S.B. 111 Veterinary Post-employment Amendments: transcript

thank you Senate Bill one 11. First sub veterinarian post-employment amendments. Time of yours. Oftentimes, I'm the one accused of having interesting conversations, so mine's pretty straightforward. Good? Yes. Um, thank you all committee. I am here to present, and apologies for the battery situation happening this morning on Senate Bill one 11, which, uh, addresses veterinary post employment agreements or non-compete clauses. And I, you know, had had discussions with others. I know there have been a couple of different bills taking a couple different takes on this, um, this session. And it's been interesting to me to listen to some of our colleagues from past sessions, even, you know, a decade ish back. And, and I, I really feel like there's been a lot more thought ar around this topic. And so I, I'm kind of interested to hear, obviously your thoughts as well. So this bill, the goal of this bill is really to create, uh, more of a free and open marketplace in our veterinary medicine space, as well as hopefully to help increase the number of veterinarians that are practicing in our state. Checking in with our doppel office and with our folks at USU who keep an eye on veterinary sciences and, and our veterinarians here. About three years ago, it was estimated that Utah had a 15% shortage in veterinarians available per capita compared to the rest of the nation. Now, as of even just this last week or so, when we contacted it with our numbers, with our growing population, we now have 24% fewer veterinarians per capita than the national average making us 42nd out of 50. There are 24 out of 29 counties that say they have veterinary shortages. And in hearing from the practitioners who work in this space, there's certainly a number of things that contribute to this, but one that has been very restrictive and in some ways anti-competitive has been these non-compete clauses being very rampant in the industry. And, and so for me looking into it, I wanted to see how can we still, how can we find a mix where we work out being, uh, protective and fair to employers that, you know, intellectual property is protected investment in employees, uh, new employees in particular is protected because it does cost to bring in a new employee, right? To get 'em trained up, to get 'em used to your, your, the way you work. There's a slower work pace when somebody comes on compared to when they get up there. And so what was really important to me was that there was still a way in Utah law, contract, law contract, employment law, that we could protect such a thing. And there is, uh, some call it a reimbursement clause, some call it a claw back clause. But you can build into a contract with someone, Hey, it's gonna cost me, I dunno, I'm just gonna throw out some random numbers, $60,000 to invest in you as an employee in the first three years. So if you leave after X amount of time, you're gonna owe me 20,000 or two years, 40,000 or something like that sort of a thing. So it was very important to me to make sure that we still had those kind of protections for businesses, but that our folks that work, our veterinarians that work in the space, could still stay committed to Utah, could still practice here, could come here, perhaps start to learn the lay of the land, the what sort of practice they wanna have, what sort of community they wanna work in, and that they could still stay if they decided they no longer wanted to be in that initial employment space. Um, I, I work in, in human medicine, but for me, one of the proudest things I do is train our replacements. I, I don't see that I'm training someone I need to fear. I see that I'm training someone who is a colleague or someone who's gonna take care of the community with me. And so, you know, in talking to some of my colleagues in the Senate, and again, I'll be interested in, in your take from the house side, um, we build better industries and better workspaces and better folks that, that serve our communities because we wanna take care of our communities as they grow. So with that being said, um, it, it, I hope that it will build access, uh, excuse me, improve access to veterinary care, both in the small animal and in the large animal. And, and so in our big cities and our rural spaces as well, I hope that it'll strengthen our workforce retention and recruitment. I hope that it'll continue to support small businesses and, uh, foster healthy competition. Um, and I hope that it will protect Utah in keeping good folks here that want to be part of our communities and contribute, but that don't have contracts that essentially give them no choice, uh, but to leave the state. Um, I think with that, I'm certainly open to any questions. Um, we did add in our, there, the one kind of change that happened to this bill was we wanted to make it very clear that this was starting on the day after someone had exited employment. Um, these are for going forward contracts. It doesn't do anything to contracts that are already in existence, and also that it does not touch any other area of contract law. So the things like the clawback spaces that I was talking about, those are all completely left in place. Thank you.

Good morning. My name is Andre Ov. I'm veterinarian and practice owner in, um, Millcreek, Utah. Um, I've been practice owner for over 10 years, and, uh, we, um, as veterinarians when not as versed in contract laws, and a lot of times when somebody says, this is industry str, industry standard, we just accepted. And then, uh, later we find out that, you know, it's, we should, we should negotiate on that, or we shouldn't sign that contract in in the first place. Um, I, I think this, uh, bill will help to retain veterinarians in, uh, Utah, especially in rural areas. We have less than, less than 15% of veterinarians want to own practice. And most of those that leave their employment and want to stay in rural area, they will open their own practice. Um, I think that will help both, um, animal owners in the cities and as well as, uh, rural folks too. Thank you for your comments.

You, Mr. Chair.

Do you know this, uh, prevents them going forward? I wondered if you thought about invalidating them going backward. 'cause these are really, I find a drag on the economy in my legal experience. They, people enter into a contract thinking the world's gonna go one way, and then it changes, and they need to be able to disentangle and move on. And these are just, I think, miserable things to work through. Um, and so anyway, wondering why you don't want to go backward with it.

We had those conversations, didn't we? With, uh, the drafting attorneys, et cetera. And, and because we see that same kind of thinking, but, uh, the way that we understand it or the the way that it was kinda presented to us during those, um, discussions is that we would really face some pretty significant probably constitutional and federal challenges in undoing pre-existing contracts. And I can see why, you know, as the ebbs and flows of politics go, that if every four years, for example, somebody wanted to go back and undo everything that had happened from the four years before, that's probably not the best policy stance on in any space, not just in contract law. So that was the conversation that we had and, and that made me feel like that was perhaps a bigger bite than I was capable of chewing.

Just quick question. How, how often are these happening? I don't work in this space at all. At all. Or we don't actually even have a full-time office in San Juan County, period. Like, there's not a vet office in the county. Um, so how often are these actually, like, is this a pretty competitive market? Is it drawing people down, or do we just not have the availability of, of vets? And you may be able to speak to this a little better, that with more granularity, but the way I've been seeing it after talking to, and I don't know if we have folks who've, um, called in online. 'cause I know it's a clinic day for a lot of folks, so they couldn't be here. But, um, on some level it does feel to me in listening to people, like it has become a corporate, kind of veterinary medicine standard that these are put into place in a lot of the more big corporate veterinary practices, not necessarily the single or, you know, a couple practitioners, but in those big corporate practice structures, they're, they're pretty common. Makes sense. Is that, is that what your experience has been?

