S.B. 217 Local Food Amendments: transcript

Rep Senator Comar. Alright, Thank you. Chair committee. Happy Friday afternoon. Yeah. The, uh, central purpose of this bill is simple. It's to make locally grown and homemade food more readily available to Utah, to Utah consumers, and to create a clear, easier path for local producers to sell what they grow and to make, and making their own communities. So we have all across Utah, we have small farmers, home producers and families that sell things like homemade bread jams, honey salsa, fruits, and other locally produced produced goods at farmers' markets and direct to sale locations. And these individuals aren't operating like large commercial businesses, they're just neighbors trying to provide for their families and contribute to their local economies. So this bill builds on that tradition and supporting these producers by continuing a policy of reasonable deregulation and consumer access. So first, the bill removes, uh, unnecessary and ineffective signage requirement for direct to sale farmer's markets. So there's, there's signage requirements right now, but this basically takes the, the idea that if you're going to a farmer's market, you kind of know what you're getting into. And so there's arbitrary signage requirements and it, and it removes that and, and acknowledges that these products are not inspected or regulated by default. Second, the bill clarifies that producers can sell not only directly, but also through a designated representative, meaning they can find a partner or a contractor who can help them distribute or sell homemade products when they can't always be physically present. And the bill makes clear that when they do that, the producers retain owner ownership of their goods unless they agree otherwise, which, uh, still provides, uh, important protections and clarity for small businesses. Um, this bill, I don't know if you guys heard all about raw milk in this committee, but this bill does not address raw milk. So, uh, an original version did. So you can be assured that you don't have to deal with that today. Um, and then it's, it clarifies a tax exemption for locally produced food. And so sometimes when you go to a farmer farmer's market, some of this stuff is tax exempt, some's not, and it can kind of be confusing. And so it, it, it helps to clarify that. So it does provide for a small fiscal note, um, based on that tax exemption, but it provides a lot of clarity. And for some of these, um, you know, small business people at, at the, at the farmer's market, it gets confusing. Like, oh, this is tax exempt, this is not, and how do you ring that up? And, and the truth is probably it's not really being monitored or track that well anyways. So with that open, any questions?

Makes sense to me. I mean, when I get salsa from my neighbor, I've been to their house before, I know where they're preparing this stuff, they're getting it right out of their garden or whatever. Um, I guess my question is around how is, how are we maintaining that same level of food security and safety when there might be a second party that's then distributing or selling on behalf of the, the manufacturer, for lack of a better word?

Yeah, good question. So it doesn't, it doesn't take away, um, labeling requirements. So the labeling will still, still be there. You still, the original producer is still the ultimate owner. So if there is outbreaks or anything like that, there's still the ability to track it back. And so that, that, that would be the key. The the idea is that you might, might be able to better, more easily develop a co-op or something like that, but when you purchase something, the labeling requirements are unchanged in this bill in law. So you would still know who the original producer is.

That's good to know. Thank you. All right.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm feeling chatty today. Now I'd like to move to the next slide. I'm on the agenda on the ground. So there is no raw milk in this spill. No, I'm just kidding. I had moved that We favorably recommend. Are you withdrawing that much? Yes. No, that we favorably recommend Senate Bill two 17. All right. That's, that motion is in order. Do you wanna speak to that? I actually love this bill. I think it's great. But like, you are really close. You picked the wrong floor sponsor and there's no milk. So, but no, you've done done a good job.

I just wanna say, I really like this bill too. I love homegrown things. I love when my neighbors bring homegrown things. My husband is very much into honey right now and loves his beehives and loves putting his own little labels on it. So anyway, I really appreciate this bill.

or any final summation. No, Appreciate the motion and the Support. All

Can, we can amend the raw milk back in on the floor. Okay. Well, maybe. All right.

