H.B. 209 Voting Amendments: transcript

That's correct. And I'll be speaking to the substitute.

Chair and members of the committee. It's good to be here again. Uh, I swore I'd never do another election bill, but here I am. And, uh, but I really, I really like this bill. Uh, and I know there's a lot of people wondering why we need this bill. And I think the, one of the key reasons I'd like to start with this and then get into the details of the bill is that we want everybody that lives in the state of Utah to, uh, be feel like they can participate in our elections and vote. And, uh, but there are certain things that have to be done before you can participate in an election. And one of those is to be a US citizen. And that goes for the every election we have in the state and every election at the federal level as well. So what this bill does basically is, uh, allows, uh, our elect our, uh, election officers to, uh, have a process to independently determine whether a registered voter is not a citizen of the United States. And, uh, basically what it will do is allow, uh, um, the responsibility of showing that you're a US citizen to be on those who are, would technically not be a US citizen. And, uh, so the bill does not really come across. It's not meant to, uh, talk to people or refer to people who are already citizens who've already been registered to vote longstanding citizens. Uh, and the other thing too, to keep in mind is that if someone shows that they're a citizen and with the proper, the proper documents and the ways that we've outlined to show that you're a US citizen, that stays with you so you don't have to do it over and over again. So, uh, registering to vote, you just have to show that you're a citizen. And, uh, and that's the, the main purpose of the bill. The main purpose of the bill really is to make sure that we do everything we can to ensure that US citizens are voting in Utah elections. Now, if someone cannot show that they are a US citizen, they can still participate in the federal elections. And so there's, uh, there's no, uh, qualms with that. Technically, they still have to be a US citizen, but if the federal for federal elections, we are not, uh, allowed to, uh, show that they're, uh, prove that they are a US citizen, um, unless there's compelling reasons that they, it's very clear that they're not. But, um, so if someone wants to vote in the, uh, in a federal election, um, they, they can do that. Anybody who, uh, claims to be a US CI citizen can do that. But if you want to participate in every election that's in the state of Utah, federal, state, and county and so on, um, you would have to show that you are a US citizen. Once that's done, you're done. And, uh, then you can continue to vote in Utah elections. That is the forget anything important. So I think there, there's probably gonna be questions and I'll probably talk a little bit more about different aspects. Move, I'm sorry, someone move this up unless you already did. Yeah, he, he's aware of it. Okay. So, uh, that's the, uh, that's the bill in, in a nutshell. So I'm open to questions, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair. My my question is, how many cases of individuals without US citizenship have attempted to vote in state elections? And has that been documented in Utah?

I don't have that information in front of me. Representative. Um, hopefully none. Um, that would be ideal. But I'm sure that there have been, and I'm not sure if there's documentation on that. Uh, some of our election officials are here and maybe they can answer that question.

And then another, just another question to, to ask if that's okay In the future. Yes, Go ahead. What safeguards are in place to ensure that an individual who an elected official suspects is not being a citizen like maybe me, um, would have, how would they have adequate time to provide proof of citizenship ahead of an election?

Um, okay, there's, there's different way, there's different ways to look at that. First of all, this bill is, is not gonna go into effect. Uh, well, it will go into effect as soon as the governor signs it, but it will apply to only the general election in like the end of this year, 2026,

Right? I guess my question is, what if I walk in and, and, um, there's a clerk who doesn't think I'm a citizen? Well, so what are the safeguards to protect me, a US citizen from not being stereotyped or being called a non-citizen because they suspect I'm not a citizen?

Well, the, in that case, um, I would be very, first of all, I'd be very surprised at that if that would ever even happen because you've already totally established your citizenship. If there is a, a question then there, then the, the official would work with the person and then there's a, there's a cure per, there's a cure time. And, uh, and the the also, also a provisional, uh, ballot can be done. You would still be able to vote. You just have, uh, a certain amount of time that you would then have to show that, uh, you are, are, are a citizen of the us And in that case, uh, it would only be on state, state elections. So your federal, your vote, however you voted for federal officials would just go through.

Okay. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Thank you. We good? Okay. We're good. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, so I'm just a little curious about the processor and you'll have to excuse my ignorance. So what databases are they looking at to confirm citizenship?

There? Uh, there's different ways to do it. Uh, lemme pull up the list. So I just have it in front of me. I'll just start at the top. The, you've probably heard of the save database, the system, systematic alien verification for entitlement programs. That's one way. Um, our driver's license, uh, division, when people apply for a driver's license or a state id, they have to show documentation that they're US citizens. And that is communicated to the, the, uh, the Lieutenant Governor's office, the elections office, so that, that is, uh, captured. So when people declare that they're a US citizen, they have to kinda show documentation. If they're, uh, new immigrants that have reached the point of naturalization, they can show their naturalization papers. And, uh, there, there's a few other things I think, but those are the, those would be the key ones to show. They just have to have accurate documentation that shows that they're assistant of the United States.

So I want, may I ask a follow up question? You May No, I, I think someone spoke but I didn't hear, so I'm gonna move on. Um, so I wanna focus on the, the new immigrants here. Um, so they can just present naturalization papers. They don't have to have any sort of verification online. Is that, is that what you're saying?

Yes, there is a, an, uh, they call it an, is it called the alien registration? Yeah, I think it's alien registration number. Yeah, there's an alien registration number. And I think, I guess, uh, all p all uh, non-US citizens that are in the United States legally can get this number. And as you go through the, the process to become a US citizen, that stays with them and it gets updated. So, uh, ultimately it, that number, that's one of the ways they can show too, is uh, when they become a naturalized citizen, then that number will get updated and they can use that number wherever they need to go at that point to show, to change their citizen's, uh, status. And that includes here in Utah for the, uh, for this, for this process as well.

But would that be confirmed via some sort of online database or government database?

Yeah, well that, the immigration, I assume the immigration office gives that number and it just follows 'em. And so when they, when they get naturalized, there's a process that shows that they are Now,

Do you know if there's any la in between? I'm just, I'm just thinking about, I Dunno, The hypothetical where you have someone that's a newly naturalized citizen and

They become that on election day, they can use the hard copy documentation as well. So like when you go to the net naturalization ceremony here in Rotunda that we have every month or every other month or whatever it is, they get a, they get a certificate. And so that would be documented enough. And then as they move forward in their new lives as US citizens, they will have that document. They'll also have their, that number, uh, that they can show to different places. It's gonna be, I'm assuming a lot of different places, you know, where you've been living here legally. Uh, as a, as a non-citizen, you're gonna have, uh, started using a lot of different kinds of services where now it's gonna be beneficial to make sure they all know that you're a, a US citizen. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. And I got a, a a couple of questions because I'm thinking of a, this particular scenario, I've got a daughter, for example, she's 22, she doesn't have a driver's license. Um, and, uh, one thing she noticed, there was a couple of things that she wanted to do. She wanted to rent an apartment, she wanted to open a bank account and, uh, hard to do so she got a state ID instead. Um, 'cause she noticed that there was a lot of things you just physically cannot do. She couldn't fly on a plane, she couldn't do a lot of things without, um, an ID of any kind. And so I guess I, I, I'm trying to, uh, ask a couple of roundabout questions. So there's some discussion about, um, verification of id or if somebody's coming in that might be profiled in some way, or even my daughter who may not know, have the traditional ID of any kind, would, would simply just providing the ID on site be enough to establish, um, the, uh, their, uh, their immigration status at the time of the election?

Yeah, I think, uh, the, the best way to do it is if she, she probably has to show some form of, uh, identification that she's a US state id, yeah, a US citizen. So she's trying to get a state id. She probably just like a driver's license have to show, uh, citizenship, uh, US citizenship. Once she, once she does that, that's kept. And so, uh, uh, uh, election officials can look that up. And then the, uh, then as far as a non-US citizen, um, the, uh, the save program that we talked about earlier would also have that verification in there. So when driver's licenses and IDs are issued, you have to show us citizenship that is communicated to the elections system we have here in Utah. So that is readily available to election officials.

Great. And, and Juab to verify that can be done at the time of voting as well, as far as providing that ID or does that have to be done?

Uh, it's done at the, the voter registration point.

Okay. So, but if they wanna register to vote at a location and vote at the same time, they can do that?

I would, I would assume so. We have some of our county clerks here that can probably answer that Question. I'm seeing some nods. Yes.

Yeah. Okay. Um, are they nodding? Okay. And Mr. Chair, I do have a couple of, uh, questions. I'll be brief of that. All right. I am, I am not surprised.

I'm just kidding. I love all these guys over Here. There was some question about the lag time on, on individuals and, and, and just to establish, like, our elections are pretty clear as far as when they occur. Mm-hmm. So an average person that's interested in voting should have plenty of at lead time as far as knowing when that timeframe is, as far as what needs to be done. Yeah,

I I, I'm not gonna answer that kind of question for those people, but the, there, you're absolutely right. The dates are very, very clear. One of the other reasons that this is going to affect the only election this year will effect, will be the general election next November, is to give our, uh, election officials time to get everything established that will need to be, but also to allow people who may be in that situation where they're not sure if the record shows that they're a citizen now or whatever. So it gives them, uh, opport time. It'll give them time to get all the ducks in a row, so to speak.

Thank you. And one last question, and this has to do with driver's licenses because I've been working in that space for a little bit. So it appears that in Utah, that there's, there's, there's three different types of driver's license or privilege type, uh, cards. You can get one as the privilege card, which, uh, is typically for those that aren't in the country, legally, there is a temporary driver's license that's offered to individuals that are not legal US citizens, but they are in the country legally. And then there's a driver's license, which requires you to be a US citizen to get in the state of Utah. Um, and I believe that there are very clear markings on them on which license is which. Is there anything in here that would in any way confuse, uh, uh, an election official as far as between these temporary driver's licenses or privilege card and a driver's license when it comes to determining whether or not they are gonna be eligible for, uh, voting? Yeah,

I, uh, can only, uh, speak speculative on that. And we have some driver's license people here that could probably answer that question better than me. But, uh, I, to me, I think the o the only real confusion, and I'm not sure it's would be that much confusion, would be if they're going strictly by the real ID insignia, because that can be a little bit confusing because it could, you could have that because you are a US citizen, but also, uh, my understanding is that people that are in the country who are non-citizens, who, uh, can get the real ID insignia on their driver's license. As far as the other types, I'm gonna defer to our who's, who's here,

Thank you Mr. Chair. My name's Hillary Kelner, deputy Commissioner for the Utah Department of Public Safety. Um, so we have the three different types of licenses. The one that Representative Maloy was um, explaining is our regular Class D driver license. This driver license you can get if you're a citizen of the United States or a permanent resident, which is, um, a legal status that allows you to be in the country for about 10 years. Um, so that would be the only confusing factor. It's if you have that one class, regular Class D, it's, you have both US citizens and permanent residence. For all the other categories, you really don't have much confusion. 'cause the term limited license has term limited right on the license. And then the driving privilege card states that it's not, and not, you're not able to use that as a legal id.

Okay. So just to clarify then, that, that term limited, that temporary one that expires when their Visa status expires, that is clearly printed on the license itself? Yeah,

It has the same expiration date as their legal status would expire. And then it says term limited in a large portion of the top of the license

And this, but this bill doesn't necessarily differentiate that specific delineation between the two? No. No. Okay. Thank you.

I think there, I think those are fair questions though because, uh, the way it works for a class, it's Class D, right? Uh, yes. Class D driver's license spec and, and especially if the real ID insignia is on there, the, uh, the proof of U and ci, US CI citizenship has been taken care of at the, when they applied for the driver's license so that that can be checked. And so if they have, if that permanent status, would they have a Class D or not?

Yeah, so if they have the permanent, uh, residence card, they can get that Class D driver license with the, that's real ID compliant. But when they are going through the process of registering to vote, at least through the driver license division, whether it's for a driver license or an ID card, um, when they, even if they were a permanent resident and they marked, let's say they get confused, so, or even on purpose, they marked the section where it says, I'm a US citizen and I want to register to vote based on the documentation that they would have provided. It wouldn't allow them to be registered to vote, so they wouldn't be sent to the database, um, of our voting registry system in the state.