Yes. It, it happens all the time. And especially with corporate practices. My good example, I came here because corporate practice moved me here after my contract expired. I didn't want to stay there, but very much, if I didn't buy the practice in Millcreek, I will be driven out of state. And we have a shortage of veterinarians, rural or city, it doesn't matter. We have a shortage.

Yeah. Thank you. Uh, Senator Palmer, just questioning, you said you're in the medical field for humans. Yeah. And I know talking that's ideal deal with, and our dairy producers, uh, especially in this get inside the big cities, they almost all are corporate and they work on small animals, like has been said. Does this not happen in human medicine too? If you go work for HC or something like that? Is there non-compete clauses? If I leave there?

I, I think there's a pattern of it shifting. Um, I have seen, um, I don't have one, so, so it's a little hard for me to say. And I've stayed in my same job for, uh, since 2004, so 22 years. But I, I have heard from a lot of folks in, in human medicine the same thing. And, and that's why I was really glad to see Representative Hall's Bill addressing this, that we're kind of crossing, you know, ships crossing in the night, um, her bill coming over from the house. And it was also fascinating to see from the discussions around her bill that there wasn't a lot of pushback from, uh, the big medical entities, which I had assumed that there would be. Um, I, I think there really is a, a shift in thought around non-competes. I think, uh, you know, Representative Owens mentioned being an attorney, attorneys aren't even, they, they can't have non-competes. They're considered non-ethical in the profession. And so I think that the, the time has kind of shown that this is not the best contract piece. I mean, and frankly, free market competition. You know, when, when I think of what America is, that's kind of one of the biggest pieces to me is, is if you're good at something, you're gonna succeed with hope. Right? So, um, I I feel like it's going away in, in both medical spaces. I like the results of the bill and I just, when you get in the cities versus in the county, in the outside areas, my area where I live used to be very rural. It's getting more and more difficult to find a doctor without going through a corporate system. That's a problem. I think I agree for veterinarians as well.

Well, and I'm actually glad you brought that up because there was a question from my senate colleagues, why are we carving out individual professions? Um, and, and that seal had kind of been broken with that legislation that, that Senator Hemer run, ran on, on broadcast journalism spaces. And, and it, my hope is that the seal break continues and that this will be more broad across other professions.

Good morning. I'm Dr. Christina Buck out, and I represent myself. Um, I am a board certified veterinary surgeon in the state of Utah. I moved here in 2015 from OUTTA state to be closer to family. And over the years I've helped as many Utah pets as I possibly can, as I've navigated my own non-competes, um, working as a specialty surgeon. More recently, I've become a small business owner. Um, me and a few and, and two others are investing in Salt Lake City to start our own multi-specialty emergency veterinary practice. It'll be independently owned and operated, no outside private equity or corporate involvement. And what has now really become apparent is as I'm recruiting doctors to work with me, um, how absolutely devastating non-competes can be to families in Utah, veterinarians. So in specialty, small animal specialty medicine, it's a little bit different than general veterinary practice. Um, these individuals, there are maybe one to three individuals offering this specialty service to our state. So these individuals, if they have a non-compete people I'm talking to in recruitment, they are leaving our state. They are entertaining leaving our state for a year. Um, and that takes that specialty care, um, with them for a year. And that Robs Utah pet owners of that specialized care. And it robs our state of that money, honestly. It, it leaves and it doesn't come back for a year. And it's, the one thing that I find as a, a mother devastating, is I'm talking to people who are breaking apart their families for a year. Spouses are separated, um, mothers and fathers are leaving their small children for a year to leave the state and then eventually come back. And it's never been apparent how harmful these are, um, to the state of Utah until I've started recruiting. What I'm asking is for you to support this bill. So there is never another Utah veterinarian who has to separate their family for a year to keep the money that veterinarians are making, specifically specialists in our state. Instead of it walking away. I can give specific examples of this happening in specialty medicine. There were, um, a few questions about like, how much is corporate in specialty. Um, the A VMA reports over 90% of specialty ar er practices in the US are owned by corporations. Please help me support local, independent veterinarians and our Utah veterinarians. Keep 'em in our state. I've invested, I'm investing literally millions in this state to help these pets. Please help me do so. Keep our families together.

Uh, I'd like to move, uh, out of this committee with a favorable recommendation, SB one 11 first sub veterinary post-employment amendments Motions in order. Would you like to speak to it? Just, yeah. Uh, it's, it, it's really critical. There's a lot of businesses, uh, having come from a small business, uh, myself, uh, these can be devastating for the families and people trying to make a living. And so, Senator, I appreciate you bringing this forward

Uh, I, I appreciate as always, the dialogue and, um, I, I really think this is the right path. So with much appreciation for support.

Thank you. Thank you.