Okay. Thank you, chair. So the, the central purpose of this bill is to make locally grown homemade, locally grown and homemade food more readily available to Utah consumers, and to create a clear, easier path for local producers to sell what they grow and make it in their communities. So across Utah, we have several small farmers home producers and families who sell things like homemade bread jams, honey salsa, fruits, produce, and, and all sorts of other locally produced goods at farmers markets and direct to sale locations. Uh, these people aren't just operating like, they're not operating like large commercial businesses. They're just neighbors, people in the community trying to provide for their families and trying to contribute to the local economy and produce good locally grown food to Utah consumers. So this bill builds on Utah's tradition of supporting these producers by continuing a policy of reasonable deregulation and consumer access. So first, the bill removes, uh, an unnec unnecessary and probably ineffective signage requirement for direct to sale farmer's markets while still maintaining transparency that these products are not inspected or regulated by the state. So, meaning if you go to a farmer's market, it should be understood that you are buying stuff that has not been inspected. So the bill makes clear that producers retain ownership of their goods unless they agree otherwise, which provides important protection and clarity for small businesses. So, um, So they, they can, right, right now they have to sell it personally, but this allows them to contract with somebody to sell with the same with the same caveat mTOR premises as is already there. So, buyer beware type stuff. Um, I want to acknowledge a few things. There was a error in the drafting of this bill as it relates to raw milk. Uh, the raw milk portion is not intended to be the focus of this leg legislation, however, uh, the intent here is broader. It's about general deregulation and allowing locally produced food to be more easily sold in access throughout Utah. And so the, the mistake was that there might potentially be a drafting error in that, uh, the deregulation of raw milk, it still can't be sold in stores, and that that was not the intent. So the intent is to potentially fix that, but, uh, to further the conversation about raw milk, uh, as it pertains to other bills that are running in the legislature right now as well. Um, so I'll continue work on that and, uh, appreciate the committee's understanding on that point. Additionally, the bill currently contains a proposed sales tax exemption for homemade food sold at direct to sale locations. Um, and getting the fiscal note on this, uh, this portion of the bill raises some, uh, questions that I'm trying to get to the bottom of. So I'm continuing to work on that. My understanding is that many farmer's market sellers are, are not generally collecting sales tax today, and that there are some arbitrary rules and inconsistent guidelines regarding when and how a seller is supposed to collect. And so I'm working to try to better understand that framework and, uh, we will, we'll get with the tax commission about the fiscal note and the implications of that sales tax exemption, and then hopefully try to navigate this to where sales tax is gonna be collected on many things where, where appropriate and not collected on things, where there's not an expectation of that right now anyways. So I'll continue to work on that. But the crux of this bill's still the same. That's about strengthening Utah's locally fo uh, locally grown food economy, helping small producers succeed and making Utah grown food more available to Utah families. And with that, I'm open to any questions.

Thank you, uh, sponsor and had at least part of this discussion offline. Um, in 12 years up here, uh, I can't remember how many raw milk discussions we've had. Um, I'm sure there have been some before. Well, at least 12. At least 12, yeah. Sometimes more session. Um, there are a lot of parts about this bill that, uh, I'm either neutral on or I really like all the sales tax provisions. The part that really gives me pause is the raw milk product. Would you please kind of talk to, talk me through this line that we've always tried to draw between? The science shows us that the pathogen load and raw milk is greater than, uh, it is in processed milk, pasteurized milk. And the minute that, uh, outbreak occurs in a, in a raw milk product, uh, the news media grabs that story. And the rest of the industry, that's a commercial industry going through pasteurization, feels like their product and they're getting hurt. That's kinda what it always comes down to. And, and then, and so we try to, to get the edge, we try to make sure that, that we've got a different color on the bottle cap, we make sure we got all those advertising, but here, we've just taken everything away and just said, it's okay. Just sell raw milk. And I'm still having a hard time navigating this space for the rest of the industry.