But to be clear, an election official on site registering someone to vote and they mark that box and they provide a driver's license, there's, they would need some sort of training specifically to say that if it says term limited, that this does not qualify. Correct. And that's not necessarily outlined in this bill is just, that's just a training issue. Is that fair to say?

Yeah, it would, they wouldn't, they would need to know the difference between the regular driver license and then the term limited driver license.

Yeah. And, and the election officials can look it up too. So to, to get that, that, uh, US citizen status.

Thank you Mr. Chair. Just a quick question. Um, I'm curious, uh, because I know that voter voter registration, you've got three types, right? You've got the public, private, and withheld. So I am wondering if this information is for someone who has public, uh, voter registration, would their status of which type of ballot they receive be public at all?

I don't believe that is the case. Would that be the case answer that we answer? Sure.

Thank you. Yep. Thomas, I from Office of Legislative Research and General Counsel always give my disclaimer, I am the draft of the bill, so I'm answering questions. I like that. But, uh, I don't testify for or against the bill. Um, currently this, uh, first substitute provides that if you provided proof, for example, a copy of a birth certificate that you were a US citizen, that that information itself is private under grandma. It doesn't specify these other terms. Uh, however, uh, there's a public amendment online with Representative Blue Bay that would specify that. And the other two things would, would be is, uh, that particular amendment says would add to the private category that you can al it's also a private record, whether or not they're a citizen and a private record, whether or not they are limited to voting a federal ballot.

Wonderful. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. I have a, a couple of questions if you don't mind. Some of these might be able to be answered by the sponsor or by, uh, attorneys or by our election office. First, I wanted to say that I think the, there are some good improvements to the Regi voter registration process here, and I commend the sponsor for those improvements. The, it, it authorizes an election officer to determine if someone is a citizen or not. There are state election officers or Lieutenant Governor's office and county. What happens if there's a dispute between a county clerk, county election officer who says, uh, I don't see any evidence that this person is a citizen versus a state election officer who says, well, I think they meet the criteria. How does that get resolved?

Well, I think, uh, I would say right off the bat that the Kanosh clerks and the Lieutenant Governor's office are gonna have the same, uh, systems in the same responsibility to determine US citizenship with the, with the pro appropriate documents. So if a county clerk finds that they do not believe someone is a US citizen, they, they need to go through the checklist basically. And I think the, the save, uh, program is probably one of the best, um, among all the others that are just as good. But the, uh, I, I know the Utah County clerk has the save has, has save is part of their process. Uh, I'm told the Lieutenant Governor's office does as well. I'm not sure, I can't speak to the other clerks, but I think that's probably one of the best ways to, uh, probably figure out if there, if there's a conflict between one group versus another within the elected election officials ranks.

Thank you. And a few follow ups, if I may, is, is there a field in our voter system today that indicates if someone is a citizen, a US citizen or not? Is there a field In, in our voter registration database that indicates who is a US citizen or who is not?

Uh, I'm gonna defer to Ryan. Yes, there is. Yes. They're nodding in their heads, yes.

Thank you. Um, on, I I wanted to move to section, uh, line 12 73, 12 77 area. And you're in the sub. This Is in the sub. Thank you. I'm, I'm, I'm looking at the sub and, and thank you for the improvements you've made in the substitutes. I think, uh, my, my understanding just to be clear, is that this, when someone registers to vote, they prove they're a citizen. Uh, that after that they just show evidence of, of who they are and they can vote. This is not something that's gonna happen every time they vote.

That's exactly right.

This, the, the language here on 12, Which, which lines are you on? Uh, 1273 when we're talking about a, a federal ballot or 1277, only a voter who has at the time of voter registration or before voted Pro provided documentary proof of United States citizen may cast a standard ballot. This otherwise is a provisional ballot. And there's similar language, uh, 1277 of the, they, they must prove, show that proof, otherwise they have a provisional balance ballot. Excuse me. So my, my question or document concern is this seems to put the burden of proof for our existing, uh, voters on the individual to show that not necessarily the clerk or an audit, to show that they are not So by, by default, is there a scenario where this, where we could see the result of if someone hasn't come in and proved that they're a citizen, then they'll be given a provisional ballot. Whereas I would think that operationally we would want to assume that voters who are already registered already have been voting for years and years are presumed to be US citizen unless there's evidence that they're not. Yes. Do you see the difference there? Yeah,

That would be correct. And, and you, you actually hit on something I think is very important, which is even if there is a, a question to their US citizenship, they can go, they can go ahead and do a, a vote and uh, and then they, then they have a certain amount of time. I believe the time is, uh, up until a day before the canvassing of an election.

I get that. Yeah. Okay. I I I would love a legal opinion on this is I I I would like to, to presume, if you're already a voter in the state of Utah, the presumption should be that, that you are a US citizen. Yeah. You are innocent until proven otherwise. Yeah. That's,

That, that's exactly what it is.

I'm concerned that this language could be used by someone to say you're guilty unless you prove you're innocent. And is that maybe something we could, does anyone else share that concern?

The, uh, I think, uh, to answer your question, if you read the line that you're talking about 2 12 73, is that the one Y Yes. It's there. And I think also at the, Yeah, I'll go ahead and read it. Only a voter who has, at the time of voter registration or before voting provided documentary proof of United States citizenship may vote a standard ballot that proof has been long since established and it goes with you. So no matter what, you don't really have to do it again unless there is a question. But, um, usually it, what we're trying to show is that people who are non-US citizens have the burden of proof. And, uh, and when that's the case, if they can show that they are a US citizen, then everything's, and then from that point on, they can vote and that will carry on with them. So they don't, they would be like anybody else that's a longstanding US citizen. Does that make sense?

Thank you. I I I, I, I agree with your intent. I'm concerned whether this meets, meets the intent, and maybe you could talk for a minute, or maybe our elections office could talk about how are county clerks and election officials going to decide if someone gets a federal ballot or a standard ballot? By default, everyone gets the standard, or if they do not have the US citizenship field in their voter's registration today, they would get only the federal ballot until they come in and prove that they're a US citizen.

Yes. That's, that's the case. Uh, anybody who wants to vote, vote in the federal election will be able to if they declare themselves a US citizen. And that's not an area where we're going to try and dispute or we're allowed to dispute only as it relates to Utah elections. Can we do that? And that's the intent.

Thanks. I think the question is by, by default, are you, and unless if that field that says you're a citizen is not already checked in the database, are you assumed to be a non-US citizen or, or not? Are we gonna,

Well, that might trigger, that might trigger a reaction to check if the, if the box is not checked that they're a US citizen. So, but then if they do the check and do their appropriate checks, then they could find that they are a US citizen and uh, then they are, they can go ahead and vote and they'll always be able to vote as a registered voter. Right.

Uh, thank, thank you. I I hope it will be proactive. Oh, sorry about that. Yep, go ahead. I, I, I hope we'll be proactive in that process and look forward to learning more about how that process will work. Thank you.

Yes. And, uh, and even if there is a dispute, uh, they will be able to use the provisional vote to go ahead and cast the ballot, but then they just have to clarify that for the, the, uh, Utah State portion of the ballot to count, they have to show their US citizenship before the timeframe, which is up until they have a, up until one day before the canvassing of, of a particular election.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. And I just, I was, um, not necessarily confused, but the previous question, I think lines 1 0 5 to 1 21 of your subs highlight. If there is conflict or it is in question, then you just provide one of these documents that verify it. And a state ID is gonna be the easiest form. And since we've been discussing this, I've, uh, I know when I take my kiddos to Thanksgiving point, just to check into the Curiosity Museum, I have to show them my state ID to verify I am Candace Pucci, checking in with my pass. Uh, when I go to Costco, I have to have my Costco card, which they used, my state ID to verify for me to even walk in the door. There are so many things, buying alcohol, buying tobacco products, buying cannabis, entering bars or nightclub, checking into a hotel, running a car, boarding a flight, crossing the border, opening a bank account, cashing a check, applying for a loan, voting, entering, secured government buildings, court appearances whenever you interact with law enforcement, buying or activating a phone plan, picking up tickets, uh, for a concert. Uh, medical registration prescriptions all require an id. And I would argue that voting is the most sacred of all the things we get to do as Americans. And so I, I, uh, appreciate your work on this and, and just wanted to clarify. I I think we're overcomplicating it a little bit. You're just asking that they provide a state ID or one of the other documents that is outlined clearly in your bill, correct?

That's correct. Thank you. Okay, thank you.

Uh, Brian McKenzie. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Oh, sorry. Gotcha. There we go. Uh, thank you Mr. Chair. Brian McKenzie, Davis County Clerk, while the clerks of the state of Utah have not taken a formal position on this bill, I am here to speak in favor of this bill and I'd like to explain why. Um, we know that our Utah constitution requires a person to be a US citizen in order to vote. We know that, but we also know that we don't want to do something that inadvertently, uh, disenfranchises a citizen of our state from voting. This bill takes both of those interests into play as it balances those out. Just, just to help us understand what this bill does, okay, um, current registered voters, what we're going to do is this requires us to go through and do a, a, a review of the voter registration roles. Um, it allows us a number of tools to do that. The first and foremost is the driver's license record. So if you have gone in and applied for a driver's license or a state ID or privileged card or whatever it might be, you are required to provide documentary evidence of your legal status in the United States. If that established your citizenship with driver's license, it's going to record that. So that's 97 to 98% of our active registered voters have done that. What's great about this bill is it allows us to utilize a tool that is already in place to verify that. So if you've already verified your citizenship with driver's license, you're good to go with registration. Now what this also does is it allows a, a reasonable amount of alternative options for us to verify that if we go through that process and identify that we're unable to verify you. Uh, it allows ample time for us to notify you as a voter and say, Hey, we need you to provide us something else in order to make sure you can vote. It will not remove you from the voter registration rules. You'll still be registered, but until you provide that documentation, you'll be voting a provisional or a, uh, a federal only ballot. Now, if you're a brand new registered voter, you have ample time when you come in and register to vote. If you don't have the primary ID such as a driver's license or a state ID card, that's okay. There's alternative options for you. Um, one clarification, I wanna be very sure on this. We are not utilizing the physical driver's license as proof of citizenship. What we're utilizing is the information that's recorded with the driver's license division, which indicates that you're a citizen. So sometimes there's some confusion with driver privilege, cards, ID cards, driver's license, all that. We don't care what type of card you're utilizing, what we're caring about is the number to where we can tie that back to your record. Apologize if that was a little bit long, but I wanted to provide some clarification to the committee. Thank you. Alright,

Thank you Mr. Chair. Uh, so I'd be curious to get your perspective. Would having two different types of ballots complicate your processes in terms of sorting accounting votes?

No. It really won't. Um, and this is why, because we currently utilize a federal only ballot for some of our voters it's primarily our military and overseas voters that, um, Utah was their last place of residence. So they still have a federal claim to utilize Utah as their voting location, but their residency may not be clear. So they would not be eligible for our local races. Those voters currently get a federal only ballot.