This is a bill that I, I really look forward to hearing what the committee's thoughts are on. And I know I'm not certain how many folks are here to speak in person. I know that we have been receiving emails from many of the folks that are impacted in this space. Um, I, I mean, we, being you all as a committee and me as the sponsor of, uh, this bill and this bill is surrounds the area of non-complete Pete agreements in, in employment contracts. And it's, it's something, you know, non-complete. Something I've heard about in, in medical spaces before. I've heard about in other conversations before, and I've never really had to think about it very deeply in terms of the impacts that it has on those that are, um, in the employment space as well as in the communities for the, where those employees are working. And also on the bigger scale for like, how it impacts our economies and our communities. And I have had a, a more opportunity than I could have imagined. And ev with every conversation I have, I get more and more drawn in and more and more interested in it. I am admittedly, I think most of you know, I, I have a, a softness for are little more vulnerable things, whether that's our children, whether that's the animals in the world, it's, it's something that I tend to gravitate into. I'm probably gonna be the one that you all are gonna have to pull my hand away when I say, can I pet that when I shouldn't. Um, so I, I spend a decent amount of time getting veterinary care. I, I adopt and rescue senior animals. And so there's a fair amount feeder dogs in specific, and I spend a decent amount of time in veterinary spaces, and I've come to appreciate so much what they provide, um, not only to me, but to other families and to those animals and, and to the community at large. As a part of that. And in some of those conversations, I ha started to learn more about some of the difficulties that exist for veterinarians working in our state. And I've seen other bills go through the ag committees, et cetera, and they're a little bit more large animal related. How do we keep enough veterinarians to help us care for our agricultural populations? How do we keep enough providers of animal medical services in some of our smaller communities? How do we keep it affordable? Uh, all these sort of conversations I've heard, but I'd not heard about this concept of, of one thing in particular that was really keeping people from staying in Utah. And that was the prevalence. And I've come to find out a really, I'd almost say a predominance of non-compete clauses, especially when it comes to corporate veterinary practices. And what happens with this then it's a lot of times maybe a younger practitioner who comes in, they're excited to move to Utah, they, they, they're excited to come here for the reason that all of us love it here. And they find themselves in a job that for whatever reason, doesn't end up working for them. Whether it's, you know, different corporate cultures or different practice expectations. I think all of us can think back to jobs we've taken and gone, yeah, that wasn't a good fit. Oh, I'm gonna find a better fit. And then realizing you can't find a better fit because you have something that, for example, says you can't work within 25 miles of the job that you have now. And if you are a veterinary internist or a veterinary specialist, an oncologist, an ophthalmologist, that means you essentially have to leave the Salt Lake Valley. And that also means you're probably gonna have to leave the state because there's not going to be another environment that can support what you have. And you can't necessarily ask people to drive all of that way. So I have these conversations, I start talking to others about non-compete legislation, and it turns out this session, there's actually a couple of pieces in, in a couple of different arenas. And there's three pieces. There's the non-compete piece about the actual contractual agreement of where you are allowed to work, how far for whom that kind of deal. There's the non-solicit piece, which means who are you allowed to tell about your new climate? Who are you allowed to tell, oh, I've left that practice, I've gone to a new space. Or are you allowed to tell at all? And then there's a non-disclosure piece. Are you able to tell someone things about your experience there? Now, I appreciate non-disclosure when it comes to proprietary information, business secrets, trade secrets, like there should be no sharing of that sort of information. This isn't that sort of space really. This, this is a, a space that I would hope if I had a veterinarian or a specialist, uh, change to another place that they'd be able to say, Hey, plum, I'm gonna be down at 7,200 South and Highland now, or I'm gonna be wherever so that I could continue care and not be required to stein up with a whole new, um, care provider. This does, it turns out happen in, in human care spaces as well. So I, I'm gonna be curious to see what people's thoughts are and, and how we translate that across. But I think ultimately, and at the risk of, you know, if you read any of the letters from these, uh, veterinary specialists and care providers, they're gonna speak to it much better than I, uh, can. And in fact, Finn, I don't know, did you give them the, okay, you have these letters in print. If you're like me, I read much better in print than I do on the computer. And they explain situations in which they've had to cut back on their incomes to go part-time to get through a, a non, or, I mean, excuse me, a non-compete period. They de describe losing colleagues out of state. They describe one person who is, um, uh, one of three veterinary internists in the state who's had to consider potentially leaving. And I don't see Utah as a state that wants to punish people for working hard, getting a ton of debt, wanting to care for our communities, and wanting to provide excellent care and being driven out by corporate interests that don't meet the needs of our communities or of these individuals who have gone down a career path. And we're lucky enough to land in Utah. So this bill essentially, um, I'm going back to my, I still have 1 0 2 up, I'm going up. This bill essentially says that we are not going to allow non-compete clauses in the veterinary medicine space, there's a lot of breadth and broadness, uh, to the language around non-solicitation and non-disclosures. 'cause I'd actually like to know what Utah wants for that. I don't know that I have the best prescriptive ability. And so I'm admittedly saying I left that pretty open. Uh, as we move through this policymaking process, I'd like us to define what some of that is. I'd like some of those conversations to come about. Um, I, I think honestly, the interests can be best represented by any of the folks who are either online. Many of them, we only gave 'em 24 hours to speak, have clinic, uh, responsibilities. I know we do have here with us, a couple here with us as well. And then I'm open to all the thinking and suggestions and, uh, I just really feel strongly that this is something that Utah, um, should move forward on. And, and I'm hopeful that you feel the same way about it.

good Senator Ipson. My name is Andrew Teso. I'm veterinarian. I live and practice in Millcreek, Utah, and I own my own practice. I moved in Utah 11 years ago now because I was recruited by a corporate, uh, company. And, um, I was going to manage the 24 hour hospital. And, um, initially I was presented with a contract that, um, included 15 mile radius on non-compete. And, um, if I, the hospital wasn't in Sandy, and if I signed that contract, then I will be, um, forced to leave the state. Well, definitely Salt Lake County and probably the state too. If I, um, if something didn't work out with, uh, that hospital, um, I was able to reduce it to seven miles because IN negotiated my contract. Many veterinarians don't negotiate their contracts. They, they just signed them how they're presented. And, um, I, I traveled quite a bit. I lived in five countries and, um, in 10 states, and Utah was the very first place that I wanted to stay for longer than just one year contract. Um, and when I finished working at the corporate clinic, I, um, could not work at any other emergency clinics in Salt Lake County. Um, I was lucky enough that I found a clinic, uh, for sale just outside of my non-compete area. Um, many veterinarians are not that lucky. They, um, we, I, I, I'm very reluctant to refer my patients to internal medicine and other specialists because they come in, they work their contract, and then they leave the state. And I have to start complex cases from scratch. I'd rather to keep going on them and just have, you know, outside consultants. Um, sometimes it hurts our patients a lot of times. Um, it also hurts, um, Utah families because they have additional expenses in, um, in veterinary care. Um, non-competes in veterinary medicine also affect, uh, rural communities. I've seen non-compete contracts that include 25 miles, and sometimes it's, uh, covering two, three towns. And when veterinarians in rural communities leave, then we already have shortage of large animals and mixed animal vets. And it, it is hurting those communities too. Um, I've discussed this bill with many, um, independent practice owners, and I have not heard the word of opposition. Um, they all agree that it's carefully balanced. Uh, it preserves non-compete tied to ownership and to sales of business. It protects trade secrets and allowing licensed professionals to continue practicing where they need it. Thank you.

It does. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Okay.

Yeah. So, um, one of the most, uh, bitter and contested issues I've ever dealt with in 14 sessions is non-competes. Mm-hmm. Oh. Um, and it was before your time. Um, but I can, I mean, there are hundreds of professions, uh, in Utah, and I, I can't possibly comprehend why we would pass a law banning non-competes for veterinarians, but allowing them for everything, everyone else. Um, I don't, I don't, I don't think veterinarians are minors. I don't think they're disabled. I don't need, I don't think that they need special protections because they can't read a contract. Um, so I'm, I'm having a, a real difficulty wondering how veterinarians is such a unique profession that we should carve out this special law for them, uh, and leave all the other professions untouched. So I'm wondering if you can address that.