Yeah. All good questions that you've wrestled with for 12 years. So, um, uh, yeah, I guess, I guess it's a, again, I just go back to the buyer beware type thing. That, that, uh, there are lots of things that we sell that are problematic and, and we just trust consumers to do what's best for them. And so, um, if there's a path to be had on this, I'm certainly open to those conversations still. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Uh, good afternoon, Mr. Chairman. My name's Amber Brown, deputy Commissioner with the Department of Agriculture and Food. Um, I think in, in hearing from Senator Colmore, um, we support the goals that he has about local food and increasing the availability of local food. Um, we do have some concerns with respect to the raw milk portion of the bill, and we, you know, we hope that we can continue to have conversations and get some of those addressed. Um, in, in the, in the current version of the bill, it does deregulate raw milk and remove the department's, um, responsibility with respect to those products. Um, like Senator Sandall mentioned, these products are, you know, a little bit riskier than, than pasteurized milk products. And we would like to make sure that if there was an outbreak, you know, we're all about increasing availability and potential deregulation. Um, but if there was an outbreak, we wanna be able to trace the outbreak. And under this bill, if raw milk is considered under the home consumption and Homemade Food Act, we would not have any information about products that are being sold and where they're being sold. And so it would be very difficult to track down the source of an issue, um, a producer that might have practices that are leading to, you know, increased risk and increased outbreak potential. And we would not be able to take action to stop that. Um, and so that, that's our main concern. We've been, there's a couple of raw milk bills that have been introduced already this session that are both in, um, HHS or one one's been passed out, HB 1 79. Um, we're working with Representative Shelley who's the sponsor of that legislation to try to kind of come to a compromise. Um, we support Representative Kohler's bill HB 2 83, but we're hoping between those two bills we can come to a compromise that's going to serve the needs of both producers and, and be able to get the department to support it. Or at least feel that, you know, we can manage the, um, raw milk program in a way that we're comfortable with, um, taking to account our, uh, purpose of protecting consumers and keeping them safe. So, just wanted to share that and I, I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to testify. Thank You. Thank you.

Y Yeah, I think, I think this is all part of a broader conversation potentially, so yeah, if we can.

Hi, Delaine England. I am representing Utah Eagle Forum and also United Women's Forum, and I am, I think I'm representing a lot of citizens as well, because I was raised drinking raw milk. I, I don't really like milk at all, but if I'm gonna drink milk, I'm gonna drink raw milk. But I have something that might be shocking to share with you, and that's sugar. Have you ever heard of it? It is an addictive mind altering drug, and yet I can walk into any store, any convenience store in a gas station, and I can buy it without a problem. And so I just suggest that this is just nothing more than an issue of freedom. Buyer beware, we know that it is a risk to drink raw milk, and so I just like love living in a state, in a country where we get to govern ourselves and decide for ourselves what we, uh, consume and what we don't. Thank you very much. Okay.

Am I good to Yes, please. Okay. Uh, my name's Lily and Hadley. I'm just here for myself. Um, I'm actually a real small scale local food producer. I have some dairy animals of my own. Um, currently I'm not able to do anything with them other than just milk 'em and drink the milk myself. Um, provide a couple pints a day for me and my husband. Um, I would love to get to the point that I can produce and sell for other people. Um, as it stands right now, it's just, it's pretty difficult to do anything with it. And, um, if you're interested in drinking raw milk in the state of Utah, I think it's to the point that the easiest thing to do is to buy a cow or a goat. Um, and I think that's pretty drastic measures to take if you're interested in consuming raw milk. Um, and on the side of all the other small scale products that people can produce locally, I just think it's, um, a great opportunity for us in a capitalistic economy to be able to support the little guy and, you know, give, give small scale producers the opportunity to succeed just as much as Walmart and WinCo. So, thank you.

Uh, thank you Mr. Chair. Spencer Gibbons from the Utah Farm Bureau. Um, I am also, uh, in addition to an agricultural, uh, organization, uh, advocate. I also am a dairyman, commercial dairyman up in Cash Valley. Uh, I certainly appreciate the sponsor's desire to, uh, try to get local food in the hands of people who, who want it. Uh, just as a PSA, if you go into any grocery store, you can buy locally produced milk, all of the milk that we produce in Utah, except for just a very small portion that goes to Las Vegas, we consume in Utah. So you can go to your grocery store shelf and buy a gallon of milk, uh, and know with confidence this was produced in Utah outside of one or two, two brands, and they're, uh, organically produced, uh, products. Uh, so, uh, I, I am so pleased that you, you're open to, you know, trying to figure out how we can, uh, address this. There are, there are other bills that we are, are working with the sponsors with those as well. Uh, we do have pause. I will just say this as a, as a guy who fourth generation dairyman, um, I know the risks associated with, uh, not only just consuming raw milk, I've, I can, I've consumed it my entire life, but, uh, even the very best people with the, with the greatest intent, with the most sophisticated equipment, uh, still have problems. And so, uh, I do, I do have some concern, uh, about the traceability and just opening the floodgate, uh, for anyone to be able, if they wanna milk a cow tied to the swing set and then run it on over to the farmer's market. Um, I do have concern. I, I do think there's a, a public health risk that, um, that I think we just need to be cautious and careful about. Uh, so we will, uh, look forward to working with the, the senator of, you know, looking at what kind of compromise we can work out. Um, but as a, as the bill is written right now, we do have some concerns. So thank you.