Okay. Thank you. Okay,

Thank you. My name is Anna g Graff. I am a resident of Roy, Utah and I am here representing myself. I just had some concerns about this bill that I wanted to bring up, uh, including just some personal experience. Keep, keep going, keep going. Um, that brought up some of those concerns for me. So we have through lines 3 39, 3 79, um, definition of valid voter identification that we've gone through. Uh, what that looks like, especially a lot of conversation about driver's licenses. Um, I'm concerned about confusion, uh, for voters as far as what a, uh, allowable driver's license would be. Um, just because there are those different types of driver's licenses, but also worried about, uh, impact on disabled communities, especially that may not be utilizing a driver's license and may be using a different form of ID that would not be accepted and would not then have them in that, uh, same database from the driver's license department. Um, some of my own questions were answered throughout this process, so, uh, bear with me just one moment. Um, my, I have three primary concerns, additional hardship on our voters, the potential for discrimination at the polls, and also the timeframe for resolution. I experienced a domestic violence divorce where my ex-husband withheld my documentation from me, and I, uh, did not know until last year that when it comes to proving your citizenship, a birth certificate and a certificate of live birth are not the same thing. Even if you've been able to use them to prove citizenship in some places, at some point that's gonna get flagged. And so I'm concerned about people going, um, being flagged, trying to show their citizenship and not having the proper documentation when they thought they were good. And also that amount of time that we have to remedy that when there's been a challenge. I don't know that that would be a sufficient amount of time for someone who had been in my situation

where it took literal years to get my documents back, as well as just the financial hardship of something like a passport as an option, or getting copies of a actual birth certificate shipped to you in time for something. So if the goal is to prevent even one ineligible voter when we don't actually know the number of ballots that have been cast in Utah, we don't have that, um, shared yet. At this point. I would just urge you to consider, um, how many people being blocked from being able to vote or having that unnecessary undue hardship. Um, as far as discrimination at the polls, especially, uh, to have that taken into consideration too. How many is too many there? And to close those loopholes to address any gaps that may be in our system. About

I'm Marilyn Ney. I represent myself. I'm a citizen from, uh, I live in American Fork, um, and I've been particularly interested in elections. I worked, um, part-time for a couple years in 22 and 23 in the election office, like six or eight weeks during the election, so had some experience there. I speak in favor of this bill. I think it's a great bill. I've worked with a couple of legislators, um, over the last year, and there are instances, whistleblowers who have come forward in situations that have come forward where we know there have been non-citizens who have been able to register to vote. Um, I have filed a couple of grammar requests. I think our systems have some, some issues and we have not been able to get the data. 'cause I think what would be great to know is what is the size of the problem we're addressing? And I haven't been able to get any information. The legislature, legislators involved haven't been able to, to be able to scope the size of the problem. Other than that, we know some people have gotten through the cracks. And so I think this bill addresses in a very consistent way and aligns with the current processes we have with the driver's license division and passing information to the election offices to be able to ensure that we only have US citizens voting in our elections. Thank you.

Um, it, it's, it's related to something the witness said, but I was wondering if we could phone a friend and have Ryan Callie come up.

Good afternoon and thank you for the opportunity to comment. My name is Lori Cartright. I live in Stansberry Park and I am representing Mormon Women for Ethical Government or MWE for short. And WG is a non-partisan grassroots organization dedicated to creating a more peaceful, just and ethical world. We believe electoral systems should be de designed to promote citizen participation. We oppose HB 2 0 9 because it complicates voting procedures and would disenfranchise certain voters and like appreciates efforts to keep elections secure. But limits on voter access should be proportional to the intended benefit. Non-citizen voting is extremely rare. Utah election laws and procedures are all ready, reliable, with established non-citizen voting laws and serious consequences for those who break them. Similar laws have also cost other states much more money than they initially projected in Arizona and Kansas. The state spends hundreds of thousands of dollars to implement, maintain, and defend the new system. Local government will also face ongoing costs and materials and staff time to verify documentation and maintain a two ballot system. Many citizens don't have driver's license passports or easy access to their birth certificate. When Arizona passed a similar law, it rejected 31,000 voter registration applications In five years, the vast majority of those rejections were of citizens. Another similar law was passed in Kansas a decade ago and was so cumbersome for voters and administrators that it was ultimately abandoned

This bill will be costly to state and local governments. We ask you to vote no on HB 2 0 9. Thank you.

My name is Ryan Kelly, I'm director of elections and the Lieutenant Governor's office. I, we have somebody from our office. We'll speak to the bill, but I'm happy to address the, the question, Mr. Chair.

I'm a little upset that he didn't preemptively answer it. Um, I

Have to know what it is before I can answer it. Well,

You come here enough, you should just know what we're gonna ask. But, uh, thank you for popping up. Um, I'm curious, has your office done an audit and, uh, to try to gauge if there is an issue with non-citizens voting?

Yes. We're in the middle of doing an audit. We don't have data pre to present yet, um, but we are in the middle of, of that audit. Um, overall we've been able to confirm that most if, I mean a very, very large number of the voters in our roles are US citizens, but we're still in the process of doing that. Once we're completed with that audit, we will definitely present the, the results and the, the things that we find in that audit.

Can I ask a follow up question or two?

Uh, do you have an anticipated end date for when the audit will be completed?

We, we don't yet. Um, we're working through it. It'll still be a little bit before we have the final, final results.

Has your office, are you able to con, I mean, we hear all these people showing up and saying, oh, I'm sure this has happened. I'm sure this has happened. Uh, do we have any evidence that this is regularly happening? And, and if so, by, by what amounts?

Yeah, we, we do have, um, four individuals that we have confirmed have registered, um, either by the time we identified those, um, individuals, um, or shortly thereafter, they were removed from the voter rolls. We're working on investigations on those individuals. And then we've also found one other that has not voted, but was registered to vote that we've confirmed is not a citizen. So, so there are some, it's a non-zero number. The other states that have done this, it, it is a non-zero number, but in these other states it is not a very large number.

And, and, sorry, last question. Um, I, I know you talked about them being registered. Do you have any information on whether or not these individuals have actually voted?

Uh, there, there are some that have voted at least once of those that are doing that, and those are an ongoing investigation and, and we'll present all of that in the final, um, results that we do.

But I think, and given the, the bill that's before us, I think it's important to, to discuss that.

And thank you. Thank you. Now, Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, just quickly, uh, when it comes to this audit, so if I understand correctly, since our ballots are are considered secret, we have to determine eligibility before they're counted, right? So if the process, because once, once you start the process of accounting, that's done more anonymously at that point. So I'm just, I'm questioning here if our verification process of identifying who is eligible to vote and if their citizenship is, is correct, if that process is being updated under this proposed statute, under this law, um, under the consideration that perhaps our current or previous criteria of determining eligibility may not have been sufficient, does that mean that it makes it very difficult to audit past ballot counts based on a different criteria? Because once those are cast, become very difficult at that point? Or how do we, are we just basing this purely based off of the voter rolls currently as they stand today, not necessarily the actual vote count cast? Do those match up equally in all cases? I guess I'm just trying to determine how all this is applies. If we're looking to update the standard by which we are determining eligibility and that determination has already passed once the vote is count.

Yeah, so I guess I don't really understand your question because our, our audit is really looking at voter registrations. This bill is addressing voter registrations. Now we will know if somebody voted. So if we do identify a non-citizen, we do have record of the elections that they cast ballots in. But we're not auditing how that ballot was cast or anything like that. We're purely looking at the registration and then going back from there.

Right. But I'm just saying the voter registration list doesn't necessarily match the votes counts list. Is that fair to say in any particular election period?

Like reconciliation, the number of ballots cast versus the number

Versus the voter registration for a time period,

There's a reconciliation that clerks do as part of the canvas that's addressed. And that's really way outside of anything that's being addressed in this bill or, or even the audit that we're doing. Um, but there is a reconciliation that's available on our website as well as any of the clerk's websites of each election that they, they oversee

A And Mr chair, just because I want to clarify this 'cause I'm making sure I understand the answer, is that okay? Um, I'm trying to be brief, but just because from what I understanding, you're, you're, you're looking at voter, the voter registration list for your audit, not the actual cast votes, the actual cast ballot list, because at that point there's no verification that could be done. Is that fair to say?

Yeah, I mean, once somebody's cast their vote, like it's one of however many hundreds of thousands, you know, in Weber, maybe 120 thou thousand ballots.

Sure. So it's fair to say though, that we don't necessarily know what you're looking at here is the voter registration list in determining who's eligible and who's not. And the concern when it comes to the votes cast list are two different entities, and the audit isn't covering the two because there's not really a method of auditing the cast ballot list as far as voter eligibility.

Well, we would know that those voters, so if we identified people who were non-citizens, we know that they have vote history. Does that make sense? We don't know how their ballot was cast, but we would know that they cast a ballot in that election.

So I, I guess maybe I'm not quite, Maybe we can take this offline, I guess, but, uh, I, I think that I'm, I'm trying to just determine that it seems like that the, the registration list and the cast ballot list are two different entities, are two different numbers. They're

Generated from the same thing. So when they do the vote history, it's based off of the registration.

So, but to answer the question you asked, I asked previously, then those counts should be identical in every election. The voter registration list and the cast vote list. If they're not, then we're saying that we're talking about two different lists.

Let, let's talk offline 'cause I'm not sure I'm quite tracking your Thank you. Her Question there?

Uh, my name is Helen Moser and I am representing the League of Women Voters today. And I'm here to oppose, uh, a 3, 2 0 9 for many reasons, but I'm gonna focus on four first. HB 2 0 9 is a solution in search of a problem. Claims of non-citizens voting represent an extremely small fraction of voters. As we heard from Ryan Cowley, even the largest claims never approach more than a few tenths of 1% of eligible voters. That tells us that our existing safeguards are largely working and allow election officials to focus on the rare cases that actually need investigation. Second, HB 2 0 9 would create basically two classes of voters in Utah. Those who can vote in all elections, and those who can only vote in federal races. That distinction is based on paperwork, really not citizenship. As a result, eligible Utah voters would be excluded from state and local elections at much higher rates, especially seniors, rural voters, tribal members, students, women who've changed their names upon marriage and naturalized citizens. These are people who are citizens but may not have easy access or be able to afford the costs associated with acquiring documents. Third, this bill would recreate serious problems we've already seen in Arizona, which has a nearly identical bifurcated system. The result, there has not been clarity or confidence, but confusion errors, litigation inconsistencies between counties. Arizona has struggled with database and system integration. Errors, errors, complex ballot, administration of multiple lawsuits, challenging the law. Voters are often confused about what, what races they can vote in or what documentation they need. Some have even believed that official notices requesting proof of citizenship are actually scams or political targeting. Finally, HB 2 0 9 would severely undermine community-based voter registration. The league and other civic organizations take great pride in registering eligible voters where they are under the spill. That effort would likely stop because people don't carry birth certificates or passports with them. For these reasons, I urge you to carefully analyze Arizona's real rural experience with

So, I'm Aaron Davidson, Utah County clerk, and I do speak favorably to this, uh, bill. Uh, but I wanna speak specifically to the SAVE program. As, uh, representative Malloy said, Utah County is the only, uh, county clerk that is registered with it to use a save agency. And as per the, uh, public facing document on, on the website, uh, the lieutenant Governor still has not, uh, completely received verification to use a save program. They may be registering, but they have not received verification as per the public facing document. Um, in using the database, I have found and doing an an audit on our own Utah County voter registration, we have over 6,000 voters who, uh, have shown that they have been born outside of the country, but we do not have naturalization data for them on record. Um, so I don't know if the, the driver license has given, they're giving us all the data that they have stored. We're not sure about that. So I did go through and, uh, found all of the voters that were born in Brazil, in Argentina, though we don't have naturalization data for them. And I submitted that to the SAVE program and there were 250 voters and I received back that 225 were verified citizens. Uh, but they could not verify for us that 25 of them were citizens. Since I received that, we didn't make, we found clarification on three of them. So we still have 22 voters that we don't have clarification. Uh, I haven't done anything with those because of the packet, the Proposition four packets we're processing right now. Um, but right now, even if I did find out that they weren't citizens or they couldn't provide data the way the code's written right now, I still couldn't do anything about it. The way this code is written in this bill is I would be able to identify them and to request a more backup documentation to find out that they're citizens. Uh, so I look forward to, uh, submitting the other 6,000 to save, to verify that they are citizens.

Unmute my audio. Uh, hello, Mr. Chairman. My name's Amy Johnson.

I'm looking for that. I wasn't expecting. Here we go. To be able to testify today. Thank you.

I live in Salt Lake City. I'm representing myself and just want to say that I believe anything that makes it more difficult to vote weakens our democracy. I believe we have a system that is working and has proven safe and efficient and I would hate to see, um, this bill interfere with that. Thank you.

Uh, I think I am incorrectly marked. I should be against the bill or opposed.

Great. Um, so I would just like to first acknowledge some of the comments that have been made, um, and say that I'm opposed this bill. I think that we should know the size very well before we're putting a bill forward.

Um, I am Lisa. So I represent in Saratoga Springs and I am opposed this bill, did I cover it all?

