S.B. 188 Construction Trades Education Amendments

What this bill does

This bill would add the Utah Masonry Council to the list of approved providers of continuing education for contractor licenses. The council could offer those classes only to its own members.

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Every vote

• 4 yes, 0 no, 4 absentSenate Business and Labor Committee: vote, which it did not pass · Jan 29, 2026Who voted how

Hearings and debates

• Jan 29, 2026 Senate Business and Labor Committee▶ Watch
  Transcript (32 turns)

  1. Committee chair (presiding)48:19

     Uh, first item on the agenda is Senate bill 180 8, construction Trades Education Amendment. Senator Escamilla, time is yours.

  2. Sen. Luz Escamilla48:37

     Good afternoon, Mr. Chair. This is actually my first bill I present in this session, so make it a great bill experience. Thank you. Just putting a little bit of a seed, planting it as I'm looking at Center Musman, because you're just here direct. Uh, thank you for this opportunity. Um, I Think I have a question before you even get started. Yes. Or center mussman. This is the way to start my presentation. That's great. Um, but thank you. This is, um, an overall very simple, um, bill, and it's, it's in line 46, which the Two death points are saying A a constituent brought this to me. And this is a simple bill. Always. Those are always, Always red flags. Everyone is already reading. Perfect guys. Thank you. So lines 46 in the section relating to continuing education requirements for contractor licenses. Um, my bill adds the Utah Masonry Council as a provider very specific to their members. And I think all of you, if you've been in this committee, are very familiar with this process. There's been a history related to the quality of continuing education for contractors. And, you know, our do hole oversees more than a hundred licenses and they have to make sure all of those, all the safety pieces are in place and licenses are keeping up and continuing education is one of them. And in, uh, years ago we went through a process of changing who those providers were providing the continuing education classes. And we have three large, what I will call the umbrella organizations that can provide all trainings and continuing education classes for the entire state of Utah. When we did the original changes, um, we all voted, I think we were all part of that process. Um, they were other very independent, unique, um, to their expertise and industry that were added, that were limited to who they can actually do and offer the continuing education classes or courses. And what I'm doing with this bill, Mr. Chair and committee members, is adding the Utah Masonry Council. And if it's okay with the chair, I would like for them to explain why, uh, this is important to their industry and hope to at that point open for questions. Is that okay, Mr. Chair?

  3. Committee chair (presiding)51:10

     Yes, please go ahead, introduce yourself.

  4. Adam Hicken, Utah Masonry Council51:13

     My name is Adam Hicken with the Utah Masonry Council. Um, I've been on the board for 14 years, served as past president, and for those 14 years as we've been, uh, recruiting and bringing on more and more members, the biggest thing that they ask us is, what can you do for us? What's in it for me if I, you know, actually am on, on the council? And the thing that they have asked us for is more and more educational training. So what we are wanting to do by being on this bill is making it possible so that we can give our members, um, trade specific training, uh, not just your simple training that a lot of, uh, subcontractors go through, but training that will help them as contractors become better and provide a better quality product in the commercial and residential industry. And Mr. Chair, again, this bill is about trade specific training. It will only be available for their members. So they cannot advertise or do the training outside of their membership. I think to what, um, the vice president for the Ministry Council said, um, Adam is that that's what their members are asking for. So they decided to reach out and I would just wanna end my presentation. Mr. Chair. I, I'm not an expert, obviously in this field, you guys, I've been in very different industries, but I, I do have a little bit of a personal connection to this. My grandmother opened her business in this field in, in a different part of the world. So I grew up seeing her work and manufacture incredible. I call it art because there's an art behind masonry and that industry and that, uh, specific trade. So I, it when I was reached, but you know, they reached us. Um, I was very excited because it reminded me a little bit of my childhood and just all that encompasses doing it right and the quality behind that work. And I know it's not very common in the United States, but it's, it's a beautiful thing. And I think trades should be able to train their members if that's what they want to. And with that, we're open for questions, Mr. Chair.

  5. Sen. Calvin R. Musselman53:30

     Thanks. Um, I had a couple of questions, so I'm just making sure I understand this. So when it, in this chapter, when it says a contractor license, is that a a general contractor or is that any subcontractor or what, what license is that? Is that a or are all encompassing? So this specific part of coding run, it helps us with this, my understanding is for the general contractors.