Sarah Patterson, um, red Acre Farm and Center down in southern Utah, Cedar City area. I have a small farm stand and farm, and we do, most of our products are sold directly to consumer, but it, um, I think it will be really wonderful when we're at a farmer's market right now, there is some confusion with the taxes. If I have raw produce, it's untaxed. If I sell, um, like jam and acute jar, then that becomes taxed and everything on the table becomes taxed. And it's confusing between farmer's, market managers and other things. So I think that that, um, clarifying and cleaning up this tax law will be really great for people who are selling directly to a consumer at a farmer's market. And the other part that I love about this bill is there are many people who are small producers in their home. We have a 12 by 12 farm stand. It's really tiny. And I would love to be able to sell some of their products in my farm stand that are a neighbor that don't wanna have a farm stand or aren't zoned for it, and could bring it over to me, and that we could help, um, sell their stuff. So I think that there is definitely some great things in this bill to help some really small producers, and I'm really glad that we're looking at this and bringing it forward. So thank you.

So, apologies. Uh, my name is Gina Cornea and I'm here representing Utahans Against Hunger. And we really wanna thank, um, Senator Comore for bringing this, uh, bill forward. We really like the removing the sales tax on food portion, but in addition to that, this bill really will, we believe, expand access to food, especially in rural communities where some people may have to drive hours to get a loaf of bread, or there's not good produce in their grocery stores. We know that that's a challenge. So it offers access to food in parts of the state where we know are food deserts. But the other thing that it also could expand access to folks who are using SNAP benefits in those rural communities. And that really, that brings economic activity into that community. So thank you. I appreciate your time.

Oh, I'm sorry. I'm in Salt Lake. Thank you. Appreciate it.

Yeah, I was kind of teeing off of a comment made about four commenters ago, which is fine, but you know, in a way to kind of combine, uh, last, the last bill we heard in this one, I never wanted to own a boat, but I've always wanted a friend with a boat. Um, I never wanted to own a cow, but I wouldn't mind having a friend with a cow. Um, and just want to tell anybody who does doesn't, doesn't know. And 2024, the legislature passed House Bill 1 0 4, which allows cow sharing. And Senator Vickers, I have some friends in your district that are sharing a cow with their neighbors. So like they get seven families and they each milk it once a week and take the milk home, which I think is pretty cool. Um, so there is that. Um, and, uh, I'll be supporting the bill. Thank you.

I'll make the motion that we favor favorably recommend this bill. Okay.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, I'm gonna actually support that motion right now, um, with the, uh, with the caveat that, uh, I can't su be because I like so much of the bill and what you're doing, and I like to get local food to, to people, uh, with the caveat that, um, I'm gonna watch and see if the raw milk portion changes before we do something on the floor. But because I'm very concerned about all the things we've done for 12 years to try to make sure that we protect the whole industry in, in an outbreak situation. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I appreciate the support and it will be my commitment that the raw milk portion will be, will be worked on. Um, uh, I, I'll hope, hope and intend to meet with the representatives from U DAF Farm Bureau, uh, the sponsors in the house of the other bills. And see, see what we can work out. So by the time this hits the floor, there will be something different dealing with raw milk, and then the tax, the tax issue I've gotta work out as well too. So we will continue to work on that.

Hold on, hold on. I'll explain that a little bit. Anybody who is in committee on this bill saw that raw milk issues really dominated this bill. I've removed all raw milk issues out of this bill, so we don't need to talk about that. So, so that's the substitute you're going to, you uh, do we have a, we have the motion to substitute.