Um, anyways, uh, I think there are some great questions that were asked during the comments to show that this bill is not thoroughly thought through in time like now where discrimination and a threat to our, our democracies an all time high, the bill should not be passed. Um, we've already have measures in place to ensure elections are adequately moderate monitored, and we already have proper documentation to ensure there's no voter fraud. Um, I know that there was some rhetoric around reps giving examples about Costco, um, and I'm just thinking that we're not saying that there's no check for an id. Um, opposing this bill is to just keep what we have today. Um, as a woman here, I'm in Utah and a resident here, um, growing up here in Utah, my last name being. So it gets discriminated against. Um, I've grown up in Provo, Utah and have had issues with being discriminated against and, um, I get nervous about what that would look like. I think there was questions from a rep earlier that we didn't really touch on the topic about how that discrimination would be. Um, how we would make sure that that's not something that is occurring and with what we're seeing right now. That's a concern that I have. I also think the topics on the burden of proof is now out on citizens and immigrants alike. So saying that we have to give that proof and it's for the immigrants, we're not talking about how that would also affect, um, the citizens. I don't, I don't feel like we adequately covered that. So in general, there were some comments made on Kansas and how that was also enact enacted. I wanted to state that I also echo those, um, comments and yeah, ask that we don't support This bill. Hey, thank

Um, my name is Camia Cantrell and I'm here representing the Lieutenant Governor's office. Um, we first wanna thank Representative Malloy for his willingness to collaborate and work with us on this bill. Um, we share a common goal with the legislature of ensuring that only US citizens are able to vote in our elections. And in order to achieve that outcome, our goal is to establish best practices that allow for an effective way to verify citizenship without placing a significant burden on the voters or unintentionally removing those who are eligible. We believe the language in the substitute strikes a fair balance between these objectives. There's not one perfect way to verify citizenship for everyone that it is why it's important that this bill allows for a variety of methods for both the clerks and the voters to prove their citizenship, most of which will do it electronically through their driver's license. Um, some will use the same program, but that doesn't guarantee everyone either. Um, one example with someone being born outta the country, a few years ago the lieutenant governor while in office was removed from the voter rolls because someone looked at her registration, she didn't have naturalization information, but she was born in another country. She was born a citizen on a military base. Um, we absolutely do not want that to happen. That's why there's different safeguards in place and especially with the fact that 97.3% of our active registered voters have a current driver's license or state id, most people will verify through that method. So we look forward to continuing the dialogue with the legislature to improve this process. Thank you.

Thank you. I'd make the motion to adopt the first sub of HB 2 0 9 voting amendments.

Just that I think the sponsor's done a good job and know the committee's expressed, uh, gratitude for making some of the tweaks that he did.

Thank you. Amendment one, I'm assuming, right?

Excellent. So I'd like to make a motion, Mr. Chair, to adopt house amendment one in my name.

Yes, that is correct. Alright,

Could I speak to it briefly? You please Go ahead. Okay, Great. So I just want to commend the bill sponsor for the efforts that he's made to try to, uh, accommodate all the various interests. Um, I appreciate what you've done with sub one. Um, one of the concerns that I still had was, uh, when it comes to the private records, you did a good job of making sure that this stuff, uh, identified for proof of citizenship was classified as private, but there was, uh, additional information that we also wanted to be protected. So it's still limited to the purpose of verifying whether or not a person is, uh, uh, a US citizen for purposes of voting. And so I just wanted to make sure that these, uh, additional information was also protect, uh, private.

I I'm good with the, uh, amendment and I appreciate the thoughtful that's put into it. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I, I can't support that motion. I, I already feel like we have existing federal and state laws in place that, that protect our voting process. And I just wanna remind people, if somebody is aspiring to be a citizen, why would they vote in an election knowing if they, um, they vote and they're not allowed to, that that's probably gonna ruin any prosperous prospect of becoming a citizen. Another thing I wanna remind people of, it wasn't, no, it was in February. I mean, we're talking in November of 2002, 2024. We had to have the Justice Department come monitor a particular county. And this wasn't dealing with people who are aspiring to be citizens or newly citizens. This was dealing with our native populations and voter suppression there. So I just wanna be very thoughtful and mindful when we're passing legislation. I'm not saying the intent is meant to be malice, but I do have concerns that it will disenfranchise certain populations within our state.

speak in favor of, of, uh, her motion to pass this out favorably. I think the additions to the registration system are very good. I still have a little bit of concern about the, I I, I agree with the intent. Uh, I, I want to work with the sponsor and the clerks to make sure that we assume that people are citizens unless there is evidence that there is, that they're not, uh, or, or that we assume that the existing voter database people are eligible to vote unless there is a good reason and evidence that, that, that we don't have that documentation. And I, I, uh, I commend the sponsor for his efforts there. I, so I think we're on the right track to, to doing that.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, I, I wanna let the sponsor know that I appreciate him and I don't vote against all of his bills because of him. I know he puts a lot of work into these, um, and, and I admire what he's trying to do here in helping build trust in our voting systems, in our elections. Um, but there's a, a couple of hiccups that I have that I just can't go get there to, to vote. Yes. And I think we still have a lot of barriers and people obtaining the kind of verification, you know, I'm looking specifically at people with disabilities, our native populations, and I I look at how this might affect them. You know, we have, uh, issues going on across our country with federal law enforcement and harassment and I think that that would disproportionately affect some of our minority populations in showing up to provide these things because these, uh, you know, this law enforcement isn't just targeting non-citizens. It's targeting people of different colors and, and until we sort out some of these issues, I can't get behind a bill like this. But I do appreciate what you're trying to do. Thank you.

You need to do summation? I just wanna make sure.

Appreciate. Just briefly if I can on the motion, I just think I appreciate Representative Moy working on this. I think our committee has heard a variation of this for the past two, at least two sessions, possibly three. And I think that confidence in our election system is critical for people to have trust in the system. And to me it's a very common sense solution to require some identification that you are in fact a citizen voting in our election. So appreciate your work on this and would ask for the committee's support.

Yeah, I'd like to say a few words. Go ahead. Uh, first of all, I wanna thank you Mr. Chair and the committee, uh, members here. Um, this is a great committee and I, uh, really appreciate the discussion, the comments that have been made. There are some things I would like to just cover. I I, I believe there has been some hints that this is not a fair process in our election system. And I'm gonna disagree with that. I believe it makes it completely fair whether there's four people who voted that were non-citizens or if there was 6,000. Um, it doesn't matter. The, the constitution of the United States, the constitution of the state of Utah says you have to be a US citizen to vote in elections. And so all we're doing here is ensuring that everybody that wants to vote can vote. That's ultimately what we all want. And if you're a non-citizen and you wanna vote in our elections, you can, but you have to become a US citizen. You have to be able to show that. And so that's an important thing to remember. If we're gonna talk about fairness in elections, it's gotta be fair If we start making exceptions, because Kansas had this many, or Arizona had that many and they had these issues that Utah is not Kansas, Utah is not Arizona. There's similarities in this bill with what they did. But those problems are not necessarily gonna be our problems 'cause we, uh, continually are looking at how we can improve our elections, make it fair to everybody who wants to and can vote. And, uh, I'm just gonna share this. And, uh, I had, uh, some very, very close friends who had lived in Utah. They were from Brazil. They lived, they had lived in Utah for more than 20 years. And that whole 20 year pro year period, they were trying, they were doing everything they could to be good US citizens. They were working, they were paying taxes, their kids were going to school. And then the big day came where they had their naturalization ceremony. We Uintah that. It was a very sacred event, in my opinion. It was very sacred for me and my wife. And, uh, almost immediately after they received their naturalization documents at that very event, they went and registered to vote. And then for the next five years during election, they'd come over to me and ask me, well, how do we vote? How do we do this? And what do you think of this person? And, uh, or that person? And I said, I'll just give you my opinion and let you know what you need to do to, to vote appropriately. But they were loving the process. They felt like they were finally American citizens and they could participate. That's what we're striving for with this. And with all the other things that we're trying to do to continually improve our election process, bring faith and trust to our election process. Make sure we're, we are eliminating fraud. And I'll, you know, frankly, if a, if a non-US citizen who knows they're a non-US citizen registers to vote and they go cast a ballot that is not building trust, it doesn't matter if there was just a few or there was a whole bunch that still, uh, eliminates trust. And so what we're here doing today is trying to build trust and find a good and fair way to make sure that people who are US citizens can vote and those who are not can continue on their path to become US citizens and participate in that vote in that election. So again, I wanna thank the committee, I wanna thank everybody that's voiced their thoughts and opinions. Um, and I'm grateful for the opportunity to, to do this bill and hope you guys pass it through. Thank you.

Thank you Mr. Chair and members of the committee. It's good to be here before you. The, uh, HB 2 0 9 is a, a bill that protects the meaning, meaning of citizenship. It encourages responsibility, accuracy, and confidence. It protects the integrity of Utah elections by ensuring only US citizens vote and state and local races, while preserving every eligible voter's right to vote in federal elections. The bail creates a clear, transparent distinction between federal voting rights and state election requirements. So voters always know where they stand. Every eligible voter may continue to vote in federal elections, even while citizenship documentation is being resolved. Voters are notified, given time to respond and may cast a provisional ballot while any question is reviewed. HB 2 0 9 respects and honors legal immigrants who follow the law and work towards citizenship, ensuring that when they become naturalized their right to vote in Utah elections is fully recognized. Becoming a US citizen is a profound and meaningful milestone. And casting a ballot as a citizen is a sacred si civic moment. This bill helps protect, um, Mr. Chair. Uh, I'm speaking to the third substitute, which we'll need to move when you feel

Okay. The, uh, also I want to point out this, that there was a, uh, bipartisan, uh, work done on this bill. And the specifics of that is that there was a, there is a name change option for, uh, uh, people who, uh, may have a different name on their birth certificate versus where they're at today. So it provides a way for people to, uh, show that, uh, it also provides a way for the LGS office to see what ballot they are qualified for. So if you're wondering if you qualify for a state, full state ballot or just a federal ballot, you can check online and see what ballot you are currently, uh, qualified to get. It also includes a provision to protect privacy of those receiving a federal ballot. So that is, uh, the, uh, bill in a nutshell.

I move the third sub.

Hello. Thank you for letting me speak. I'm here to represent, um, Eagle Forum. I need your name. My name's Carolla Michelle. Thank you. Thank you Chair for letting me have the opportunity to speak to you today about this bill. Um, HB 2 0 9 and Representative Malloy. It seems very basic to me and makes good sense as a protection on our elections. That proof of citizenship must be required. I think, um, myself and other people of my, of the people I know in, in Eagle Forum want the guarantee that only citizens are voting proof of citizenship is paramount in this, this regard. And that's why I think that we need to support this bill and the substitute third substitute as well.