Yeah, and, and I would respond, I, is there a reason We carved it out for broadcast professionals, which We didn't, Which doc? Dan ert, excuse me, former Senator ert. We, we live in it to a year for all professions. There's, there's a bunch of protections for broadcast professionals that are in the current code, like specifically for broadcast professionals. So, while I hear you, I do think that we have shown when there is a uniqueness as well as benefit that far outweighs a potential detriment that there is something there. I do think also that there is a bill, uh, running from the house that Representative Clancy is running, um, on that's very broad with non-competes. There's also one from Representative Hall, And I'll vote against those two. Right. So, so I, I think there is a bit of this. Let's start having the conversations. Um, I think, um, that for me, sometimes, and maybe this is because I'm coming from the minority party, sometimes starting small and not going with the full explosion is actually a way to look at, maybe, maybe there's something to this. There's also maybe a way to call it back if it, you know what I mean? If it ended up being a harmful something, it's a lot easier to put a tiny genie in a bottle than a, than an enormous one. Right. So I I hear you. I think that the particular harm that is happening across our communities and to these professionals who've committed themselves to us with very little detriment by giving them some extra protections, mandates the conversation for me that, I mean, that's where I'm coming from. I do hear you, but that's where I'm coming from.

Mr. Chair, can I follow up please? Um, what if the unintended consequence of your bill is now a veterinarian's not willing to take on a, a young, uh, apprentice because they don't want to, uh, to invest in them, train them, teach them how to run a business, teach them how to market, um, prop them up in the community only to have them leave after a year or two and take half their clients with them. What if the unintended consequence now is you have, uh, young veterinarians who can't get jobs because there's no protection for the person hiring them?

Well, something that I learned, and, and Dr. Tarasoff can speak more to this, something that I learned is that, uh, a veterinary internship slash residency, the way it works in medicine is that there's a whole process, right? You go through the match and you apply to places that you think are a good fit for you, and they meet you and then they match who they think fits where. Um, and it, and there's like almost a contractual thing that happens. That's not as much what happens in veterinary medicine. People sign up and actually do the internships with, and you can speak more to what this looks like, but they're coming in for, is it five years or how long is the practice for the internship piece? They're coming in and actually being trained as part of their whole licensure, becoming an independent practitioner. So I do think there's a bit of a pipeline to feed those new folks into. I also have to think that at the end of any trainees space, you're always going to run the risk that somebody likes the m better than you. Whether that's an electrician, whether that's a plumber, whether that's a, A senator, Uh, gosh, I hope so, but yes. But yes, whatever those jobs may be that you, somebody trains you up and it may turn out that they're better than you and, and that there's an acknowledgement amongst professionals that there are better fits for clients, especially in care spaces. There are better fits. And you say, so be it. I I cannot picture with the current climate that is happening. We do not have enough veterinarians. You, you hear this from our state vet and our ag spaces. You hear this from everyday citizens. You hear this from people who have limited resources especially. But even folks, I'll, I'll admit, I, I have a decent okayness in my resources and I struggle. I can't find a veterinary oncologist to help take care of this little 15-year-old critter that I have. So I, I don't see on the horizon that, um, doomsday that, that you're referring to. But I, again, understand why that's important to you to put into the dialect. Um, I think that free market means more than just protecting businesses. I think that free market means protecting the individuals doing the labor and the work. And I think it, it also means protecting the resources that are provided to our community. So that, I suppose if that nutshells where I'm coming from, that's, that's it for me.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I, I, I've never attended veterinarian school, but I have watched five and a half seasons of all creatures great and small. Oh. So I, I feel like I'm a little bit of an expert, so it's a great Show. I I'm talking about the new one, not the one from 40 years ago. Yeah, Both. It's PBSI guess that's both are six about to come out. Yeah, Both are good. Is there anything you'd like to add to that too? To what I said? If I can? Um, I, I, I graduated 25 years ago, and when, when I came at the same time I came to the United States, uh, and, uh, when, when I told somebody random that, you know, I just met in conversation that ture near and they say, well, you can poke anywhere on the US map and you can find a job there in 15 minutes. And then I've heard multiple times throughout my career that we're going to have shortage of veterinarians. Uh, sorry. We have, we'll have too many veterinarians. And I haven't seen that day yet. And we, we don't have enough veterinarians from standpoint of business ownership. Honestly. Like if I, if I train a young veterinarian and they, um, open a practice two miles away from me, I'm not going to be upset. Um, there is enough business for everybody. We, we just overwhelmed right now. We, so I don't think that will be, um, unfair business or anything. Uh, and I, and I don't think Utah will not get any young veterinarians, uh, because of this law. Thanks. Thank

So the FTC tried to issue a nationwide non-compete ban back in what, 2024. And then that was overturned because it was, it was a non-compete that rolled in non-disclosure and non-solicitation. And I don't know the case particularly, but, uh, but I know generally and, and they, they were overturned and pushed back because it was too broad. And so there's a whole patchwork of this non-compete compete states. There's like five or six of 'em that have the support, the banning of non-competes. Um, but I, I, I, generally speaking, I don't like non-compete. So I, this falls favorably to my ears, but I have the same concerns that that was previously just, uh, expressed by Senator Wier. And that is, is this the way to do it? Pick one particular, you know, and kind of go at it. I, I don't know that, that makes me a little bit nervous. But also if I, I, and you may not be able to be the ones to be able to tell me this, but is, is the market just shifting away from it? There's all, there's, there's this pressure nationally, FT C doesn't like non-competes. There are states that have banned it, generally speaking, I think California, California, Wyoming, uh, Minnesota, I, I'm trying to go off memory here, but have all banned them. But is the market just going that way? I mean, are, is it less and less prevalent? I know it was prevalent on the time. Is it less prevalent now? Is this Shana naturally go away without being isolated?

That's A great question to me. Oh, Mr. Chair, if I may, um, please. Uh, it sure doesn't seem like it when I talk to the professionals. I mean, there's even some of these corporate folks that are throwing in bits about giving an ownership of 0.001% so that they, even if a non-compete piece goes through that, uh, then they wouldn't be able to enforce it because it's an owner, which is why I put the 5%, there's a piece in there about an ownership of greater than 5%. Um, because I, I don't think it's going in away. And I think that from what I'm seeing and hearing from the practitioners, it's getting more and more abusive. Um, and, and the providers as well as our community members ultimately who are paying, are the ones who are paying the price. And, and I think I'm also additionally bothered, you know, these are big corporations. None of 'em are in Utah. They're all owned outta state. They're all out of Utah sort of spaces. I don't feel like there's, they don't care about what's happening here. And, and I just don't, I don't know what I know of Utah. We don't punish people who come to be a part of our communities and provide good services in our communities. And I don't see it getting better. I, I see it getting worse. So again, I I I have a, I I have a lot of thoughts, but I also don't know all the answers. And so

Is it, is it the same for, you have the same issue for, for instance, Dennis?