  6. Adam Hicken, Utah Masonry Council53:57

     Okay. Yeah. But then you, in your testimony you said that like the Utah Masonry Council, which you're adding could only be done for their members. Mm-hmm. So just like, Yeah, there is inspection, some Disperse, some Information subcontractors, Or 47 to 51, anything beyond the Utah Home Builders Association. So number lines, 37 to 46, if we added the Masonry Council can only teach and provide this training to their trade members. Okay. They have to their member organizations. So that's, thank you for that question. 'cause that, I know there's been people that are, don't feel this is appropriate. I think this is very appropriate because it's only to the members of their organization. They cannot go outside for advertisement or for training. It will only be for their members. So in that case, you're saying that this training could only go to those that are in the masonry profession, not on The Mason contractor. Not a, not a a, uh, you know, a framer or something like that. Or, or plumber or, It is for the, it's for any individual that is a con general contractor that is a member of the masonry council can get only related training to the masonry industry or trade. Does that make sense? Very specific.

  7. Sen. Calvin R. Musselman55:16

     Okay. So it could be a, another type of contracting license, but they would have to be a member of this counts. Correct. Okay. And just to clarify, this is for continuing education. So my understanding is that general contractors get six hours every two years for continuing education. So they pick, you know, when I think many industries or professions do that, this will only say if you're a member of the Utah Mens Council and that is what you're trying to get your continuing ed hours on, you can take the training from them only if you're a member of their council.

  8. Unknown speaker55:52speaker not certain

     Okay. Thank you. Uh, Senator Musselman, I'm, I'm afraid I might reveal my ignorance. So in, I I, I'm, I'm somewhat familiar with, in my world, and I suppose others on here, the have professional licensing on continuing education. But generally speaking, you, you just work through the agency to get approved as a continued ED instructor or you can get the course approved. But this, this general list, I, I didn't even realize it was in code. I mean, I used to be a tradesman a long time ago and I had no idea that there was a code section that referenced continuing education. Uh, and so can you not just do this in, in rule, you, you can only do it in In statute. So in statute we have limited, and I'm sure there's gonna be people that will share how we end up in this place.

  9. Sen. Luz Escamilla56:50

     Senator, it used to be an open, anyone that could qualify their curriculum with a department, the division of do professional licensure, they will approve your training and you can take it. Yeah. There was a shift based on concerns related to the quality of training. And we moved Only in this section, Again, only in this section. And we moved to this specific where they give the three umbrella organizations a very large organization statewide, that can give all the training. We're not touching their ability to train everyone. And then they listed a couple of more industry specific option for their membership. And we are just saying in this case, because it is a, a unique, not very common, the missionary council to be included for their members to train on their very specific trade.

  10. Committee chair (presiding)57:41speaker not certain

      Okay. Okay. I, I think. Okay. Thanks. Any other questions? Uh, Senator Pitcher.

  11. Sen. Stephanie Pitcher57:50

      Thank you. This is an area I'm not very familiar with, but I'm, I'm curious, there's a number of other organizations that are already listed in the code. How did, why are, like how did they get there? What determined, who was listed and why?

  12. Sen. Luz Escamilla58:05

      Thank you for that question, Mr. Chair. If I can answer I going back to history and all these changes. 'cause I was learning the same way. All of you're learning is, again, in the, when we went from open, anyone can train and do the classes as long as they get approved by the division. In this case topple. We Uintah specific organizations line 34, which is I all the way to 41. Were put in as the ones that could do it. I'm sure it was a compromise. I'm not sure who run that legislation then. And then we've been adding the other four for a specific need of industry. So I'm coming here and asking to add 46. I mean, I'm being explaining for, again, very industry focused for Masonry. Um, and the council will be the provider. But all of those were added in incremental steps, the last four as well.

  13. Committee chair (presiding)59:08

      Thank you. Other questions? Okay. Seeing none, is there anyone in the public like testify on this? See one hand please come up. We have anybody online? No. Okay. Have some questions here. I think you know the drill. So Been here a time or two. Thank