Ma'am. Alan Moser, and I'm representing the League of Women Voters and I'm here to, um, urge you to vote no. Um, I wanna add the concerns that you've already heard. Senator Weiler related to HB 2 0 9 by focusing on the facts and what this bill would mean in practice for eligible Utah voters. As we've heard, non-citizen voting is extraordinarily rare or U tenants Utah's. Lieutenant Governor recently audited approximately 2.1 million voter records and found one non-citizen registered and that individual did not vote. Even per an article written by the former Maricopa County Arizona elected recorder, Steven Richer the Heritage Foundation's own database of election crimes list only 24 instances of non-citizens voting in the US from 2003 to 2023. These numbers confirm what common sense tell us non-citizens are not willing to risk their immigration status and their future just to cast one vote among hundreds of thousands or millions. So the question is, given these results, are we willing to create two classes of voters and strip eligible utahans of their right to fully participate in our democracy? HB two? And I would do exactly that. Once a voter notify the record does not satisfy proof of citizenship. Sorry, That wasn't for you. Go ahead. Alright. Okay. The burden shifts entirely to them. For many Utahans, the youth seniors, people with disabilities, naturalized citizens, their children, tribal members, the unhoused, uh, securing documentary proof quickly is onerous. It may require appointments, transportation, contacting multiple agencies, paying fees for duplicate and translation of documents. Even obtaining a state ID can take four to six weeks. So if notifications comes close to an election, many voters simply will not be able to complete the process in time. Some will give up and be relegated to federal only voting or stop voting entirely. Their voice is silence in state and local elections. This is why the timeline matters. This bill would have allowed, or excuse me, SB 1 94 would've allowed more time for the Lieutenant Governor's office to complete its review and notify voters and would've delayed implementation till January 1st, 2008. This bill accelerates this change toward the 20 20 26 election cycle. That rushed approach smacks a voter suppression. So given the lack of evidence of a real problem, this feels less about secure elections and more about scoring political points. For these reasons, I urge you to oppose the bill. Alright,

My name is Marilyn Momani. I'm a citizen representing myself. The right to vote is among the most fundamental rights of American citizenship. Both state and federal law requires that voters be US citizens in Utah because of, uh, whistleblowers In other situations, loopholes have been identified that have allowed some non-citizens to, uh, to be on the, the Utah voter rolls in 2022 and 23. I worked part-time in the Utah County election office during the election. And in that process, I spent the majority of my time looking at or processing the feed that came from the Department of Motor Vehicles, or the department of, uh, I think it's the DLD now driver's license division. Um, within a day or two, I noticed that there were people who were born in a foreign country, but the fields for date and place of naturalization were blank. There's also a pop-up box that comes up on the system that you can look at their information that's at the DLD when there's a field that says citizenship. And on many of those people, that citizenship field was also blank. I don't know that in the history of our voter records, we have been as precise in maintaining who has citizenship and who doesn't. Um, over the past two years, I have filed some grammar requests. I worked with legislators, and I know that a legislative request was filed so that we could scope the size of the problem. One of my grammar requests was simply, just give me the number of people. Just a statistic. All of those requests have been unsuccessful in getting data. Though my, the previous speaker spoke of audit results, I'm not aware that any audit results have been published or any specifics that have come out of any audit, even though the Lieutenant Governor's office did say they were auditing the records. I haven't seen any results. Asking non-citizens to bring documents to prove US citizenship is a very simple task for any immigrant who's gone through naturalization. Sharing that document is not an inconvenience, it is a source of pride. HB 2 0 9 is a sensible procedure to ensure that Utah maintains clean, accurate voter roles. And I urge the committee members to favorably recommend this bill to the Senate floor.

Good afternoon. Thank you for the opportunity to comment. My name is Lori Cartwright and I am representing Mormon Women for Ethical Government or mwe, G for short. Mwe G is a nonpartisan, grassroots organization dedicated to creating more peaceful, just and ethical world. We believe electoral systems should promote citizen participation. We oppose HB 2 0 9 because it complicates voting and would disenfranchise eligible voters. Other states' experiences are instructive. Arizona and Kansas enacted similar laws, spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to implement and defend them. Arizona rejected 31,000 voter registration applications mostly from eligible citizens. And Kansas ultimately abandoned its law because it was too burdensome for voters and election administrators. Despite these lessons during house committee hearings, legislators defended this change both by asserting that other states require proof of citizenship and by asserting that Utah's circumstances are distinct. If Utah does approach elections differently, that distinction can be a strength by learning from other states' experiences, avoiding unnecessary costs, focusing on documented issues, and ensuring that eligible voters are not faced with additional barriers. A recent audit by the Lieutenant Governor's office reviewed 2.1 million Utah voter registrations and found no evidence of non-citizens casting ballots. And only one case of an ineligible person registering to vote. At most. A handful of registrations required follow up, representing a tiny fraction of the voter rolls. This confirms that non-citizen voting is not a widespread problem in Utah. We value election security, but restrictions on access must be proportional to the benefit. Non-citizen voting is extremely rare and Utah already has strong laws and penalties in place. HB 2 0 9 would create new barriers and costs without solving a real problem. We ask you to vote no on HB 2 0 9. Thank you.

Okay. You mentioned that in Arizona they rejected 31,000 ballots and you said mostly from citizens. Yes. How many were not

Citizens? I don't have that number for you because, but it was very minimal.

How many is enough? Like how, like at what point do you say, like, is there ever a number that you say this is too many? Like, is there a threshold for you?

For, for me personally? For or for my organization? For

You or for ameg? Either one.

Um, I, I can't speak to that for am e but for me personally, yeah, I I, it's kind of a hypothetical 'cause we don't really know the number on it for sure.

Yeah. 'cause 'cause that's my concern, right? I mean, if 31,000 of the, if all of them were non-citizens, What if it was like a thousand of them? A thousand? What's the percentage? I mean, I think 30 divided by 31. I don't know. Whatever that is. Okay. So say 3% For me per, for Non-citizens voting For me personally? Yeah, You, uh, would you be okay with 3% non-citizens voting?

Uh, you know, I, I don't really know. I, I, because that, that's, I don't think I can really answer that. How, how would you feel?

Well, and, and the point that I'm getting at is, you know, when Arizona did it, you know, number one, they had some problems 'cause they didn't have a federal carve out. This does have that, which was the primary problem in, in Arizona. But number two, you know, when you say 31,000, uh, ballots were held, you know, and had to go through this process, and most of them were citizens. I mean, that could be 16,000 and 15,000 were non-citizens trying to vote. Mm-hmm. I think that's a big problem. If, if that's the case, even if there's, but there's a, there's a point where even like mwe would say this is a problem, right? Like, if there's enough or is there no point?

I I, I'm not gonna speak for mwe on that again.

I mean, you're here speaking for mwe and, and I guess that that's the concern that I have is it's not as if there wasn't some problem. 'cause otherwise it would be all 31,000 were, you know, citizens. So like the scale does matter. And so I'm trying to see, you know, 'cause a lot of times on this stuff, it isn't measured very well or it's not captured very well. It sounds like they captured a lot. And I'd be interested to know those results. Could you come back with those?

I, I sure could. And, and I'd be happy to send that information. I can go back and send that to you right now. I have the report that cites all that information and it, and it was, it wasn't a, a poorly done report. Okay. Okay. Thanks. Okay. You're welcome. Thank

Oh, yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair. And I, I would just listening to you, your statement, um, if we go back and focus to Utah, where more than 99.9% of voters that were verified were US citizens. Just to make sure we're clear, because this just came out January 23rd of this year by our own Lieutenant Governor's office stating a review of 2 million people. I mean, our population is 3.5 million, 2 million, and 99.9% of those voters are verifiable US citizens. And I, I'm, you know, I think that's the point, right? You were making, like in Utah, we don't have a problem. And that, that, you know, that's according to our Lieutenant Governor's office. So is there anything else that you wanna add regarding to that?

Um, Lieutenant Governors, you know, um, reviewed or whatever Yeah. Is reviewed. I guess Just, just what you said, 99.9%. There was one person who tried to register to vote and I suspect there's a reason for that. Possibly even a good reason. Sometimes that's tied into different things that they might, um, have needed access to. And there might have been a misunderstanding, but, but that's the only person. And that was just registering. Thank you. Yes. We have a very accurate voting Thanks system here.

Maryanne Christensen, executive Director of Utah Legislative Watch. And I'm here in support of this bill. It's kind of fun that the bill has 34 co-sponsors a bipartisan group if you look at the list. And, um, I think that's because this is a good way to restore some confidence in our elections. We appreciate all organizations that want to help our citizens participate in elections. Helping citizens participate in elections requires proof of citizenship. It's also important that the legislature bring back some integrity to our elections. There may be no non-citizens voting. There may be thousands and thousands of non-citizens voting. I think that, um, Marilyn Malini did a good job of saying how even trying to figure that out as a citizen has been difficult, if not impossible. And I'm hearing from more and more and more voters who are so discouraged about even going out to vote because they feel like their vote is watered down by people who are not eligible to vote. So even if there's not a problem, I think that it's a good strategy for us to say, we're going to show our, the voters of the state of Utah that the, the legislature will protect their vote from being canceled out by, by voters who are in ineligible to even cast a vote. And this is the first step in doing that. So I appreciate your affirmative vote on the legislation. Thank you.

Aaron. David, Aaron Davidson, Utah County Clerk. So when a person goes to get citizenship, they have to, uh, their lawyer has to send me or the county clerk a request for a certificate of, uh, voter certificate. Since I've taken office, I've had three that I've had to give them a certificate saying that they are registered. So I have had three people registered, uh, that were trying to apply for CI citizenship. One of those had voted previously. One of them had voted three times previously to requesting citizenship, and the other one has not voted, uh, since, uh, Utah County was the first, uh, forward facing entity in Utah that was registered with the save organization, which is the, uh, It's doesn't matter. Go on. So Utah County was the first one, and I submitted 250 names to save organization to try and test it out. One came back, is being not registered, uh, and another one came back as being a citizen. But they gave me a date when they became a citizen. And that person had voted three times prior to becoming a citizen. His status was a citizenship. Um, well, he wasn't a citizen. Uh, so he had voted three times. So saying that no one has voted as a non-citizen is not true. Uh, I believe that the LGS preliminary audit returned for people that weren't citizens and one of them was in Utah County. And that person had been found previously and was, uh, set to be as a non-voter. So Utah County still has over 6,000 citizens that we know were born out of the country, and that we do not have citizenships or naturalization data for. Uh, and so I'm still trying to gather the data to submit those to the safe organization. Um, so I, I am talking in support of this bill, uh, because with that, with this bill, um, we will be able to take action to make sure that those that are not citizens are found and that we can take action against them. Whereas currently, if they marked that they're a citizen, we can't do anything about 'em right now. So I am speaking for this bill.

Thank you. Um, my name is Amy Kishke. I apolo I understand not being able to pronou pronounce that. Sorry about that. Uh, no problem. I am a, a constituent in South Salt Lake, and I want to, uh, encourage you to vote against HB 2 0 9. Um, it is, it's chasing down a problem. We don't have. The audit that was done showed one person who was not a citizen, who hadn't even tried to vote. And, and it's kind of funny to me that we didn't even have any concerns about the security of our elections until Donald Trump was in office. And one of the speakers talked about how easy it is for the naturalized citizens to have their paperwork ready. But what about citizens? I mean, many women change their names when they get married. So their birth certificate isn't useful for proving citizenship if they don't travel outta the country, they don't have a passport, and passports are expensive and take a lot of work to get, if they work a full-time job, it's hard to get to the courthouse to get a marriage license. And it just makes it harder for younger voters. And what about the elderly? Like I remember when my mom lived in a, a senior care home and it, she didn't just have access to go drive around and pick up documents. I mean, they did do like a bus to take them to a polling place, but all of these things just make it harder for citizens. And I was looking at the, the case in Kansas and the, the federal court decla declared that law unconstitutional because it disenfranchised over 31,000 citizens representing 12% of first time registrants. Um, I I see this as, you know, us putting a lot of legislation and money, uh, against a problem that isn't a problem. Um, so I just encourage you to vote against HB 2 0 9. Thank

Sure thing. Uh, thank you very much. Uh, yeah. My name is Seth Stewart. I'm representing

Yeah. I live in American Fork. Um, this, this bill overlaps with it conceptually with the previous one, uh, which deals with VA dere and the original rule of VA Dere consisted of the jury vetting itself. There's a comparable phenomenon going on here that when voters gathered to vet and credential under the original American Republic, they gathered in a local manner. Uh, we still do this somewhat today in the Republican caucus, if you've ever been to it. Uh, we, we actually have neighbors vetting neighbors, and it's the most efficient and most effective, most accurate way of vetting who's who. Uh, I, I don't know if the, the federal government was there or was the state government there when you were born? Uh, but your neighbors know you. And this is the pattern that's set forth for our, our Elections administration as well, is you have neighbors who vouch for you. And if you don't know your neighbors, then you're inviting the government to outsource identity to a centralized, uh, executive framework without a check. So I would urge reconsideration, I would urge pause here to say, where's the harm in that, where's the harm in allowing our, uh, the, the, the right to vote to be gate kept by an executive, uh, without actual vetting from the people themselves? The National Voter Registration Act in 1993 laid the groundwork for this, for the state voter registration databases. And it's, uh, it's, it's not an authority that the government has had. It's not enumerated power. And, uh, this is, if, if we think that there's no other way to do it, I would urge, uh, consideration of the uniform rule of naturalization. The federal government has authority to set that rule, but the government doesn't actually have authority to say who is or is not eligible to vote. So I urge you to oppose this because it centralizes that power.