It's the same issue. I mean, it's the same issue. Yeah. So I, I'm not saying that I don't like them. I don't, I don't like them. Yeah. I don't like noncompetes. Yeah. But it's the same in issue in the dental world. So we're, we're picking winners and losers somewhat here.

Yeah. Now I, I don't know if that's the right direction or not. I I, I'm inclined to vote for it. Mm-hmm. Just because I, I'm, I'm not a fan of non-compete in the first place. Sure. But it may be, it may be that it's a bit broad and if you restrain a little better, it might land in a better place. 'cause you've got, uh, it's non-disclosures. Yeah. It's, I mean, you can't, I mean, yeah, if I'm, if I'm a, if I, I'm, I'm on the side of, if I own a practice, yeah. I'm not gonna, because I, I, I may actually have a trade secret. Maybe, maybe there's not one in veterinary. Maybe. Maybe. But maybe there is, maybe there's not, I don't know if this Better UTIs than somebody Else. Something like that. Yeah. Maybe they do push away. They shoot it. I don't know. Yeah. Um, maybe they don't have it, but I could see some hesitancy there. But maybe something that isn't quite so broad might be the better way to land it. But for what it's worth, thank Mr. Chair.

No, and, and I do appreciate that. And like I said, I, I intentionally left a, a decent amount of broadness there because I think there are conversations amongst, especially folks in the business, communities, in the legal communities, like, help me out. Help me craft something smarter here. Um, I I, if I were designing a, a, a human, I mean, if I were designing a care, uh, bill, I think I would actually include human and animal care, dentists, doctors, all the other ones. You might see why there's a conflict of interest there for me to, to dive into that. Um, I, again, I, the more and more I think and thought about it, it's this, what if we had a specific tailored arena that doesn't have all these proprietary trade secrety spots and a true need for these professionals? What if we did, I dunno if the thought experiment is the right answer there, but what if we did look at it and see what happens? That's certainly been in my brain as part of this too admitting. And I am open to all the thoughts on, you know, as far as what the language is. I don't, I'm not married to any of it. I, I would like us to work together to craft potential thoughtful pieces, is if you, just to help you understand where I'm coming from.

Hi, I'm Dr. Christina, buck out. Um, I'm representing myself. And, um, I basically arrived in Utah in 2015, three days after my surgical residency because I couldn't wait to get here. Um, I'm originally from Florida, left California to come to Utah to practice my North Star. If you ask anyone, my husband, my kids, my colleagues, is to help as many pets as possible. Um, I am only one of about 10 full-time practicing, uh, boarded veterinary surgeons in this state. Um, and so basically non-competes really interfere with our North star of helping patients. Um, and I wanna just provide a few very unique examples 'cause it is a very unique bill and we're a unique field. Um, for example, I have a colleague, his name is Dr. Willem Becker. And he had to leave the state in 2017, take his two kids with him, his wife, and he went all the way to Philadelphia to escape this corporate non-compete that he was in. And he was the only veterinary surgeon in this state at that time, doing total joints. He still is, I think he wanted to be here, but he is replacing a hip right now. So when he left, we lost the ability to help those pets. And they're not just family members, some of them are working dogs. You think they are police officers that need a total hip replacement. Those did not stay in this state. They Uintah Idaho. And so, you know, we lost that for a whole year. Thankfully, he came back and brought that business back to Utah. Um, last month, um, I was accused by an out of state corporate corporate legal team that I was in violation of a non-existent, non-compete. And basically what they were trying to do is hurt our community. I am the only boarded surgeon in Utah that will fix a spinal fracture. I am one of two veterinary specialists who will do a lifesaving surgery called a sub to bypass a ureter, the other one sitting behind me. And he's locked in and non-compete right now. So those pets can't get help. Um, basically that legal team tried to Helper hurt us, and basically these are driving veterinarians away. They're hurting our patients. And I'm just asking the ability to practice my profession ethically, locally, and independently to provide the care that this community needs. Um, and I respectfully urge your support of SB 1 1 1. Thank you. Thank you.

Uh, thank you for your time. Senator Vickers. Uh, my name is Dr. Max Baranski. I am a board certified veterinary internal medicine specialist. Um, I moved to Utah in 2019 after my residency, and was one of the doctors that Dr. Plum Senator Plumb, um, referred to. I wound up here and signed a non-compete out of ignorance, to be fair. Um, and to be honest, it's because I did not think I would like Utah. And I thought, oh, if I have to leave my job and, and avoid my non-compete, I would, but I actually do really love it here and I wanna stay. Um, I have been, uh, privileged to wear multiple hats. Uh, clinician medical director of one of the largest specialty emergency hospitals in the state. Um, and also now a co-owner of a small animal clinic with my wife and colleague. Um, and I can very strongly say that non-competes are negatively impactful in all aspects of veterinary medicine that I've seen. Um, I am currently bound by a non-compete and a non-solicitation agreement. Um, I am actually the only veterinarian in the entire state that offers some interventional therapies. There is currently nobody able to do that in this state because I am under a non-compete agreement. So I would really love to do that. And I will reply to the Senator Weiler that the, the job did not teach me to do those things. They did not invest in me to do those things. And now, now I can't offer those to the community. So I am here strongly supporting SB one 11, um, and urge support as well. Senator Mu has a question for you.

That's what my alarm clock sounds like too. It's awful.

Oh dear. Um, so is there, I, I'm just curious, had, had you, had you, let's say you came to this state and, and you were aware when you signed that you were aware of that non-compete, would you, let's just say in this moment, would you have not assigned it? Would you have not signed the contract?

Knowing what I know now, I will never sign a non-compete ever again. Okay.

Alright. But you're here now and you're glad you're in Utah, apparently, huh? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, given, given what you know now and what you experienced, do you think there's an issue with somebody hiring somebody like you coming outta state that won't sign a and, and they simply, all right, you know what? We, we can't afford you to come in, take some of our clients 'cause that's, somebody's gonna follow you. Sure. You leave. They're going to, that's just reality. That's just not paying it otherwise. Yeah. Makes it difficult to recognize that, that that's gonna happen. I'm, I really like the idea of died non-compete. I think it's too broad. I think you, you probably have some legal problems if this goes forward. I, that's what I think. Yeah. I'm just looking at the FTC ruling and what happened there. I'm guessing, I'm thinking something, there's gotta be a happy medium, right? Where do you non-compete for a few years or something along those lines. I don't know. Or maybe it doesn't bring in the non-disclosure. I don't know. But this seems, I'm trying to figure out if I can offer something that keeps this actually survivable. 'cause I don't know that it is in its current state.