  14. Taz Biesinger, Lobbyist, Utah Home Builders Association59:33

      you. Yeah. Mr. Chair Taz be with the Utah Home Builders Association and, uh, centers. I, I have been through this history way back more than I'm sure any of you want to hear. Uh, I'm happy to provide whatever. But is is the sponsor is represented accurately. Uh, it originally when the continued education for contractors and chair Mr. Chair, that includes all licensed contractors, general and specialty contractors. Okay. So that's why the masonries who may only have a specialty license would still need education or they might have a general contractor's license. But either way it includes them all. Okay. And, and, um, it was, it was wild, wild West. The classes were a mess. We had people coming in from outta state that weren't even teaching Utah law. Lots of different problems. And as again, as the sponsors referenced, uh, Doppel just didn't have the resources to adequately, uh, uh, police those things. And so it gotta be such a mess that we worked with Doppel years ago and, and crafted this legislation. And the, and the resolution was there were some of these larger organizations that had buy-in and commitment that were local associations, uh, that had this had the capacity and the resources to provide good services and, and to adequately comply with all of the regulations to make sure that the contractors that attend the classes get credit and it's license. It's, it's, it's registered in their, in their accounts at Doppel so that when they go to renew their license, it shows that they have the continuing education. Uh, and a lot of the organizations just don't have that level of sophistication. They're not large enough. They don't, and, and they don't understand the process. Not speaking Ill of the masonry council, the home builders have been, have been working with them for eight to 10 years to provide them with what they described this morning as classes specifically geared for their industry. 'cause they're absolutely right. A masonry contractor is very different than a painting contractor or a framer or a plumber or electrician. And so, because the home builders have a statewide organization, uh, and, and the level of we think sophistication and experience now for many, many years that we have reached out to these other subcontractor groups and said, let us help you provide these specific trainings. And, and again, we've been doing it for a long time with the Masonry Council, we're surprised that they're here saying that they're uns unsatisfied. We're, we've reached out to 'em, see if there's something we can't do. And we we're still committed to that. We, we see them as a business partner both in the industry and in providing education. And so we're here to oppose a bill for, for, again, what the sponsor references. We just keep adding to it. And if we just every year keep adding more and more and more smaller organizations, we're just gonna be right back to the wild, wild west. And we're trying to make sure that the quality of the classes, uh, are, are there. Uh, and one last comment. You know, years ago for those of you may, uh, have been around for a while, we had a big problem with mechanics lanes. And we think that this continual education and the pre-licensing education helps these craftsmen, these tradesmen that are great brick masonry or plumbers, but maybe not so great at running a business, how to run a business and how to do all those kinds of things. And, and we think that that's been a big player in trying to reduce those mechanically. So we have a vested interest in the industry, a vested interest in the education to try and make that it, make sure that the quality remains where it's been and that it just doesn't slip. So we, we would ask that you would oppose the bill.

  15. Committee chair (presiding)1:03:19

      Thank you. Okay. Don't run off. I think you've stimulated a couple of questions that I have.

  16. Unknown speaker1:03:23speaker not certain

      Um, so I understand and, and you know, I'm pleading, showing my ignorance in this field, but, um, so a masonry contractor, I assume they have to have X number of hours of, of continuing education. Yeah. I believe it's six hours every two years. Mm-hmm. I think that's what the sponsor said. So if this passed, then would they only get their six hours from the Masonry Council? They, No, they could go anywhere they want. They could, they could pick and choose anywhere what they want. So. Okay.

  17. Unknown speaker1:03:53speaker not certain

      Is there money made on, on providing CE The, at a certain level?

  18. Taz Biesinger, Lobbyist, Utah Home Builders Association1:03:57

      There is, uh, to be honest with you, the home builders represent to me that they're not really making money because it's such a small group, uh, on it. And the administrative burden is, is tough. But they, again, they're committed to try and make sure that the education is provided and at, at a quality level. But yes, Senator, there is, there is money to that can be made. Not always, but it can be made.

  19. Unknown speaker1:04:21speaker not certain

      And then I guess, uh, final question is, um, and I can understand, I remember some of those dialogues about, you know, when you mentioned the Wild wild West and some of that, I can't remember when this was done, but you, you kinda stimulated some memory that I remembered kinda going through some of those battles. But both of us have been here for a little while. Yeah. Um, are you, and I don't think you said this and I think you're pretty clear, but are you saying that if we allowed this to go through that the, the Masonry Council would be providing inferior Ce? That's our concern.

  20. Taz Biesinger, Lobbyist, Utah Home Builders Association1:04:53

      I mean, again, we've worked with them and, and, and our experience working with them. Again, not here to, we're not here to to speak Ill of their group 'cause they're certainly a worthy group. Um, but again, there, there are, there are things that need to be met to qualify for these classes. And so sometimes we've had to help them manipulate what they want to see in a course to make sure that it meets the requirements that Doppel has set out for, for education classes. And again, we set that up with Doppel years ago so that we could help be kind of the, the police force for it. So, uh, do so it doesn't just slip through the cracks at Doppel. They just don't have the resources.