Representative Maloy the thing I don't like about your bill is if I vote against it, it seems like I want illegal aliens voting. It looks like I want illegal aliens voting in our elections, which I don't, if I vote for the bill, it looks like, I think we have a huge problem with illegal aliens voting, which I don't believe we do. I do believe, um, Mr. Davidson, I, I I I, I would be shocked if we haven't had, um, a, you know, a handful. Um, but so, so there's a, either way, there's a message that I don't wanna send to the public, but can you address that, that concern that I have?

Yes, I can, I think, uh, representative, or sorry, representative b Brammer, Senator Bremmer, uh, ask the right question. How many is too many? Yeah. And I think more than zero is too many. So if it's one, if it's four, if it's 6,000, that's too many. It makes a mockery of those immigrants that are working towards becoming permanent citizens of the United States who want to go vote. The responsibility is on the individual. If there are people in Utah who want to vote in our elections, they need to be US citizens. And the Constitution of the United States, the Constitution of Utah, makes that very, very clear that the elections are for US citizens. So what this bill does is just make, ensures that we have US citizens voting. So what happened in Kansas, what happened in Arizona? Those are not Utah. And so the data that we have here, we're still gathering data. It's not concluded. It's not comprehensive. There's doubt. I've heard everything from one two, 6,000. So is there a problem? I hope there isn't a problem because we only want US citizens voting in, in our elections. And so that, there you go.

One other question I have, and this was brought up in public testimony, and it's been brought up a lot more in my email inbox, but what about this argument that if a woman, um, gets remarried and takes her husband's name, now you have a birth certificate that doesn't match maybe her driver's license. So what is your response to that? The

Bill, this, the second substitute built that in. And that was where the bipartisan participation, we worked together to solve that problem. And that's what I mentioned earlier, which is all they have to do really is just show their, their birth certificate, their marriage certificate, or what other documentation they have that shows that their name was changed legally. And then that should be able to show that they're, they, they have their US citizenship. So that is one concern that was there from the very beginning. We also built in time to cure. So people who may, uh, have a simple problem with showing that they're a US citizen or not, there's, uh, a there's time and they can, they can still vote. Uh, they just have to show that US citizenship to get the, the full, uh, Utah ballot election.

So, so when you say time to cure, are you talking about they would cast a provisional ballot or something else?

They, they can cast a provisional ballot, and then they have to just show that they're a US citizen before noon on the, the last business day before canvassing begins. Okay.

Okay. Last question I have, and then I'll, I stop, I'll stop talking, I promise. Um, it's my understanding that, um, Utah in last session or two sessions ago, I don't recall every Utah, um, citizen is going to have to have a real ID driver's license by like 20, 28 or 2029. Anyway, therefore, um, that is going to resolve a lot of these issues. What can you tell us about that?

The, uh, the real ID is, uh, the, the, it's good and it's bad. It, and it's not really bad, but, uh, uh, people who are legally in the United States as permanent residents or legal immigrants can get the real id. That's my understanding. But to get a driver's license or a Utah id, you have to show a citizenship that doesn't preclude you from getting those if you're not, if you're here legally. But you have to have that, and that data is kept. So, uh, Mr. Davidson, uh, or the LGS office or any of the county clerks can look that information up to verify that they've, uh, are a US citizens. So the driver's, the card on the driver's license is not a good source of showing your citizenship, even though there's data behind that card when you, when you Uintah get it, that it, uh, that will show their US citizenship.

Sure. I would move that we recommend favorably third substitute HB 2 0 9.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, I'll, I'll be opposing the motion in, in part because of the good data that we have that that shows that this is not really an issue. Um, the other thing I'm concerned about is that the bill appears to have, and correct me if this has been fixed, but the bill appears to have an, an implementation date of November, uh, 2026 for the general election. And I'm concerned that making these disruptive changes between, uh, the primary and the general election could cause more problems.

Yeah. I think that the third sub creates a ballot system for an election held after November 1st, 2026. So I, I that's the point stop. Okay. Okay.

Yeah, I, I, I hope that's the case. I do think that that addresses some issues. Um, but ultimately I will be voting. No, thank you.

Yeah, the, uh, when we were working with the LGS office in the, uh, county clerks, they certainly wanted time to be able to implement this. And so our discussions were, do we need this for the primary, well, the primaries for finding a party nominee. The, uh, the election that occurs where we're actually elect uh, electing an elected official is in November. And so we wanted to try and get this in place for the November election. And so, uh, everybody felt like that would give them the time that they needed. So that, so the effective date of the bill will be when the governor signs it, of course, but the, uh, the implementation of it would give them time to do that. That's where the November 1st date comes in.

Yeah, I, there's a lot of, uh, uh, I appreciate all this, this discussion. There's a lot of people that oppose this, and I, for reasons that I don't understand, uh, I keep hearing the words, there isn't a problem, but yet nobody has shown me the zero zero is not a problem. And, uh, uh, and like I was saying before, what I think this bill does is it makes it, it clears a path for those who have, uh, issues with showing their US citizenship or who are working towards US citizenship in a legal way. Uh, it clears a pathway for them to get to that point. And there is nothing more exciting than watching a newly naturalized citizen of the United States go register to vote and then participate in a vote. I've experienced that. I'll bet you a lot of people in this room have experienced that same thing. So this is a good bill. It, it clears the path for people to be become, or show that they're US citizens and participate in our elections. And it also, it better ensures that only US citizens are participating in our elections. So, thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

So one of the things that, um, you know, I, I'm kind of in Todd's camp. I'm not always certain that there's a, a huge swath of illegal immigrants voting in our elections as far as just like a high number. Um, one of the things I would point out is the data that came back from the Lieutenant Governor's office and what hasn't been talked about in that. So, in that, they said, we only found one confirmed non-citizen, uh, who didn't vote and has since been removed. However, what nobody's talking about is they found 486 that did not list, you know, that were, you know, foreign born and did not list their citizenship status. And so we have a problem with four hundred and eighty six, four hundred eighty six, I apologize, this is 96 before 486 people who were on our voter rolls that we didn't know. And only, and two thirds of those were from out of the country, and we're missing information. And so, if nothing else, what this will do is it will clean up the voter rolls. And if you're going to have a mail-in voting system, you know, every voter system can be hacked one way or another. I mean, I was talking with my Democrat colleagues, Lyndon b Johnson flat out stole a Senate seat out of Texas. I mean, it's like, there are different ways to hack different elections, but the weak point in a mail, mail, mail-in voting system is your voter roll. And if you've got 486 that aren't listing their information correctly, that, and two thirds of those are from outta the country and won't list their citizenship status, and haven't provided backup documentation for that. Like, there's a really good reason to get that cleaned up. And I hope every single one of them is a US citizen, and I hope that they can simply update their voter rolls so that it's clear. But we shouldn't have people wondering or, you know, and I, and I, you know, I'm not as much of the, I don't get as worked up about a lot of the election stuff as, as a lot of people, but I will say that I want it to work. I want the voter roll to be clean. I want citizens voting. And I think the citizens of Utah want the same. And we do have a problem with 486 pursuant to this audit that we don't know where they're from. And it's the only reason they're not listed on the other side is that they were not confirmed. You know, but you have like, it, it is their, like, there is a burden to show that you are a US citizen in order to vote. And that is the smallest of burdens. And, and so it's just listing, you know, the information that you need. And so I think this is a worthwhile bill, and, and for that reason, I support it.

Uh, thank you, Mr. Chair. I just

You can explain votes, right?

Yeah. Okay. Sorry. I'm ready to explain my vote. Okay. Am I ready? Okay, thanks. Um, just I think I'm not as concerned of naturalized citizens being able to prove, 'cause you have to go through so many, such a long process. Everyone has their naturalized, um, certificate. I mean, I, I'm not that concerned about that group. I'm actually concerned about US citizen born in the United States that have changed their last names sometimes through adoption, sometimes through marriage. And now they're gonna get stuck in a situation where they're gonna be delayed for their, their right to vote, to be their vote to be counted. So that's my biggest concern, is how many then US citizens should be denied their access to vote. And how many are too many? So for that, I'll be voting now.

I think, I think I addressed that very clearly and that I don't think that's correct.

I'm explaining why I think she's not right, but, okay.

Uh, like to make a motion to circle please.

Uh, we're just ma we're just waiting to wrap up a substitute that will come out. It's not out

I'd like to make a motion to adopt, uh, the second substitute in my name, That motions in order I speak to it. Um, I'm gonna be speaking to the, to that bill when I present it. Is that okay? I Think it's good to just maybe make the, uh, uh, tell us what the differences is between the first substitute and the second substitute. Okay. So the, uh, first substitute is the main bill, the second substitute. Just add adds a few clarifying, uh, areas that will make it easier for the bill to be implemented.

I'm sorry, Mr. Speaker. I was, um, uh, seeking a personal privilege, so sorry I had my light on the wrong time.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wanna speak in favor of the substitute. Uh, the good sponsor worked with, um, some of us who were concerned that there was not a timeline when, uh, to, to ensure that folks are notified if they are not, if, if notified if they are a non-citizen. And I believe the substitute, my understanding is the substitute was solves that problem that people will be notified when plenty of time that they can cure or fix their, uh, provide documentation if they're notified that they're a non-citizen. Thank you.

Give Mr. Speaker, uh, a follow up question. May I ask Mr. Speaker, Uh, Representative Moss, will you yield to a question?

Sure. Yes. Representative Romero,

Besides what the good representative mentioned prior to me, what are the other substances? What are the other changes in the substitute?

The, uh, it, it might be difficult to understand because I haven't presented the bill, but here's what, here's what the second substitute does. It provides a name change option. If someone is, uh, flagged for citizenship because of a name change, if they have their birth, for example, if they have their birth certificate, like with a marriage certificate that shows that their name change in their citizens of the U of the us, that that would qualify. It also provides a way for the LGS office to see what ballot they're qualified for. So if you are qualified for the federal ballot or the state standard ballot, you can, uh, inquire online to see which ballot you're currently qualified for. And it also includes a provision to protect privacy for those who are, are receiving the federal ballot. And there's reasons for that, good reasons for that. And those are the key key items.

Thank you. Thank you

Thank you Mr. Speaker. Appreciate the opportunity to present this bill. It's a great bill. This bill is designed to protect the meaning of CI citizenship. It encourages responsibility, accuracy, and confidence. HB 2 0 9 protects the integrity of Utah elections by ensuring only US citizens vote and state and local races, while preserving every eligible voter's right to vote in federal elections. The bill creates a clear, transparent distinction between federal voting rights and state election requirements. So voters always know where they stand. Every eligible voter may continue to vote in federal elections, even while citizenship documentation is being resolved. Voters are notified, given time to respond and may cast a provisional ballot. While any question regarding citizenship is reviewed, HB 2 0 9 respects and honors legal immigrants who follow the law and work toward and who may be working towards citizenship, ensuring that when they become naturalized their right to vote in Utah elections is fully recognized. Becoming a US citizen is a profound and meaningful milestone. In casting a ballot as a citizen is a sacred civic moment that this bill helps protect. I'd like to reiterate the fact that this bill protects the meaning of citizenship. Mr. Speaker, that can concludes my presentation.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Uh, I just want to thank the sponsor of this bill. Um, aside from being the second best dresser in this body, uh, he was very gracious to work with me on some of the issues I had with this bill. Um, the, the substitute that we just adopted is great in terms of the notice requirements and also the ease it places on allowing people to prove their citizenship. And so because of those changes made, I will be supporting this bill. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Um, I wanna say I'm not opposed to the concept of this bill. I think it's important that we only have people who, who should be voting in elections, voting in elections. But as the recent audit pointed out, this isn't really an issue that needs solving here in Utah. We only had one non-citizen on our voter rolls and they did not vote. So with that in mind, and I don't know if the fiscal note has changed with the substitute, we're looking at a hundred thousand dollars from the state, $32,000 ongoing to local governments. And in a session where we're debating putting limitations on how local governments can tax themselves, I'm uncomfortable putting extra funding requirements on them for something that's not necessarily necessary. So again, I appreciate the concept of this, but I'll be opposing the bill today. Thank you.