Yeah. If I may respond, Senator. Um, we have, uh, I think that Dr. Plums bill, um, sorry, I keep saying Dr. Plum, your senator today, um, Senator Plums Bill does protect some of those trade secrets. And you're, you're correct that clients will go looking for me no matter where I go, and I know that some are already. Um, but it does protect against, you know, using client lists or referring partner lists and taking that with me wherever I were to go. Um, and I can't just take that information and start hounding people to say, Hey, leave that practice because that, that is proprietary information for that business. Um, I think, you know, if I can speak to my time as medical director and seeing behind the curtain, so to speak, of big veterinary medicine, um, I know how much money veterinary hospitals are making right now, especially, especially specialty in emergency hospitals and they are not hurting.

One, one follow up question, please. Is this, and, and I'm, I'm doing, I'm having AI scrub as fast as I can to figure out Yeah. How prevalent this is and figure out where, where the, where the free market is in this world. Yeah. Is this more prevalent amongst the corporate veterinary world than, let's say a private smaller practice as far as non-competes? Um, is, and can, can you speak to that with some level of assurity or you, would you be

Yeah, I absolutely, I, I don't know the prevalence in independent practice, but I do know that it is incredibly prevalent in sort of larger veterinary groups or corporate practices. And about 90% based on the American Veterinary Medical Association, about 90% of specialty and emergency practices are corporate owned in this country. So the vast majority of high level veterinary medicine is going to be bound by non-compete.

Okay. Okay. Thank you. Um, next. Thank you very

Much. My name is Alexis PTIs and I'm the executive director of the Humane Society of Utah. And we support this bill or some iteration of it to improve animal welfare and access to care across the state. We have permanently open job positions for veterinarians that our nonprofit, please let me know if you're looking. Mm-hmm. Uh, and, um, you know, we cannot fill these positions. They're permanently open, which means we are limited in the number of animals we can help and the people and the families attached to them. And if you look at job sections of most animal welfare organizations that can afford to have vets on staff, you will see that they all have open positions as well. In our St. George location, we have people driving three hours to get access to affordable vet care to reach us. Non-compete clauses exacerbate the severe shortage of veterinarians across this country and compound the already heavy mental, emotional and financial toll of the profession. Uh, veterinary medicine experiences, high rates of burnout, compassion fatigue, educational debt, and mental health distress. Yet non-competes can trap veterinarians in unhealthy or unsustainable workplaces by restricting their ability to change jobs without relocating or leaving practice altogether. And we are being told that many are leaving the profession altogether. These limitations push veterinarians out of clinical care, reduce workforce capacity, and intensify caseloads for those who remain accelerating. Burnout and turnover. Eliminating non-complete causes helps stabilize the veterinary workforce and critically improves animal welfare by allowing vets to practice where they're most urgently needed. Thank you.

Okay. Hi there. Um, my name is Dr. Kathleen Timba. Um, and I'm a, uh, medical oncologist here in Millcreek. Um, I arrived in Utah in 2022, um, and I currently have a 20 mile, uh, non-compete, uh, on me right now. Um, and so I'm only one of two, uh, full-time medical oncologists in this state. Um, and so I, I just bring, um, to attention that if, you know, my current job, uh, uh, was unsatisfactory for me and I was to leave, um, it would just put a huge burden on the other one. Uh, medical oncologist in this state, state. Um, I currently have a, an at least one month waiting list to see me. I know the other oncologist has at least a two month, uh, waiting list to get in to see her. Um, uh, and so I just, I just wanted to bring that to attention.

Yeah. I'm Willam Becker. Uh, I currently live in Salt Lake City. I currently have a veterinary practice in Cottonwood Heights. Um, I am actually the doctor that, uh, Christina Buck out spoke about early. I moved to the state 12 years ago. I signed a non-compete as I saw no other option other than to sign the non-compete. I think that most graduates sign that, um, because they don't really see an option. And I think that they're kind of bullied into it. I can speak as to now, having worked at multiple other places, I have lost job opportunities because I refused to sign a non-compete in an area. And I can tell you that it is very hard to negotiate with a corporate employer, um, in terms of just even getting to whittle down a 30 mile radius to a 20 mile radius. Um, I personally moved my family halfway across the country to escape a non-compete, um, and moved back and I've started my own practice. I personally have hired a new graduate. I've, uh, hired somebody that's sitting for their veterinary surgery boards right now. Um, I will tell you, I do have a, they did sign a non-compete, but it's a one to two mile. It gives them plenty of room to move anywhere else in the valley. They just can't set up shop next door that this law passed. I would have no problem deleting the non-compete from their contract. In regards to the other questions that I've heard or brought up by the panel, I don't think that not having non-competes is going to prevent practices from hiring other veterinarians or new graduates because they're needed. We are in a shortage of veterinarians across the country, both in specialty medicine and in general practice. Thank

Hi there. Can you hear me okay? Yes, go ahead. Hi, so I'm Dr. Sam Fisher. I'm an emergency, uh, medicine veterinarian. I reside in Murray Salt Lake County. Um, I first moved out to Utah in 2021, and I was one of the first, uh, rotating interns in the state. And I'm forever thankful for the training that was provided here. Um, when I agreed to move out to Utah, it was through a match program similar to what, uh, Dr. Plum is describing, um, that people go through. And it contained a non-compete baked into the agreement that I couldn't negotiate out of. Um, upon completion of that program, I wasn't able to practice emergency medicine in Salt Lake County for a year. Um, and my partner and I almost had to move out of the state. As a emergency clinician, I don't maintain client lists. Um, my job is to help cover for our community at nighttime, predominantly when the family vet veterinarians are getting their much needed rest. Um, emergency clinics that are not able to staff all shifts, um, have been forced to turn away patients, um, or close for part of the week. And you can imagine, uh, how fearful that can be for owners as they're unable to obtain either life-saving care or reassurance for their family members. This, uh, non-compete bill definitely directly affects constituents access to care. Uh, many clinicians would love to stay within their community and serve their local communities following a completion of a training program. Um, but many can be forced to travel secretly work, or even move completely out of state in order to avoid these very expensive legal battles, uh, with previous employers during this post-employment period. This for an

I'll move that we pass with a favorable recommendation, SB one 11 veterinary post-employment amendments. And I'd like to speak to that if I can. Just really quickly Yes, go ahead. I, I, I, I think I've expressed it clearly. I have some my reservations. I think we are picking a specific, um, specific industry or profession where there's other professions that's clearly have the same issue. Uh, there, there may be some, uh, some wisdom and having o overarching non-compete type legislations in our, in our state. Um, and I think that that, that learning from the experience that clearly the FTC had would be wise. That being said, I think for the reasons that have been stated here, clearly there is this employment trap. I'm not saying that there's not an problem on the other side with the employer, but clearly there's an employment trap. But I think, I think we need to, if, if this is the way to start the ball rolling, then so be it.