Okay. So I made this bill a lot, a lot more simple now. And the central purpose of this bill is to make locally grown and homemade food more readily available to Utah consumers. Sure. Um, across Utah, we have many small farmers home producers and family who sell families who sell things like homemade bread jams, honey salsa, fruits, and other locally produced goods at farmer's markets and direct to sale locations. But these people aren't really operating like large commercial businesses. They're just neighbors trying to provide for their families and contribute to the local economy. So this bill builds on that strong tra tradition. It removes any unnecessary and effective signage requirements for direct to sale farmer's markets while still maintaining transparency that those products are not inspected or regulated by the state. Uh, second, the bill clarifies that producers can sell not only directly, but also through a designated representative, meaning a trusted partner or a contractor who can help them distribute or sell home and products when they can't always be physically present. And the bill makes clear that producers retain ownership of their goods unless they agree otherwise, which provides important protection and clarity for small businesses. Um, so it also provides for clarity in a tax exemption. And the substitute does that as well, which simply says that there, there's always been an exemption for this, but sometimes the interpretation of that exemption gets a little bit weird at farmer's markets where some things are tax exempt, other things are not. So this simply says sales of food and food ingredients are prepared food by a home cook and it defines home cook. So pretty much everything at a farmer's market would be tax exempt. And I'm trying to figure out, we've got a large fiscal note right now, or I think there's actually no fiscal note right now, but, but based on that clarification, I'm hoping that the fiscal note's not significant. There was a concern before that it would ca uh, get, uh, food trucks cut up in that and that was never the intent. And so, uh, we'll, we'll figure out what the fiscal note means before third reading, obviously, but, uh, that is the bill.

Ahead. Thank you, president. The sponsor agreed to yield Senator Cullimore? Yes, I believe yield is correct, yes. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, president. What, um, would this cause any injury or harm for industry? Um, like in the raw milk issue, if you have an outbreak, is there any protections or guardrails in place for industry, um, farm Bureau or those, uh, any of those agencies or partners? Uh, where would they be on this? Senator Cullimore?

Uh, since Raw Milk got out of it, I've not really talked to them about those specific issues. Those issues were not really raised with my bill. And so really we already have farmer's markets and it's, it's basically just creating the same standard that we already have in farmer's markets, but it's letting locally, locally grown and produce food. They can contract with somebody, right, right now to, to sell that you have to do direct to sale. But somebody who's trying to make a small business out of this, but not really like becoming a big distributor, they may want to assign their right to do that to somebody else at a farmer's market or a co-op or something like that. That's what this bill does. It just allows them, but there still has, they still retain ownership and the same liability they would as if it was, uh, just a traditional farmer's market.

Thank Thanks President. So, um, just yeah, make sure I understand it. So this doesn't change anything on current raw milk. There, there's no milk in this bill anymore. Okay. That helps. Thank you. Thank You.

Thank you Mr. President. I am wondering about the, um, the signage that's removed, the signage requirement that's removed from, uh, direct to sale farmers, um, at a direct to sales farmer's market. And I'm wondering about how buyers, final buyers will understand if, uh, foods are prepared, uh, by a home cook and the, uh, the risks, uh, that may be involved with that.

So what I've heard is that the signage at Farmer's markets has not been really effective anyways. And the idea is that when you go there, it's kind of a buyer beware, you know, what you're getting into. And so rather than having arbitrary signs here or there, they were just saying, let's just generally have signage that says if you're buying at a farmer's market, you know what you're getting into.

May. Um, so I know that, uh, in the Pacific Islander community, they often have, um, plate sales for different, uh, events where they're, um, uh, trying to raise money. And I know that in the past they've had to make sure that there was labeling that said that it was, that food was prepared at home and not, um, looked at by, uh, um, any kinda licensing or, or anything. Does this bill impact that at all?

Senator? Yeah. If, if you're doing direct to sale for, for food produced at home or, or food that you've produced, then you have to do, I mean, let me see where it says that. I don't, I think we remove that, that type of signage requirement. Um, what what we're saying is if you go to, if you go to that type of a market, you can only sell that type of food, you know, so that everybody knows if you're going there, this is food that does not require signage because it is not being inspected by a state or local authority.

Thank you, Mr. President. Uh, just to clarify, make sure that I understand, even if it's, if food is not, if food is prepared in by a home cook and not sold at a farmer's market, for example, at somebody's home, then the understanding is that it is a home cook and signage is, is implied. Is that correct?