Thank you Mr. Speaker question for the sponsor. Representative Maloy, will you yield to a question? Yes, yes. Representative. So I, a question I have is why did we change it to elected official versus county clerk? And, um, what is the scope when we say elected official may determine, um, whether a registered voter is a citizen of the United States?

Uh, the elected official reference is referring MO mostly to the, uh, county clerks and the LGS office. So election officials.

I, I guess my question, a follow up question, Mr. Speaker, if that's okay. Representative Moss, will you continue to yield to a follow up question?

Sure. Yes, representative.

So when you define elected official, are you, would that mean someone like myself or yourself, or is this specifically county clerks and members of the Lieutenant Governor's office that are elected?

So my, my question was, when we say elected official, that's very broad. And so my concern is that an elected official may determine who is eligible to vote or not to vote if they're not a member of, they're not a county clerk or they're not an elected official in the, um, Lieutenant Governor's office. So my concern is about the broad nature of the term elected official.

It's referring to an election officer, someone who's in, in charge of running the election.

Thank you. I I still do have concerns because as I, um, in regards to who can question who is a citizen or not, I feel like we already have processes in place. And I, as my colleague before me said, I, I don't think this is needed legislation. So thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise in support of this very important legislation regardless of the news out there on preliminary findings from the audit by the lieutenant governor. I have personal firsthand knowledge that there over the past year have been more than one, uh, non-citizen who is registered to vote and who has voted. And those individuals did not register to vote in 2018 or 2019 as was referenced in the news articles. And so I just want to ensure that, um, as we're talking about this, we wanna make sure that we are being factual. The article that the lieutenant governor, um, spoke to also said that there were over 400 individuals whose addresses hadn't been verified. I'm not sure what that means. I haven't looked at the methodology. Um, there are a lot of individuals on the voter roll that are problematic and we need to maintain our voter rolls and we need to ensure that in the future non-citizens cannot register to vote and vote in Utah. And so for that reason, this is the right policy. It is a policy that has been adopted by multiple other states and it is working in those states. So thank you. I urge my colleague support.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I just wanna raise the support of the bill. It's well thought out, it's respectful, and I just believe that that elemental to representative government is the belief and understanding our citizens have that elections are safe and secure. This bill helps to do that. And so I urge, uh, your support of this bill. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. And, uh, I just wanted to, um, maybe mention briefly to my colleagues and I spoke to the election office about their audit briefly. And in Utah, our voter registrations are constantly purged. When people, uh, die, when they move, those voter registrations are removed from the database. So when we do an audit, we're looking at current registrations and we're determining based on current Regi registrations, how they voted in the past. But if somebody registered to vote in any prior year, voted and then left the state or died, then that registration record would not be available to audit. And there's no way to look at that. So I would say that it is beyond the scope of the audit to determine whether or not there have been any prior ballots cast. Um, we're just currently looking at the current registration list, but I'd also say that I do support this bill. I appreciate the work that would representative, uh, the good representative put into it. And, uh, we went through a lot of discussion and committee about it and it's, uh, an important step. Thanks.

Thank you Mr. Speaker. Appreciate, uh, the discussion and all the comments. This bill is about fairness due. It's about due process and it's about respect for our laws, for our elections, our US and Utah constitutions. And for those who work hard to earn the privilege of citizenship. It's been discussed that there's only been a few non-citizens that have registered to vote and voted in our elections. That's a few too many. When you look at people who are working diligently to become naturalized citizens in this country and they can't vote, but they're working towards that opportunity to vote. Any election, any vote that's cast by a non-citizen is, uh, pretty much a mockery to those people that are working in this country and who are working towards their naturalization as citizens of this country. So, uh, I'll leave that with you. This is a, a great bill. It does all the right things. It respects those who, uh, want to, uh, vote on a, a federal ballot and in our standard state ballot. And I'm grateful for the opportunity to make sure that we are setting up our elections where only US citizens vote. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

And in a session where we're debating putting limitations on how local governments can tax themselves, I'm uncomfortable putting extra funding requirements on them for something that's not necessarily necessary. So again, I appreciate the concept of this, but I'll be opposing the bill today. Thank you.

Thank you Mr. Speaker question for the sponsor. Representative Maloy, will you yield to a question?

Yes, yes. Representative.

So I, a question I have is why did we change it to elected official versus county clerk? And, um, what is the scope when we say elected official may determine, um, whether a registered voter is a citizen of the United States?

Uh, the elected official reference is referring MO mostly to the, uh, county clerks and the LGS office. So election officials.

I, I guess my question, a follow up question, Mr. Speaker, if that's okay.

Sure. Yes, representative.

So when you define elected official, are you, would that mean someone like myself or yourself, or is this specifically county clerks and members of the Lieutenant Governor's office that are elected?

Mr. Speaker, my clarifying question to I think respond properly is, is does the good representative referring to people who are running our elections or elected officials, like people getting elected?

So my, my question was, when we say elected official, that's very broad. And so my concern is that an elected official may determine who is eligible to vote or not to vote if they're not a member of, they're not a county clerk or they're not an elected official in the, um, Lieutenant Governor's office. So my concern is about the broad nature of the term elected official.

It's referring to an election officer, someone who's in, in charge of running the election.

Thank you. I I still do have concerns because as I, um, in regards to who can question who is a citizen or not, I feel like we already have processes in place. And I, as my colleague before me said, I, I don't think this is needed legislation. So thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise in support of this very important legislation regardless of the news out there on preliminary findings from the audit by the lieutenant governor. I have personal firsthand knowledge that there over the past year have been more than one, uh, non-citizen who is registered to vote and who has voted. And those individuals did not register to vote in 2018 or 2019 as was referenced in the news articles. And so I just want to ensure that, um, as we're talking about this, we wanna make sure that we are being factual. The article that the lieutenant governor, um, spoke to also said that there were over 400 individuals whose addresses hadn't been verified. I'm not sure what that means. I haven't looked at the methodology. Um, there are a lot of individuals on the voter roll that are problematic and we need to maintain our voter rolls and we need to ensure that in the future non-citizens cannot register to vote and vote in Utah. And so for that reason, this is the right policy. It is a policy that has been adopted by multiple other states and it is working in those states. So thank you. I urge my colleague support.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. And, uh, I just wanted to, um, maybe mention briefly to my colleagues and I spoke to the election office about their audit briefly. And in Utah, our voter registrations are constantly purged. When people, uh, die, when they move, those voter registrations are removed from the database. So when we do an audit, we're looking at current registrations and we're determining based on current Regi registrations, how they voted in the past. But if somebody registered to vote in any prior year, voted and then left the state or died, then that registration record would not be available to audit. And there's no way to look at that. So I would say that it is beyond the scope of the audit to determine whether or not there have been any prior ballots cast. Um, we're just currently looking at the current registration list, but I'd also say that I do support this bill. I appreciate the work that would representative, uh, the good representative put into it. And, uh, we went through a lot of discussion and committee about it and it's, uh, an important step. Thanks.

Thank you Mr. Speaker. Appreciate, uh, the discussion and all the comments. This bill is about fairness due. It's about due process and it's about respect for our laws, for our elections, our US and Utah constitutions. And for those who work hard to earn the privilege of citizenship. It's been discussed that there's only been a few non-citizens that have registered to vote and voted in our elections. That's a few too many. When you look at people who are working diligently to become naturalized citizens in this country and they can't vote, but they're working towards that opportunity to vote. Any election, any vote that's cast by a non-citizen is, uh, pretty much a mockery to those people that are working in this country and who are working towards their naturalization as citizens of this country. So, uh, I'll leave that with you. This is a, a great bill. It does all the right things. It respects those who, uh, want to, uh, vote on a, a federal ballot and in our standard state ballot. And I'm grateful for the opportunity to make sure that we are setting up our elections where only US citizens vote. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you Mr. President Pro Tem. This is one of our election bills finishing up our work from last year. Uh, this bill is based upon providing a mechanism in which we can decide, uh, citizenship and, and also determining our county clerk determining residency. And that's the bulk of this bill. Uh, it provides clearness and, and fairness. Uh, it gives, spells out the, um, orders in which the Lieutenant Governor's office and the county clerks can go through the procedure of identifying a residency if it's very clear in here. And, uh, the sponsor did a really good job in trying to address all of the, uh, issues that came at him. I am reminded that there is an amendment online. I'd like to move the amendment and the amendment basically address the drafting attorney left out. Uh, some clarification, uh, at the end. Do you see that amendment there? Senate Amendment one? Yes. We have that. Mm-hmm. I'd like to move that amendment. That Senate Amendment one, correct? Correct. Okay. Discussion to the motion to amend. Seeing none. All in favor of adopting Senate amendment one, say aye. Aye. Any opposed? I'll rule that passes.

Okay. Well, uh, it's received a lot of, uh, eyes on this. A lot of feedback and again, I mean, the sponsor has been really, uh, good at, at trying to clarify what's going on in the bill. Our clerks are, are neutral on this because it, it does, uh, make them, if they follow the rules in this bill here, it'll make their job easier as far as the determination on citizenship. Okay. Thank you. Now, discussion to the bill.

Thank you, Mr. Pro to Sponsor you.

Um, whenever I see, you know, we've had a lot of election bills in the last few years. There's been a lot of heightened, uh, notoriety and heightened interest and engagement in these. So I, I always kinda have to ask myself this question, what's the problem we're fixing and what's, what's, what's really the problem that we're trying to fix?

Well, mainly this is, uh, we had a, a debate whether or not we had some illegal aliens voting in our elections. Is that throwing off, uh, the accuracy of who is voting? And so this bill addresses and tackles that it sets up identification clauses, uh, spells out many different ways that, that a county clerk or the Lieutenant Governor's office can, uh, come to a conclusion. What is the identifications that we're doing? So it clears that up. I mean, most people misread this, and, and it's as simple, if you're registered to vote right now, you've had that ID your driver's license, if it's issued by the state, already fulfills that. But you're gonna have to show that to, to get a ballot. Uh, the other way is, uh, say somebody's, uh, gained citizenship coming through, uh, the state. It'll also verify that they're legal. It also states in here that, um, people say, well, I want to vote. Well, all the years past, we've always had provisional ballots in which there's a question on whether or not the the residency is accurate or not. So this spells out that, uh, you can vote if it's going, if you can't prove citizenship, there's a provisional ballot, you will be able to vote on, uh, federal elections, but not state elections. And then they have a time period, it's spelled out as to what, how they can work through that to make sure that we, we are verifying that they are citizens and, and legal to vote.

Thank you, Mr. President. ProAm, a follow up question. I know that there's been some audits done on recent elections looking at this specific thing and also some other aspects, you know, uh, persons that votes counted that shouldn't have been, and those types of things. To your knowledge, how many, uh, cases have been found where someone who was an i, an alien, illegal alien, was able to vote in our state election?

Okay. Uh, more than zero is too many in my opinion, but, uh, you know, they, they did an audit and, uh, I think they came up with one. There's a, a county clerk that's claiming more than that and, and they're doing a really deep dive in as to this issue itself. And so I think the need is there. But in Utah, I think we've had a very good system. But tightening, tightening down the controls will, will make everybody feel safer about our elections. And, and who is actually, uh, voting.

Thank you, Mr. President. Um, ironically, today I'm wearing a white suit to discuss women's suffr for, uh, voting. And the letters that I've received most about this, the emails, um, letters would've been when we suffered more. Um, but the emails I'm receiving are that this would be more of a burden for women and they, uh, change their names, which makes some of the documentation that you are mentioning on your bill more, uh, difficult to obtain. So if you didn't have a license, you'd have to go back and get a birth certificate, which doesn't have the same name as maybe your license, or you might have to get a passport, which is expensive. So these are the emails that I've received the most from, uh, women who have their changed their names. How, go ahead. Is this creating an unnecessary burden for those women?

No. No, it's not, it's unfortunate That is misinformation because if you have, uh, a birth certificate, a driver's license, a marriage certificate, there's no problem whatsoever on this. We're not causing undue burden on anyone.