Um, thank you. I, uh, I'm going to, uh, vote no on the motion, but I want to explain, I, I did, um, do a little bit of research while I was sitting here, and it does appear, um, that as of October, 2023, Maine and, and June of 2024 Maryland, those two states have passed a veterinarian based, uh, non-compete law, which surprised me. But there are two states. Um, but I, I do wanna just point out there are still 40, at least 40 states in the country where veterinarians, um, and like most professions can be, um, subject to, um, non-competes. And I, I, I just wanna, I just wanna say I I, my sympathy and, uh, my heart goes out to, to the people that we heard testify. This is not, I'm not trying to be against them, but I just, I don't think it's the proper role of government, um, to allow someone to sign a contract as an adult, as a sophisticated adult who could graduate from veterinarian school and then have the government ride in on a white horse and say, ah, your contract is now void. I just don't think that's our role. And I think that's a dangerous precedent. So I'll be voting now.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I, I am, um, learning as I'm listening, and I think that some of this probably ultimately comes down to where we fall out on who we're protecting with, with different pieces of do we allow a contract that, um, benefits a big corporation more than it benefits a little guy versus, you know, where do we all fall out on some of this thinking? I, I understand as well. The piece about is government regulation, the answer? I feel like this conversation is beyond ready to happen in this state. Um, I think that if we are willing to pass this bill out of committee, i, I will commit to all of the conversations and not to bringing something to the floor until it is a space that has less breadth to it. Um, I'm even willing right now, I'd be willing to say, uh, you know, I'd be willing to say, Ronan draft up an amendment there that says we're taking out the no solicitation, non-solicitation and, and non-disclosure pieces if it meant a smaller bite was more appetizing and less risk, uh, from a legal standpoint, sort of a piece. Um, and maybe that means we hold it in committee and, and I do the work and come back. I mean, what, whatever that ultimately ends up looking like, I really do think that this conversation is, is ready to happen in Utah. And I think that this population of professionals in particular is a safe space. There is such a dire need for the clinicians. They're not making the billions of dollars. Uh, you know, it's, it's not a Silicon Slopes deal where they're, we're looking at folks who are 15 million bucks a month sort of a deal. We're looking at people who are willing to commit to our communities and, and stay in our communities and become a part of Utah. And, and we clearly need to be having these conversations if there's three bills this session on it. So, um, I will understand the, the, where the committee comes out either way, and I'll commit to continue to working on it because I, I do think it's that important.

Vote? Yes.

Motion to adjourn. Motion to adjourn. All in favor say aye.

for me looking at, um, post-employment agreements or non-compete clauses. And the area that I specifically am addressing with this bill is that in veterinary medicine, there is a bill coming from the house, um, that is, was actually just passed unanimously outta the house that deals with human medicine. This bill is very similar to that bill, and in fact, there have been a couple pieces added, um, that would add like a coordination clause, et cetera, that I'd like to adopt that sub. But I think I'll tell you first what this bill does. This bill helps hopefully address the veterinary shortage that we're experiencing in this state. According to Utah State, Utah has 24% fewer veterinarians per capita than the national average. That makes us 42 out of 50. 24 of our 29 counties have veterinary shortages. Now, there's obviously going to be multiple strategies to address this, and I think in, in the last few years, in fact, we did, uh, get some additional funding to get additional training up at Utah State. But one of the things that I've heard from within the VE veterinary practitioner community is that a lot of them are being driven outta state by non-compete clauses that they have non-compete clause says, if you leave working for me, you can't work within x, y, z parameters. Sometimes it's a distance from the, the facility. Sometimes it's like counties, the certain counties from the facility. And we've lost a lot of really good care providers who really wanted to make Utah their home, but couldn't figure out a way with their non-compete clauses. So this bill essentially voids all new, uh, agreements that restrict veterinarians after employment by making any new, uh, non-compete agreements for veterinarians who owe more than own more than 5% of the business after May 6th. So this doesn't touch anything that's already in existence. Uh, it does also work on non-disclosure and non-solicitation agreements, which essentially helps people say things like, uh, to their clients or their customers, I'm going to a new office, my address will be blank, blank, blank. My phone number will be blank, blank, blank. And that would not be considered solicitation. And then thirdly, that they could disclose why they left the place that they were previously at if they so chose. And I've talked to some folks who just, who say, you know, there's investments that go into hiring a new professional in a business. And I don't disagree with this. And that's part of what I want to insert in the sub that I'll be introducing, is that this does not touch any other, uh, employment contractual pieces. So if you had, um, an employee coming in and you wanted to say, it's gonna take me three years to recoup the investment I've made in you, if you leave earlier, you will reimburse me. What if it were 60,000, 40,000, 20,000 for the three years along? There's still a way for employers to recoup their investment, should an employee leave early without completely knee capping 'em that they can't work at all in the field and in the community that they're in. I think one of my proudest, um, accomplishments in my profession is training my replacements. I think that all of us, if we're good at what we do, we train great people to do it. And if it turns out that they wanna go out and take care of the community as well, I think that lifts the community and lifts everyone. Uh, with that said, I'm, I'm certainly open to questions and thoughts, uh, from anyone in the body. Okay. Oh, I should move that sub. Thank you very much.

to the sub. You've, I've pretty well addressed it. Like I said, it added clarity that did not touch any other parts of contractual loss. That it would not eliminate those what we call claw back or reimburse clauses. And also that it would, um, coordinate with the healthcare, human healthcare bill should they both pass.

