. Thank you Mr. President. Uh, we've already debated this bill. Um, it just adds a requirement for charter school governing board members to take an oath of office just like others do. Replaces the Charter school revolving account with, with the Charter School Revolving Fund and it reduces the fiscal note to 3.6 million, which has been approved by the Executive Appropriations. Um, with that, I'll take any questions.