Senator Rebe. Thank you, Mr. President. So if you're a male and you have a birth certificate, that's the same name that you have on your license, would you need to have two forms of identification if you were a female because you changed your name?

No. Um, if you have a driver's license, again, that's your identification. If it is the new identification that the state issues, you'll see on there that, that all of that has been verified, that's all you need. If you do have your marriage certificate, I, uh, a male does not need to have all of that because their name doesn't change. But even at that, your identity follows you however you have it, whether it's on your maiden name or your married name, the state will recognize that.

Thank you. Um, so if you don't have a license, because many people don't have a driver's license and you are married, you have to bring your marriage certificate, but if you got married and you don't have a license, would you bring your birth certificate, which doesn't have the same name as your voter registration? Would you have to bring two forms of identification for that

Well, if that person is in the United States legally, they will have documentation as to who they are. I don't know that we're causing any conflict with that. And, uh, again, it's spelled out, there's several ways a documentation, if you want to go and look from, uh, line 1 0 9 down, it talks about here's what we'll recognize as proof. And, uh, we've taken in control or in consideration, um, a Native American, if they have a tribal card, their government, their nation has identified who they are, and that's their id. So it is a very simple process people are making and reading more into this than, than what it is. We've tried to streamline this and to, and verify the process.

Yes. Thank you. I'm gonna close with this statement. Um, I, I disagree that this is making it streamlined. I think it's making it more cumbersome for older people who might not have current UpToDate information. I think it's making it more difficult for a person who gets married and changes their name. I think the list of documentation is extensive, but many of those documentation pieces cost money and are, um, sometimes a burden to get, if you're an older person who doesn't drive anymore, your license is going to be expired, and that's no longer a legal form of identification. If you are an older person and you're a little longer traveling, you won't have a passport. And then that would be more expensive to get. So I think in the, the amount of small subset of people that have been illegal, that have voted such a small subset that we can't even agree upon a number that's so small. This is disenfranchising voters. This is dis decreasing turnout. And a time that we are really relying on civic engagement to be at a peak because we believe in civic engagement here in the state. We talk about civic engagement all the time. We are trying to increase our curriculum for civil engagement. We have civic engagement, um, institutes being sprouting up in all of our higher ed institutions. I think this is unnecessary. So, uh, I don't believe that this is making it easier. I believe it's making it harder. Thank you.

Just a, a clarifying question. Is this sponsored degree? DDL?

Uh, so this only happens once, right? When you register, when you first register to vote, then you prove your citizenship, uh, and then as long as you continue to vote in elections, you don't have to go back and redo this. Is that correct?

Yes, you are correct. If you are a registered voter one time and you're an active voter, you stay on the rolls. It's not every time that you have to, to go to ask for a ballot, you are on the rolls. So it's a one time thing. It's not difficult.

And this one does not impede, um, our vote by mail system.

Senator Winterton? No, it does not. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. President. I, I wanted to convey some of the feedback that has come to me from emails and from constituents. And that is that this body sometimes works on bills that don't help them feel heard or don't feel like they resonate with them. And I think that when we imply that there's something wrong with our election system, while I say that, I think we should continue to work towards excellence and towards improvements. I I am actually proud of our voting system and the results here. My understanding of that audit was there was possibly one person registered, but that that person hadn't voted. Again, there's back and forth on those numbers. But for us to say that, introducing barriers to voting to include things like poll taxes that we've seen in the past, if you have to pay to get your id, or if you have to vote in every single election to keep your election status appropriate, doesn't land well with people who have jobs and multiple jobs and kids and maybe may miss an election and then don't have a birth certificate to go make sure they're re-registered. And I think we want people to feel like the system is for them and in support of them and not constantly working to keep them out of it. And I just want that piece to be inserted into the dialogue.

Thank you, Mr. President. Question, how does this accommodate non-ambulatory residents that are citizens?

How does it affect them? I don't think it affects 'em at all because they, they're currently registered or are participating in the system. So it has no bearing on them. They've already done all this, and we're not changing anything. We're just, we're again, identifying if you want to register as a voter, you haven't been there before. Here's a number of different pieces of paper that will proof your identity. We're not asking for multiple, we're asking for one form of ID so that we can register you that. So if you're here illegally, yeah, you'll have to go through these steps. You're gonna have to go through immigration. You're gonna have to get here. Legally. We'll give him a ballot to, to, uh, vote on a federal election. But in the state elections, no. We're gonna make sure that you're a citizen.

Senator Sandall Fo follow up. Thank you, Mr. President. So if, uh, a current voter, um, is in the system, will they not have to one time go and identify themselves with their documentation to a clerk or whoever's designated

The, the bill spells out the, the county clerks that are doing the registration and that it's up to them. And if you can satisfy them, they're the ones that have the, the say in whether or not you, you'll have a ballot or not. If you're currently registered in that, you'll continue to be on the rolls.

Maybe no follow up question, but I'm, I am a little confused. If we have citizens who are already on the rolls, um, and they don't have to show the citizenship, or someone that is now ambulatory, non-ambulatory and wants to begin to vote how there's an accommodation there. And if this bill file just leaves it up to the county clerk to decide who's a citizen or not, or if everyone has to actually show in person. That's, that's my question that I, that I still need answered. Maybe the the sponsor can do that in some

Mr. President. I, I, I wanna rise to support. I, I've watched this legislation with some concerns and thoughts about, um, are we trying to solve a problem that we don't have? But I wanna remind, um, my colleagues as well as Mr. President that, uh, it's already in our constitution. Our constitution clearly states that, uh, there's a requirement to be a citizen to vote. Our, our founding fathers of the state and the Constitution found it fit to put it in there. They put it in there. Other states, surprisingly don't have that. But this has been thoughtfully worked in a manner that I think is approachable or, uh, uh, implementable by the clerks. It creates a verification mechanism rather than pure attestation. And it lines the state ballot, uh, with documentary confirmation. I, i i, and it's also clear that it preserves the federal access while asserting state authority. Um, in so doing it, it it, it allows for a path that doesn't reject the federal forms. This is a, this is a clear path to, to align ourselves with what our constitution dictates. And I understand the concerns, but as the good sponsor had stated, if more than zero is a problem, and we need to make sure that we align with our constitution with what mechanically happens in our voting process.

One of the things that's oftentimes been cited is the, the letter from the Lieutenant governor talking about one confirmed non-citizen who didn't vote that that, that there is no problem, but you gotta keep reading the letter 'cause there's more information in there that is helpful to this. There were 486 people who had incomplete information, and of that about two thirds of which were born outside of the United States, and they couldn't find any information. And they sent letters asking for the very type of information to confirm that they could vote. And these were active voters. So there's about two thirds of that 486 that were active voters that they couldn't confirm whether they were citizens or not. And then, and they had already voted, and they had, and the Lieutenant Governor's office sent them letters saying, please provide the very information that's being requested. Now, look, you know, I don't know that this is an a, a huge problem or a small problem, but cleaning up the voter roles is the primary thing we can do in a state that is vote by mail. And so if you're, if there's a weak point in the system of voting that we've really pioneered throughout the, the country, it is, if you don't keep your voter rolls clean, that's where you're going to have problems later on. And we've had a few instances where they've sent voter roll votes to, uh, in primaries to non-party members. And they've sent, you know, they're, they're, we've had our own growing pains through this process, but it's all about the voter roll. And anything we can do to keep that voter roll as clean and complete as pro as possible, it it not only, uh, not only make sure that the people that can vote, vote, but that their vote is not watered down by people who cannot vote. And so, for that reason, I do support this bill. Thank you.

Hey, thank you for the discussion and, and I appreciate the comments because we feel like we do a really good job here in the state of Utah. Is there room for improvements or is there doubt? We need to address those things and so we're not making any new law. We're following. If you're a citizen of the US then just prove that you are. And if you have currently been voting, that process has already taken place. But for those that are worried about having to come up with all this additional information, no, it's not that difficult. One piece of paper will, will get you there and get you registered and from then on you, you've got it. And, uh, I mean, you have to provide this if you go get a passport, people that don't travel, they still have an ID of some sort. So this just tightens up the rule operating rules for, for the Lieutenant Governors who is over the elections and our county clerks who administer it, it gives them their marching orders. Is this is how we can clear this up. It does nothing more than that. And, and with that, I would appreciate your support on the bill and President. I, I would move that, uh, third substitute house Bill 2 0 9 pass. Thank you. Or be read for a third time. Thank you.

There's the old saying about, you know, showing your budget shows your priorities. Uh, this was the fiscal note for this bill wasn't so much discussed during the basises now, but this bill, uh, is gonna spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to address a problem that we have seen one time, uh, according to what the sponsor just said and what we, uh, can all see in this audit recently. So, uh, I think this is, uh, not fiscally sound. This is, uh, a direction that we don't need to go in, uh, to address a problem that really does not exist, that has not affected our elections. Uh, and so I would, uh, I would ask others to, to vote no as I will be doing now. So I'm a no.

And thank you Mr. President. I just wanna rise and ex explain my vote. Uh, this bill was presented at the committee that I participate in, and I, I think what worries me is a conversation. Um, I don't know that there's any debate on our current, not, I mean, laws in our state that only US citizens have the right to vote. And I haven't met anyone that disagrees with that premise and is what the law is. I think the concern that I've been raising through this whole conversation is, um, suppression of US citizens able to exercise the right to vote, the more difficult you make, it's a burden on US citizens. This is not a conversation about individuals that are not US citizens. They can't vote. And so, um, and again, um, the audit that was presented by our lieutenant governor explained that process, that there was only one person that was not a US citizen registered. That was what the conclusion was, and that that person didn't, you know, vote. So, uh, again, this is not a debate on whether individuals that are not US citizens have a right to vote. They don't have a right to vote and they should not be voting is what are the burdens that we're putting on US citizens to make it more difficult for them to vote. And for that reason, I'll be voting on this bill.

Mr. President, I vote. Aye I was a little bit skeptical about this bill, but with a third sub, uh, Lieutenant Governor told me it actually, uh, solve some problems and, and is a helpful bill. And so I wanna commend the, the house and the Senate sponsors for working with the elections office. And I vote, aye.

Thank you Mr. President Pro Tem. Uh, this was one of the three, uh, election bills that we had about the first week of the session. Senator Mikel had one and this is, uh, a chunk that he took outta his and we ran it on this bill. It identifies and sets up the criteria for what voter ID is. It's nothing different than what we've already had in that we explained that a driver's license, um, identification cards, uh, tribal identification cards and that these are all ways that you can I, uh, show your identity to register to vote. A lot of people's got this mixed up with the federal, uh, registration process, which is, uh, more, um, in depth, uh, proof of uh, who you are. So this is, uh, just a simplified method in our state. We haven't had problems, but it sets the criteria out for that. That's pretty much what this bill does. It's a long, large bill but contains about, uh, 30 lines here of corrections. Okay? Thank you for that.

I have an amendment, yes. The drafting attorney came to me afterwards and said in his haste, he forgot to put a word in so he went and made that amendment. So I'd like to move the first amendment or amendment to in my name.

for summation or a motion? I would motion that Third sub substitute house bill 2 0 9 pass. And the reque.

Senator Vickers Baldry Aye. Lewin Brammer. Aye. Bus colmore Escamia Fillmore. Aye. Grover Harper Aye. Hankins Aye. Ipson Aye. Johnson. Aye. K. Juab McKay Mikel Milner Aye. Musselman Aye. Owens Aye. Pitcher Plum pitcher? No. Rebe, no sandal. Aye. Stevenson Aye. Stratton Aye. Bickers Weiler Aye. Wilson. Aye. Winterton President Adams

Thank you Mr. President Pro Tem. Um, with Utah, looking to the future, this is a significant bill

of the president, Madam Marine Clerk Third Substitute House Bill 2 0 9 Voting amendments by Representative Maloy.

Thank you Mr. Speaker. I'd like to make a motion to concur with the, uh, Senate.

Yes. Just real quick. Uh, the uh, amendments that were made over there, uh, were generated from myself and given to the Senate sponsor. They basically just make a technical change to make sure it's clear on how the declaration is given to people who may need to show their, uh, US citizenship and, uh, uh, a slight correction to it. One of the dates in the bill. That's it.