Thank you Mr. President Pro Timm. I rise in opposition to this bill. I believe that targeting only veterinarians with non, with a non-compete ban while allowing non-competes for similarly situated professionals, dentists, doctors, uh, CPAs, uh, lawyers could look arbitrary. And, um, I don't believe it's evidence-based. Um, I, uh, I think that non-competes are only one of a few tools that small businesses can rely on to protect their client base and recoup investment and training and mentorship when they bring on, uh, a new associate banning them. And only veterinarian medicine may accelerate exactly what you know, people don't want. And that's corporate consolidation. Uh, as larger corporate groups can absorb competitive losses and outbid Independence on salary and businesses, uh, many states that regulate non-competes do so with general rules such as income thresholds, duration, radius limits, bans on, um, all healthcare providers rather than single profession carve outs. A vet only rule is out of step with that structure singling out veterinarians when the state has left non-competes intact, or, um, for everyone else suggest inconsistent treatment of similarly situated businesses, of which is basically this legislation is picking winners and losers in that regard. Um, so we, we had a knockdown drag out fight, uh, about seven years ago, about non-competes. Uh, we changed the law to limit them to one year only. Um, I'm very comfortable with the new law, uh, well, the existing law, which is the new status quo. Um, and I I haven't heard any reason, uh, I asked the sponsor, the good sponsor who I respect and admire. You know, is there a reason why veterinarians can't understand these contracts before they sign them? They're well educated. Uh, they're smart, they're articulated. Uh, they're articulate, un unlike me. Um, and, uh, you know, if, if, if they were some type of group that needed special protections, that would be one thing, but they're quite the opposite. They're pillars of, of the community and they've, they've shown their intellectual prowess. So if they don't want to sign a non-compete, then they should, uh, either negotiate it or, or look for another job. Um, but I, I think this is just opening the door. If we pass this bill, we're gonna have 32 other professions up here next session asking for non-competes for them. Uh, I think this is, this bill will kick a hornets nest that none of us are going to enjoy. Thank you.

discussion on the bill. Uh, yes, If I may make a comment, please. Uh, go ahead. So, uh, I appreciate what Senator, um, from Bountiful said. Um, there's actually a bill that will, uh, catch more than just one industry, and that is House Bill 2 0 3 non-compete amendments where I am the floor sponsor with Representative Clancy. And it will catch those who make less than $155,000 a year. And, um, it also contains in it, uh, provisions that require that the language of the contract be clear and, and very simpl simplistic, um, because there are frankly people who, um, you know, don't know what they're signing up for or have not been careful about it. And so this is, this seeks to do that. So just wanted to, uh, you know, put that on his radar and let him know that, um, there is something that's gonna catch other, other folks. Thanks.

Thank, thank you Mr. Ps. President. So tamp, you know, I, uh, really hate non-compete clauses, period. I mean, where I live, I mean, we, we all train our competition and, and always has been. It's always been that way. Uh, I worked for a company that taught me the trade and I have taught other peoples the trade that's, we've all gone into competition. We've all done well. I, up in Plain City, one trucking company blossomed to about five or six or 20 trucking companies. It's been very successful. And I think that, uh, a lot of us don't go to college. We, that's how we do. And so I think non-compete clauses are just a waste of time in my opinion. But, uh, I think that a lot of times the person may go there and he may understand it all, but maybe his wife don't wanna live there or something, or, or, or something. And so she wants to move somewhere else, or I just can't see us not being able to compete. Like one community could be just different than the others. But anyway, I just, I'm, I'm supportive of this and so I'd encourage you to vote for it.

Yes, I rise in support of this bill too. I live in an area where we used to have seven vets, we're down to two now. We can't recruit them if they get somebody there. They have a non-compete a and so the only way to get out is they have to leave the area or the state. So I, I think that this is, this is a, a good bill to, to try to see if we can't recruit and, and somebody can come in. Senator Hinkins makes a very good point. Competition is what makes our world operate. And, and it also gives us good quality. If you perform the services, those that are good will be successful.

I'd like to add to that, you know, having, uh, two or three vets in the area, a lot of times you can't get ahold of him. And so if there's only one vet there and he's got a corner on the market, uh, it's like having a, a hospital and only having one doctor. I just think that it's good to have choices and, you know, some people may not even like your dog. You might have bit him and you don't wanna mess with it no more. And so therefore you're gonna need another bet. And if he's not around, what are you gonna do? Thanks.

Um, yeah, I actually was, uh, a yes voting committee and moved it forward and I, I, I still feel that it was the right decision, but in, in thinking through it and, and reading through the bill and in contemplation with other bills that are coming, I, I think, I'm afraid that we are in a circumstance where we are picking winners and lurs. I like the idea. I don't like non-competes. I don't like them. And I would agree with some of my other seatmates as it pertains to this, but this is for certain, picking a very specific industry and there's plenty of other industries or professions that were, would fit in this category, dentists and so on and so forth. Um, but to do it for one specific industry just seems like we're, we're going to do exactly what the good senator from Bountiful had suggested. We're gonna end up in a, in a war up here. I think a more comprehensive repo re approach is more appropriate. And even in the bill that is coming there, I have some concerns there as well on time and place and, and trying to land this in a fair place. We have done some thing in the past that I think has been appropriate. I think some more adjustments are appropriate, but this one's clearly, um, in communication with the sponsor, I, I had assumed that we were gonna roll it into one bill and this is just, ain't it.

I I do really appreciate all of, of the input and the commentary and I think that the question about why one industry is a, a good and reasonable one, I do think it's worth noting that this body has already done this for one industry. And that is for broadcasters. This was done within the last decade. I know it was Senator hammered at the time. And so I think that we have sort of said that we understand there are uniquenesses about certain spaces that may require their own touch. And I also in trying to think of how would you carve out the specifics of 300 professions and make what applies to one and apply to the other. And, and I think that there does need to be, be a bit more of a, a granular touch on these. I also did learn, which was new to me in this, that, that lawyers aren't allowed to have non-competes as they're considered unethical. And so this was something to me that I was like, wow, wouldn't that be great if all the professions felt that way and then we wouldn't have to legislate it. But since we don't have that ethical bound set up, I think in these care spaces where there is such a need and there are people who invest so much to come to our state and our communities and be part of betterment, we owe it to them not to leave them trapped in one employment situation. To make sure that if they leave early, that the, that the business they were with before has an ability to be compensated back, but to give them that free market ability to go out. And if they're the best one there, they're the one who's gonna win the competition. Um, with that, I, I would call the question,

Senator Plumb. Senator Plumb. Thank you Mr. President Pro Tem. This bill enacts, uh, a non-compete sort of a ban I would say in our veterinary medicine space. We are 24% down with 24 of our 29 counties needing veterinary medicine. There are still ways for employers to get paid back and to ensure that their investments are supported. But this bill, uh, goes hand in hand with one coming from us to from the house to us and I would encourage us to vote it through. Thank you for that presentation.

Uh, I would call the question please. And the question is, shall first substitute Senate Bill one 11 pass rule call vote.

Senator Brammer. This Is one that, uh, that we've worked on and, and we've had a lot of input from the Department of Environmental Quality to, and we've incorporated their suggestions. I think they're happy with the bill at this point. Uh, what this does is it relates to regulatory authority.

and I actually talked to my brother who's a veterinarian and has owned a clinic and he said, this is going to solve a major problem that will make it so that more veterinarians can stay in the workforce and will will get rid of that, um, problem that so many have where there's not enough docs for the workload. So I support.

Waive. Thank you.