  21. Unknown speaker1:05:34speaker not certain

      And I guess you just simulate one more question. So, so it sounds like Doppel is the one that oversees the CE courses. Are they the one that accredits some, or,

  22. Taz Biesinger, Lobbyist, Utah Home Builders Association1:05:43

      That's correct. I I, I know in my my world, I have, we have to have like a federally accredited thing for any kind of a CE that we take. So is there, Well these, you're right, you're right, Mr. Chair, they're, they're, they're accredited by Doppel. So if you wanna do a course, you have to draft the outline. You have to do, provide an outline of the instructor, submit it to doppel. They have to go through it and approve it. You hold the course, you, you, uh, take a role and then you have to submit those that attended the course to doppel so that they can enter it into their computer. So it registers with the contractors completed one, two, up to six credit hours. And then, and then, uh, the provider should be, if they're doing it right, issue them a certificate that they attended this class for this many hours on this day, uh, provided by this organization. Uh, and so that if there is some discrepancy between when they go to pay for their licensee fee, Doppel says, Hey, you only have four hours, you need six. They can go, no, I've got their certificates. And they can provide those to Doppel and they can clear that up. 'cause mistakes happen. I mean everybody. But, so that's, that's the way it should be done. That's the way the home builders try to do it. We believe most of the other organizations are, are doing the same.

  23. Unknown speaker1:06:58speaker not certain

      Okay. Thanks. I think I exhausted my brain. Um, Senator Musselman, Again, it's been 25 years, but um, as far as license with the state, plumbers, electricians, HVAC, what else has to be licensed with the state?

  24. Unknown speaker1:07:20speaker not certain

      Well, general contractors. General contractors. Okay. Especially contractors. I'm talking Specialty, you know, I don't know the complete list. Ross might have a better idea. I don't know the complete list, but there, there's Level, I think there's a lot. That's my point. I'm trying to figure out. There might be a hundred, maybe more A specialty license that is monitor at the state level. It's almost all of them. It's, it's every, every trade that's there. Okay. All carbon Layers. Okay. Yeah. Tile sitters have to have license. Concrete guys have to have license. Roofers have to have license. Okay. Okay.

  25. Unknown speaker1:07:56speaker not certain

      Thanks. Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate it.

  26. Committee chair (presiding)1:08:00

      Any others in the public that like, testify on this? Okay. Seeing, seeing none, we'll come back to the committee for any further discussion or action. Senator Ipson.

  27. Sen. Don L. Ipson1:08:21

      Thank you Mr. Chair. I'd, I'd make a motion that we move the agenda on this and give her a chance to, to work the details out with the home builders.

  28. Committee chair (presiding)1:08:32

      Okay. Thank you. The motion is appropriate before us would be, the item would be to the motion before would be to move to the next agenda. I item next item on the agenda. So with that being said, Senator Vickers, Camille, I'll come back to you. You're

  29. Sen. Luz Escamilla1:08:46

      The sponsor. Thank you. Thank you Mr. Chair. Now, I guess I'll do my remarks here. Um, I appreciate that Senator Ipson is smart to always try to work and we'll work with, with them to try to find consensus. I think this, I learned a lot through this process. It's been a good educational piece. My take is, it is very narrow and I want us to recognize that it's a industry that's asking to train their own members because we have, as a state not allowed them to do that. So in most of other industries, you're allowed to have this process that, um, Senator Maman described and has been described before that you get doubled to approve your training and you're, you're then, um, certified to do that. Here we have said no, only an X number of organizations can do it. They're just saying, can we train our own in our very, um, you know, focus, um, trade a specific way. I think competition is always healthy. It's not precluding anyone to follow and find their training somewhere else. And trades know better. We say local government knows better. We should also respect people's, um, way of, um, you know, training their own people on their expertise. So I, I appreciate the opportunity to come back and I, and you know, you know me and I'll work hard to find consensus, but I also want us to think how limiting may not be how we do things in Utah and competition in the free market is healthy. And, and I, I would love to see that. But thank you for, for allowing me to present. Thank you.

  30. Committee chair (presiding)1:10:26

      Thank you. Senator Ipson. I'll wa okay, we'll place some discussion, further discussion of the motion before I go to you. Senator Ipson. Uh, Senator Musselman.

  31. Sen. Calvin R. Musselman1:10:38

      I, I do, I do have a little pause and I'm just, and and it's not necessarily about this organization 'cause I'm looking at the list and I started scrubbing lists as fast as I could go. What's not on the list is concrete contractors, framing contractors, drywall contractors, finish coverage, installation contractors, fire suppression. I mean, I can keep going. So I'm, I'm weighing what was just testified to as to where do we stop. I'm not sure I'm gonna push back against the general contract or the, the home builders associate a little bit. I don't know if it was a good idea to do this in code, but we did it. And so here we are. Um, nevertheless, I have some pause, so I just wanted to express that.

  32. Committee chair (presiding)1:11:25

      Thank you. Okay, let's place the motion. All in favor of the motion to, uh, move to the next time on the agenda. Please say aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Opposed say nay rule Pa Nana. Four zero. Thank you Senator. Okay. Um, we'll go to the next item on the agenda.