That's correct. Baltimore, yes.

Okay. Thank You. Thank you.

Thank you. Uh, my questions to the sponsor are related to the sales tax exemption. And I'll start off by saying that we have exempted a lot of things from sales tax that are, uh, you know, kind of small operations. We don't want compliance with sales tax law to stop kids from selling lemonade in the neighborhood. Um, or, you know, to sell, To, To be a hamper on, uh, on businesses. They're starting up, they start a home, home cooked meal. But I'd say a lot of, uh, vendors that I see at Farmer's Market are fairly sophisticated and that farmer's markets are just one part of a much larger, larger business model. And, uh, so an example I will use is Volcker's Bakery. So they sell bread, they sell a lot of bread, I see them at farmer's markets. Um, I understand from the sponsor's speech, uh, in introducing the bill that their bread would now be tax exempt under this bill is because it's sold at a farmer's market. Is that correct?

If it meets the definition of home food that I'm, I'm trying to find for you right here. I apologize. I should have had this up, but it, um, okay. Home cook needs an individual who prepares food and food agreements or pr or prepared food exclusively in a private, non-commercial home kitchen. So Volcker arguably is not a private non-commercial home kitchen, and they would still be required to collect sales tax.

Okay. I, I'm glad that I, I think in your speech you said that food sold, actually, I think you said everything sold in a farmer's market would be tax exempt, but what you're saying is that just home food from a home based kitchen is tax exempt at a farmer's market. And, and as I understand, it's not a part of this bill, but other homegrown produce is exempt as well.

Yeah, correct. I was, yeah. Thank you.

If that's the limitation, Then, then my concern is, uh, not, not there.

Okay. With, with that and with the understanding that, uh, the whole tax and detention thing may come out anyways, if the fiscal, depending on how the fiscal note comes back, uh, I would move that we read first substitute Senate Bill two 17 for a third time.

Thank you Mr. Speaker. Um, this bill removes the signage requirement for Direct to Sale Farmer's Market. It clarifies when a producer or a producer's designated representative may sell homemade food product direct to sale at a direct to sale location. And it provides that a producer retains ownership of a homemade food that is distributed, sold, delivered, held, stored, or otherwise offered for sale, um, unless otherwise agreed to by the producer. And it exempts the sales tax on food and food ingredients for pro prepared food sold by a home cook, including homemade food products sold at a direct to sale farmer's market. And that is the bill.

Uh, thank you Mr. Speaker pro tem. Motion to amend.

Yes. I'd like to strike lines 7 15 7 16 and line 2 6 9 9, Line 7 15, 7 16 and and 26 99.

Yes, Mr. Speaker pro tem, uh, this is a, uh, this amendment, uh, simply removes the sales tax exemption, uh, for, uh, food that is prepared in a home kitchen. The reason behind this would be is that under our current tax code, occasional sellers are already exempted from sales tax. Uh, the concern is this could create a loophole that just because it's prepared in a home kitchen, that they're now exempt from sales tax with no limit on the amount of transactions that they are engaging in as long as it's prepared in a certain location. So kind of to our philosophy of, uh, lowering the weight, the rate, and widening the base, uh, this has the potential of narrowing that base by creating a, a loophole that could be exploited. And again, occasional sellers are already exempted under the code.

That was my motion, yes. Representative Ivory eight

Thank you Mr. Speaker Pro Tem. I would like to be sure that it is still allowed for people to sell at a farmer's market if they've prepared the food at home and be tax exempt. How would we find that out?

Uh, substitute motion

Motion to circle so we can work out some of the questions.

I would support that. Okay.

I would support that The motion is

SB two 17 S One.

Yes. Um, we, it was circled briefly for a discussion about an amendment and since that time, I, I don't know, do you want me to say what the bill is about again? Okay. So since that time, we have found out from the sales, um, from the tax commission and the streamlined sales tax governing board that the bill is just fine as it is and no amendment is needed. So we can go ahead and vote on it.

Okay, so this is just a bill that, um, it, it clarifies when a producer can, can have a designated representative to sell food and it provides that the, the producer retains ownership of the food unless there is an agreement between the producer and the designated agent and it exempts from state sales, tax food and food ingredients made and prepared by a home cook.